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Taiberian
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Posted - 2009.10.31 02:06:00 -
[1]
Hi
I guess you miners are already aware about what happened few days ago: Hulkaggedon To be honest.. such kind of events makes me think twice before choose minery as a profession. I mean. is ok if you are in a decent industry corp that lives in 0.0 and so on.. but, what happens with all this other miners who just want to peacefully solo mine in empire earn some isk? what's the point to invest such huge amount of isk in a fully fitted exhumer if you have all the chances to get blowed up in pieces by 4 cheapo destroyers? I'd even consider this suicide gank method as an exploit due to is unbalanced way of work. invest/skills attackers Vs invest/skills victim (of course always meaning that we are in EMPIRE) what would happen if, eventually, all miners decide to just give up because the find out that no longer worth to mine in high/low sec? well I don't want to make drama.. but I just feel that the security system in hight sec fails and that CCP should fix this (balancing the risk/profit in high sec (better ores), insta-blow the gankers (all of them) in 0.0000 sec)or either ban concord system (anyway it fails)and all security rules same as in null sec.
The final point is, for all this non experienced players, who are somehow new in the mining industry, remember: High sec is NOT safe. Never, ever, ever leave your hulk mining afk. This, that could be too much obvious for an experienced player is a major mistake made by new players who trust in the safety of being in high sec.
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.10.31 03:22:00 -
[2]
You have these things, they're called eyes. Use them. -_-_-_-
I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for.
-_-_-_ |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.10.31 04:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Taiberian CCP should fix this (balancing the risk/profit in high sec (better ores), insta-blow the gankers (all of them) in 0.0000 sec)or either ban concord system (anyway it fails)and all security rules same as in null sec.
Risk/Profit in highsec is already incredibly low risk and very good profit. The chance of being suicide ganked is very close to nothing, which is why it makes news when several dozen out of HUNDREDS of thousands of people suffer it. On the other hand in lowsec, the chance of death is pretty good, and the profit no better. If anything the quality of ores in highsec needs a reduction, strangely you would find that this wouldn't decrease profits because of the reduced competition.
The reality is unlike the 'old' suicide ganking, there isn't typically any 'profit' to be had from this, in exchange for the fairly significant sec status penalties. You can't stop people from being ****s.
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rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.31 05:14:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Signore Kaeota You have these things, they're called eyes. Use them.
You have these things, they're called Shield extenders. Use them.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.10.31 07:31:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Baka Lakadaka on 31/10/2009 07:32:21 Just like real life - walking through an upper class neighbourhood does reduce the risk of being mugged, but it doesn't eliminate it. Walking around with a stack of cash sticking out of your back pocket isn't going to help your survivability.
I know many players who have played Eve for many years and never been suicide ganked. They watch local, listen to the intel channels, use the directional scanner and generally are just careful.
Eve does emulate real life in may ways.
While I don't think suicide ganking is necessarily something that needs to be stamped out, I can't see why insurance is still paid. In RL, if you ram-raid the bank, chances are the insurance company isn't going to pay out your insurance.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Recruitment Re-opening Monday. |
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.31 15:12:00 -
[6]
Here's what I use. It isn't invincible but it is better than a lot of tank-less fittings.
[Hulk, EHP] Damage Control II Expanded Cargohold II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Vespa EC-600 x5
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Charlen
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Posted - 2009.10.31 17:10:00 -
[7]
It really doesnt matter how you fit a hulk, it just wont hold up to a suicide gank. Even if you do away with all your upgrades and put on a med shield extender with a small (requires ancillary current routers and RCU's) it just wont work. Personally I think the hulk needs a big buff. You shouldnt be able to kill a 100 mil isk ship in 2 shots with destroyers. Maybe its just me. Hell I dont even mine that much anyway so it really doesnt matter to me but I see all the hulk kills and think hmmm someone is padding thier kb again.
