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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Tesal
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Posted - 2009.11.10 07:24:00 -
[2791]
Originally by: NickSuccorso
I'm sure CCP is very happy that you're taking an interest in their corporate budget, but this ranks up there with "I'm going to cancel all 14 of my accounts if this isn't fixed RIGHT NOW" in the pantheon of really bad arguing. Other than that, your post actually makes me pretty disappointed in everyone's effort in this thread. This is at least as big as the other issues there, barring T20 and moongate, yet isn't garnering near the amount of outraged keyboard mashing.
Plenty of outrage, just not much rational discussion.
I partly agree with Gnulpie, the game should not require grinding just to live in a place. That very much goes against the tradition in EvE. What is next, grinding for skills? What happens if you have to fight a large war and don't have time to rat for a month? They should drop that part of this. The time based part will still work for purchasing upgrades.
I also agree with Verone, in his post.
Originally by: Verone
Mikal, I'm happy to disappoint, and I'll give a response along with a response to the quotes above.
CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding, and all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.
This change to mechanics isn't going to happen overnight with the launch of Dominion. It's a massive overhaul of how Eve operates, and it instantaneously affects TENS OF THOUSANDS of players the second Dominion goes live. It's not a case of changing the slot layout of a ship, or tweaking its stats. It's potentially game breaking on the most fundamental of levels.
The fact of the matter is, giving too much reward too soon would give the game's economy a massive heart attack. Of course CCP are going to implement it with pre-nerfed rewards. Its going to be monitored, tweaked, worked on, fiddled with and monitored some more before they're happy with it. Something this big as a change in game isn't going to be complete overnight, its part of the core of the game.
Its going to take time to balance it and watch to see how Eve reacts to it. This kind of thing is so large that its impossible to test on a development server. It has to be done in live play, because its not possible to simulate the effects of play on the scale of TQ on any of the test servers. The only thing that they can do is make sure the mechanics work fully.
0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out. Its just going to take time to implement and the best way to do it is by pre-nerfing the rewards until the dust settles around the launch of Dominion and CCP can see how alliances react to the new mechanics.
I wouldn't be surprised if over time the rewards get better, but for now all they're doing is playing it safe to make sure that they don't totally butt**** the game's economy by pouring trillions of ISK into the market because they made a bad call on the rewards for sov...
Sov in 0.0 is badly broken. It has to be fixed. Waiting is not an option I am afraid. The people claiming they will quit eve over this are outnumbered by the people actually quitting eve under the current system. The supernaps, the moon gold, the cap ships, pos wars and so on are strangling the game. This is a huge risk by CCP. But to stay where we are now will mean we die. If we move forward there is a chance.
I think I can shorten this and add an appropriate amount of invective so that it translates into troll, a language Goons can understand.
You must die so that EvE can live. Now die!
never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 07:57:00 -
[2792]
What incentives are CCP adding in the proposed changes for empire dwellers to consider or commit to moving from empire and living in 0.0? |
Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:11:00 -
[2793]
Originally by: Hertford What incentives are CCP adding in the proposed changes for empire dwellers to consider or commit to moving from empire and living in 0.0?
Same as before. Battleship rats you don't need massive faction standing to kill and Exotic Ores in abundance.
It's just that now more Alliances may need the Taxes/Rents and may have to more actively court either new kinds of members or maybe another renter alliance.
At least that how I think It's going...
I could imagine a maybe one or two new alliances yoinking suddenly SOV less constellations of minuscule value somewhere maybe.
But hey, it would be a chance for new blood if they was feisty enough.
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Chantacas
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:21:00 -
[2794]
Simply as a paying customer, CCP need to listen up.
Risk must be compatible with reward. This simply isnt the case with the new proposals.
How about allowing afk cloakers in motsu that can shoot anyone without concorde interfering?
I predict recons will be the most used 0.0 ships in dominion. Nice one ccp.
I'll be flying one; in a fully upgraded system near you.
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gambrinous
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:23:00 -
[2795]
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 06:30:51
Gnulpie writes: "POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!
The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes etc."
thumbs up, you forgot faction ship changes/additions
ccp, give yourselves a pat on the back for that much and go back to the drawing board (read that as fix the code that is broken to allow yourselves to do what you already know is right) re sov and 0.0 upgrades.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:31:00 -
[2796]
Originally by: Chantacas Simply as a paying customer, CCP need to listen up.
Risk must be compatible with reward. This simply isnt the case with the new proposals.
How about allowing afk cloakers in motsu that can shoot anyone without concorde interfering?
