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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:08:00 -
[61]
I fly in relatively large blobs. Looking at our killboard the latest significant groups of enemies that produced killmails one way or the other flew:
23 man shield fleet 8 drakes 3 scimis 2 hictors 8 t2 cruisers mostly rapier/arazu
40 man shield fleet 4 scimitars 1 basilisk 21 drakes 1 dictor 2 cs 1 tengu and 10 t2 cruisers again rapier/arazu
random cva pet fleet
Smaller enemy encounters include but are not limited to:
4bs 7 hacs in lowsec
7 t1 cruisers
8 t1 cruiser fleet
7 bc fleet
Most of the other stuff looks like us getting ganked or ganking. I didnt bother looking very hard or including groups of less than 5.
For this week the kb looks like
Ship class K L
Assault frigate 2 2
Battlecruiser 16 9
Battleship 6 5
Black Ops 0 0
Cap. Industrial 0 0
Capsule 47 9
Carrier 0 0
Command ship 0 1
Covert ops 4 4
Cruiser 20 0
Destroyer 1 0
Dreadnought 0 0
Electronic Attack Ship 1 0
Exhumer 1 0
Freighter 0 0
Frigate 12 3
Heavy assault 4 0
Heavy Interdictor 0 0
Industrial 2 0
Industrial Command Ship 1 0
Interceptor 14 5
Interdictor 2 1
Jump Freighter 0 0
Logistics 0 1
Marauder 0 0
Mining barge 0 0
Mothership 0 0
POS Large 2 0
POS Medium 0 0
POS Modules 10 0
POS Small 0 0
Recon ship 4 3
Shuttle 1 2
Strategic Cruiser 0 0
Titan 0 0
Transport 0 0
I submit that battlecruisers are a popular choice atm. Not claiming that they are overpowered but they are being used alot.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:09:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Grut
As the post above you've posted a load of rubbish there. A nanocane does ~ +50% Dps more then 50% ehp, is faster and more agile then a 1600mm rupture.
And has twice the signature radius. Meaning it will take a lot more damage from battleships.
Quote:
The only reason to fly t1 combat cruisers is if you don't have the skills for a BC or if you fly t1 mods unrigged for cheapness.
Depends against what you are going.
Quote:
As far as BS go they might hit BCs abit easier but then the BC has alot more hp to makeup for it. I've never had a problem hitting cruisers in a close range BS. The only situation that really applies is 1 BS vs 1+ cruisers anyway.
Agree with everything else you said though 
Depends. A Torp Raven for example will hit a nanocane for twice as much damage than a rupture, for a example. if you have 2 nanocanes against a proper pvp raven, chances are you will die or at best run. Two ruptures can kill a pvp raven, on the other hand.
A stabber can disengage from most engagements much easier than a nanocane too if you anticipate trouble.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:14:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
I submit that battlecruisers are a popular choice atm. Not claiming that they are overpowered but they are being used alot.
About as much as interceptors and less than cruisers, by your own data.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:19:00 -
[64]
Buff Battleships.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Pax Empyrean
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:42:00 -
[65]
I'm just gonna throw this out there as an idle suggestion, but what if BCs could fit large sized weapons? They'd still be good at killing each other (better, actually), they'd lose to Battleships after putting up a somewhat better fight, and they'd be a lot more vulnerable to cruisers. Or maybe just the Tier 2 BCs for each race?
That sort of change would result in a bigger gap between the bigger ships (BC and BS) and ships cruiser sized or smaller. It's harder than it should be to find situations where Cruisers shine that a Hurricane couldn't do better. If BCs had large weapons they'd basically just be cheaper, faster, weaker Battleships instead of tougher, slower (except the Cane), slightly more expensive Cruisers. That's a less dominant niche than the one they currently occupy, with a smaller range of decent targets and a few more ships they'd have to be wary of.
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Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Grut
Most cruisers can't really shield tank due to 3 mids and can't nano without reducing dps due to lack of slots.
Yes, most T1 cruisers are crap and don't do anything well.
Thats what I said, bcs make even the rupture which is probably the best t1 combat cruiser is pointless compared to bcs - they do exactly the same role, better, for hardly any extra isk. - You agree so I win 
Kinsy > deadman you
there?
Kinsy > are either of us in
pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless
[ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:47:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
I'm just gonna throw this out there as an idle suggestion, but what if BCs could fit large sized weapons? They'd still be good at killing each other (better, actually), they'd lose to Battleships after putting up a somewhat better fight, and they'd be a lot more vulnerable to cruisers. Or maybe just the Tier 2 BCs for each race?
