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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Lady Aja
Caldari Interspatial Logistics Rogue Elements.
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Posted - 2009.10.18 11:54:00 -
[1]
Skills Hacking will now have the following prerequisites: Science level 3 (from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 2( from level 5), Electronics level 1 (from level 2) and Engineering level 1 ( from level 2) Archaeology will now have the following prerequisites Science lev 3( from level 5), Survey level 3 (from level 5) and Electronics level 1 Salvaging will now have the following prerequisites Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering level 1 Cloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics lev 4 ( was 5) High Speed Maneuvering will now have Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) Tactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4) Trajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5) Bomb Deployment has Missile Bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5) Mining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4) Thermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4 You can no longer inject skills if they cannot be added to the end of the training queue immediately.
What on earth was you guys thinking?
dumbing down eve YET again FTL! if you was not reading this right now? what would you be doing instead of reading my sig?
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.18 12:09:00 -
[2]
Pompous would approve, more noobs getting blown up :)
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CCP Lemur
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Posted - 2009.10.18 13:36:00 -
[3]
I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb? You still have to have the same wits and insights to be successful. The skill injection part was true since the beginning because you need the prereqs trained for a skill to be injected.
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ark maphar
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Posted - 2009.10.18 14:37:00 -
[4]
AWESOME, now i dont have to wait forever to be able to hack and analyze!
thank you ccp!
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2009.10.18 14:48:00 -
[5]
Actually, archaeology and hacking was a professions, and i beleive they should have a level 5 req.
Also, survey lvl 5 is now completely useless, wasted SPs.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.10.18 15:00:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb? You still have to have the same wits and insights to be successful. The skill injection part was true since the beginning because you need the prereqs trained for a skill to be injected.
Now on TQ:
2 people start at same time. One trains science5 , survey 5 etc. to become "explorer". Other guy trains tactical shield manip, gunnery skills (trajectory analysis) etc to become "soldier" type of guy. After 1-2 months both of them are good in their own profession, but cant do other. So when they decide to run some exploration they ask each other to join their forces and to actually do something as a TEAM. Because solo neither of them will be able to do anything.
Now on SISI (and later on TQ): 2 people start at same time. Both of them train same skills because it takes half of the time. After 1-2 months they both have same skillset so can happily sit in newbcorp and continue doing their stuff solo because they actually dont need any help to do anything. Thus they continue to play "solo" in multiplayer game. As a result they "tried a bit of everything after 7 months and quit game" (thats from general discussions forums).
Difference? Current system promotes specialisation, chosing your path and teamwork. New system promotes training a bit of everything, doing stuff solo (you dont NEED another person to do same stuff). You try to promote teamwork (NPC corp tax, forcing people to create corps etc) and at the same time another change promotes solo work.
So yeah - its counterproductive change.
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Dan Grobag
Caldari French Empire Squad
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Posted - 2009.10.18 15:06:00 -
[7]
I think this is a very good step. Back in the day there were way less skills to train to start being of a use with other people. Now, there are many many long skills that if you don't have them will handicap your ability to enjoy the game.
A skill should be here to give you an advantage in the area you specialized, not to exlude you if you didn't throwed a whole month in it.
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Sajeera
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Posted - 2009.10.18 15:19:00 -
[8]
I dont mind if newbies can use cloaks, mwds or some other basic stuff sooner then i was able to. The gap between old players and newbies is extremely huge anyway. You need months and months of training just to be considered viable by some 0.0 alliance or corp and this is a big turn down for all the new players. But the exploration thingy.....meh.
I was low sec and 0.0 solo explorer before the great dumbing of exploration that came with apocrypha. I did very well and had great fun but it wasn't easy to get there.There was needed knowledge and lots of trained skills to be successful.
This all ended for me with the expansion, where everybody and his brother got the new easy to fit launcher and went shooting probes everywhere. The exploration become so easy that even miners started to fit launchers "for da lulz" and to scan for grav sites.
And now it will became even more easy...
The old school explorers, with dedicated ships and cargo bays full of probes, traveling like ghosts through low sec and 0.0 for days just to get to the high sec markets finally and sell their hard earned loot .... are no more.