I predict recons will be the most used 0.0 ships in dominion. Nice one ccp.
I'll be flying one; in a fully upgraded system near you.
I await you and your 7 Redeemers.
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NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 08:45:00 -
[2797]
Quote: Sov in 0.0 is badly broken. It has to be fixed. Waiting is not an option I am afraid. The people claiming they will quit eve over this are outnumbered by the people actually quitting eve under the current system. The supernaps, the moon gold, the cap ships, pos wars and so on are strangling the game. This is a huge risk by CCP. But to stay where we are now will mean we die. If we move forward there is a chance.
I think I can shorten this and add an appropriate amount of invective so that it translates into troll, a language Goons can understand.
You must die so that EvE can live. Now die!
People keep saying this as if current 0.0 alliance members in this thread aren't in agreement that the current sovereignty system and moon gold is out of whack. Everybody knows that **** needs to change, and everybody has known that it's coming. We all welcome the change, and the original vision of 0.0 filling up with many alliances reaching for the brass ring while territories and pos responsibilities shrink makes us smile. We don't like how they plan to go about it right now, because it's going to strangle these small alliances, and make very little change to the territorial situation in 0.0.
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Sethur Blackcoat
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:19:00 -
[2798]
Good morning dear CCP devs, are you ready for another day of avoiding player feedback questions?
Here I'll give you one to start you off with:
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
I look forward to not seeing a reply from you!
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Elymi
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:21:00 -
[2799]
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat Good morning dear CCP devs, are you ready for another day of avoiding player feedback questions?
Here I'll give you one to start you off with:
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
I look forward to not seeing a reply from you!
YES OR NO: "I am hungry"
You don't have a question, you have a statement.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:22:00 -
[2800]
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat Good morning dear CCP devs, are you ready for another day of avoiding player feedback questions?
Here I'll give you one to start you off with:
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
I look forward to not seeing a reply from you!
Originally by: Kepakh What effort? Jumping through gate in a shuttle? Should I be paid for that? 1 hour of jumping through 0.0 gates making me +45M? It is indeed increased risk to move around 0.0 as well as logistical challenge.
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Llone Kila
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:25:00 -
[2801]
The prices are alittle too much even for the new people.. My alliance does not even hold sov and this will make us never want to.
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IR Scoutar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:28:00 -
[2802]
What i want to know is if say you have a good constelation with -0.8 and lower truesec will them upgrades will make your system even better while others in the rest of the ****ty solar systems (90% of 0.0 ) struggle to barely make it better ?
or will truesec be completly dumped ?
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Solar Blade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:37:00 -
[2803]
Edited by: Solar Blade on 10/11/2009 09:42:58 People complain CCP doesn't respond to their questions, or doesn't think about their upgrades.
Others have been saying something needs to change about the current system forever but now its actually happening all I see is whining.
------
CCP does look at this thread, they would be stupid to ignore player feedback or worries and I'm sure they are highly aware of the problems. (I feel sorry for the guy who has to do this though)
That CCP doesn't respond to this thread is simple. For every comment they make on a persons questions 30 more people jump on the DEV and say he's nuts. do this 10 more times and they won't even bother to respond. AFAIK this has been happening so much over the years CCP just said, well lets only respond when we really have to and for the rest just see what people have to say.
Also, People want change but expect perfection, there isn't such a thing. whatever changes there are, good or bad, they can never be perfect or they would have been done allready. All you can do is get as close as possible and then improve on it, especially with a change of this magnitude.
An example... During a certain situation last year people wanted change. One year later there is change, but everyone is now screaming high and low that this change will only bring doom upon them.
People don't think about what good thing the change WILL bring anymore, only what bad things it CAN bring.
CCP KNOWS what they are doing. They've been doing it for years. And with the complexity that is eve-online, I think we can at least put some faith in them this will all turn out fine.
If CCP were to listen to every player in eve and not follow their own vision for the game world everyone would be flying titans right now, have "500 million isk" rats in 1.0 systems and ganking would be A-OK in all of highsec without concord.
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IskDigger
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:44:00 -
[2804]
I think this will be counter-productive to your goals. We will see alliances holding sov for a couple of station-systems and leave any other systems for a 5-system radius unclaimed. And they will make sure no one else claims them either. the only 0.0 systems being worth the trouble are those that arn't paid for.
Anyone else see this scenario becoming a reality?
on the other hand WH-space just became AWESOME in comparison. but since that wasn't the goal, it's all still fail.
