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Chrar
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Posted - 2009.10.18 09:14:00 -
[1]
Hi there
This might already have been discussed, if so then ignore this thread.
The gap from industrials to freighters is just huge - not just in cargohold but also in skill requirements and specifically ship cost. What is missing in my opinion is a ship type to cover that gap. Industrials cover the high-sec hauling of smaller amounts, transport ships cover the low-sec part and freighters cover the hauling of very large amounts of goods. A ship covering the area around 120'000m3 to 150'000m3 would be very welcome IMO. What's floating around my mind looks like this:
- 120'000m3 to 150'000m3 cargohold fully fitted / rigged (3 rig slots, 5-6 low slots, 2-4 mid slots, no high slot) - medium cost, around 60m - slightly more survivability than an industrial (25% more shield / armor), but at the same time slower and bulkier (takes more time to align) - possibly the requirement of having advanced spaceship command in addition to industrials (of any faction) at lvl 5 - manufactured by ORE (as to only have to create one type of ship instead of one for each faction)
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Alizandro Goderaski
Broski Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.18 10:02:00 -
[2]
Call them Medium Freighters, give each race two variants 1st tier would be the kind of hauler you're describing. 2nd tier would be a freighter with a ship hangar that has... lets say, 600km3 space. Enough to fit a battleship inside.
Give them some fluff. Say the first tier Caldari Medium Freighters were made by Kaalakiota to ship war supplies into the border lands. 2nd tier Gallente M Freighters would be made by Roden Shipyards to transport warships to this and that place etc.
It'll give me something to rp about.
I'm tired, so yeah sorry if my ideas seem lacking in description. Fill in the blanks for me. Still think it's a great idea. Thumbs up.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:40:00 -
[3]
This was already discussed, two years ago. Which is why we now have Orcas in the game, which fit your specs almost exactly.
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Chrar
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:33:00 -
[4]
Not really. The Orca is a support ship for mining operations.
What I'd like to have is a hauler, that requires hauling skills and not mining leadership skills. See it as a large industrial or a small freighter, whatever you prefer. It can move around things but it won't boost other people's output in any way - and therefore it wouldn't require one to train skills totally useless for hauling. That's also why it wouldn't cost you some 250m ISK, it would be more in line with transport ships or slightly below in terms of cost.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.18 19:20:00 -
[5]
it seems to be popping up over and over again. the orca is the ship your are looking for. that it gives nice mining bonuses is nice on top.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.10.18 19:29:00 -
[6]
It's a dual-role ship. One of the roles is the small freighter, almost exactly as you outlined. The other role is mining support. It does both well. Throwing another ship into the same niche would be silly - the Orca was designed to fill it, and they did a good job with it. Just because it takes funny skills doesn't mean it's not the ship you're asking for.
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Alizandro Goderaski
Minmatar Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.10.18 22:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Alizandro Goderaski on 18/10/2009 22:03:41 I think it'd be great if there was a 120km3 hauling ship in addition to the orca. It wouldn't hurt the game, and "There's the orca already" isn't that great of an argument unless you're arguing from the standpoint that you hate having diversity in the game.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.10.19 01:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alizandro Goderaski I think it'd be great if there was a 120km3 hauling ship in addition to the orca. It wouldn't hurt the game, and "There's the orca already" isn't that great of an argument unless you're arguing from the standpoint that you hate having diversity in the game.
What diversity? An Orca fits between 77500 m3 and 140951 m3, depending on fit, plus 50000 m3 of ore. Sounds quite a lot like "120km3" to me. In order for it to be diverse, it has to actually be different.
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Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.10.19 02:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Zaknussem on 19/10/2009 02:02:34
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Alizandro Goderaski I think it'd be great if there was a 120km3 hauling ship in addition to the orca. It wouldn't hurt the game, and "There's the orca already" isn't that great of an argument unless you're arguing from the standpoint that you hate having diversity in the game.
What diversity? An Orca fits between 77500 m3 and 140951 m3, depending on fit, plus 50000 m3 of ore. Sounds quite a lot like "120km3" to me. In order for it to be diverse, it has to actually be different.
The "difference" you are harping on about is to be able to haul one General Freight Container, whose volume is 120km3. The Orca cannot carry a GFC because it's carrying capacity is divided between two cargo holds.
