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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:14:00 -
[721]
Soundwave mate,
You're suggesting 0.0 players grind much, much, more than currently just for "Sovreignty" of much, much, less space.
This is very different to "enabling more emergent gameply in 0.0" as previously advertised and is what many folks are angry about.
You do also realise that with the proposed changes you've made equivalent low-sec moons more valuable than 0.0 ones?
- All hail our new Low Sec Alliance Overlords!
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Speed Freek
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:14:00 -
[722]
Ok, I now like the Anomalies for Ratters. At the moment what is the number of rats that need to be killed to get to each of the 5 Levels? (Will all kills count or only BS? Or will it be isk based?)
Given that most systems only support 1 ratter the critial number will be the first level. Once thats is completed then dedicated teams of ratters can work the system up in level over time.
It would also be nice to have a comment from the Devs on the mining side.
I will leave the Alliance numbers to those that run Alliances
Speed Freek
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CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:15:00 -
[723]
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat Edited by: Sethur Blackcoat on 07/11/2009 14:09:51 itt CCP manages to mirror the Serenity situation by turning all of 0.0 into a single homogeneous group of mutually agreeing alliances.
Seriously though, Stoffer, as long as you're reading this thread, please answer the following poll:
"Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
[ ] Yes [ ] No
CHECK ONE"
Serious question, no troll zone.
Not checkbox, not voting.
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Sethur Blackcoat
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:15:00 -
[724]
Edited by: Sethur Blackcoat on 07/11/2009 14:16:44 Dude it says "Check" right there of course it's a checkbox poll.
Though I'm sure you can't actually answer it honestly for fear of alienating some part of your playerbase no matter what you'd like to choose.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:16:00 -
[725]
lol
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trueblue1872
Gallente DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:16:00 -
[726]
Well how can i put this?
This is fucking shite.
That good enough?
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Itzena
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:16:00 -
[727]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 07/11/2009 13:51:06
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Except for replacing the NPCs, this is pretty much what we're putting in, which is being conveniently ignored in favor of angry theorycrafting. We could replace the NPCs, but at the top tier the sites seeded wil make it financially viable without changing the npcs.
vOv
So basically, you did read my original posts on this exact topic from over a year ago, and completely missed the point of supporting more than three players in a given 0.0 system?
If a system has three anomalies in it at all times, that'll keep three people occupied. Not fifty. Where I come from, that's called basic arithmetic.
When you scan for an anomaly, will it explicitly tell you the difficulty rating?
When you scan for an anomaly, will it explicitly tell you if someone else is already in it?
When you scan for an anomaly, will you automatically get a result you can bookmark remotely?
And when you actually run the anomaly, would the lack of normal valuable belt rats result in you having been better off in Motsu?
When we have 10 anomalies, that will be enough for 10 people. I wrote this earlier in the thread too.
When you scan for an anomaly, that anomaly will be based on your upgrade tier, making a specific number superflous (since the tier collectively replaces that).
You will not be told if anyone is in it, that is not something I would prefer to see implemented.
When you run the highest tiers of anomalies, you will financially be on par with Motsu.
L4 mission can handle (essentially) infinite players, are more individually secure, and provide more effective profit (even with the 10% NPC tax in Dom) due to not having to pay money to maintain the various system upgrades, defence ops, random gankings, etc etc.
So...if 0.0 is, at best, on par with L4s and will almost certainly be worse (to a greater or lesser extent) - why bother with 0.0?
No, really. What's the point of 0.0 post-Dom if CCPs design paradigm is "Once it's fully upgraded it might be as good as running L4s for ten people per system. Maybe"?
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tx eight
Minmatar Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:17:00 -
[728]
Originally by: Verlai So if you can't tell whether or not someone is active in an anomaly, you'll be spending plenty of time simply warping from one anomaly to the next until you hit one that someone else hasn't started using yet as soon as more than a handful of people try to utilize a system.
Sounds like fun.
How is this different from splitting the belts among ratters that is the case right now?
Originally by: Verlai
I'd be thrilled if the system generated a new cosmic anomaly whenever the player desired it, in order to ensure that less time is spent looking for fun than is spent having it.
Fun? Anomalies are for isk, pew is for fun.
Besides, if you have 15 people each doing his own thing in a system, and stepping on each other toes, it's called communication breakdown.
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CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:17:00 -
[729]
Originally by: Speed Freek Ok, I now like the Anomalies for Ratters. At the moment what is the number of rats that need to be killed to get to each of the 5 Levels? (Will all kills count or only BS? Or will it be isk based?)