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Sethur Blackcoat
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:46:00 -
[2805]
Originally by: Solar Blade CCP KNOWS what they are doing. They've been doing it for years.
boot.ini
(Yes it's a strawman and hyperbole but what I'm saying is that even with good intentions you can mess up and do something wrong and it seems that is what happened here)
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Locii
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:47:00 -
[2806]
Originally by: Solar Blade
CCP KNOWS what they are doing.
you are joking arnt you?
we are still dealing with so many bugs that ccp knows about but seem unable to do anything about. we suffer with so many half finished projects that they implmented and just never fixed.
the sov mechanic will be just that, a half arsed system that wont get fixed for years to come, if ever. so many parts are missing for the first patch, no treaties, no way of taking more isk of alliances for holding more space( 1 system 1 mil, 2 systems 3 mil, 3 systems 6 mil etc etc) like they said there would be.
ccp are a joke most of the time tbh only reason im still playing after 4 and half years is there is still nothing like this as a space game out there. soon as there is something that allows people to shoot other people in the face, while in a space ship, you know we will all give it a go.
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Altaica Amur
Ichizoku
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Posted - 2009.11.10 09:47:00 -
[2807]
A few things strike me about the changes being made to sov and the adjustments being made in this thread as well as the counter-arguments being offered. For one there's a lack of balance in the approach thusfar to changing sov mechanics. From one end the prices for keeping sov and the mechanics associated with such came pre-buffed, very high and costly, presumably to push the big alliances out of space they weren't using but the current system isn't particularly good at doing that. Some of the proposed ideas that encourage higher costs for higher numbers of systems or lower costs for well-used systems could help here. One the other side the benefits of this new system seem to be 'pre-nerfed' an approach that CCP seems to be heading towards, with some good reason but the slowness with which things are un-nerfed makes one wonder what chaos might reign in 0.0 in the interim.
I think that one step in the right direction would be to make all 0.0 rats, be they in a complex, anomaly or otherwise have the full belt rat value both in drops and bounty to help compete with lvl4s. Reducing the number of poor spawns in space that should be able to do better would also be a step in the right direction if you want to increase the concentration of players in a system. In spite of what some here are saying about faction gear suffering price drops with over harvesting of exploration content I would point out that this is also an innate nerf to LP as that's one of the sources for the same faction modules.
Personally I think that with the changes to pirate faction ships on one hand and the expansion of capital and super-capital ships in the game has expanded demand for faction drops without improving the production of such a push to improve the amount of faction gear acquired through exploration and perhaps ratting may well provide an answer to improve 0.0 income while suppressing rising faction-gear costs.
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Hallan Turrek
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:02:00 -
[2808]
Just holding sov in a system will cost you 600 million. Holding sov and upgrading a system will cost a billion. It's only if you want to cynojam and jump bridge that the costs start to skyrocket. This will not deter smaller alliances from taking a piece of the pie(since a lot of pieces will be left on the plate now), and it will encourage people to fight more often.
You'll see more alliances taking just one system and holding it. And using it.
I like these changes. ________________________________________ A merry life and a short one shall be my motto. Bartholomew Roberts
Check out my blog. |
gambrinous
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:08:00 -
[2809]
Originally by: Solar Blade Edited by: Solar Blade on 10/11/2009 09:42:58 People complain CCP doesn't respond to their questions, or doesn't think about their upgrades.
Others have been saying something needs to change about the current system forever but now its actually happening all I see is whining.
CCP KNOWS what they are doing. They've been doing it for years. And with the complexity that is eve-online, I think we can at least put some faith in them this will all turn out fine.
CCP stated it was impossible to group weapons
oh look, grouped weapons
be thankful for the "whining" (this is the exact same thing, ccp is saying legacy code is preventing them from addressing the real problems of 0.0)
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Tyr Aeron
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:12:00 -
[2810]
Wow, instead of moving our alliance out to 0.0, I think we'll stay in empire and keep missioning, mining, and producing. With the sov costs CCP is proposing, I give it 6 months before my alliance has more ISK than Goon & AAA combined. In a year, 0.0 will be a deserted wasteland you go to for PvP. Friggin' genious. I'm thinking CCP's decision making process started with jello shots and ended wiping the vomit off their shoes with our subscription money. Awsome.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:16:00 -
[2811]
Originally by: NickSuccorso
Quote: Sov in 0.0 is badly broken. It has to be fixed. Waiting is not an option I am afraid. The people claiming they will quit eve over this are outnumbered by the people actually quitting eve under the current system. The supernaps, the moon gold, the cap ships, pos wars and so on are strangling the game. This is a huge risk by CCP. But to stay where we are now will mean we die. If we move forward there is a chance.