I'm pretty certain that the requests made two years ago specifically requested that the "mini-freighter" was to be able to haul one such container. The Orca can't. Therefore the demand for a genuine mini-freighter still stands. The Orca "almost" does the job, but since it doesn't do the job fully the proposal lives on. |
Mr DurkaDur
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Posted - 2009.10.19 02:54:00 -
[10]
I agree Chrar, thats a great idea. Besides the Orca has 80k of basic cargo space, with 400k specificly for ships, and 50k specificly for ore. My suggestion for the skills needed are: -Spaceship Command Level 5 -[Racial] Industrial Level 5 Also for the cargo, 140k - 160k of cargo space would be nice. Finally the cost should be about 60 mil - 90 mil so its not too cheap and about a sixth of an Orca's cost(377,000,000 isk in Amarr).
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2009.10.19 03:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zaknussem Edited by: Zaknussem on 19/10/2009 02:02:34
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Alizandro Goderaski I think it'd be great if there was a 120km3 hauling ship in addition to the orca. It wouldn't hurt the game, and "There's the orca already" isn't that great of an argument unless you're arguing from the standpoint that you hate having diversity in the game.
What diversity? An Orca fits between 77500 m3 and 140951 m3, depending on fit, plus 50000 m3 of ore. Sounds quite a lot like "120km3" to me. In order for it to be diverse, it has to actually be different.
The "difference" you are harping on about is to be able to haul one General Freight Container, whose volume is 120km3. The Orca cannot carry a GFC because it's carrying capacity is divided between two cargo holds.
I'm pretty certain that the requests made two years ago specifically requested that the "mini-freighter" was to be able to haul one such container. The Orca can't. Therefore the demand for a genuine mini-freighter still stands. The Orca "almost" does the job, but since it doesn't do the job fully the proposal lives on.
let me ask you something.
whats the point of carrying 1 freight container?
unlike other containers, it isnt larger on the inside.
proof and even if it was, the orca is larger then 120,000m3 anyway.
the only point of GFC's in a freighter is to organize stuff, otherwise most freighter holds end up a mess.
if your hold can only take 1 GFC, you might as well not use it.
the Luminare titan: lets pop that *****! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1175042&page=1 |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.10.19 06:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto What diversity? An Orca fits between 77500 m3 and 140951 m3, depending on fit, plus 50000 m3 of ore. Sounds quite a lot like "120km3" to me. In order for it to be diverse, it has to actually be different.
The "difference" you are harping on about is to be able to haul one General Freight Container, whose volume is 120km3. The Orca cannot carry a GFC because it's carrying capacity is divided between two cargo holds.
I'm pretty certain that the requests made two years ago specifically requested that the "mini-freighter" was to be able to haul one such container. The Orca can't. Therefore the demand for a genuine mini-freighter still stands. The Orca "almost" does the job, but since it doesn't do the job fully the proposal lives on.
Who cares? I fly a real freighter and I don't touch GFC's. They're worthless for anyone who isn't trying to organize corporate hauling, and even then, couriers work better. "Carry one GFC" is a measure of size, and the Orca meets that measure. If your goal is to haul physical GFCs from one place to another...well, I suppose I could tell you to fly a real freighter, but really I'd just tell you to find something worthwhile to do with your time. Nobody hauls GFCs from point A to point B intentionally, so the fact that the Orca can't is utterly irrelevant. It hauls as much stuff as a GFC fits, which is the whole point. Just because people phrased their desires around the assumption of it only having one cargo bay instead of three does not mean that the Orca fails at its role of being a small freighter. Quite the contrary, really - it carries significantly more than its proponents asked for.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.19 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mr DurkaDur I agree Chrar, thats a great idea. Besides the Orca has 80k of basic cargo space, with 400k specificly for ships, and 50k specificly for ore. My suggestion for the skills needed are: -Spaceship Command Level 5 -[Racial] Industrial Level 5 Also for the cargo, 140k - 160k of cargo space would be nice. Finally the cost should be about 60 mil - 90 mil so its not too cheap and about a sixth of an Orca's cost(377,000,000 isk in Amarr).
the orca has (with lvl4) 40k m¦ corp hangar (seems you missed that) 79k m¦ cargo bay 50k m¦ ore hangar. 400k m¦ ships.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.19 14:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 19/10/2009 14:33:21
Originally by: Mr DurkaDur I agree Chrar, thats a great idea. Besides the Orca has 80k of basic cargo space, with 400k specificly for ships, and 50k specificly for ore. My suggestion for the skills needed are: -Spaceship Command Level 5 -[Racial] Industrial Level 5 Also for the cargo, 140k - 160k of cargo space would be nice. Finally the cost should be about 60 mil - 90 mil so its not too cheap and about a sixth of an Orca's cost(377,000,000 isk in Amarr).
