How about this... Don't harass the noobs doing the sister's of eve epic, grow a set, and fight people who can and will fight back?

Yeah, screw the rules, right?

Rules are for the small minds that need them.

Wait. What?

If I don't know what the rules are, how am I supposed to know if I'm breaking them?

Dumbest.

Post.

Ever.

This thread is ridiculous.

We know nothing about the situation at hand. We don't know how noobish these guys were
and we don't know what exactly happened. We don't even have chatlogs.

We have the suspicion of a questonable mindset regarding people and their playstyle towards noobs.

In before the Lock.

So you think the worms are can baiting veterans? Not rocket science nor mysticism to figure out their mindset.

If I don't know what the rules are, how am I supposed to know if I'm breaking them?

Not just can baiting - we have either pirates or griefers ninjalooting quest items - as well as getting first aggro on mission rats.
Frustrates new players to no end especially since we all know it's older more experienced and higher SP skilled pilots doing it, and obviously have better ships and mods than newer players, so yeah, bloodbath.

PvP is a fight; griefing on noobs is just, yeah, griefing. They don't play Battleclinic / killboard decoration like some pirate who gets a lame newbie or miner gank killmail every 5-30 minutes or so.

Folks, we were all once new to this game - don't forget that.

No, all i'm saying that this thread is ridiculous.

I just want clarification on current rules that are being enforced that aren't posted anywhere as being rules.

If you got a ban or a warning, you know what you're doing is against the rules.

They haven't been made clear to you now? If you got a ban or a warning, you know what you're doing is against the rules.

GǪexcept that he doesn't know what he was doing that was against the rules because the things he was doing are quite explicitly not against the rules.

Sorry, but if what he did got him a ban or a warning, it seems you've been ganked by reality.

Ignorance is no excuse and whatnot.

I like this, CCPs unsaid rules. These losers need to adapt and HTFU.

All I'm saying is that I think it's reasonable for players to ask for a re-hash of the "official" unofficial official not-written-in-stone rules GM's are following du jour.

If we don't have a CCP tag, we cannot know about shifts in policy.

Unless we ask.

This thread should stay up and it deserves legitimate attention.

Shoot first ask questions latter might bring consequences at some point

Yep there's one that seems clear now, don't mess with noobs in noob systems, yey !! finally !!

How about this... Don't harass the noobs doing the sister's of eve epic, grow a set, and fight people who can and will fight back?

The problem here is that they asked first, and the answer has been known for many many years, so the shot came much later.

GǪexcept that this wasn't in a newbie system. So that rule doesn't apply.

I don't see any problem about this.

You don't see a problem with people being banned for breaking rules that don't exist.

Are you really sure about that?

I'm quite sure GM's do their job

in between what a random dude write in this epic forum and the real reason why some GM banned said guy, I pick the GM side.

I'm quite sure GM's do their job and also in between what a random dude write in this epic forum and the real reason why some GM banned said guy, I pick the GM side.

GǪenforcing rules that don't exist?
Are you really sure you think that their job?

That's a slightly different problem: you don't have the GM side.
You have this guy's side, and if he was indeed warned and banned for the reason he says he is, then the GMs are in the wrong because the rule in question doesn't exist.

While logically I agree with Tippia, the unfortunate truth is we will never have the GM's side as it pertains to this case.

CCP do not discuss disciplinary actions due to their privacy policy.

GǪenforcing rules that don't exist?
Are you really sure you think that their job?

That's a slightly different problem: you don't have the GM side.
You have this guy's side, and if he was indeed warned and banned for the reason he says he is, then the GMs are in the wrong because the rule in question doesn't exist.

Occasionally they do. In this case, for instance, they could confirm that they have indeed expanded the newbie system rule to cover additional systems (and list them), or they could say that no, that wasn't what the warning/ban was for and confirm that yes, can flipping/baiting is still allowed in the systems in question.

This debacle comes down to just one thing I guess, which CCP seems hesitant to answer:

What does or doesn't constitute a newbie and/or newbie-protected content?