That sort of change would result in a bigger gap between the bigger ships (BC and BS) and ships cruiser sized or smaller. It's harder than it should be to find situations where Cruisers shine that a Hurricane couldn't do better. If BCs had large weapons they'd basically just be cheaper, faster, weaker Battleships instead of tougher, slower (except the Cane), slightly more expensive Cruisers. That's a less dominant niche than the one they currently occupy, with a smaller range of decent targets and a few more ships they'd have to be wary of.
^^ this would work if it was implemented when bcs came in however ccp borked it.
Kinsy > deadman you
there?
Kinsy > are either of us in
pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless
[ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.11.10 23:35:00 -
[68]
Yeah there are 9+16 BC showing on this data and 20 t1 cruisers. All that proves though is WE prefer bc over cruisers.
I submit though that the 2 large enemy bc gangs dont show on the killboard as kills or losses because they wooped our asses. And 10 of the 20 t1 cruisers on the other hand all got wiped out in a single engagement because their fc and pilots were completely clueless.
Anyway you look at it this random sampleing of the killboard implies more use of bc than t2 cruisers. Interceptors are also important but they generally serve as tacklers for something else rather than the main body of the fleet.
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.11 00:35:00 -
[69]
The basic problem of T1 cruisers is the fact hulls cost nothing to lose. Therefore they're almost as expensive as BCs, and just about as expensive as a T1 ****fit Dominix with only T2 drones and no rigs which will still do ungodly things to cruisers, BCs, anything which needs any sort of capacitor for anything, and so on.
Regarding actual ship capabilities as such, the current lineup makes perfect sense. Regarding price/performance, well, free T1 hulls make T1 ship price useless as a balancing factor.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Removal Tool
Space Jerks
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Posted - 2009.11.11 02:13:00 -
[70]
Tracking Disrupters are too OP to be flying an expensive turret ship with an active tank.
A Neut Myrm with 2 TDs is just too powerful and just about anyone can fly one.
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Darthewok
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.11 03:34:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Darthewok on 11/11/2009 03:36:53
for sov wars, BS>>>>BC as RR BS can walk right over equivalent numbers of BCs.
and BCs are not much use for POS(soon to be STOP/FLAG) bashing.
so BS does have a role BCs do not cover.
if BCs are more commonly used than BS in your corp/alliance, one reason may be if your corp/alliance engages more in roaming PVP as opposed to sov wars, and in roams BS are too usually slow.
usually fastish roam->bring BC (or T2 ship). sov war->bring RR BS
What IMO is currently imbalanced is HACs are far far more expensive than BCs (they are 3-5x BC prices plus not being able to be insured). But this will probably improve once Dominion reduces moon goo requirements/costs. These super-high T2 cruiser costs are probably the major reason for the over-predominance of cheap, insurable BCs in PVP currently.
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Dabljuh
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Posted - 2009.11.11 03:56:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
I'm just gonna throw this out there as an idle suggestion, but what if BCs could fit large sized weapons? They'd still be good at killing each other (better, actually), they'd lose to Battleships after putting up a somewhat better fight, and they'd be a lot more vulnerable to cruisers. Or maybe just the Tier 2 BCs for each race?
That sort of change would result in a bigger gap between the bigger ships (BC and BS) and ships cruiser sized or smaller. It's harder than it should be to find situations where Cruisers shine that a Hurricane couldn't do better. If BCs had large weapons they'd basically just be cheaper, faster, weaker Battleships instead of tougher, slower (except the Cane), slightly more expensive Cruisers. That's a less dominant niche than the one they currently occupy, with a smaller range of decent targets and a few more ships they'd have to be wary of.
Historically speaking, Battlecruisers are a WW1/WW2 thing, and haven't really been seen before or after. The basic design behind battlecruisers was that they were a mix between cruiser and battleship. (DUH) There is however differences in how you mix the two.
A cruiser isn't so much a ship type as it is a designation. A cruiser is a ship that can single-handedly patrol a piece ocean for months at a time, as opposed to the 'frigate' (british for 'destroyer') which was always part of a task force, i.e. a bigger group. But to stay afloat for many months at a time, a ship necessarily needs to be bigger than one that'll never be on its own and always have access to supply ships.
Anyhow. Cruisers and Battleships, and how you turn Battlecruisers from them.
The germans essentially took a cruiser, and gave it the armor to withstand everything but the highest-caliber battleship guns. That was their battlecruiser. The brits on the other hand went the opposite route and gave them the typical, lightweight cruiser armor but the guns of a battleship and a high speed.