1. With those skill requirements, you've already trained for a freighter, pretty much (just need Advanced Spaceship Command Lvl 1). You've very nearly trained for a transport ship; just a couple more days for Industry V.
So for skill requirements, you're not getting anything "in between" a freighter and industrial/transport ship.
2. You don't set the price. CCP doesn't set the price. They can set the mineral requirements, but the economy sets the price.
2a. Your 60 - 90 Mil price tag is what transport ships cost. It is not "in between" freighters and transport ships.
2b. An Orca's cost is already about 1/2 - 2/3 the cost of a freighter. It is the in between ship you are looking for.
3. An Orca fully fitted has 128km3 of cargo space. That's going off the old data on the Item Database here on the site of basic 30k. If the basic cargo space in the game is actually at 80k now that is much more.
So even not looking at the corporate hanger and the ore bay, you've already hit your target mark for the amount of cargo the Orca can carry. The Orca can also carry a BS or two, while we're at it, so yes, the Orca is the ship you are looking for.
And yes, "there's already the Orca" is a good argument. Just like when people try to ask for T2 shuttles, and we point out that we have frigates and interceptors. When you are asking for a new ship class it needs to fit some sort of nitch or need that we don't already have. Otherwise you aren't asking for diversity, but you are asking for murkiness.
What you really are asking for is to reduce the cost and skill training of the Orca and maybe give it a bit more cargo space. You won't get far just begging to reduce your cost.
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Irongut
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.19 14:47:00 -
[15]
It's called the Orca. Yes the Orca is a mining support ship but it also costs half the cost of a freighter (so fills the cost gap) and hauls the amount of cargo you're talking about. It's also very good in that role so we don't need another one.
Also... The skill reqs of a freighter over a transport are negligable. Your suggested cost of 60m is laughable, have you looked at the price of transports and freighters?
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:29:00 -
[16]
The only real advantage the Orca has over a freighter is a the higher warp speed. EHP is lower, as is cargo - understandably. However, even the align time (with expander in low) is almost as slow as a freighter. With my skills its a mere 2sec according to EFT.
So if I need to carry 120K, what advantage does the orca really have? |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:41:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 19/10/2009 17:43:06
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind The only real advantage the Orca has over a freighter is a the higher warp speed. EHP is lower, as is cargo - understandably. However, even the align time (with expander in low) is almost as slow as a freighter. With my skills its a mere 2sec according to EFT.
So if I need to carry 120K, what advantage does the orca really have?
Actually, from the stats I'm reading, the Orca doesn't have a higher warp speed.
However, the Orca aligns 2/3 as slowly as a frieghter, so not twice as fast, but almost.
The Orca also has a lot less mass. The freighter has a lower intertia modifier, which helps the align time in comparison to the Orca, but the lower mass of the Orca means it can get up to speed faster.
The freighters give a bonus to velocity for each level, which means it actually takes more time to get up to 75% to warp than at a lower level. The Orca doesn't have that problem.
Finally, you can fit and rig an Orca. You can't fit anything to a freighter, so you have some more freedom there to fit for faster delivery vs. cargo hold size.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:52:00 -
[18]
Dretzle, please get the facts right:
freighter warp speed 0.75AU/s orca warp speed 2.7AU/s
1.95AU/s is a huge difference. if you ask me.
about the align time: my alt has 38.5s time to warp with a cargo rigged (t1) and cargo expanded (t2) orca. the same alt in the freighter has 45.2s.
45.2s-38.5s=6.7s faster alignment. doh!
oh and if you web both of them, they are into warp in less than 2-5s! doh! (team work rocks btw.)