Given that most systems only support 1 ratter the critial number will be the first level. Once thats is completed then dedicated teams of ratters can work the system up in level over time.
It would also be nice to have a comment from the Devs on the mining side.
I will leave the Alliance numbers to those that run Alliances
Speed Freek
I'd prefer to not give the specifics of the points index, but any NPC in the system counts towards it, so frigates on the gates, NPCs in profession sites etc count.
The mining stuff I'll have to leave to the responsible devs.
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Kushmir
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:18:00 -
[730]
So what do we fight over now?
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Killljoy
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:19:00 -
[731]
Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?
So moon mining shouldn't accually make allainces isk it should just pay for SOV is what your saying.
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:19:00 -
[732]
Originally by: Kushmir So what do we fight over now?
The Motsu undocks |
Morphisat
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:20:00 -
[733]
Originally by: Kushmir So what do we fight over now?
Over who gets to pay the 2bil bill :).
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L'Artest
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:20:00 -
[734]
Edited by: L''Artest on 07/11/2009 14:20:33
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
When we have 10 anomalies, that will be enough for 10 people. I wrote this earlier in the thread too.
When you scan for an anomaly, that anomaly will be based on your upgrade tier, making a specific number superflous (since the tier collectively replaces that).
You will not be told if anyone is in it, that is not something I would prefer to see implemented.
When you run the highest tiers of anomalies, you will financially be on par with Motsu.
I love you man but that's really disapointing. Paying isk to make money on par with level 4 missions? That's not being on par at all.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:22:00 -
[735]
Edited by: Kerfira on 07/11/2009 14:23:58 I think this is actually a great step in the right direction
The structure of the system suggests that it is intended that the corp/alliances holding sov will be entities that're ACTUALLY working together for their common good, not just people who blob together for personal benefit. The comments from most of the big blobber alliances confirms this (particularly the GS posts)! Most of them seems to be from the "Me! Me! MEEEEE!!!!" people who think only of their own profit!
This system will be feasible for close-knit corp/alliances, but for the big blobbers without that core closeness and willingness to work for the common good, it'll be much different. Without the crutch of moon-gold, it'll be much harder to keep the big alliances together when people actually have to contribute!
Most of the upgrades, particularly the DED complex one, should make it fairly easy for a close-knit alliance/corp to claim a few systems to call home. It'll of cause require that the members are willing to give up a good percentage of their earnings to do so, and share in the non-taxable profits from DED's, but again, that rewards REAL teamwork, not just the "lets blob together for protection while we all do our own thing" 'teamwork'!
The upgrade system is probably pre-nerfed until some real data on how many people a system can support is gained. I wouldn't be surprised if the benefits of upgrades gets increased later.
My guess is also that the upkeep system is pre-nerfed, with prices maybe set a bit high. This may also have been done to drain away some of the huge amounts of ISK alliances has gathered from moon mining over the last year or more.
It is entirely possible that CCP deliberately set the price high to force the existing large alliances to pay out from that huge stash of cash for their space, or maybe even crack under the pressure as the contributers turn against the leeches (something which would be a very good thing for the game).
Not sure of this though since the amount of money is still fairly easy to get when you talk 50+ people working together....
A few things that could also contribute would have been: 1. Make costs more incremental with development 2. Until you can upgrade to level 1, you shouldn't have to pay for upkeep 3. Only own corp activities count towards development 4. Increasing upkeep the more systems an alliance/corp claims 5. Moon mining requires sov, BUT moons can also be mined by ships without sov! 6. Same alliance/corp can only claim adjecent systems 7. True-sec being non-static, changing over time 8. Agents in outposts 9. Resources used in 0.0 should be produced there! Nerf empire-to-0.0 logistics!
(number 3 & 4 will be dependent on each other since otherwise we'd see plenty of alt alliances)
Anyway, it looks promising!
As with any completely new system, it'll need adjustments on the way, but so far it looks like it'll be a decent replacement for the COMPLETELY broken system current sov warfare is, with the potential of becoming a very good replacement with adjustments and additions!
Originally by: Nahia Senne Once upon a time, there was no moon goo and alliances got by just fine. Nothing has changed, people just love to whine about anything and everything.
^ This!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Verlai
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:22:00 -
[736]
Edited by: Verlai on 07/11/2009 14:25:31
Originally by: tx eight How is this different from splitting the belts among ratters that is the case right now?