I see no problem with this if they think they do their job correctly.

Imho and really, quite imho, if they did not comment this "new rule" it's probably because this banned guy just said what he wanted. Until CCP says something about baiting newbs in SOE hig sec systems, you're clearly not transgressing a rule that doesn't exist.

That is exactly why I see it as a problem: if they warn or ban people for offences that don't exist, then they aren't doing their job correctly. Making sure they know that is imperative.

I don't care one whit what the OP actually did GÇö I care about the claim of impropriety on behalf of the GMs. This is one area where EVE needs very clear rules that don't change on the whim of the individual. If this makes people skirt the very edge of those rules, then so be it.

In particular, as is the allegation in this case, when there already is a well-defined rule, they need to be exceedingly clear if and when they change it.

This debacle comes down to just one thing I guess, which CCP seems hesitant to answer:

What does or doesn't constitute a newbie and/or newbie-protected content?

Or maybe everyone is making an ocean of suppositions about something some random dude chose to say when perhaps he forgot to say "everything" he should

I wouldn't say it's hesitance. The thread has barely been up a couple of hours. For all we know they're drafting an official response...or a "this thread violates forum rules" sticker. I'm not making any assumptions.

I am not discussing specific warnings/bans. That is not my point and it just gets threads locked anyhow. I just want to know how far the rabbit hole goes in as-far as extending the "rookie system" envelope and anything similar so that I or my associates don't get wrapped up in future "random" sanctioning. If I was simply ignorant about something, then I wouldn't have posted.

I'm not out to "kill EVE" by killing off new players, but if my participation in things I've been doing for over a year is suddenly being viewed as against the EULA and might cause me to no longer be able to play internet spaceships, I want to know about it.

Well I actually care about what that dude said. He's making himself a victim while only him and the GM know exactly what happened and since this "rule" doesn't exist it's quite obvious he's just trying to confuse people reading/believing his crap.

The question of what does or does not constitute a newbie is valid regardless of the OP's independent situation.

Everyone just wants to know if there is a change in the rules and that is not against forum policy.

No. It means he got wrongfully banned and warned, if that was the reason given.

Can flipping is allowed in all systems, with the exception of the starting systems. The SOE arc does not take place there.

The problem here is that there is no ignorance, except on the part of the GM in question since (s)he is enforcing a non-existing rule.

This is spectacularly stupid since, if they want to warn and ban people just like that, they are allowed to do so according to a completely different rule that wasn't applied here

You can, all you have to do or people interested in that kind of activity is read Eula and see if it's changed or not. My guess is "not" and the real reason of ban is probably something else, but I do admit I might be wrong since I'm not interested at all in that kind of activity in game.

You can, all you have to do or people interested in that kind of activity is read Eula and see if it's changed or not. My guess is "not" and the real reason of ban is probably something else, but I do admit I might be wrong since I'm not interested at all in that kind of activity in game.

You will pardon me but:

1.) You don't actually know what happened.

When I'm "hunting" epic arc missioners, I will target BC and above ship classes and normally this means the character is 1 month or greater. Quite often it's more than 2-4 months. I am not out killing the 1 week - 2 week old newbs flying vexors and catalysts because there isn't any sport in that kind of "fishing."

But regardless the point of the post isn't for "killing teh noobs! I'm a terrible person!" I just want clarification on current rules that are being enforced that aren't posted anywhere as being rules. Prior to this, Arnon and other epic arc systems have not been considered a rookie system via the "anti rookie" policy. Enforcing policies that aren't made available is just bad taste because then how do we know we're breaking a rule if it was never declared a rule in the first place?

How about this... Don't harass the noobs doing the sister's of eve epic, grow a set, and fight people who can and will fight back?

This is not covered by the EULA and has always been considered fare game. If the pilot is lying then all they have to do is say so, if he isn't then they need to tell players something that wasn't previously against the rules now is.

I understand your point of view and probably those gaming rules are somewhere else like TOS or whatever name it is.