I think I can shorten this and add an appropriate amount of invective so that it translates into troll, a language Goons can understand.
You must die so that EvE can live. Now die!
People keep saying this as if current 0.0 alliance members in this thread aren't in agreement that the current sovereignty system and moon gold is out of whack. Everybody knows that **** needs to change, and everybody has known that it's coming. We all welcome the change, and the original vision of 0.0 filling up with many alliances reaching for the brass ring while territories and pos responsibilities shrink makes us smile. We don't like how they plan to go about it right now, because it's going to strangle these small alliances, and make very little change to the territorial situation in 0.0.
I accept the premise set out in Verone's post. I think it is spot on. This isn't to say I agree with everything CCP is doing. I trust however that the current changes are not the last word. They are the pre-nerfed version of what is to come. I take that on faith, and with the knowledge that CCP has every reason to see this succeed. If they fail, its over.
never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist |
zelalot
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:50:00 -
[2812]
Edited by: zelalot on 10/11/2009 10:52:25 ever thought about just increasing the ~ of moons and making it so a region of space can sustain its self without having to trek system upon system to complete a complex reaction?
Just in hind sight it would mean in x amount of systems you could produce all the simple / complex reactions you need to sustain any sort of manufacturing, whilst making pos engagements strategic, not just about the high end. The problem I am seeing is once your in 0.0 unless you land the good moons to manufacture ships you are constantly shipping backwards and forwards which is another reason why the blob alliances have continued to influence 0.0, they have the ISK backing regardless of being 25 jumps out of the space they occupy. thats the problem right there if you live in a region you should only be allowed to farm those systems right there. The game has become all about greed and "dont worry i can make the 6 - 700 mill needed for my time card from this pos right here oh and if you try to take over it, i got my mates who i can give a ship to becuase i am on a high end back in my own region".
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Zerakix
Minmatar LEAP Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.10 10:59:00 -
[2813]
Originally by: Marlona Sky What the eve community needs is an elected body by the players that voices concerns to CCP. People that 'represent' the eve community. People that tell CCP what we want to see and not be there for selfish reasons and such. People that truly want to represent the EVE community and not want just free stuff like trips to events and things.
What do you guys think?
Hehe might work but them NDAs make it unlikely since it would be such a small pool of people giving feed back on it that it's bound to go over badly when it finally goes public. Might even say you wouldn't want anyone who gave positive feed back on this in a position to have any more say or help in guiding future patch development on behalf of the players.
Love the sig though I fail. |
gambrinous
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:03:00 -
[2814]
Originally by: Tesal I accept the premise set out in Verone's post. I think it is spot on. This isn't to say I agree with everything CCP is doing. I trust however that the current changes are not the last word. They are the pre-nerfed version of what is to come. I take that on faith, and with the knowledge that CCP has every reason to see this succeed. If they fail, its over.
One can only hope, but I fear if they go ahead we will just end up worse off in 12 months because they will regurgitate the current excuses they do now: "legacy code, can't change it"
I noticed on about day 3 (ok more than that, eve is hard) they had problems. Things like ending up at the same dialogue box, but one was modal while the other wasn't, for e.g. If you want a nice example to try: notice how sentries will often not follow orders. Other drones will, but not sentries. The code to attack should be the same for all drones, but obviously it isn't. This is their major hurdle. Legacy code that programmers don't like playing with (who can blame them - it is not fun).
I think it's been mentioned before in this thread, this is the problem CCP faces with the sov patch. They believe it is too hard to fix what needs to be fixed, and are applying bandaids and duct tape in whatever form they can find them on the shelf.
I was really looking forward to this patch, but I would rather wait till next one and see it done properly.
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Hebril Amolebin
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:11:00 -
[2815]
Edited by: Hebril Amolebin on 10/11/2009 11:14:41 I still see people saying we O.O people whine. God sake
We do not whine we just ask the questions which should be asked.
Let see the upgrades - 1 more belt in system/in the moment gravimetric sites are fail pure fail noone mine them because in most roids there is only 1-2 cycles for the miners/ -2 more anomalies,if they are static they will get abused done again and again,but also the big money are not in the anomalies but in the escalations you possibly get. Does it happen frequently no,does it always reward you no. Yes sometimes you strike gold get A type or some bpc but if you compare time to effort and reward it is low income
People think small aliances will come in our space,only if we allow them,we will still roam our regions and these next to us more people arround us mean more targets. And why should empire corp or aliance pay 2 bil to upgrade fully a system that can't even sustain its upkeep
Lets take example : a -40 system in detorid with 30 belts,average spawn is 600-1 mil rat,no high end roids and low class anomalies and plexes mostly. If the upgrades were made right way this system would have become a heaven for isk making but with proposed changes it will be hell,and burn out ratting just to keep the cost of holding it.