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IIIAsharakIII
Solstice Systems Development Concourse Distant Drums
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Posted - 2009.10.31 19:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: IIIAsharakIII on 31/10/2009 19:15:28 Eve online is full of morons. I've never understood suicide ganks, I spend too much time in low sec and 0.0 to bother with concord and game mechanics. But I can tell you one thing, it isn't going away.
Why? I think there's something in one of my sociology books about this. . . . . .
Or you can go read the Leviathon.
Either way, Human beings really are pieces of ****. Eve online is a great example of this. In fact, if the world was left at the whim of the eve online player base, it wouldn't be there the following week.
Anyway, try not to sweat the small stuff. Most of those griefers are there anyway because they couldn't hack it in 0.0. Besides, there are a lot of pvpers and pirates who still like doing things the old fashioned way, which in my opinion is much more rewarding.
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lexitus
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Posted - 2009.10.31 20:31:00 -
[9]
Oh noes! I'm a solo miner and I just got my retriever some sucide gankers would ruin my day! Hehe sence all I do is mine and make money tho I would replace my ship in the amount of time it takes me to buy a new one. That's the only thing about all this I don't get if you mine especially in a hulk and get ganked the ship lost is nothing compared to what you make or have made during the time you operated it? I understand about it being not at all a balanced fight but in all reality isn't it just a minor setback? I'm extremely new so mybe I don't know what I'm talking about. ><
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Wacom Research
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Posted - 2009.10.31 21:13:00 -
[10]
When Hulks vastly outnumber ANY other kind of mining ship, something is unbalanced. The only mining ships I see anymore are Hulks and the occassional Retriever.
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Lord Kazuhiro
Amarr Empire Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.10.31 21:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Borun Tal When Hulks vastly outnumber ANY other kind of mining ship, something is unbalanced. The only mining ships I see anymore are Hulks and the occassional Retriever.
How do you figure that? Hulks are the kings of asteroid mining. Thus they are most common in asteroid belts. Go to an ice belt and lo' and behold, mackinaws. There is no reason to use a crappier ship to do what a better ship can do.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.01 00:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lord Kazuhiro
Originally by: Borun Tal When Hulks vastly outnumber ANY other kind of mining ship, something is unbalanced. The only mining ships I see anymore are Hulks and the occassional Retriever.
How do you figure that? Hulks are the kings of asteroid mining. Thus they are most common in asteroid belts. Go to an ice belt and lo' and behold, mackinaws. There is no reason to use a crappier ship to do what a better ship can do.
Exactly.
There are 30 classes of ships, with 2 of those classes being mining ships: tech 1 Barges and tech 2 Exhumers. Every one of the Exhumers is specialized:
* Hulk for ore * Mackinaw for ice * Skiff for Mercoxit
Retriever is a big skill and yield jump up from a mining cruiser. Covetor is so close to Exhumer that most don't bother with it, except when they think they could lose a Hulk. Procurer is pointless, being maybe 1 day to train to Retriever.
So out of 6 mining ships in EVE, seeing a Hulk or Retriever mining ore is not surprising. Seeing anything else is.
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.11.01 16:48:00 -
[13]
I'm all my countless hours mining I've only ever witnessed one suicide gank, and been victim to none, they aren't as common as the C&P crowd would like you to believe.
Though I believe there are some tactics to minimize the risk; Try to stay off the beaten path, gankers are more likely to be drawn to busy systems with lots of targets. A lot of gankers will scan potential targets, and depending on how much damage they have available either looking for untanked hulks, or if they have the fire power pimped hulks with Gistii shield boosters on. Tank you ship but don't go more expensive than tech 2.
If you're really worried about being suicide ganked there is always the covetor, it's yield isn't that much lower than the hulk.
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Domoso
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Posted - 2009.11.01 23:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Borun Tal When Hulks vastly outnumber ANY other kind of mining ship, something is unbalanced. The only mining ships I see anymore are Hulks and the occassional Retriever.