I understand your point of view and probably those gaming rules are somewhere else like TOS or whatever name it is.

However there's no public announce of changes for this precise fact as they usually do (like can flipping newbs in newbie systems), and at the end of the day it's up to us to trust or not this guy post. Until this supposed change is announced I don't, that simple.

Have you tried to petition about this specific stuff?

No. They have always been part of the only official example of what constitutes GÇ£griefingGÇ¥. It is not part of the legalese and policies.

That is why, if there is any lack of clarity on this point, they need to announce it.

Thing is that atm we have nothing to discuss about than someone's rumour without proving facts. When I'll see or read facts by officials then it will be time I make my self an ulcer.

No. It means he got wrongfully banned and warned, if that was the reason given.

Can flipping is allowed in all systems, with the exception of the starting systems. The SOE arc does not take place there.

The problem here is that there is no ignorance, except on the part of the GM in question since (s)he is enforcing a non-existing rule. This is spectacularly stupid since, if they want to warn and ban people just like that, they are allowed to do so according to a completely different rule that wasn't applied here. In fact, there are numerous rules that could have been applied GÇö can baiting/flipping in a newbie system isn't one of them. Instead of using the actual rules, they are referring to one that doesn't exist.

They would, but that's the entire problem here: there is nothing to adapt to. No rule that covers the described situation exists.

Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master

Maybe it's under the griefing portion of the EULA.

GAWD, what is wrong with the so-called 'Vets' in this game?

Enforcing policies that aren't made available is just bad taste

Doing a little bit of battleclinic research on the OP reveals the OP killed a 5 day old character, not just once, but 3 times within a 7 minute time frame. Perhaps this is what the GM was getting on you about?

Doing a little bit of battleclinic research on the OP reveals the OP killed a 5 day old character, not just once, but 3 times within a 7 minute time frame. Perhaps this is what the GM was getting on you about?

Confirming I actively hunt impairors. They provide so much joy to kill. . You don't even know what happened there, but obviously I'm targeting newbs hardcore.

I'm pretty much the devil. Which makes sense, since I'm friends with a guy who is known to have the personality traits of several micro-Hitlers. [EDIT: I've been told he's actually 50 of them].

Nothing. They just want to be informed if and when there are any changes in the rules. Why are people so upset about the notion of there being rules that you can follow?

The Blood-Stained Stars arc is considered to be part of the New Player Experience (NPE).

I therefore can understand that the GMs might get tired of responding to "interference" petitions and start swinging the ban-hammer.

You can try to 'Rationalize Away' the issue all you want.

GǪin which case they need to make this rules-change clear and actually reference which rule they're enforcing when swinging that hammer.

Yes, asking them to communicate rules changes is pretty rational. Why are you so upset that people are asking for it?

Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master

So what people are conveniently skipping over here is the problem that this supposed ruling makes all of the SOE epic arc systems off limits for any kind of can flipping, ninja-ing, and baiting. This means that the following systems have been added to the 'no touch zone' (even against non-noobs, if we follow the way the rookie systems are handled):

- Arnon
- Emsar
- Manarq
- Tar
- Larvier
- Ashokon
- Attyn
- Avyuh
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Harerget

And a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. The point of the OP wasn't to question whether or not shooting someone who just started the game is lame (which it is), but the fact that the GMs are arbitrarily enforcing a very clear rule in places it doesn't belong. The GMs need to make clear their expansion of systems, or actually train their GMs.

If they do plan expanding this protection to all epic arc systems, they need to think twice about how much protection this will offer to the veteran players who run the arcs (and who are, incidentally, the majority of the people who actually run the soe epic arc).

I don't usually find myself agreeing with DeMichael, and even less often find myself disagreeing with you, but in this instance he is 100% correct and you seem to be nit picking a few words here and there while overlooking the glaringly obvious, so I shall re-quote it.

See, it clearly says do not mess with rookies. It also says that the rule remains vague for a purpose, precisely the purpose that has been displayed in this thread, where people are asking for super accurate detailed sets of rules.