I thought isk should be easy to make in o.o but it goes the other way with dominion,ok wwe will all start fly t1 fited bs and bc but why not fly our shiney zealots and ect. Moongold is gone, sov poses ect will eat a lot of money so no reimbusement programs,so losing ship will make you go to belts for a while when you just was able to pvp before.
This is what makes me shake my head. Why would i fit my geddon for 200 mil,with the basic rr fit,when i can either do it for 100 mil with lame t1 fit without rigs ect. I thought 0.0 is for the elite players with skills willing to get the reward when fighting and defending it.
In the moment i wonder why i shoot 1000+ poses taking over detorid and ect, just to have my corp and aliance burn out weird money for the space that we hold with our own right. If someone want to take it from us let them come take it in force as we did.
Hm seemed i posted with alt. Either way my main is in Atlas and my corp is prio.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:17:00 -
[2816]
Wanna see whining? Cut bounties in missions by 80% and remove all non salvage loot from them as well.
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Mookuh
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:28:00 -
[2817]
Probably this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it:
Won't the drone regions be completely shafted by this system?
You don't get any bounties whatsoever from them, just minerals, which players have to pay you for, else your sov will collapse, because you didn't pay your fee to...eh...hmm... who maintains the Stargates in the drone regions again? I was gonna say drones, but a wise man once told me that Drones are not interested in politics (which is not even true according to some backstories, they 'infested' political leaders and interfered with politics in some EON story) or money.
I'm not too familiar with the drone regions, but are there even DED plexes there? If so, what do they actually give? Faction Drone BPCs and components? Does CCP really believe that any Alliance is willing to make the sale of faction drones (that are so unused that Alliance Tournement commentators didn't even know they existed) their primary source of income? Along with minerals which are at the lowest possible price? (You can buy a Battleship in Jita/Amarr, insure it, blow it up, make some ISK + salvage)
The DED-Plex upgrade will likely be a complete waste in these systems... Likewise, are there even Drone hacking or Archeology sites? As I said, my knowledge of the drone regions is limited, but it looks like they will get royally screwered by much more expensive space holding and nothing (yes, that's even less than elsewhere) that's worth mentioning in return?
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Terry 'Mookuh' Hijakosji CAIN Public Relations |
Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:30:00 -
[2818]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Wanna see whining? Cut bounties in missions by 80% and remove all non salvage loot from them as well.
Remove jump bridges/jump portals/jump freighters and kill cargo bays/corporate hangars/ship maintenance bays on carriers, moms and titans and we have a deal. In exchange i could even pass with ship bays on freighters.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:47:00 -
[2819]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Wanna see whining? Cut bounties in missions by 80% and remove all non salvage loot from them as well.
Remove jump bridges/jump portals/jump freighters and kill cargo bays/corporate hangars/ship maintenance bays on carriers, moms and titans and we have a deal. In exchange i could even pass with ship bays on freighters.
And this here is a prime example of what I am talking about.
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Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:52:00 -
[2820]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/11/2009 11:54:28
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Wanna see whining? Cut bounties in missions by 80% and remove all non salvage loot from them as well.
Remove jump bridges/jump portals/jump freighters and kill cargo bays/corporate hangars/ship maintenance bays on carriers, moms and titans and we have a deal. In exchange i could even pass with ship bays on freighters.
And this here is a prime example of what I am talking about.
This is prime example of bull**** you and other members of 0.0 are spewing around. "life in 0.0 is risky" "life in 0.0 is hard" "logistics in 0.0 are hard".
No, they are not. They WERE hard few years ago, before freighters were introduced. Freighters helped a lot but they still needed to be escorted (risk part). Nowadays 0.0 is almost risk free, easy to get rich area of the game with **** easy logistics. Jump carrier to random system, npc/plex/whatever around, jump back to empire. Basically - no chance someone will nab you on the way. When you use POSes as landing point or jump bridges to travel it gets even easier faster.
So your "example of what I am talking about" is just another typical rhetorics of most 0.0 allies that has almost no coverage in reality.
EDIT: and on topic. CCP dropped down the sov costs then i guess there really is no need anymore to put 100's of players in system or even try it. Instead of fixing the amount of players per system issue so it justifies the cost you wanted lower cost. So vice versa - lower cost = no need to have many players working for the sys = we are back at status quo. Clap, clap, whole point of expansion got just screwed over.
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