That's my point, if the system was supposed to improve this sort of thing, it doesn't seem designed to do so that effectively.
Originally by: tx eight Fun? Anomalies are for isk, pew is for fun.
Besides, if you have 15 people each doing his own thing in a system, and stepping on each other toes, it's called communication breakdown.
If I'm going to have to go through the hassle of organizing 15 people to ensure we all get comparable income to level four missions, why not just run level four missions without having to worry about organizational problems?
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Angelus Custos
Amarr Electronics
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:24:00 -
[737]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
When you run the highest tiers of anomalies, you will financially be on par with Motsu.
I like most of what you try to do with this, but this sentence really makes no sense.
From a player perspective there is absolutely no incentive NOT to run those lvl 4s in Motsu if this is true.
0.0 brings roaming gangs, afk cloakers in local, inconvenient logistics and a limited market compared to a few jumps from Jita, and 0, Zero, zip, nada benefit?
If you factor in downtime from when you need to stop carebearing due to external threats, the occasional gank and the extra logistics, it's a straight loss to go to 0.0.
So you end up with all carebears in empire just as now, and PvPers in 0.0 still roaming empty space looking for other starving PvPers. Instead of PvPers fighting defending their own and killing the other sides hoards of juicy fat carebears assembling to graze on the fat land of 0.0?
Notice I talk about the player here, not the alliance. Alliances will still claim empty space if moons and whatnot makes it worth it, but no-one will populate those systems unless they themselves benefits from it, and with rewards on par with Motsu they don't.
EvE players love to do the maths, some poorly some with great skill. Unlesss the math undisputedly say you make more ISK/hour in 0.0 compared to Motsu in the long run, counting getting ganked now and then and all other quirks of 0.0, then this will fail just like all other attempts to populate 0.0. And unless alliances share their moon mining profits with the little rental guy (aka when it snows in hel) those just don't count in this equation.
And I just don't see this equation holding up. Motsu in own corp with 0% tax >>>>>> Motsu - hide from gank blob - landlord tax - loss of occasional ship - effort of 0.0
Turn that equation, or nothing will happen on a fundamental level.
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Killljoy
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:24:00 -
[738]
Will annomly now have a chance to drop faction loot? Cause thats alot of what ratting is about.
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Vivian Azure
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:24:00 -
[739]
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 14:25:31
Originally by: Itzena
Originally by: CCP Soundwave Edited by: CCP Soundwave on 07/11/2009 13:51:06
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Except for replacing the NPCs, this is pretty much what we're putting in, which is being conveniently ignored in favor of angry theorycrafting. We could replace the NPCs, but at the top tier the sites seeded wil make it financially viable without changing the npcs.
vOv
So basically, you did read my original posts on this exact topic from over a year ago, and completely missed the point of supporting more than three players in a given 0.0 system?
If a system has three anomalies in it at all times, that'll keep three people occupied. Not fifty. Where I come from, that's called basic arithmetic.
When you scan for an anomaly, will it explicitly tell you the difficulty rating?
When you scan for an anomaly, will it explicitly tell you if someone else is already in it?
When you scan for an anomaly, will you automatically get a result you can bookmark remotely?
And when you actually run the anomaly, would the lack of normal valuable belt rats result in you having been better off in Motsu?
When we have 10 anomalies, that will be enough for 10 people. I wrote this earlier in the thread too.
When you scan for an anomaly, that anomaly will be based on your upgrade tier, making a specific number superflous (since the tier collectively replaces that).
You will not be told if anyone is in it, that is not something I would prefer to see implemented.
When you run the highest tiers of anomalies, you will financially be on par with Motsu.
L4 mission can handle (essentially) infinite players, are more individually secure, and provide more effective profit (even with the 10% NPC tax in Dom) due to not having to pay money to maintain the various system upgrades, defence ops, random gankings, etc etc.
So...if 0.0 is, at best, on par with L4s and will almost certainly be worse (to a greater or lesser extent) - why bother with 0.0?
No, really. What's the point of 0.0 post-Dom if CCPs design paradigm is "Once it's fully upgraded it might be as good as running L4s for ten people per system. Maybe"?
Seriously... if CCP would've wanted 0.0 to be more profitable then LvL 4's in empire, they would've allready done so in the past 4 years by simply giving the rats two or three times the bounty of the ships in missions.