No, he's pretty much 100% wrong because he has failed to understand the issue, as he always does.

The quote you're using is completely irrelevant. The question is, as always, whether or not they have expanded the rules about can baiting/flipping to new systems without telling anyone. If so, could they please stop doing that and actually communicate such rules changes, because they have far-reaching implications.

1: Show info on character.
2: Is character less than a month old?
3: If yes go to 5, if not go to 4.
4: Gank them.
5: Find someone who isn't a noob.

See how stupidly easy that is? Follow those simple rules when you scan down someone running an SOE mission and you'll be golden.

The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand?

The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand? The rule he posted and that I re-quoted is relevant to any situation involving noob pilots, it is not just about noob pilots in starter systems.

The question at hand is whether or not the rookie system rule, in which all can-baiting, ninja-ing, and can-flipping are COMPLETELY off limits - even against veteran players in that system. The OP wanted to know if the epic arc systems are now ruled as rookie systems, in which case all non-war related kills are outlawed. This is not about whether or not killing rookies is ok, but whether or not CCP decided to make a bunch of blatantly non-rookie systems, safe-zones.

Learn to read before you post.

The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand? The rule he posted and that I re-quoted is relevant to any situation involving noob pilots, it is not just about noob pilots in starter systems.

If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran playerGǪ

Exactly.

GǪis completely irrelevant because that is not the issue.

GǪis completely irrelevant because that is not the issue.

You have already confirmed that you do not understand the rule being discussed GÇö no need to confirm it even further.

If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player using the very simple method of checking pilot info then you need more than rule clarification, you need glasses and possibly some form of medical intervention.

EDIT: Clarification. The rule regarding rookies is not just to cover rookie systems, but to cover the rookies themselves, hence the lack of any super detailed rules as Homonia made quite clear.

Can flipping / baiting

This refers to the practice of (ab)using the Criminal Flagging System to cause a fight between yourself and an unsuspecting party in high-security space. See main article for more.

Can flipping is officially considered griefing only in Rookie Systems. Some people do it just for fun, without the actual intent to cause the feelings of harassment and frustration in the victim. It is, however, also a typical form of griefing in the classic sense.

I'm lost, what is everyone actually discussing at this point.

The question at hand is whether or not the rookie system rule, in which all can-baiting, ninja-ing, and can-flipping are COMPLETELY off limits - even against veteran players in that system. The OP wanted to know if the epic arc systems are now ruled as rookie systems, in which case all non-war related kills are outlawed. This is not about whether or not killing rookies is ok, but whether or not CCP decided to make a bunch of blatantly non-rookie systems, safe-zones.

Learn to read before you post.

Source

The rules regarding rookie systems are explicitly clear. Doing anything but killing war targets in rookie systems is considered griefing, regardless of whether or not the target is a rookie. This means if the player is 6 years old and dies to you can flipping in the rookie systems, you have violated the EULA and can be warned/banned. If they expand the list of rookie systems to include the epic arc systems, this ruling also includes all non-rookies in those systems.

So again, pull your head out of your ass before you post.

Dear god another person who does not understand. That is the rule for ROOKIE SYSTEMS. It is not the ONLY rule designed to cover rookies. Seriously, how can people be so thick?

Way to be dense. The rookie system rules prevent any form of flipping, ninja-ing, etc in those systems, NOT just against rookies.

I don't really care for any special privileges or protection granted to new players simply because giving them the illusion that they are immune in hisec will simply come back to bite them when they get suicide ganked while mining in a Hulk or traveling in a shiny T3. I could see why prohibiting can baiting in starter systems is disallowed, but epic arc systems are quite the stretch.

However, your complete inability to understand a very simple concept is causing my brain to overload. How is it you fail to understand that the rules regarding rookies are not just to cover them in the starter systems, but to cover them until they pass that magic 1 month mark?

That is the rule for ROOKIE SYSTEMS.

I'm lost, what is everyone actually discussing at this point.

