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Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
351
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Posted - 2012.06.13 22:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Klandi wrote:What can an ice miner do
A: An iceminer would mine all the ice he could if a iceminer could mine ice!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Why does the Hulk need more grid to fit more tank if it can already tank plenty to make it unprofitable to gank it? Use the t2 resists, fit an MSE and tank the resists with an eye for blaster damage and you'll make it fairly expensive to gank you.
If you leave EM resist hole you give that Thrasher pilot a chance.
Actually Coercer could be used to solo gank it too. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1290
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bossy Lady wrote:It's pretty much impossible to tank a Mack in a worthwhile way. It's a legitimate issue IMO. 21k EHP is meaningful, and nicely protects the Mack against that much-maligned solo destroyer. In slightly higher sec than 0.5, you'll probably even survive two of themGǪ
In the ice systems I roam for my business I have seen *1* solo ice miner ganker in 2 months. All the others always bring in 2 or 3 catalysts. So no, it's not gonna work for the majority of the cases.
To the OP: your most immediate option is to die. A mack is a farce, an Hulk can ice mine almost as good but with 30% more tank. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7924
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:In the ice systems I roam for my business I have seen *1* solo ice miner ganker in 2 months. All the others always bring in 2 or 3 catalysts. So no, it's not gonna work for the majority of the cases. Group together; bring logi.
The OP mentioned wanting to be safe from a destroyer; 21k EHP will do that admirably. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The OP mentioned wanting to be safe from a destroyer; 21k EHP will do that admirably.
Not enough against 3. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7924
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:The OP mentioned wanting to be safe from a destroyer; 21k EHP will do that admirably. Not enough against 3. Irrelevant.
Also, bring logi.
Oh and: are there any 0.7 ice mining systems? If so, then yes, it will indeed survive three of them. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers.
Tippia wrote:Oh and: are there any 0.7 ice mining systems? If so, then yes, it will indeed survive three of them.
They bring more fire power. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7924
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. So don't. Also: irrelevant.
Quote:They bring more fire power. Just as irrelevant. Also: so bring more protection. You know, they call it the GÇ¥moving the goalpostsGÇ¥-fallacy for a reasonGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. Tippia wrote:Oh and: are there any 0.7 ice mining systems? If so, then yes, it will indeed survive three of them. They bring more fire power.
Bring more friends.
May I suggest Ospreys, Scimitars or Basilisks?
EDIT: Damn it, Tippia got to it before me, and she pointed out your logical fallacy too!
Curse ye! |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
430
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers.
A logi would have to be the worst shitfit logi in the world to be lost to a suicide gank - assuming anyone would even try, since the loot drop would be completely worthless and you'd be having to pray for salvage to make it anything other than a total loss.
And that's assuming you use a dedicated logi ship instead of say, an Osprey. |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. So don't. Also: irrelevant. Quote:They bring more fire power. Just as irrelevant. Also: so bring more protection. You know, they call it the Gǥmoving the goalpostsGǥ-fallacy for a reasonGǪ
Do you know what happens when you rep someone who is attacked by someone in this game? They can shoot that Logi pilot legally. Concord doesn't care.
Btw, do you own Basi or Scimi BPO? |
Widow Cain
25
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:01:00 -
[42] - Quote
Join a corp.
At max skill for almost every profession in EVE, whether it is mining, PvP or even PI, solo becomes difficult, expensive or pointless.
OMG You are sooo pixel macho... |
Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. So don't. Also: irrelevant. Quote:They bring more fire power. Just as irrelevant. Also: so bring more protection. You know, they call it the Gǥmoving the goalpostsGǥ-fallacy for a reasonGǪ Do you know what happens when you rep someone who is attacked by someone in this game? They can shoot that Logi pilot legally. Concord doesn't care. Btw, do you own Basi or Scimi BPO?
Last time I checked a Osprey costed what? 15m with fittings? Small price to pay, and that's even assuming aggression mechanics works as you say it does, which I doubt. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1228
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:03:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. So don't. Also: irrelevant. Quote:They bring more fire power. Just as irrelevant. Also: so bring more protection. You know, they call it the Gǥmoving the goalpostsGǥ-fallacy for a reasonGǪ Do you know what happens when you rep someone who is attacked by someone in this game? They can shoot that Logi pilot legally. Concord doesn't care. Btw, do you own Basi or Scimi BPO? What are they going to do, burn ~70km in their thrashers and suicide gank your logi in the 7 seconds they have until concord appear and neut/jam/pop them?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7924
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:04:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Do you know what happens when you rep someone who is attacked by someone in this game? Yes: the person being attacked gets repped. This increases his chances of surviving.