Now in Eve, it's pretty obvious that CCP holds it with the germans. EVEs BC is a cruiser with the armor of a battleship, or a battleship with the armament of a cruiser.
What you are suggesting however isn't switching to the british Battlecruiser design compromise of - essentially - a cruiser with battleship-level guns. Which I think would be an interesting new ship in EVE, say, a stabber with 5 battleship artillery turrets? With the ability to defeat battleships through firepower and speed tanking, while remaining utterly vulnerable to anything cruiser-sized because it has only the EHP of a cruiser? That's interesting! A bit like the stealth bomber maybe. But that's not what you are suggesting.
No; What you are suggesting is removing the BC class as a whole and instead reintroduce them as Tier 0 battleships.
That's ******ed. Go away.
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Pearre Dash
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Posted - 2009.11.11 07:14:00 -
[73]
WW1 and interbellum battlecruisers were also the largest ships in the world until the advent of fast battleships, which needed to be large as well, but could be better armored while having similar size to battlecruisers thanks to advancements in boiler and hull shaping technology.
EVE BCs are more analogous to German BCs or pocket battleships; very heavy cruiser weaponry, small size (for pocket battleships), but making real life analogies is bad (even if it's fun).
As for the "sudden" popularity of BCs, what? Battlecruisers have been super popular since they were introduced, especially since the tier 2 variants were introduced. Drakes, Hurricanes, Harbingers and Myrmidons have been absolutely everywhere since Revelations, especially Myrmidons during the five heavy drone era of 2007-2008.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2009.11.11 07:41:00 -
[74]
Forst off with norma llvl 5 the drake gets 660ish dps and 80k ehp tank impressive...very except when you put it in a fleet then its insta primaried and useless.
Also man if your BS`s are 90k ehp 700 dps boats you are doifg something way wrong,
They get 100-150k EHP tanks with 780-1400 DPS that is amazingly higher.
Also Rifters kill lone BS`s all the time and they have 8k ehp and 120 dps, hell HAcs, AF`s, T3`s etcetcetc while kill almost any bs solo, SHoud we nerf them all?
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
fogbird
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.11 09:24:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr
Battlecruisers.
Battlecruisers.
BATTLE-cruisers.
id rather see t1-bcs get buffed and support the speed/agility proposal.
to op: if your bs died to a bc, youve done it wrong. its simple as that.
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Taradis
Amarr
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.11 10:11:00 -
[76]
 keep smokin that crack OP. Tier 2 BC r fine, Tier 1's could use sum love tho.
So whats the big deal if battle cruisers r popular? hoopty damn doo. Just because a certain ship type is popular don't mean they need to be nerfed.
OP you must epically suck at fitting ships, werk on your skills first, then you have the right to *****.
Guess you've never met a triple 1600 RT plated, triple tri-marked rigged Abaddon then. O wait bad idea considering you would lose to one then start another nerf battleship's whine thread.
Tier 2 BC's r the most well balanced ship's in the game imo, they do what they are intended to do.
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SPECKILLER
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Posted - 2009.11.11 10:30:00 -
[77]
To everyone who is picking on OP's Battleship statement: Life must be hard when you're a spastic. Read between the lines at what he's saying, FFS. Tier 2 BCs are overpowered and need a nerf - it's as simple as that. Semantics are for those that need to L2NBAFW...
And to those who are using fleet battles as points of contention in re the OP's post - I, and most other people, yes most other people, don't give two ****s about fleet battles. Use practical examples if you're going to act like you are somehow knowledgeable, not fantastic pipe dream scenarios.
I swear ever since the number of simultaneous players in EVE doubled the average IQ has fallen to near-WoW levels.
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fogbird
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.11 12:58:00 -
[78]
Originally by: SPECKILLER
...random s***
i don't suffer from sudden muscle contraction. yet i find evaluating the ops statement to be a valid forum post technique.
and whats this wow you speak of? you have extensive experience with this one, no?
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Noisrevbus
Caldari
Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2009.11.11 13:53:00 -
[79]
I think people should have paid more attention to the statement Endless made.
BC are not overpowered in the ship size scaling. They compare pretty well over Cruisers and under BS.
Claiming a BC doing 50% the damage of a BS and tanking (at best, with tanking bonuses) 50-75% of a BS, is "near" a BS is not very accurate.
You can easily make some of the better Cruisers come closer than 50% damage and tank of a BC - does that make Cruisers overpowered?
