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Anonymous Gallentean
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Posted - 2009.11.07 11:54:00 -
[31]
line of sight damage would bring a whole new dimension to ninja'ing missions
I flew thru ur lazor beam, now I can shoot u hehe.... Or bump ya to death
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Doomed Predator
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.07 12:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Aurora Nyx Line of sight, friendly fire, collision damage... all subject to that special type of lag and de-synch mechanism we get so often in big fights.
Would really make EVE awesome, but the lag, OH GOD THE LAG.... The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.11.07 12:41:00 -
[33]
Ninja Smoke is already in game, its called Covert Ops Cloaking Device II.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2009.11.07 13:35:00 -
[34]
Collision won't work due to high sec, and the extra lag from the calculations, although it may help prevent remote rep hump fests.
LOS won't work because even with large numbers of people due to the full 3d nature of the game it is extremely rare you shoot though another ship, even then the target will die long before you take sufficiant damage in most cases, plus short range ships would suck even more.
The only thing I can see working would be a major overhaul of eve mechanics:
1) make repairs expensive 2) make it fairly easy to disable ship systems (not even if you don't get to pick which systems you shoot at) 3) make it extremely hard to destroy a ship completely.
Then if you focus fire hey you'll take 3 or 4 ships out but your entire fleet will be disabled. Alll you'll be able to do would be warp out and let the guys with disabled warp drives be pummuled to death.
What you'd have to do instead would be make small groups enough to incapacitate ships.
The impact to the rest of the game would be enormas though, so I doubt it'd even be attempted, as a side beinifit though it'd make winning/losing a less 1 or 0 affair you'd at least do some damage to the attackers shiney ship : --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Buhhdust Princess
Reverse Psychology. The Final Stand.
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Posted - 2009.11.07 13:44:00 -
[35]
+1 for ninja smoke
________________________________________
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shi'ako
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.07 13:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Cre'tal Edited by: Cre''tal on 07/11/2009 05:06:45 It wouldn't really affect highsec, because you already get CONCORD'd when you fire on someone. The rules would be no different, unless of course you fired on an outlaw or wartarget and hit a bystander by accident. :-)
A simple solution to that would be add a LOS check option, just like the criminal action one or maybe a 3 option box,
Only fire if shot is clear to locked target Fire if their is no friendly (fleet/blue) between you and target. or
When you chose option one or two your guns hold fire on each volley until their is a clear shot. That would allow people to fight in empire/lowsec, but also duck and dive behind other players to avoid incoming fire.
In 0.0 option 2 and 3 would more come into play.ways, u could just fire into an hostile fleet and hit your target or others, but run the risk of hitting your own guys. So really no one would use option 3, well.. maybe..
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Dabljuh
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Posted - 2009.11.07 13:57:00 -
[37]
EVE is extremely abstract. And I mean that in the bad way. A ship isn't a ship, it's a spherical entity that can move within a small number of predetermined parameters. You don't fly a ship, you give the circular entity one command of a limited list of predetermined commands to which it might respond within a while. Firing a turret at something isn't really firing a turret at something but more of a random deduction in hitpoints at the target in predetermined intervals. Everything else is just the eve client's graphical interpretation of these highly abstract ongoings.
If EVE was a space flight simulator, i.e. less abstract, stuff like friendly fire, bumping damage and so forth could be worked into the game.
However, I feel that the decision was made at the very beginning of the games creation to have this high level of abstraction, in order to allow a huge number of players in a single world.
Yes. I'd like less abstraction. I don't think anyone wouldn't. Even at CCP, I imagine, they're sort of embarassed at the absurd results of some of their abstractions, but it's not possible to change it. You'd have to write a completely different game and then find a viable way to give 50'000 players a high degree of simulation (=less abstraction) at the same time in a persistent universe.
Blob warfare is highly faciliated by this level of abstraction, but not enabled. With all other things being equal, 2 dudes are stronger than 1 dude. It's just not that 2 dudes are twice as strong as 1 dude, since they can't be in the same place at the same time and there's limits to parallelism. Adding a 3rd dude doesn't increase the effectiveness of a 2-man group by 50%.
In EVE, due to the level of abstraction, this Grenznutzen doesn't exist, and 2 people are exactly twice as good as 1 and adding a third makes the 2 man blob 50% stronger. The only downside is lag, but that affects the enemy just as much, and is hence a non-issue.
I remember a game that I played before EVE, it was "Jumpgate, the reconstruction initiative" or something. You flew your ship with a joystick. It was a space sim with trading, sort of a cross between elite and x-wing. I figured it was a much better game than eve, but the graphics were atrocious (somewhere in between x-wing and elite) and eventually the european provider ceased operations.
Ideally I'd want eve's scope and graphics combined with JG:TRIs gameplay. We're nearing the year 2010. Maybe computers and the internet are now powerful enough to pull it off?