They stepped their place to a hungry crowd, armed with 15cpu core probe launchers, shooting probes everywhere and scanning down everything under 5mins.
I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise.
I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate.
All those moments will be lost in time....like tears in rain.
Time....to die.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.10.18 15:48:00 -
[9]
Nothing is being dumbed down. Or is someone suggesting it takes RL skills and intelligence to wait while your SP count achieves a certain limit. The barrier of entry is being reduced and it has its downsides, but that isn't what dumbing down is.
Originally by: PeHD0M Actually, archaeology and hacking was a professions, and i beleive they should have a level 5 req.
Also, survey lvl 5 is now completely useless, wasted SPs.
I think they should be brought down. The entry skill level to such basic professions should be kept low. That said, no skill level should be useless, but from what I see they aren't. The extra training just makes you do the same thing more efficiently just like in all other areas. You just have to consider, if the training is worth the extra 5%.
Low entry level barriers are just fine as long as there is dept and progression in the system. That doesn't have to be only skill dependant, so players with RL skills, friends and courage can progress faster then people sitting in station and waiting for skills to finish. By bringing more people into this, it might be easier to justify putting more development resources into these professions.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: PeHD0M on 18/10/2009 16:06:14 What if next time they will change requirements for hacs from lvl V cruiser to IV because it is long to train?
What the point to spend time on learning something long, if i'm not sure they will not nerf the skill req. in the next expansion?
Survey skill was only useful, because it was prereq. for archeology. Also i've trained "Electronics Upgrades" to V because of Hacking.
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:16:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 18/10/2009 16:16:13
Originally by: Sajeera I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise.
I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate.
All those moments will be lost in time....like tears in rain.
Time....to die.
Get a life. -- Eventus stultorum magister. |
Gneeznow
Minmatar Ship spinners inc
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:17:00 -
[12]
I've no issue with it, its good that newbies will be able to use some cooler stuff earlier
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:27:00 -
[13]
Since one wants pretty much all those prerequisite skills maxed out sooner rather than later, allowing more advanced skills earlier merely increases accessibility.
You will lose nothing other than seeing younger pilots using modules earlier in their careers than you did.
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Clone 514
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:36:00 -
[14]
OP has been dumbed down
I like those changes. Opens up those professions faster for the beginners. Reduce astrometric pinpointing requirement too from astrometrics 4 to 3
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:46:00 -
[15]
yes, it is "dumbing down" the game somewhat
skills that required some lvl 5 skills before were a decision to train or not to train and focus elsewhere, with lvl 4 as requirement that choice becomes essentially a no-brainer, thus it is dumbing down the game by eliminating choice
also it is harsh to the people who specialized in the affected skills as some of the lvl 5 they had to train are pretty useless in themselves
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Talsha Talamar
Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 18/10/2009 16:16:13
Originally by: Sajeera I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise. I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate. All those moments will be lost in time....like tears in rain. Time....to die.
Get a life.
Get a movie dictionary... It was actually pretty awesome :)
I have much sympathy for the expressed sentiment. Old school exploration was fun, painful but fun.
For quite some time I thought to have found my calling. Probing in syndicate 0.0 or empire lowsec, the cat and mouse with the local reds, brought quite some tense moments and social interaction.
Yeah sure the reds are still out there, but everyone can scan down a site so quickly now and the signal strength cover from deadspace sites is gone, so that the risk reward scheme really dipped to far to the site of the hunters.
I find no pleasure in pew pew just for pew pews sake. Violence is always a mean to some goal. So I never moved to lowsec or 0.0 in search for targets and always tried to evade combat.
Some would call that carebear. I call it simply call it risk awareness. Carebearism is defined by risk avoidance, defined by choosing the most optimal route to reach ones target.
With the upcoming changes to cloaking, overheating and exploration, there will be even less income from exploration sites and an even improved risk for the explorer outside of highsec.
After already enabling every noob pirate to be able to probe like a pro, this change will give them more easily: a) further motivation to hunt explorer by enabling them to access to phat loot on site, b) cloaking for free c) overheating without any tangible time investment.