Quote:They can shoot that Logi pilot legally. Concord doesn't care. This is entirely incorrect. It also indicative of why miners are struggling so hard: because they have no clue about basic game mechanics. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
132
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Klandi wrote:If profit is the key to maximizing income (admit it, grinding is a boring necessity) then you need to spend as little time doing it as possible. That means an ice miner needs to keep the basics which are: 2 x ice harvester II in high slots 2 x ice harvesters (II as the meta 4 are 360mil ea) in the low slots First step: ditch the idea of maintaining maximum yield while at the same time maintaining a good tank. Everything comes at a costGǪ
It was a loaded question though.
They weren't actually asking how to maximize yeilds for more profit, but how do you maximize yeilds for more profit to do it less because it's borig to do.
I would think that the only correct answer would be to go do something that doesn't bore the **** out of you?
The OP knows that it's not possible to maximize yeild and tank the ship at the same time. In otherwords, they set a trap and a bunch of people fell for it.
It's another buff miners so they don't have to tank the ships thread. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:10:00 -
[47] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:What are they going to do, burn ~70km in their thrashers and suicide gank your logi in the 7 seconds they have until concord appear and neut/jam/pop them?
Yes. Or use Oracle/Tornado. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7924
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Yes. Or use Oracle/Tornado. GǪwhich they can also survive.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Possum's Awesome
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
28
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. So don't. Also: irrelevant. Quote:They bring more fire power. Just as irrelevant. Also: so bring more protection. You know, they call it the Gǥmoving the goalpostsGǥ-fallacy for a reasonGǪ Do you know what happens when you rep someone who is attacked by someone in this game? They can shoot that Logi pilot legally. Concord doesn't care. Btw, do you own Basi or Scimi BPO?
gosh, i love kids that don't know jack about aggression mechanics.
No sir, no they can't, not at all. I want to Willy Wonka you, you're so wrong. Actually, I will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6YfJZ9hxLQ Possum's Awesome : Awesome Possum
Unjustly accused and condemned for his crimes. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1290
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quite expensive ship to lose to cheap destroyers. So don't. Also: irrelevant. Quote:They bring more fire power. Just as irrelevant. Also: so bring more protection. You know, they call it the Gǥmoving the goalpostsGǥ-fallacy for a reasonGǪ
It's not a moving the goalposts. Gankers with up to 3 gank alts are the majority and oddly enough, the "group up" does not apply to them as it's a soloable thing.
If there were needed 4-5 destroyers then it'd become exponentially harder to find "soloers" with that many accounts.
Therefore any setup unable to stop the "dime a dozen ganker" thresold of 3 accounts is pointless.
This is why I suggest an hulk instead, as they can be made to survive the average 3 account ganker. Macks are only good for trash and for generous giving away of killmails. An Hulk gets within 7% or so of them anyway. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Yes. Or use Oracle/Tornado. GǪwhich they can also survive.
Scimi has 10k EHP usually. Tach Oracle and Arty Tornado can both hit for over 10k damage per volley.
Of course, for Tornado they need a carefully planned warp in point. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7924
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:30:00 -
[52] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:It's not a moving the goalposts. Of course it is.
The OP mentions a single destroyer; I point out that it's easy to survive one. Jorma moves the goalposts by saying it can't survive three; I point out that with logi and/or by being in a higher-sec system they can. Jorma moves the goalposts by saying they will bring more peopleGǪ
It's the very definition of moving the goalposts: when a solution is presented to the stated problem, the problem is restated to ensure that the present solution is wrong (and even then, he fails because the same solution still works GÇö he's just too clueless about game mechanics to know this).
