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Horza Gobochul
Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:38:00 -
[1]
As we all know, stargates act as the primary means of transit between the numerous solar systems of Eve. In fact, within high security space there is no to using them, as the only remaining option - lighting a cynosural field is not permitted in hi-sec. We also know that stargates have limited capabilities. A carrier for example is not capable of jumping through stargates, confining him to low- and null-sec.
What is a stargate? Simply put, it is a device which transports a mass between point a and point b within a short period of time. When determining the capability of a stargate, it stands to reason to look at the mass as the limiting factor.
So far so good, but when we look at the actual capabilities of stargates in the Eve universe, it is easy to come across a some serious inconsistencies. Let me demonstrate this with a simple example. All the data that follows has been pulled from the official Eve Wiki. I'm assuming they are the same within the game. Please feel free to point out any factual errors I may have made.
The Orca has a mass of 250,000,000 kg. Well above the mass of the heaviest non-capital combat ship that I could find, which is the Vargur with a mass of 106,100,000 kg. Both ships can pass through stargates. The lightest capital ship I could find is the Nidhoggur. With its mass of 1,014,750,000 kg it may not use stargates. It is safe to say that maximum mass that can be transported through a stargate must lie somewhere in between that of the Orca and the Nidhoggur.
Obviously, when determining whether a ship is capable to use a stargate, it is not enough to simply look at the mass of the hull. The mass of the ship's cargo has to be taken into account as well. Let's do the math again, this time making some reasonable assumptions.
- A Megathron is on its way to battle with his cargohold full of cap booster charges 800. It can hold 35 units of cargo, with a mass of 80 kg per unit.
- Hull: 98,400,000 kg
- Cargo: 2,800 kg
- Total: 98,402,800 kg
- An Orca is on his way home from a successfull mining op. His cargohold is full of Veldspar. It can hold 500,000 units of cargo, with a mass of 4,000 kg per unit. (Disregarding the cargo bonus)
- Hull: 40,000,000 kg
- Cargo: 2,000,000,000 kg
- Total: 2,040,000,000 kg
As we can see, the total mass of the Orca is twice that of a carrier. And yet this monster is allowed to roam freely through high-sec space! Similar inconsistencies can be found when looking at many other industrial class ships, violating the inner logic of the game universe and causing a less than ideal gaming experience. We as players should not have to put up with inconsitent in-game physics, just so some players can have an unfair advantage over others, yet in Eve Online the very laws of nature are twisted to cater to the carebear population!
One solution could be to allow cynosural fields in high-security space, another one is to expand the capabilities of stargates to allow capital combat ships to jump through. Once upon a time this was possible, but this is no longer so due to various reasons. And the outcry of some of the population of new eden would be more than anyone could bear. Thus, a more modest proposal: Industrial ships should be required to use a jump drive and cynosural field when travelling between star systems, just like their combat counterparts. I put my full trust into CCP and I am sure that this flaw will be corrected in the near future, now that they are aware of it.
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:42:00 -
[2]
Here's an easy answer, each item is sent through individually with regards to the transfer so while the total mass of the orca would put it at heavier than a carrier the single heaviest item to transfer through the gate network is the orca which is allowed, if a capital vessel were to attempt a jump parts of it would go through the gate but the rest would not causing massive damage to the capital vessel hence they just simply do not allow capitals to attempt to jump.
See and that took me about 30 seconds to come up with :) Rally Against Evil Site |
Boomershoot
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:42:00 -
[3]
maybe it's because of the volume instead of the mass ________________________________________ i'd gladly abuse [hr] if CCP implemented it ________________________________________
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Per Bastet
Amarr B.O.O.M
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:47:00 -
[4]
The Mass listed on a Ship is only the Mass for the Ship, not the Crew, Provisions for the Crew, Your Pod, Weapon Systems, Defense Systems, Other Modules, Drones, Contents of your Cargo bay, So on and so forth.
Your Math is Terribly lacking the correct numbers. --
Bastet's Organization Of Mining |
Horza Gobochul
Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cypherous Here's an easy answer, each item is sent through individually with regards to the transfer so while the total mass of the orca would put it at heavier than a carrier the single heaviest item to transfer through the gate network is the orca which is allowed, if a capital vessel were to attempt a jump parts of it would go through the gate but the rest would not causing massive damage to the capital vessel hence they just simply do not allow capitals to attempt to jump.
See and that took me about 30 seconds to come up with :)
Interesting thought. But there is a finite amount of items that can pass through a gate at the same time. So a fully loaded Orca would take a long time to make the jump. Surely this is not what you want?