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:31:00 -
[38]
so in the end:
whaaa whaaa, the most people wins.
the end.
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2009.11.07 15:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gnulpie Titans are excellent anti-blob weapons!
Oh wait...
Titans are expensive, resulting in only huge alliances (that could easily blob) using them against enemy blobs. I'm glad they aren't anti-blob anymore, it will make new alliances been on closer footing to older ones.
Stealth bombers look like they will be the new anti-blob ships for the underdogs.
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Blastil
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Posted - 2009.11.07 16:00:00 -
[40]
I swear to god every time someone talks about blob warfare, some starry eyed carebear opens his gob about how introducing collision mechanics will solve blob warfare. These is like saying 'allowing cars to crash into each other on the freeway will reduce conjestion!'
ffs, stop proposing this idea. 0.0 Alliance fleets are actually surprisingly spread out affairs, with most pilots flying no closer than 2000M of each other, and often aligned in the same direction at approximately the same speed. all collisions will do is introduce the ability for normal ships doing normal transit to and from stations and through gates to collide and destroy HIGHSEC industry. Suicide gankers will prefer smashing an even CHEEPER battleship with 8 T1 armor plates into a hauler and get their insurance back instead of even fitting GUNS.
the only way, THE ONLY WAY to reduce blob warfare is to promote dividing fleets by requiring multiple objectives to be secured simultaneously for attackers. This actually gives defenders a natural home field advantage. Also to create real targets in PVP which can be damaged by marauding gangs. Ratters and miners used to fill this role until the AFK empire, and titan drive by's became the best way to defend your space.
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Meridius Dex
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.11.07 16:30:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Meridius Dex on 07/11/2009 16:31:37 Discussing this right now in a thread over in W&T. Bottom line:
Damage (and repping) should stack, the scan res of the target should affect the amount of incoming damage and repping before the stacking kicks in.
Problem solved, EVE becomes awesome and moar fun. -- Meridius Dex Visit the Gunship Forums --
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.07 16:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Meridius Dex Edited by: Meridius Dex on 07/11/2009 16:30:51 Discussing this right now in a thread over in W&T. Bottom line:
Damage (and repping) should stack, the scan res of the target should affect the amount of incoming damage and repping before the stacking kicks in.
Problem solved, EVE becomes awesome and moar fun.
No.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Jarik Utoni
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:06:00 -
[43]
NINJA SMOKE!!!
+1 ---- d(^.^)b |
Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:27:00 -
[44]
Its not just nul sec. When I was in FW for a while I lost interest fast. What happens is:
1. x up with some emo chat 2. Roam for ages for targets 3. Find targets 4. If similar size or larger, abort 5. If heavily outnumber attack
That's not PVP with any meaning of risk or skill.
I cant see how CCP can fix this until ship loss becomes almost meaningless which would break the game.
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:34:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zartanic Its not just nul sec. When I was in FW for a while I lost interest fast. What happens is:
1. x up with some emo chat 2. Roam for ages for targets 3. Find targets 4. If similar size or larger, abort 5. If heavily outnumber attack
That's not PVP with any meaning of risk or skill.
I cant see how CCP can fix this until ship loss becomes almost meaningless which would break the game.
On the other hand, you can just avoid horribly lame things like FW altogether.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:44:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 07/11/2009 17:47:17
Originally by: The Crushah I have a brilliant suggestion:
Ninja smoke for solo roamers.
The blob got you? Drop the Ninja smoke! POOF, youre gone!
Do we get to wear those cool outfits?
If you REALLY want to end the Blob, then require that clone vats need as much biomass coming is as is going out.
I refer to the gate camp blob where smart bombs are spammed a lot. This kills frozen corpses.
Corporations who use this tactic, and their clone vats as if it were a COD2 respawn point, will have to change their tactics or go and buy corpses on the market, which will finally have value.
Lest they have to add beef the vats.
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Chiastic Slide
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Posted - 2009.11.07 19:26:00 -
[47]
Honestly I think we have a solution here: collision damage. Case closed. We should advocate for that.
Originally by: Jarna
Originally by: Benedict Carol Simple solution - have ship collisions do *massive* damage.
Net result - blobs are either more spread out or diminished in 0.0. Jita becomes a ship graveyards as people discover the joys of MWDing frigs into freighters. Ships litter the undocking zone in high-traffic systems.
Yeah, if ships had damage on collision, it would definitely spread people more thin.
People always ask when we will get collision detection. We already have it, we just need damage applied.
Of course, coming out of a station would be solved with during that "pushing out" timer, you can't take damage, meaning before 30 seconds is up, you better start moving away from the station.
This also could introduce a neat aspect of kamikaze frigs and stuff. Have like proportional damage based on two colliding ship sizes.
And, obviously, it would force people to spread out in fleet engagements.