What you do NOT understand is that the warning/ban the OP was discussing mentioned that the epic arc systems WERE NOW CONSIDERED ROOKIE SYSTEMS. What people want to know is whether or not CCPs definition of rookie systems has been expanded. Have you even read the OP?

Because the rule doesn't just cover newbies. It's a blanket ban on aggression games in a very specific set of systems. Newbies or not is utterly irrelevant, and that's why the rule you keep quoting is irrelevant as well. The question is whether or not that list of systems has been increased.

Yes. That's the whole point. It is now apparently not only being applied to rookie systems. How can you be so dense as to not get it. It has only been explained for five pages. And let's do it again, just for good measure:

It's quite simple.

The rule is: there is a complete ban of can flipping, can baiting, and similar aggression games in a very small set of systems GÇö the starter systems where the tutorial agents are housed and the systems where the career agents are housed. Newbie or not doesn't matter GÇö you're flat out not allowed to do it regardless of who the target is.

The question is: has this list of systems been expanded to include the (high-traffic, very normal) SOE-arc systems, giving them the same blanket restrictions as the old systems?

Not just can baiting - we have either pirates or griefers ninjalooting quest items -....

The question is: has this list of systems been expanded to include the (high-traffic, very normal) SOE-arc systems, giving them the same blanket restrictions as the old systems?

Way to be dense for not reading 90% of this thread, or the part of my quoted post where i mention SOE missions, which do not take place ONLY in rookie systems.

-10/10 for literacy issues.

The answer: No.

The OP did NOT say that he was warned/banned because the systems where the SOE systems are now covered by the rookie system rules

I swear, you must have downs.

The rules explicitly state that activities such as can-baiting and flipping are only considered griefing in rookie systems.

They then explicitly list rookie systems.

Now, warnings are being given stating that can-baiting in SOE epic arc systems is griefing, but there has never been any posts, blogs, nor announcements indicating that these systems have switched to being considered rookie systems.

All the OP wants, is a confirmation whether or not these systems are now actually considered rookie systems. If they are, the GMs need to explicitly list every single system that is considered a rookie system, since you are not allowed to do any non-war related pvp in those systems.

If these systems are not considered rookie systems, then this needs to be clarified, the warning/ban removed, and the GM staff informed of this.

Ok, for you, Tippia and any other people suffering severe literacy problems I shall make it clear.

THIS GUY GOT HIS BAN/WARNING FOR SCREWING WITH ROOKIES.

Incorrect. The answer is: we don't know; could the GMs please clarify.

Now you're getting it.

GǪexcept we don't know that. So you can make your version as clear as you like. It doesn't alter or answer the question.

Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master

Don't cherry pick my posts Tippia

GǪexcept we don't know that. So you can make your version as clear as you like. It doesn't alter or answer the question.

Then don't cherry-pick the rules being asked about and the questions being asked. Also, don't make up your own facts.

You can keep posting that quote. It is as irrelevant as the first time you posted it because it doesn't address the question in the slightest.

Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master

I just want to know whether or not CCP is officialy calling the SOE Epic Arc Systems rookie systems. The warnings/bans I originally spoke of specifically mentioned that they were for griefing in a rookie system, and that the event took place in Arnon. Specifically, the warnings were issued for griefing non-rookies in the epic arc systems, not for killing 2 week-old rookies.

Hunting week old characters is not worth anyone's time, and is not the point of the post. The problem is that the rookie system rule prevents me from killing the several month old dumbass flying a vindicator. CCP needs to clarify if these systems are now protected by the 'rookie-griefing' blanket ruling that prevents all non-war based pvp in those systems.

I just want to know whether or not CCP is officialy calling the SOE Epic Arc Systems rookie systems. The warnings/bans I originally spoke of specifically mentioned that they were for griefing in a rookie system, and that the event took place in Arnon. Specifically, the warnings were issued for griefing non-rookies in the epic arc systems, not for killing 2 week-old rookies.