Lets see, how many variations of mining ships are there? The barges, 3, the exhumers, 3. Out of those 6, which provides the greatest survivability/profitability. The Mackinaw is a specialty ice mining Exhumer. The Skiff is a specialty Mercoxit mining Exhumer. The Retriever is the first barge most miners will choose in order to step up from using a cruiser which roughly double's one's production. The Procuror doesn't increase production from a well fitted cruiser. And the Covetor while sexy, is just 3 days shy of the required training for a Hulk.
So, out of the plethora (6) mining vessels....oh wait, lets remove the specialty exhumers (4), oh and the procurer since is does nothing but make one more vulnerable to belt rats (3).....so out of the plethora of mining vessels (3) available, which would suggest the miners use? The prevalence of the Hulk is only due to one reason: lack of choice. Out of three choices starting from the Hulk, down to the Covetor and then Retriever the issue for the miner is he/she can choose to cut their production by roughly 1/2 to 3/4's choosing anything else with generalize capabilities. Miners don't have dozens of ships from different races to choose with infinite variability of configurations available. It's obvious you have never mined. You should train for a Retriever and then fit it to mine and protect yourself. You'll quickly find that the Retriever affords you only a symbolic amount of protection.
Such a statement as yours is nothing more than a statement about your own perceived superiority over those that mine. That somehow what you do is better. And yet you could no more separate yourself from your dependency upon miners than you could your brain. The only reason for the jihad against miners is, they're easy prey. If there were easier prey you could be assured that the miners would not be the target anymore.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2009.11.02 03:34:00 -
[15]
Just insta pop anyone that shoots another in 0.5 or higher... PROBLEM Solved !
Mining barges (t1 and t2) are too light armored. Should take a t2 fitted BS or better to pop one in high sec. and smart bombs should not be allowed in high security at all (minus mission Dead Space).
Make it expensive for a gank, less would occur.... but, its even easier than above, remove insurance all together on all ships and make them think about a gank.
or combine both and make the really think about.
Miners have gotten the short end of the stick since EVE was created, so welcome to the shaft
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Taiberian
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Posted - 2009.11.02 05:40:00 -
[16]
Pirates do exist and seems like is a somehow profitable "profession" and CCP are fine with it so I don't think they will change nothing. That leave us, miners, alone to solve the problem of piracy. Anyway in Histoty and RL pirates Vs Merchants has been always the daily life at the wild seas.
So, besides the basic rules like: - Never mine afk - keep your ship aligned to station or safe spot. - always keep an eye on Local chat and overview.
what else it can be done?
well, the main point of being ganked is to hopefully loot your mods, sell them (saddly other miner might buy this loots, heh even the victim..) and get profit after pay the pirate lost ship and fits. So, if there were nothing valuable left that worth the gank investment pirates would go and hang around anywhere else but the belts. So, instead of fitting a hulk with the top ends named boosters (Gistii type B and similar)that attract pirates like honey to flies, why don't use just more standard and cheapo mods? Anyway we're in high-sec don't we? just to care about 0.5 and up rats (should be enough with standard shields and drones) Being honest, no named shield will protect you against a organized gank attack, they know how to do the job. But, if after the attack there's nothing left to loot that can pay the investment, they will just quit.
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Talon Calais
Gallente 1st Steps Academy Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.02 06:20:00 -
[17]
The best part of all those killmails, none of them have any fittings aside from strip miners and cargo expanders.
[Hulk, EHP] Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II
Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
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General Coochie
The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.11.02 12:17:00 -
[18]
Edited by: General Coochie on 02/11/2009 12:19:28
Originally by: Taiberian
So, besides the basic rules like: - Never mine afk - keep your ship aligned to station or safe spot. - always keep an eye on Local chat and overview.
This would go a long way. Especially aligning, there is no way someone could suicide an aligned hulk. Just warp out when a dessie warps in on top of you. However this demands you to not play afk online. Sorry but I do not think changes that gives ppl the option to play this game afk and almost risk free is a good idea.