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Anghus McQuaid
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.07 19:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Katsuri Minamoto The problem is, people are never inclined to play fair when something of value is at stake. Surprisingly, even in a video game as it would seem.
Only in romantical circumstances (or in sport) is the "fair fight" honored and true. What we see day to day is the nature of real conflict, and it expresses itself in games like EVE as a "BLOB", where it is directly in opposition to the user expectation of fictionalized conflict, where the odds should be kept the same, and for a lack of a better word, "fair".
Adjusting or promoting mechanics to diminish the BLOB as we know it won't realistically solve anything, as player ingenuity will (afterall, this is one thing eve always promotes) inevitably seek out new conventions of exploiting simple numbers, or other aggragate mechanics in their favor.
I really want to see clever ways of thinning people out in Dominion, but I really doubt the simplest and easiest answer as far of tipping odds in your favor won't continue to be to just add more pilots to your fleet.
^^ This!
In other MMOs this phenomenon is referred to as 'zerg'. Just get as many people as you can and overrun the enemy. No strategy at all, just mindlessly tossing in cannon fodder and let the numbers do the work for you.
I can't say I fancy this type of game play, but it is what most people go for. I agree that it would be nicer to see strategic battles of smaller groups, which actually favour a challenge, but those will be few and far between, knowing how the average MMO player likes to 'zerg' or 'blob' (as referred to in EvE).
I recon it is something we will just have to accept. No matter what kind of things CCP changes, blobs will always exist to some extent. All we can do is hope that some day we will not suffer (or at least less) from all the lag that comes with it.
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 20:18:00 -
[49]
Edited by: fuxinos on 07/11/2009 20:19:43
Originally by: Benedict Carol
Simple solution - have ship collisions do *massive* damage.
Net result - blobs are either more spread out or diminished in 0.0. Jita becomes a ship graveyards as people discover the joys of MWDing frigs into freighters. Ships litter the undocking zone in high-traffic systems.
Someone gonna put a frigate at Jita 4/4 and everyone scratching its paint would get concordokend?
Nice isk sink.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.11.07 22:37:00 -
[50]
I think CCP is handling the problem automatically and cleverly in Dominion.
The main idea is to make all 0.0 alliances LESS WEALTHY, and therefore less capable of throwing away huge cap fleet blobs. They try to make capital ships worth something again. There might still be blobs, but of weaker ships, making the playing ground a bit more even.
Well that's what I think anyway
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Meridius Dex
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.11.07 23:11:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Meridius Dex Edited by: Meridius Dex on 07/11/2009 16:30:51 Discussing this right now in a thread over in W&T. Bottom line:
Damage (and repping) should stack, the scan res of the target should affect the amount of incoming damage and repping before the stacking kicks in.
Problem solved, EVE becomes awesome and moar fun.
No.
Good counter-argument, well thought out, intelligent and compelling. -- Meridius Dex Visit the Gunship Forums --
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.08 00:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Meridius Dex
Good counter-argument, well thought out, intelligent and compelling.
Yes, I thought it was the perfect response to your detailed explanation of what is wrong with EVE, how to fix it and what would it result in, I'm glad you agree.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
MaxxOmega
Caldari Wrong Indeed
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Posted - 2009.11.08 00:49:00 -
[53]
I was in a blob once. Her name was "Bertha"...
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MonwrathDisortium
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.11.08 01:00:00 -
[54]
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didnĘt plan your mission properly
Col. David Hackworth, United States Army, Ret.
Give it some thought, people bring what they have at their disposal. Possibly there are alternatives to that but mostly it is up to the players.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong. |
Newbear
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Posted - 2009.11.09 05:49:00 -
[55]
When you jump into a new system from a stargate, you arrive at a random astroid belt. Gives gankers better chance of a kill and disperses blobs across many belts. Don't look at my employment history.
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Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.09 06:24:00 -
[56]
The fleet with most ships wins?
Oh well, that`s only 1/8 of the formula of ownage. But an empire nubbin cannot know better...
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Ratchman
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Posted - 2009.11.09 15:38:00 -
[57]
Why does blobbing happen? Because nobody wants to fight a battle that they might lose.
People could counter blobbing by going out alone more, but they don't. And why's that? Because they fear the blob. Therefore, they start to blob themselves.
Therefore, we have the escalation of warfare. This 'blobbing' only reflects the nature of warfare in real life. The larger force rarely uses tactics, and the smaller one has to in order to stand any kind of a chance (and even then, the odds are stacked against them).
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Hibernator X
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Posted - 2009.11.09 17:32:00 -
[58]
Ripple Laser from Lifeforce. moar multi-target weapons systems.
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Dianna Soreil
Internal Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:54:00 -
[59]
Quote: Lag? Whats that, must be your computer...
people who don't understand the concept of lag itt
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