As further ignorance of mechanics, we haveGǪJorma Morkkis wrote:Scimi has 10k EHP usually. Tach Oracle and Arty Tornado can both hit for over 10k damage per volley. No, and no, in that order. A conservatively fitted Scimi will have 30k+ EHP. One fitted purely for defence will have 60k. In addition, one fitted properly and engaged by large weapons will trivially survive paper damage that is 3GÇô4 times that muchGǪ Unfitted, a scimi has over 10k EHP GÇö that's how spectacularly clueless you are about the ships in question.
GǪand a Tachy Oracle does not do 10k damage per volley. GǪand both ships already cost more than 70M, so even by just suggesting them, you've moved the goalposts even further.
Quote:Of course, for Tornado they need a carefully planned warp in point. GǪon a ship that costs less than the gank ship they're employing; that can trivially outmanoeuvre the guns the ship is carrying; which is screaming along at 700m/s in a 50km-radius orbit. Yeah, no. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Miss Yanumano
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Not to mention, hitting an AB perma scimi orbiting those precious hulks or macks is a ******* ***** to hit with a 'nado or Oracle. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:40:00 -
[54] - Quote
Mine in a Rokh? I don't know, I've never had the pleasure or the urge to mine with any actual mining craft larger than a Retriever. I guess if you really just gotta mine, you're going to have to make sacrifices right now. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The OP mentions a single destroyer; I point out that it's easy to survive one. Jorma moves the goalposts by saying it can't survive three; I point out that with logi and/or by being in a higher-sec system they can. Jorma moves the goalposts by saying they will bring more peopleGǪ
It's the very definition of moving the goalposts: when a solution is presented to the stated problem, the problem is restated to ensure that the present solution is wrong (and even then, he fails because the same solution still works GÇö he's just too clueless about game mechanics to know this).
So, why this logi thing doesn't help freighter pilots survive in Jita?
Tippia wrote:GǪon a ship that costs less than the gank ship they're employing; that can trivially outmanoeuvre the guns the ship is carrying; which is screaming along at 700m/s in a 50km-radius orbit. Yeah, no.
Last time I checked Scimitar costs ~170 mil + fitting. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1290
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:43:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:It's not a moving the goalposts. Of course it is. The OP mentions a single destroyer; I point out that it's easy to survive one. Jorma moves the goalposts by saying it can't survive three; I point out that with logi and/or by being in a higher-sec system they can. Jorma moves the goalposts by saying they will bring more peopleGǪ It's the very definition of moving the goalposts: when a solution is presented to the stated problem, the problem is restated to ensure that the present solution is wrong (and even then, he fails because the same solution still works GÇö he's just too clueless about game mechanics to know this).
I don't agree. The goalpost would move if it was presented with a viable question to begin with and then a statistically functional solution and then it would indeed move the goal. As it's posed now it's just a wrong "question" and goal and it's not exactly moved but corrected into the right one.
The right one is to ask for a 3 destroyer survival solution as that's what most of the gankers will show up with, not just 1. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7925
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 00:49:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:So, why this logi thing doesn't help freighter pilots survive in Jita? Because they don't use them, and because those gankers don't use destroyers.
Tippia wrote:Last time I checked Scimitar costs ~170 mil + fitting. GǪand you need 300M+ worth of Tornadoes to kill it in the time allotted.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I don't agree. That's your problem. The fact remains that it's his only debate tactic: when you prove him wrong, he comes back with GÇ£they'll bring moreGÇ¥, conveniently forgetting that, no, they won't, because their numbers and their wallets are limited, and that the quickest way to overrun the profit margins is to bring more people. Instead, they will pick a different target.
Quote:The right one is to ask for a 3 destroyer survival solution GǪwhich wasn't the question. Escalating it to one is to move the goal posts. Oh, and the solution to that was presented, so he had to move the goalposts even further. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
189
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
use a retriever? you sacrifice yield, but also limit costs when it gets popped. mine cheaper and longer, not better is really the only defense.
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
430
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Posted - 2012.06.14 00:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
The only thing to be learned from any of these repeat threads is that any time Jorma Morkkis says anything at all about how things work in Eve Online, he's talking so far out of his ass it's almost remarkable. |
Apoc Baltar
The 22nd Jenquai Deep Space Corp High Rollers
0
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Posted - 2012.06.14 01:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
1) roll an alt 2) fly that noobship out to your hauling orca in belt 3) fire a few rounds 4) wait for concordedonkken 5) mine while Concorde guards your boats 6) rinse and repeat |
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