You can also set scanner to 1au and scan repeatedly whenever something suspicious enters local. If you see a bunch of dessies or battleship on scan you warp out.
The suggested solutions can be a hassle for a miner, especially when the risk of getting suicided is pretty slim. Doing all of the above every time you mine is probably boring and demanding. But staying alive in eve is demanding.
You already have all the tools needed to avoid getting suicided. If you are to lazy, dumb or play the game afk to not use them you have no sympathy from me.
Also fitting for a pure tank as poster above did might not protect you from 8 or 10 dessies. But if a pirate corp can choose the two guys in the next belt that are untanked instead killing both with 4 ships each thats what we will do. If you keep even only a lazy eye on local then you would know whats going on and can dock your ship or whatever needs to be done.
Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
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Vikura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Talon Calais The best part of all those killmails, none of them have any fittings aside from strip miners and cargo expanders.
[Hulk, EHP] Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II
Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
2 Invuls + 2 extenders give better EHP and higher passive tank
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Talon Calais
Gallente 1st Steps Academy Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.02 20:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vikura
Originally by: Talon Calais The best part of all those killmails, none of them have any fittings aside from strip miners and cargo expanders.
[Hulk, EHP] Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II
Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
2 Invuls + 2 extenders give better EHP and higher passive tank
Probably, I've never flown a shield tanked ship in my life.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.11.02 23:33:00 -
[21]
hey Taiberian, how about you HTFU
besides mining is boring, reach out and touch somebody!
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.03 16:02:00 -
[22]
Quote:
If anything the quality of ores in highsec needs a reduction, strangely you would find that this wouldn't decrease profits because of the reduced competition.
No, because with the current prices you earn so little in high sec that further reducing it would call for nerfs on other hi sec professions, ie missioning.
Quote:
The reality is unlike the 'old' suicide ganking, there isn't typically any 'profit' to be had from this, in exchange for the fairly significant sec status penalties. You can't stop people from being ****s
ATM organized suicide miner ganking can be and is done with -10 sec pods reshipping at the destination system.
Hence there's no real penalty for it. Plus there's no penalty at using completely free suicide ships.
This is kind of imbalanced, because afaik EvE is about compromising the good with the bad of things and suicide ganking ATM got no bad thing to compromise upon.
Now, if insurance was not paid for suicide ships, I am pretty sure 95% of the proclaimed "holy battle" suicide gankers would reveal for the opportunists they are and stop it.
Quote:
When Hulks vastly outnumber ANY other kind of mining ship, something is unbalanced. The only mining ships I see anymore are Hulks and the occassional Retriever.
That's because mining is a close end profession where the ceiling is achieved relatively fast, so all can fly "the best". Plus there are not specialty branches (like IE for HACs, intys, command ships...) except for ice mining and skiffs. Moreover unlike for racial ships, there's only one "end game" mining ship so all use that.
Quote:
Anyway in Histoty and RL pirates Vs Merchants has been always the daily life at the wild seas.
In history, merchants could hire mercs for defense. You can't hire someone to prevent you being insta-popped in EvE though.
Quote:
The best part of all those killmails, none of them have any fittings aside from strip miners and cargo expanders.
Because:
- rats can't dent an untanked Hulk so fitting T2 modules is pointless
- players can kill a tanked Hulk anyway (just throw 2-3 suicide cruisers instead of one) so fitting T2 modules is basically giving away several millions loot to the attackers. Plus to make them choose your ship over the T1 fitted ones.
Quote:
The suggested solutions can be a hassle for a miner, especially when the risk of getting suicided is pretty slim. Doing all of the above every time you mine is probably boring and demanding. But staying alive in eve is demanding
Losing an Hulk every some weeks is a well made investment over bleeding your eyes playing like you are in low sec. After all, if high sec miners stay in high sec, is to avoid bleeding their eyes playing in low sec.
In the end the real and useful suggestion is to go well off the beaten path and mine there.