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 05/11/2009 19:48:38 Maybe it's because it's a game mechanic designed to keep the large ships they don't want in high sec out of high sec, and a way to keep those same large ships in a different strategical use than using stargates.
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Doomed Predator
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:51:00 -
[7]
Orca volume: 10,250,000.0 m3 (500,000.0 m3 packaged)
Nidhoggur volume: 11,250,000.0 m3 (1,000,000.0 m3 packaged)
So,it's still 1 mill m3 bigger than an orca which is quite a bit. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Grarr Bexx
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Posted - 2009.11.05 19:53:00 -
[8]
Get back to /bro/ you ***got.
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Horza Gobochul
Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 05/11/2009 19:48:38 Maybe it's because it's a game mechanic designed to keep the large ships they don't want in high sec out of high sec, and a way to keep those same large ships in a different strategical use than using stargates.
Which only servers to prove the point I made in the second to last paragraph.
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CrazySpaceHobo
Caldari Mysterys Inc. Clandestine Encounters
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:24:00 -
[10]
It's nothing to do with mass or volume. CONCORD put locks on all gates preventing them from jumping capital ships.
There. That was easy.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Horza Gobochul The Orca has a mass of 250,000,000 kg. Well above the mass of the heaviest non-capital combat ship that I could find, which is the Vargur with a mass of 106,100,000 kg. Both ships can pass through stargates. The lightest capital ship I could find is the Nidhoggur. With its mass of 1,014,750,000 kg it may not use stargates.
May I present to you the Rhea (or, for that matter, the Charon — same size, but without the built-in jump drive):
Capital ship, 960,000,000 kg, 16,250,000 m3, capable of gate travel…
The Orca is a very tiny ship and not a good point of comparison. Also, size is obviously not a factor. Also, also, very tiny cap ships have no problem doing the job that huge stargates can do — in some cases even to other ships.
Originally by: CrazySpaceHobo It's nothing to do with mass or volume. CONCORD put locks on all gates preventing them from jumping capital ships.
There. That was easy.
Also, this. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Horza Gobochul
Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Horza Gobochul The Orca has a mass of 250,000,000 kg. Well above the mass of the heaviest non-capital combat ship that I could find, which is the Vargur with a mass of 106,100,000 kg. Both ships can pass through stargates. The lightest capital ship I could find is the Nidhoggur. With its mass of 1,014,750,000 kg it may not use stargates.
May I present to you the Rhea (or, for that matter, the Charon ù same size, but without the built-in jump drive):
Capital ship, 960,000,000 kg, 16,250,000 m3, capable of gate travelà
Again, these are industrial ships. Further reinforcing my point.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Horza Gobochul
Originally by: Dretzle Omega Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 05/11/2009 19:48:38 Maybe it's because it's a game mechanic designed to keep the large ships they don't want in high sec out of high sec, and a way to keep those same large ships in a different strategical use than using stargates.
Which only servers to prove the point I made in the second to last paragraph.
Not at all. In fact, if anything, this caters to the non-carebears, or rather, to the non-high-sec carebears, as it seems that in your opinion carebears only live in high sec.
They gave Rorquals for non-high sec. And capital ships, titans, carriers, dreads. They always give the best goodies to 0.0. Just because they finally threw a nerfed-Rorqual in there for high sec you think that means they are catering to and favoring high sec? Or because freighters can travel around in high sec, and you think that's just for carebears? Couldn't at all be that null sec dwellers might need to transport their goods once and a while, either, huh?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Horza Gobochul Again, these are industrial ships. Further reinforcing my point.
Not really, since the Rhea is specifically designed to operate in a PvP environment. Also, your complaint is about RP inconsistencies, and can therefore be explained away with RP reasons: CONCORD anti-cap policy is a perfectly logical reason in this category. Another would be "have you seen the fuel reqs for bridging these things?! At least freighters and Orcas stimulate the economy and bring goods to the punters that generate tax revenue that pay for the jump costs. Combat caps do not. Want to fly a carrier? Buy your own @#&% fuel!" ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.05 20:59:00 -
[15]
Have you ever kissed a girl, son?
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Elsa Nietzsche
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CrazySpaceHobo It's nothing to do with mass or volume. CONCORD put locks on all gates preventing them from jumping capital ships.
There. That was easy.
That's kinda my view of it. I view star gates as systems that keep a permanent jump bridges between systems. however, whoever set up the these also has control over what is allowed to pass though. It would make sense that you would want to limit capitol warships as their only purpose is to be a part of a large, organized offensive. And so by probiting their use of star gates and not allowing cyanos to be deployed in hisec you preserve faction sovereignty becuase you elimite the risk of a massive capitol fleet invading your space.