So in the end there will be even fewer people active in lowsec that follow any activity, besides pirating. *shrugs* Oh well I am still in longterm stasis anyways :)
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Jonna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:13:00 -
[17]
If someone does not have the patience to train a rank 1 and a rank 2 skill to lvl 5 to get to hacking, is exploration the right choice for him?
On the other hand, if you like to continue this path, I'd like to have Astrometric Rangefinding reduced to a rank 5 skill, Astrometric Pinpointing to a rank 3 skill. Also please let me use T2 salvagers, codebreakers and analysers at lvl 4 of the skill. Come on, I could spend the time training for that skills much better in training for combat skills.
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Captain Vampire
Caldari None of us are free
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:14:00 -
[18]
What I don't like is the cloaking prerequisite change. It will now be possible to make cloaking alts twice as fast as before, making cloaksky local huggers even easier to obtain.
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Thenoran
Caldari Pelican.
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE.
It's dumbing down EVE in the form of not having to specialize or put any real effort into Exploration now. With those skill changes you can start probing down sites after like two days in EVE. Although that in itself may seem good, it would be similar to dumbing down the Raven's requirements so new players can run lvl 4 missions straight off the bat.
For a lot of things in EVE you have to put effort into something if you want to be good at it. Mining doesn't require a lot of user input, but it does require some dedication if you want to fly a Hulk. Mainly in the form of having to get Astrogeology and Mining Barge to V.
If those were reduced to Astrogeology III and Mining Barge III for a Hulk, that would be terrible. Everyone and their dog (more so than now) would get a Hulk after a day or two and the macrominers would be everywhere.
Since the new Exploration system was added, it's my honest opinion that CCP has been working feverishly to make it stupidly easy and fast to get to even the hardest sites. The old system was flawed yes, but at the very least it required dedication and patience if you wanted to get your hands on that shiny BPC or Deadspace module.
Now you can scan down even the hardest sites in a matter of minutes. No effort required, no specialization needed. You just train it for a week and you're good to go.
I might be exaggerating a bit, but Exploration seems to moving more and more away from being a true profession with rewards in the form of Radar, Magnetometric, Gravimetric and other sites, to something everyone can do after one whole week worth of training.
And that, is dumbing down EVE.
If you want to Explore, you should train for it and put some effort into it, just like everything else in EVE. To me it's equal to putting the requirements for a Marauder down to AWU IV and BS IV, since you've already stated "How is less waiting making it any easier". Well...a lot actually.
Time spent training is worth a lot...actually...
I have nothing against newer players being given more options, but find another way rather than just reducing skill requirements. The only skill requirement I may possibly agree with is reducing the Astrogeology V requirement for a Covetor to IV. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 18/10/2009 16:16:13
Originally by: Sajeera I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise.
I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate.
All those moments will be lost in time....like tears in rain.
Time....to die.
Get a life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMb11k0K3E
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.10.18 18:10:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 18/10/2009 18:17:16
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb? You still have to have the same wits and insights to be successful.
You are essentially taking away CONSEQUENCES. You take away what makes EVE so special.. this is a sandbox with choices - choices with consequences. If you lower those consequences, the choices being made loose their meaning, their importance. If I choose to be an explorer I decided against being a trader, miner or whatever.
Exploration was introduced as a PROFESSION. Professions in Eve are Mining, Mission Running, Trading, Mercenary, Pirating, etc pp. .. and one of them was Exploring. It was something people who did it, identified with. You took this away from them. I was proud to roam low sec as an explorer on my search for these fancy, hard to pinpoint sites. I was proud needing some real skill for placing inflight-bookmarks to get the probes at places for the following - admittedly - tedious scanning. You took part of THAT pride away from me and many others by introducing the new scanning mechanics.
But ok.. I just explored w-space.. with those many sigs in there it again was some kind of art to identify the right ones, until you removed that also.. less sigs.