Hunting week old characters is not worth anyone's time, and is not the point of the post. The problem is that the rookie system rule prevents me from killing the several month old dumbass flying a vindicator. CCP needs to clarify if these systems are now protected by the 'rookie-griefing' blanket ruling that prevents all non-war based pvp in those systems.

Just to repeat myself, yet again, I am making nothing up.

I just want to know whether or not CCP is officialy calling the SOE Epic Arc Systems rookie systems. The warnings/bans I originally spoke of specifically mentioned that they were for griefing in a rookie system, and that the event took place in Arnon. Specifically, the warnings were issued for griefing non-rookies in the epic arc systems, not for killing 2 week-old rookies.

Hunting week old characters is not worth anyone's time, and is not the point of the post. The problem is that the rookie system rule prevents me from killing the several month old dumbass flying a vindicator. CCP needs to clarify if these systems are now protected by the 'rookie-griefing' blanket ruling that prevents all non-war based pvp in those systems.

Ok. let's repeat what you said:

GÇ£THIS GUY GOT HIS BAN/WARNING FOR SCREWING WITH ROOKIES.GÇ¥

Made up. The quote you keep using is as irrelevant as the first time you posted it because it only applies to your made-up case. The quote answers nothing. Repeating it answers nothing GÇö it just shows you've not understood what the question is.

And if you had bothered doing any background research in to this guy

Honestly, I am disappointed in you Tippia, I thought you were above **** posting.

GǪit would still not make your GǣfactGǥ any less made up. You're trying to answer a question that is not being asked because you assume that this answer will be the right one based on a completely different assumption about the facts of the case.

The actual question being asked is whether the rookie-system rules has been expanded to include a whole new set of systems, and your precious quote doesn't answer this.

So warnings and temp bans are being issued for doing anything with cans or the SOE Epic Arcs now, but as far as I've seen, nothing has been posted. If someone has a link for the updated policies, I'd appreciate it. I wouldn't want to get banned for rules that CCP are making up, enforcing, and not making public.

Can we get an official list of your new classification for "rookie systems" since the GMs are now responding to can baiting in places like Arnon (0.6), Hek (0.5), and other parts of the Epic Arc chain?

The question is coming from someone who has clearly lied

GǪit would still not make your GǣfactGǥ any less made up. You're trying to answer a question that is not being asked because you assume that this answer will be the right one based on a completely different assumption about the facts of the case.

The actual question being asked is whether the rookie-system rules has been expanded to include a whole new set of systems, and your precious quote doesn't answer this.

About what?

More to the point: so what? Don't go for the ad hominem. It's still a question worth asking, and it's still worth a proper answer.
Assuming that a different rule is being applied doesn't answer the question.

Everywhere you go in life, you will meet stupid people. There are those who genuinely lack inteligence (i.e. Children) and those who are ignorant (all other stupid people). Penalizing people for popping noobs is completely ********. While I do not specifically target noobs, I will shoot one if one goes red to me. I will shoot a noob as fast as I would shoot anyone else who is red to me. This being said, there is a warning message when someone does something that could potentially cost them their ship. You get one when you go into low-sec. You get one when you attempt to fire on the station in a high-sec system. You also get one when you open a can and attempt to loot the contents when said contents belong to someone else. How about make that warning message huge. Make it the size of the entire screen in huge capital letters that says, "HEY STUPID. IF YOU TAKE THE CONTENTS OF THIS CAN, YOU SHOULD BE PREPARED TO POD YOUR ASS BACK TO THE STATION BECAUSE THE OWNER WILL LIKELY KILL YOUR STUPID ASS BECAUSE YOU ULTIMATELY WILL CLOSE THIS WARNING BOX AND ATTEMPT TO LOOT IT ANYWAYS AND THUS LOSE YOUR SHIP TO THE OWNER OF THIS CAN ONLY SO YOU CAN SUPPLY CCP WITH A CONSTANT INFLUX OF PETITIONS FOR YOUR OWN STUPIDITY. "

Then when they loot that **** anyways, there should be another message that pops up after their ship 'splodes saying, "I TOLD YOU SO YOU STUPID F**K. CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING A DUMBASS. NOW DOCK UP IN STATION AND GET YOUR NEW ROOKIE SHIP. HAVE A NICE DAY."