Well, the useful suggestion would be to stop mining and do anything else, but some seem to stomach mining even now that is beyond worthless.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Taiberian
So, besides the basic rules like: - Never mine afk - keep your ship aligned to station or safe spot. - always keep an eye on Local chat and overview.
- Doesn't matter. - We use a neutral alt in a cov ops to bump the Hulk before we jump into system. - Doesn't matter, you're bumped and screwed before we jump in.
You are not safe. You are not special. We feast on your souls. =================== Go Bucks! |
Zektuuk
Minmatar Mild Mannered Mining Militia
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:26:00 -
[24]
I hate mining without a survey scanner. Here's what I use. If it gets popped, it's not too hard to fit another one.
[Hulk, Standard Issue] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Survey Scanner II Small C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix Cap Recharger II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Mining Drone II x5 Warrior II x5
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Mark Hampton
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Posted - 2009.11.03 20:35:00 -
[25]
Eve is a PvP game; you should always feel a little bit unsafe, even if you're docked. Always.
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Taiberian
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Posted - 2009.11.04 05:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton hey Taiberian, how about you HTFU
besides mining is boring, reach out and touch somebody!
I have no idea what are you talking about.. HTFU?
- Doesn't matter. - We use a neutral alt in a cov ops to bump the Hulk before we jump into system. - Doesn't matter, you're bumped and screwed before we jump in.
You are not safe. You are not special. We feast on your souls.
You can also lick my salty and sweaty miner balls, you might find some veldspar dust to sell.
Originally by: Mark Hampton Eve is a PvP game; you should always feel a little bit unsafe, even if you're docked. Always.
Ganking a solo/afk mining barge in high-sec is your idea of pvp? heh, go and do some ratting at the belts, you'll get more pew pew experience (at least the rats shoot you back) and I'll appreciate your collaboration, see? everybody happy.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.04 09:32:00 -
[27]
Quote:
You are not safe. You are not special. We feast on your souls.
Nah, don't play a melodrama. You are but a bunch of nut-less guys who don't have the balls to do the same where people could defend themselves off.
Come bump someone of my corp in 0.0 and see what happens when someone appears in the system. No Concord to save you. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
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Posted - 2009.11.04 09:39:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 04/11/2009 09:41:09 This happends from time to time. I stand fast in my advice. When you get your exhumer blown up from one of this things dont jump right back into another exhumer. Spend some time in a mining barge again. Your only looking at max a 15% mining lose till the exhumer killing is done.
I say this becouse I know miners that jump right back into exhumers and go right back to there normal mining places. Ya its just asking to lose exhumer after exhumer. But to each there own. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.04 09:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rip Minner Edited by: Rip Minner on 04/11/2009 09:41:09 This happends from time to time. I stand fast in my advice. When you get your exhumer blown up from one of this things dont jump right back into another exhumer. Spend some time in a mining barge again. Your only looking at max a 15% mining lose till the exhumer killing is done.
I say this becouse I know miners that jump right back into exhumers and go right back to there normal mining places. Ya its just asking to lose exhumer after exhumer. But to each there own.
I suggest to go mine in a WH. The minerals are much better and you can setup a bubble in the entrance. Or in the worst case you can park a couple of ships at a POS or even cloak them at the belt, so in case some buttface shows up you can actually deal with them. The thing I hated the most when I mined (and in hi sec) was the inability to keep ships ready to kill the harassers. They can kill you while gaining money due to insurance fraud but you cannot kill them because 2-3 cruisers cannot be killed in hi sec in time to save other ships, before Concord comes to save *the attackers*. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.11.04 15:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
You are but a bunch of nut-less guys who don't have the balls to do the same where people could defend themselves off.
Come bump someone of my corp in 0.0 and see what happens when someone appears in the system. No Concord to save you (before you come close).
I'm going to go ahead and guess you hold a low enough position in your alliance to misunderstand the current political landscape.
We only kill defenseless miners.
5th all time on BC. 3rd in the AT. Turibal pee vee pee ers.
=================== Go Bucks! |
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