But ok.. exploration is a profession. Not all can do what I can do. They made their choices, I mine.. I'm an explorer. Now you lower the skillrequs for this so called profession and thus kill it with it. Exploration isn't a profession anymore.. its a skillset like engineering or flying a shuttle. Nothing special. No consequences.
While your at it.. why don't you remove the whole skillsystem alltogether? "It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb?" Remove the skills completely I say. It's just stringent followed your own statement.. Why waiting 2 months until flying a Battleship? Why waiting 6 months training skills for flying a Marauder? Why waiting 1 year for a titan if you can fly it 10minutes after creating your character? Why decide if you want to be a miner or a missionrunner or a trader? Why decide if you like missiles over murrets? Why decide shieldtanking over armortanking? Why decide between Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar or Gallente?
You know why you don't do that? Look what happend on that all-lvl5-skills on Sisi lately.. It's DUMB. It's fast. It will kill GOALS, meaning, consequences and pride. If all can do all, you remove diversity. And if you remove diversity you introduce monoculture. Do you really want that?
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Contralto
GCHQ
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Posted - 2009.10.18 18:33:00 -
[22]
Well said, CCP hope you understand what this guy is saying!
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Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
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Posted - 2009.10.18 19:07:00 -
[23]
The only thing that bothers me about this change is the number of people who say ridiculous things like that nerfing the prereqs for hacking is akin to nerfing the skills to get into a t2 ship. Get over yourselves.
In eve there's a handful of professions most people choose from when it comes to making money, for mining, you need... well a ship with a mining laser to get started. For missions you need... well a ship with a not-so-mining laser Pirating and trade require a bit more, but in those instances you're competing against much older players so that's to be expected, but even still, skillwise they can be viable very early on if you know what you're doing.
What makes exploration so special? Why should there be multiple lvl 5 prereqs for the basic hacking and archaeology mods? Training those skills to 5 still gives an advantage, but removing them from the prereq list makes it possible to try out making money off of exploration to see if you like it before investing months worth of training time into it, you know, like every other profession in eve. You might not be very good at anything early on, but you always have the ability to try stuff out to see if you want to specialize in it.
If I had to guess I'd say CCP's doing this for different reasons though, it's no big secret that they've been trying to move away from the static manner in which things are done in eve now(just look at Wspace), and I have a sneaking suspicion that the sov changes in dominion are going to nudge people towards plexs rather than belts for their isk making (somewhere in the dev blog about new sov there's specific mention of system upgrades adding more plexs and whatnot) |
Micky Nozawa
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Posted - 2009.10.18 19:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 18/10/2009 16:16:13
Originally by: Sajeera I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Deadspace ships on fire off the shoulder of Black Rise.
I watched sift probes glitter in the dark near the EvE gate.
All those moments will be lost in time....like tears in rain.
Time....to die.
Get a life.
I believe that exploration was dumbed down especially because of people like you to be able finally to get a grasp on it ..... dumbass
Tears in rain
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Emperor Salazar
Caldari Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.18 19:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CCP Lemur I fail to see how this is dumbing down EVE. It is at most less time spent waiting for skills. How is less waiting making it any easier or your words less undumb? You still have to have the same wits and insights to be successful. The skill injection part was true since the beginning because you need the prereqs trained for a skill to be injected.
look how dumb you are
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.18 20:01:00 -
[26]
Oveur said something about a new goal: 600.000 subscribers. But instead of concentrating on keeping the old players, CCP tries to makes Eve more and more comfortable for newcomers.
In the last few years there were hardly any new skills to improve existing fields. Vets are getting bored after having specialised in one field after 1-2 years, since they can't improve anymore. According to an old devblog, the average Eve players stays subscribed for 7 months. CCP should concentrate on that, give people enough room for improvement, soft skillcaps or additional specialisation layers with diminishing return, instead of ignoring the Vets and making everything easier for potential newcomers.
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Kuzya Morozov
Gallente Stir Crazy Research and Manufacturing Wicked Nation
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Posted - 2009.10.18 20:12:00 -
[27]
This thread is full of delicious tears.
When you needed to train for it, you cried about how high the skill requirements were. Now that you've got it trained, you don't want anyone else having it easier than you.