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:57:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 19/10/2009 17:58:10
Originally by: darius mclever Dretzle, please get the facts right:
freighter warp speed 0.75AU/s orca warp speed 2.7AU/s
1.95AU/s is a huge difference. if you ask me.
about the align time: my alt has 38.5s time to warp with a cargo rigged (t1) and cargo expanded (t2) orca. the same alt in the freighter has 45.2s.
45.2s-38.5s=6.7s faster alignment. doh!
oh and if you web both of them, they are into warp in less than 2-5s! doh! (team work rocks btw.)
Please forgive me. I don't have the Eve Client on my current machine, so I'm working off of data only available from the database dump, as utilized on eveiverse.com, which is apparently out of date. It showed them both as 1 AU/s. EDIT: I also didn't see the warp speed multiplier stat, but even with that I think my Orca warp speed is still off.
The Item Database on this site doesn't even have the warp speed listed, that I could see. But you further helped show the advantages of the Orca as a hauler.
Also, I did forget to mention that Advanced Spaceship Command skill gives a bit of an increase to freighter align time that the Orca doesn't have, which allows the freighter to come more in line with the Orca for alignment.
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2009.10.19 19:48:00 -
[20]
Still want. If the Orca is such a great mini freighter, then maybe we can make a compromize? How about we remove all the mining prereqs? I we can do that, then we have a solution and everybody's happy (actually no, I want somehting a bit faster and more agile, but I'm willing to compromize if you are).
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.10.19 19:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Fille Balle Still want. If the Orca is such a great mini freighter, then maybe we can make a compromize? How about we remove all the mining prereqs? I we can do that, then we have a solution and everybody's happy (actually no, I want somehting a bit faster and more agile, but I'm willing to compromize if you are).
you arent really crying about less than 30days training time are you? besides it wouldnt make sense. the orca is a 2 roles ship. and the 2nd role requires the mining part.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.19 20:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fille Balle Still want. If the Orca is such a great mini freighter, then maybe we can make a compromize? How about we remove all the mining prereqs? I we can do that, then we have a solution and everybody's happy (actually no, I want somehting a bit faster and more agile, but I'm willing to compromize if you are).
Sure.
Why stop there? I would like to train it when I start the game and for it to be the most agile ship in the game.
Oh wait, those are called frigates.
In other words, we've already made a compromise. It's called the Orca. The compromise is you get what you want with a little wonky skill requirements for your purposes. There's a drawback for everything.
I could go for the largest freighter in the game (the Charon) in one shot by training Caldari Industrial 5. Or I could go for the largest Industrial in the game (Mammoth and Itty V), but have to cross train to Caldari if I wanted the largest freighter. I could go straight for a freighter, or have to train a bit differently if I really want an medium freighter/Orca.
Get a freighter or transport ship otherwise. The training difference between an industrial and a freighter isn't huge and between a transport ship and a freighter is teeny.
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Comodore John
Gallente Xennon Industria LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
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Posted - 2009.10.19 21:33:00 -
[23]
Use an Orca.
Now, as per the freighter vs. Orca align time argument, an Orca aligns faster with base stats, but add in Advanced Spaceship Command V and racial freighter 4 and your freighter align nearly as fast as an orca. Of course, when you add in cargo expanders (or I-stabs for align), the gap closes very quickly.
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Celebrain
1st Steps Academy Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.04 07:58:00 -
[24]
FYI, found this post via a search... if eveiverse.com has incorrect data, it's most likely due to CCP giving incorrect data in their data dump (or not giving me updates frequently enough). Never the less, tell me anyway, in case there's some way I'm munging it incorrectly instead... I'd rather have the site correct when possible, of course.
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Kelli Sunweaver
Minmatar United Minmatar Nation Industries Rising Phoenix Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.08 09:05:00 -
[25]
The Orca fits the role your asking for. Yes it is a mining ship and requires skill to get into. But it's also a very good cargo carrier. I use my ORCA for EVERYTHING from mining to running ships and mods all over EVE. I don't need another industrial type ship to train for when the ones that are in game are sufficent. Idea not supported !
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.08 12:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind The only real advantage the Orca has over a freighter is a the higher warp speed. EHP is lower, as is cargo - understandably. However, even the align time (with expander in low) is almost as slow as a freighter. With my skills its a mere 2sec according to EFT.
So if I need to carry 120K, what advantage does the orca really have?
You can fit an Orca. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
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