Guess what... they didn't because they don't want 0.0 to be superior to empire in terms of ISK. 0.0 is there for you to claim space and fight against other likeminded people etc.
0.0 is there to have a space that can be marked as your space, which you can call "home" then.
Originally by: Killljoy
Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?
So moon mining shouldn't accually make allainces isk it should just pay for SOV is what your saying.
I see, we have a winner.
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Kraken Kill
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:25:00 -
[740]
Why do FLAGs have any Fee at all? Remove this Fee COMPLETELY. whatever for the upgrades, It shouldnt cost ELEVENTY BILLION to claim a system.
Ok MR 0.0 can hope to be as good as motsu someday- 10 people per system max with MAXED out upgrades. k savvy. 2b a month? wait wut. so atlas has about 2500 members. say we can get 400 on at a time. we need to have 40 systems fully upgraded to support these guys. at 2b a month. so we need to splash out 80 billion a month on 40 systems. Moon minerals are supposed to pay for this?
Its ****** math but all the same why are 0.0 alliances being punished for being successful and claiming areas using sov? why does it cost something? Im sure-
EVERYONE Would rather manage towers to claim sov and have it be left EXACTLY as it is than this alternative. Just Turn off Sov 4 and only have it going to 3 and we are all set. I dont want to upgrade a system, no one does. its too expensive, id rather just probe around or find a quiet system to myself to rat then have to meet CCP imposed Quotas on ratting and mining.
If we live in Omist which is 4 Cyno Jumps from empire you are saying its more cost effective to get a new account paid with a GTC (60 days @ 550m) and train up 3 cyno alts on it stick them at 3 of the jump routes. Works out to hm, 90m a month for the Cyno Alt? somewhat cheaper than sticking up a cyno gen now.
This is how rediculous the system is that you have. Remove the 20m a day (WTF) fee from the TCU/FLAGs COMPLETELY. Whats it for? Its just an Isk Sink restricting ANYONE who holds space to want to take anymore space. |
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:27:00 -
[741]
One other serious concern - What about the Drone Regions?
No NPC bounty or direct income.... Paying billions just for Sovreignty? I doubt it.
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Klebitz
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:28:00 -
[742]
as i see it any alliance that has to pay anything for sov is screw'd. at least corporations have bounty taxes, alliances have nothing to support them. in the end 0.0 will be run by ppl who sell gtc's. great job ccp u screw'd up again, u've killed off the little guy in favor of the super rich.
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KUINNI
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:28:00 -
[743]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave They will not be titan level investments, I can assure you that.
so, if only for current brigde map of one ally needed about 60-70b every month - it's not titan level investments?
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Kushmir
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:29:00 -
[744]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 07/11/2009 14:23:58 I think this is actually a great step in the right direction
The structure of the system suggests that it is intended that the corp/alliances holding sov will be entities that're ACTUALLY working together for their common good, not just people who blob together for personal benefit. The comments from most of the big blobber alliances confirms this (particularly the GS posts)! Most of them seems to be from the "Me! Me! MEEEEE!!!!" people who think only of their own profit!
This system will be feasible for close-knit corp/alliances, but for the big blobbers without that core closeness and willingness to work for the common good, it'll be much different. Without the crutch of moon-gold, it'll be much harder to keep the big alliances together when people actually have to contribute!
Most of the upgrades, particularly the DED complex one, should make it fairly easy for a close-knit alliance/corp to claim a few systems to call home. It'll of cause require that the members are willing to give up a good percentage of their earnings to do so, and share in the non-taxable profits from DED's, but again, that rewards REAL teamwork, not just the "lets blob together for protection while we all do our own thing" 'teamwork'!
The upgrade system is probably pre-nerfed until some real data on how many people a system can support is gained. I wouldn't be surprised if the benefits of upgrades gets increased later.
My guess is also that the upkeep system is pre-nerfed, with prices maybe set a bit high. This may also have been done to drain away some of the huge amounts of ISK alliances has gathered from moon mining over the last year or more.
It is entirely possible that CCP deliberately set the price high to force the existing large alliances to pay out from that huge stash of cash for their space, or maybe even crack under the pressure as the contributers turn against the leeches (something which would be a very good thing for the game).
Not sure of this though since the amount of money is still fairly easy to get when you talk 50+ people working together....