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Ukucia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Horza Gobochul The Orca has a mass of 250,000,000 kg
Could you point out somewhere where the mass of the vessel is relevant to the stargate's wormhole effect?
'Cause if it's just the dimensions of the vessel, like in the Panama canal, you kinda have no point.
There's a theoretical limit on how small one can make these special ships with their special abilities. (Ex: the equipment required to plug in and use a siege module can only be made so small) If that's larger than the wormholes that can be opened by your typical stargate, then there's no way to get a dread through.
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Sumelar
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:37:00 -
[18]
It's not mass, it's the 4 empires and concord not wanting a psycho demi-god piloting a ship near inhabited planets with the capability of devastating densely populated worlds.
Though why carriers fall into that category, I can't really say.
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Korizan
Red Mercury Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 22:38:43 Welcome to the FICTION portion of a SCI-FI MMO.
You dig too deeply and most parts of the game will fail in one way or the other. Then again you are using a lot of presumptions based on todays math and physics.
Today's SCI-FI might be tomorrows Science Fact.
Scientists are very quick to use a word "hypothesis", and there is a good reason for it.
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Boomershoot
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:38:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Boomershoot on 05/11/2009 22:39:10 Jump drives on capital, being huge drives (not those pesky little Jump drives on the Black Ops), will eventually **** with the gate.
Problem solved
EDIT INB4 JUMP FREIGHTERS!
MASSIVE CARGO CONTAINERS WITH JUMP DRIVE, NOT CAPITALS ________________________________________ i'd gladly abuse [hr] if CCP implemented it ________________________________________
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Horza Gobochul
Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 22:38:43 Welcome to the FICTION portion of a SCI-FI MMO.
Welcome to the portion where you are unable to comprehend the difference between FICTIONAL and INCONSISTENT.
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Boomershoot
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Horza Gobochul
Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 22:38:43 Welcome to the FICTION portion of a SCI-FI MMO.
Welcome to the portion where you are unable to comprehend the difference between FICTIONAL and INCONSISTENT.
Welcome to the forums where nobody gives a ________________________________________ i'd gladly abuse [hr] if CCP implemented it ________________________________________
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Sissy Fuzz
Amarr Sissy Fuzz Communications
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Posted - 2009.11.05 23:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Horza Gobochul ...ninja trolling...
I saw what you did there.
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.05 23:11:00 -
[24]
Good idea. While we are at it I would like to hear the justification of faster than light travel. I propose that every ship move from place to place using only its regular engines because when I play a computer game about spaceships, I look for realism. - |
J'mee Leggs
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Posted - 2009.11.05 23:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bumblefck Have you ever kissed a girl, son?
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Horza Gobochul
Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.05 23:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Horza Gobochul on 05/11/2009 23:15:39
Originally by: Warrio Good idea. While we are at it I would like to hear the justification of faster than light travel. I propose that every ship move from place to place using only its regular engines because when I play a computer game about spaceships, I look for realism.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1209688&page=1#21
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Korizan
Red Mercury Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.11.05 23:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 23:23:17
Originally by: Horza Gobochul When determining the capability of a stargate, it stands to reason to look at the mass as the limiting factor.
IF mass is not the limiting factor then your entire argument falls apart correct ?
http://www.eveonline.com/background/jump/jump_03.asp
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2009.11.06 00:10:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 23:23:17
Originally by: Horza Gobochul When determining the capability of a stargate, it stands to reason to look at the mass as the limiting factor.
IF mass is not the limiting factor then your entire argument falls apart correct ?
http://www.eveonline.com/background/jump/jump_03.asp
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! --------------------------------------------
Quote: EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.06 00:31:00 -
[29]
The Republic, the Federation, the Empire, and the State are more concerned about the repercussions inherent in allowing potentially hostile capital combat ships into their space, and are less concerned about lightly-defended industrial ships, perhaps?
Would you prefer, perhaps, that cyno beacons were authorized in high security space, but that the appearance of any potentially hostile capital-class vessels was immediately responded to by CONCORD?
Come to think of it, this would come as a great opportunity for empire-bound salvagers...
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Yosarian
Koshaku
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Posted - 2009.11.06 00:32:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Yosarian on 06/11/2009 00:32:41 The reason is: the four NPC factions don't allow capsuleer-owned combat-capable capital ships into high sec for security reasons. We are too dangerous.
It has nothing to do with mass.
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