I think this will fix the problem. It makes just as much sense as someone who flies their 1 week old character into low-sec with a mammoth because they want to afk mine in a belt. You can't fix stupid people. Let them be stupid, let me kill them, let us all laugh. There are carebears who will disagree with this and someone will try to flame me for it but ultimately I don't care. I don't play in rookie systems but I do stay in Arnon most of the time. I hope I have pissed some of you off while making others laugh. Really though, I f**king mean it.

The question is coming from someone who has clearly lied, is most likely still lying and is quite clearly someone who has no problems killing rookies, despite his assertion that they are "not worth anyone's time". Why is it that you automatically believe him when he says that his warning was issued for something unrelated? Wool pulled over eye's much?

Just remember you two, you are more often on the same side than not.

Just sayin'.

I can tell you first hand when you get a warning CCP do not tell you who petitioned you, if OP claims he "knows" it was not a rookie, he is lying.

This entire thread is based on the word of a liar.

Don't cherry pick my posts Tippia, it only serves to make you look inarticulate and incapable of holding up your end of a discussion.

holy wall of text Batman.

This entire thread is based on the word of a liar. He states that he got a specific type of warning for a specific type of action, what I am saying is that he got an entirely different warning for an entirely different type of action. There is more proof of what actually happened, than what he SAYS happened. Thus his question is invalid, and arguing in support of having it answered is an exercise in futility and an example of gross stupidity.

Regardless of whether or not the OP lied, the GMs should explicitly state whether or not the SOE epic arc systems are covered by the rookie system rule.

I realize that you have trouble understanding this, and you're clinging onto anything you can because your ego will be destroyed by being wrong on the internet, but the question posed by the OP, regardless of whether or not everything in the OP was 100% accurate, needs to be answered.

He doesn't claim to know that.

He claims that he got a reason and a location, for which that reason does not apply.

What has he lied about? And again, why does it matter for the question being asked? His question is not invalid just because of his history. In fact, his history makes the question very interestingGǪ

Nice posting

Actually he does claim the warning was "specifically for messing with non rookies":

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1466480#post1466480

He could not possibly know this, since the person petitioning him would not have been identified. Add to that the fact that almost all his kills are rookies, and you get an OP who is just embellishing his tale of woe to try and appear the victim of unfair GM treatmet.

I would not be against CCP clarifying their position now someone had come along and confused the issue, but in general you cannot expect CCP to always verify or dismiss the ravings of random forum lunatics. I think threads like these are probably the very reason moderation discussion is not allowed.

Actually he does claim the warning was "specifically for messing with non rookies":

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1466480#post1466480

Those who are flaming the OP should visit the SOE Epic Arc system some time.

It's a Jita-like local in that system with all the trash talking.

Most of the time new players are not baited, but sometimes they will flip a can not knowing the consequences.

The rest of the time, it's the people who never moved on that talk trash and often throw down on each other.
Typically it's the can placed at the station to get 1v1 fights that cause these problems, I guess...

You are right there. I redid the arc a few months ago. Was in a cane and had a guy scan me down and warp to me in a nighthawk, he then looted the mission can and told me to pay 40m if I want him to abandon the can.

I gave him the finger, collected his tears and just restarted the mission.

I'd also like some clarification.

I'm on the last part of the SOE storyline and can't break Dagon's tank.

I figured I'd wait until four days until I got Engineering to V and could fit that last gun, but I might ask in Local for help instead.

Can flipping is prohibited in the newbie systems.

Wait. What?

If I don't know what the rules are, how am I supposed to know if I'm breaking them?

Dumbest.

Post.

Ever.

Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

If there is a ban on griefing rookies in these systems, will there also be a ban on stuff like hulk mining? And I presume anyone flying a BS/T3 is fair game right?