A few things that could also contribute would have been: 1. Make costs more incremental with development 2. Until you can upgrade to level 1, you shouldn't have to pay for upkeep 3. Only own corp activities count towards development 4. Increasing upkeep the more systems an alliance/corp claims 5. Moon mining requires sov, BUT moons can also be mined by ships without sov! 6. Same alliance/corp can only claim adjecent systems 7. True-sec being non-static, changing over time 8. Agents in outposts 9. Resources used in 0.0 should be produced there! Nerf empire-to-0.0 logistics!
(number 3 & 4 will be dependent on each other since otherwise we'd see plenty of alt alliances)
Anyway, it looks promising!
As with any completely new system, it'll need adjustments on the way, but so far it looks like it'll be a decent replacement for the COMPLETELY broken system current sov warfare is, with the potential of becoming a very good replacement with adjustments and additions!
Originally by: Nahia Senne Once upon a time, there was no moon goo and alliances got by just fine. Nothing has changed, people just love to whine about anything and everything.
^ This!
I'm sorry to break this too you, but with the whole Treaty thing they are working on, you are exactly what big blob alliances are looking for. Willing pubbies who will use the systems they are allowed to have to the fullest and pay some rent back to their overlords who will threaten them with eviction and destruction of their upgrades if they don't pay up. Welcome to Slumlord Online.
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Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:30:00 -
[745]
It also worth noting that with POS sov claims we can dictate our own costs relative to a system; as previously stated the vast amount of space larger alliances claim is not an actual intent but a result of corporation / corporation members setting up small/med towers for niche operations such as personal ratting, mining or plexing towers.
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CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:32:00 -
[746]
Originally by: L'Artest Edited by: L''Artest on 07/11/2009 14:20:33
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
When we have 10 anomalies, that will be enough for 10 people. I wrote this earlier in the thread too.
When you scan for an anomaly, that anomaly will be based on your upgrade tier, making a specific number superflous (since the tier collectively replaces that).
You will not be told if anyone is in it, that is not something I would prefer to see implemented.
When you run the highest tiers of anomalies, you will financially be on par with Motsu.
I love you man but that's really disapointing. Paying isk to make money on par with level 4 missions? That's not being on par at all.
I love you too
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Guru
Woopatang Primary.
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:33:00 -
[747]
Its iffy at best CCP. It has to be worth it, or people wont do it, and people wont fight for it... Theres lots of good points, and some bad in this thread so I wont rehash them. I will just say this:
Its fine if the cost is high, but the reward also has to be higher then empire... or start low and scale up the costs at minimum.
You have to give people a really good reason to go fight for space, because most people are naturally lazy and wont do something that requires this much effort "just because"... and tbh they are smart.
Tweak what you got to fit the higher reward for the efforts spent and you will see people fight over space.
The idea of bringing people to 0.0 is a good one.. but I dont think this will do it. In fact it might result in quite the opposite effect. I wont bash it till I have tried it...lol.. but think hard about what you are trying to achieve and I think you come to the same conclusion that I did.. "iffy at best"
Looking forward to some tweaking.
"Mind Over Matter: If I don't mind, it don't matter." WWW.EVE-WOOPATANG.COM |
Dastycakes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:34:00 -
[748]
I like the idea of the whole multiple people using the same solar system. I would love it if a single system could maintain enough stuff to do for 30-40 people all day long. Its a great idea and something i have been very excited over.
What i read in the blog is not what you told us about before. The upgrades need to be greater. We need massive amounts of hidden belts and static complexes that recharge every hour. Things like that that give many people many different things to do in the same system. You cant throw pvp corps into a system and expect them to mine. They will just spread out and continue to use the massive amounts of space the large alliances hold minus the sov tickers and hubs. In essence the only thing you have changed is doltans sov map.
I understand and agree with the cost of a station system should be the equivelent of 5 large towers but in a normal solar system, no one will be able to pay such a large fee especialy a smaller alliance or corp.
I want to see a massive amount of new alliances and corps to branch out to 00. I want you CCP to do a better job to make this happen cause right now it looks like fail.
Think bigger, think better and get smarter.
There are some goons -dastommy79 |
L'Artest
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:34:00 -
[749]
It's no fun when your opponent goes home because they don't have the money to hold ground instead of crushing them yourself~
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CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.07 14:34:00 -
[750]
Originally by: KUINNI
Originally by: CCP Soundwave They will not be titan level investments, I can assure you that.
so, if only for current brigde map of one ally needed about 60-70b every month - it's not titan level investments?
It was my impression he was speaking about buying infrastructure upgrades, and not the upkeep cost. If so, I misunderstood.
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