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Jonna Red
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Posted - 2009.10.18 20:57:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jonna Red on 18/10/2009 21:01:32 Edited by: Jonna Red on 18/10/2009 20:58:00
Originally by: Cambarus
In eve there's a handful of professions most people choose from when it comes to making money, for mining, you need... well a ship with a mining laser to get started. For missions you need... well a ship with a not-so-mining laser Pirating and trade require a bit more, but in those instances you're competing against much older players so that's to be expected, but even still, skillwise they can be viable very early on if you know what you're doing.
What makes exploration so special? Why should there be multiple lvl 5 prereqs for the basic hacking and archaeology mods? Training those skills to 5 still gives an advantage, but removing them from the prereq list makes it possible to try out making money off of exploration to see if you like it before investing months worth of training time into it, you know, like every other profession in eve. You might not be very good at anything early on, but you always have the ability to try stuff out to see if you want to specialize in it.
Except you can do Exploration in a noob ship and the onboard scanner. Yes, that is the lowest limit to start exploration for anomalies, you will not be able to finish them, but you also will not earn millions of isk with a noob ship and civilian mining lasers on it.
So you want more? Train the Astrometric skill and skill for a T1 probe frig. With a core probe launcher you can now find Anomalies much faster and locate now even cosmic signatures.
Train more skills, get a cov ops ships, locate signatures with lower strength, get more potentially rewards for that. If you want to have all the goodies you need to train all the stuff. I didn't have a problem with this. Others in my corp didn't bother training survey to V. When they now find an Archeology side, they ask me if i can hack it. We split the rewards, perfect teamwork. Guess what, that will not work anymore. I will continue running my exploration sides, as everyone else, but alone. The only interaction we get is by combat probes on the scanner.
Edits: With Hacking and Archeology you are specialized in your field. You can happily run Gravimetric and combat sides all they long with exploration.
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Don Pellegrino
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Posted - 2009.10.18 21:19:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 18/10/2009 21:20:23 I like Eve compared to other MMOs because you have to put efforts to get something. I had to do a lot of difficult choices since the day I started, thinking which skill is going to help me the most considering the required training time. It's all those details that allowed me to get over 100 kills in just a few months: I calculated everything, I made the right choices and my efforts helped me to become better.
Having stuff without effort isn't how you will keep your players. Other MMOs die when their older players can't get anythingand don't have any challenge anymore. Eve will still be there for many years because the players have goals and are willing to work to reach their objective.
Right now, I want to be able to use T2 sentry drones, but I don't want the required skill level to be dropped to 4 (even if it would allow me to use them right now). Do you understand what I mean? Even before I was able to overload, I did NOT want the required skill level to be 4 instead of 5. I wanted to deserve it.
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General Meridus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.18 23:47:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Now on TQ:
2 people start at same time. One trains science5 , survey 5 etc. to become "explorer". Other guy trains tactical shield manip, gunnery skills (trajectory analysis) etc to become "soldier" type of guy. After 1-2 months both of them are good in their own profession, but cant do other. So when they decide to run some exploration they ask each other to join their forces and to actually do something as a TEAM. Because solo neither of them will be able to do anything.
Now on SISI (and later on TQ): 2 people start at same time. Both of them train same skills because it takes half of the time. After 1-2 months they both have same skillset so can happily sit in newbcorp and continue doing their stuff solo because they actually dont need any help to do anything. Thus they continue to play "solo" in multiplayer game. As a result they "tried a bit of everything after 7 months and quit game" (thats from general discussions forums).
Difference? Current system promotes specialisation, chosing your path and teamwork. New system promotes training a bit of everything, doing stuff solo (you dont NEED another person to do same stuff). You try to promote teamwork (NPC corp tax, forcing people to create corps etc) and at the same time another change promotes solo work.
So yeah - its counterproductive change.
This is one of the major things that ruined Ultima Online. Changes were made that made it such that a player needed no one to play effectively. Player interaction tanked. Specialisation does increase player teamwork. Such changes are hard or impossible to reverse. Something to consider when thinking about the long term goals of your game.
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