The rest is just trends, BC are trendy now after all the nerfs to HACs and Recons (speed nerf, agility nerf, EW nerfs etc.) Not only because they are cheap, adaptable and easy to train for (along with utilizing the same skills as your Cruisers and tech II Cruisers); but also because they are a good middle ground to fight the other trends in the game: Sniper-HACs and RRBS.
A heavy shield-BC gang can adapt to Sniper-HACs (and Roaming HACs) by adopting typical 'RR tactics', while it can also deal with RRBS gangs by adopting typical 'Roaming HAC tactics'.
The Drake is the king of BC, not because it's overpowered by any larger stretch (while being a good ship), but because it is the king of the BC-gangs where it can utilize it's advantages and disregard it's disadvantages. If you pick the entire BC line apart, the Drake is not necessarily a better ship overall. In the trend of adapting to fight both HAC and BS gangs however, it is the king.
In terms of adapting into a HAC gang or a BS gang, it is not the king. In those situations a heavily plated BC or more easily nano'ed BC with less damage but more utility tend to be favourable. The Hurricane, for example, shine quite nicely in both of those environments, since it can plate up and still carry a link or nano up and carry a link or augment it's damage with neuts.
Roaming BC gangs are trendy now though, with good reason.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.11.11 14:20:00 -
[80]
with BC basically being battleships-with-medium-guns, i say bump them back up to large rigs 
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putting the gist back into logistics |
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2009.11.11 14:33:00 -
[81]
If i remember good it was admiral John Fisher who was big advocate of using bcs instead of bses.
He was saying something like : it will be able to destroy any enemy cruiser with its supreme firepower and able to keep distance from enemy battleship with its speed... /SONDHAUS : Naval Warfare 1815-1914.../.
Realisation of idea of bc was ofc different for GB and Germany /GB - empire wth colonies all over the world = need for high mobility, Germany - only a few colonies, need to secure North Sea = lower speed but better armor/.
I think it works like that in eve atm - you can kill any cruiser with bc, and if you know what are you doing you can gtfo from any bs.
And battlecruisers have awesome price/performance ratio, thats why they are used so much atm. And tier 2 bcs are just better than tier 1...
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.11 14:34:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/11/2009 14:35:40
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
with BC basically being battleships-with-medium-guns, i say bump them back up to large rigs
Something makes me think you've never flown a BS. A plated typhoon easily outdoes BC EHP by a hefty margin, even compared to the Drake, while doing a lot more DPS, and that's a Tier 1 BS.
They're most certainly not BS with medium guns. They're somewhere halfway between cruisers and battleships really.
They do kill cruisers if they catch them and get away from battleships, which is basically their design idea.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Sun Ra
The Water Margin Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.11 15:34:00 -
[83]
Buff Tier 1 bc's instead?
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:27:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Solid Star on 11/11/2009 17:35:07
Originally by: Tista
I finally finish training for 1 year to get in a sleipnir and find that the sleipnir is a slight improvment in a few areas to the hurricane
If you only noticed a slight improvement with the Sleipnir then you are not fitting correctly or have poor skills. And my phoon or tempest will slaughter a Hurricane.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:33:00 -
[85]
If this is really a "Nerf the Drake" whine then just say it, the tire 2 BC's are very closely balanced. only if more ship classes had such a relationship.
And i must agree with what a lot of people are saying in this thread regarding Command Ships....
If you do not see that CS's are better than BC's than you do not know how to fit / have skills to fly one, or you are doing it wrong.
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Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.12 02:58:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Rastigan on 12/11/2009 02:59:49
Edited by: Rastigan on 12/11/2009 02:58:50
Originally by: xxxak
You are tarded. Jav missiles for 30km thx bai. And it would **** an omen or any AF.
EFT missile ranges are not Eve ranges, you need to chop around 10% off.
Javelin Drakes go as slow as Battleships (it has a speed penalty) and does less damage than HML's using fury.
And you can fit most tier 1 Battleships with MUCH better EFT numbers any day.
example:
T2 Mega Pulse II Geddon, 92k EHP, web,scram,mwd, 1184 DPS with efthero conflag ammo.. 1000 dps at 45km optimal with scorch. Drone dps is included of course.
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Pax Empyrean
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Posted - 2009.11.12 05:32:00 -
[87]
Quote:
That's ******ed. Go away.
I was going to include a bit about the history behind the term "battlecruiser", but decided against it on account of it being pretentious, stupid and completely irrelevant. Fortunately you're quick to fill in for that when you see it's lacking.
Anyway, it might be nice to see a buff for some of the Tier 1 BCs. They kind of suck, although not as badly as some of the other lower tier ships of the smaller classes.
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