Not that I personally ever set foot in high sec, but I wouldn't want to see these systems become a safe haven for people who aren't rookies.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

Hek? a rooky system? WTF?

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.

Hek? a rooky system? WTF?

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.

We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means.

Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?

My post very clearly mentions rookies. We want everyone to let new players acclimate to the game before they are thrown in with the sharks. By all means, gank, steal from, scam and whatever else you want to experienced players. They should know the crack of the whip.

Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.

Ty for replying, seems like a reasonable change then.

Although its odd thinking of Hek as a rookie system.

so shooting someone who literally has no idea what can flipping even means is your idea of a fight?

FFS, come visit nullsec. I guarantee you'll find a real fight.

CCP needs to clarify if these systems are now protected by the 'rookie-griefing' blanket ruling that prevents all non-war based pvp in those systems.

Although its odd thinking of Hek as a rookie system.

Read my post. I'm saying that the tutorials should explain the dangers of stealing form cans and other common things like canflipping. If the new players understand the dangers, rules like these should not be needed.

Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.

Oh Wow....seems you are one of those which happily show newbies how harsh Eve is in their very first start....you know the Tutorials require to dock off and get the first ship? And then a newbie returns sees a can labeled 'free stuff' until then he had just done the first step YOU REALLY think he would know about those consequences taking the stuff inside this can will have for him?

Geezus Christ....GM Homonoia should maybe have a look in your kill list and find alot of Newbie kills in it.....if so...enjoy your vacation my friend.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed nephew from the Serpentis Founder )

Oh Wow....seems you are one of those which happily show newbies how harsh Eve is in their very first start....you know the Tutorials require to dock off and get the first ship? And then a newbie returns sees a can labeled 'free stuff' until then he had just done the first step YOU REALLY think he would know about those consequences taking the stuff inside this can will have for him?

Geezus Christ....GM Homonoia should maybe have a look in your kill list and find alot of Newbie kills in it.....if so...enjoy your vacation my friend.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed nephew from the Serpentis Founder )

Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon. See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_SystemsHistory lesson A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems. Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well. Present day Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing. Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are: - Tar - Harerget - Hatakani - Hek - Lustrevik - Tanoo - Lisudeh - Sosh - Manarq - Chainelant

Feel free to check my kills. No I do not like people that kill new players. However I think it is better to tackle the problem at the root instead of treating the symptoms.

Before the rookie enters his first ship the basic gameplay mechanics should be explained. Otherwise everybody will leave them alone in the rookiesystems, but once they are ready with the epic arc they will get griefed. Is that better?

I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.

EDIT: Misread post, the quote above makes it explicitly clear that it is legal to can-flip, ninja, gank, etc all blatantly non-rookie pilots, even if they're in rookie systems.

With that said, can it be noted on the Rookie system wiki page that non-rookies are legal targets?

Well i dont like it but

Ty for anwsering

Just an idea if CCP doesn't want to new die like that with just not make it impossible to lock someone that on a trial accounts AND that didn't engage anyone?

Ex: if someone try to can flip a newb the newb will just get is stuff and leave without any consequence, if the newb is no longer in trial or if he had already engage someone then he will simply lose it's immunity and be like any other player and can be shooted

Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies:

The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies GÇö it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the GÇ£don't mess with rookiesGÇ¥ policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not GÇö that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems.

After double checking the rookie systems wiki page, there is obvious conflict between your statement and the red warning at the bottom of the page. If it is indeed legal to can-flip, gank, and ninja non-rookies in these systems, then this page really needs to be updated to reflect the actual rules. Otherwise, this page basically says that all players of eve are completely safe in the listed systems.

Good lord, please learn to quote properly. Also are you really complaining because you aren't allowed to grief rookies? Are you really that crap at EVE that you consider them targets?

Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.

Then define a rookie please.Is it a player on a trial account? How can we see this ingame?

First step to a pvp flag. Bad idea.

Then define a rookie please.Is it a player on a trial account? How can we see this ingame?

Stupid is as stupid does

Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.

Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific.

My post very clearly mentions rookies.