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xestria
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Posted - 2009.11.17 23:06:00 -
[1]
Edited by: xestria on 17/11/2009 23:08:25 Edited by: xestria on 17/11/2009 23:08:00 Edited by: xestria on 17/11/2009 23:06:59 Training time for a typical skill might go like this:
Level 1: 35 minutes Level 2: 3 hours Level 3: 12 hours Level 4: 1 day 10 hours Level 5: 7 days
Yet for each of those increasing times spent, you get the same thing i.e. something like 5% increase in something for each level.
So L5 costs you 7 days, but you get the same in return as the 35 mins you spent training it to level 1. Surely then, level 5 skills are a practical joke by CCP on players?
Some people will claim that extra 5% gives them advantage. But this is a complete wrongism: while you spend 7 days to get that extra 5%, your opponents/rivals/enemies have trained five other skills to L4. They've received 5% * 4 improvements, five times!
It seems a similar concept to researching the ME on a blueprint to 1,000,000. The first 10 levels of ME gives you 10% improvement, but the next 999,990 gives you 0.1% improvement.
--edit: Yes I know some skills at L5 are enablers for new skills.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.11.17 23:18:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 17/11/2009 23:19:01
Originally by: xestria Some people will claim that extra 5% gives them advantage. But this is a complete wrongism: while you spend 7 days to get that extra 5%, your opponents/rivals/enemies have trained five other skills to L4. They've received 5% * 4 improvements, five times!
OMG, CCP forces us to make choices! Note that that one level V skill might be your only option to increase that particular stat. Or you may already have all other skills at IV. Or you just like skills at V.
Also your math is wrong. In your example, only the first level would actually give a 5% increase. Each subsequent level would give a smaller percentage increase compared to the previous level. First level: 5,00% Second level: 4,76% Third level: 4,55% Fourth level: 4,35% Fifth level: 4,17%
Proof: 100 * 1,05 * 1,0476 * 1,0455 * 1,0435 * 1,0417 = 125
In sum: The situation is worse than you claimed.
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Valrandir
Elemental Mercury Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.17 23:19:00 -
[3]
- Once all relevant skills for a given task are trained to level IV, the next step it to train them to level V.
- Once you train a skill, you have it trained forever assuming you keep your clone updated.
I have over 100mil sp and over 100 skills at level V. Level V is not a joke.
I trained some rank 8 specialization skills to level V, for 2% increase. But since then I have that small advantage, forever.
This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.11.18 02:11:00 -
[4]
Skills are multiplicative. There is almost no point in EVE where you can say "you get the same return". Some skills (the "+x% per level" ones) give worse and worse relative benefits compared to the previous level, but there are other skills (the "-x% per level" ones) that actually give better and better results for each additional level.
There's only a limited number of skills that apply to each individual situation. For any particular situation, somebody who has all those skills trained to L4 is indeed going to fare noticeably worse than somebody who has them all trained to L5, and that's no question.
True, you might dispute the worth compared to time spent, but we are talking about one particular situation (no matter what the situation). Once ALL THOSE relevant-to-the-situation skills are brought to L4 (and some needed prerequisites to L5), there's nothing else left to do... except start training some of them to L5 -or- branching out and training for an entirely different situation altogether.
So... yeah... it's stupid to start training L5 skills unless they're prerequisites for something you just must have, unless you already have all the other relevant skills to L4 (well, most of them, adjusted for skill rank, or better said, training time). But then again the same logic applies to L4 vs L3 skills. And then for L3 vs L2s. And even for L2s vs L1s, even if the relevance of this last one is lost for everybody except the freshest of ADD-riddled newbie that just wants the best performance out of his character in hours, not days or weeks.
Dear OP, I hope you can start getting a hint as to what's shaky about with your initial approach/complaint. If not, well, enjoy your countless low-level skills and your minor-jack-of-all-trades master-of-absolutely-none character... there's nothing wrong with that, except, you know, having people who just started only a short while ago and focused on what they wanted being better than you in their chosen field, no matter what the field is, even if you're 5-to-10 times their (in-game) age.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.11.18 02:34:00 -
[5]
and I've received 5% * 5 improvements, five times!
or something
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Aiko Intaki
Lodizal Shield Tek Lodizal Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.11.18 05:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: xestria So L5 costs you 7 days, but you get the same in return as the 35 mins you spent training it to level 1. Surely then, level 5 skills are a practical joke by CCP on players?
Some people will claim that extra 5% gives them advantage. But this is a complete wrongism: while you spend 7 days to get that extra 5%, your opponents/rivals/enemies have trained five other skills to L4. They've received 5% * 4 improvements, five times!
It seems a similar concept to researching the ME on a blueprint to 1,000,000. The first 10 levels of ME gives you 10% improvement, but the next 999,990 gives you 0.1% improvement.
Congratulations!
You've discovered one of the fundamental points of genius behind EvE's design that will help keep it from withering and dying in two years time due to a dearth of new players. Check 'No new players due to perceived insurmountable veteran advantage' off your list and see if you can find the others!
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.11.18 05:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: xestria Some people will claim that extra 5% gives them advantage
Also your math is wrong. In your example, only the first level would actually give a 5% increase.-
your verbal math fails you... he said extra 5% not a 5% increase like you understood it as.
going from 5% to 10% is 5 extra % points, a 100% increase in % points and as you rightly said a 4,76% increase over a 5% increase.
The point of lvl5s is specialization. It doesn't take that much time to train all relevant skills to fly a frigate for example. Once that is done you want to add something more ... and there come level 5s.
hell, those don't last all that long either if you only think frigates. Here is o/ for level 6 please :D . |
Nonnosa
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.18 07:34:00 -
[8]
But all MMORPG's have this diminishing return for skill/level advancement. It's to slow character advancement down so new players aren't disadvantaged and to make people play (and pay for ) longer to experience everything.
If you could finish and MMO in the same time as a single player RPG most people would only play for a few months before quitting. An MMO game needs a large player base with a mix of new and older people to keep things interesting. Especially EVE with its PVP slant.
In a lot of cases level 4 is 'good enough' but yes, level 5 is the enabler for new skills, items and ships. Make a choice.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.11.18 07:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ravenal your verbal math fails you... he said extra 5% not a 5% increase like you understood it as.
Actually he did say [5% increase], and he said it before [5% extra].
Furthermore, what you claim is him saying [5% extra] is actually him saying [that 5% extra] (emphasis mine); "that" indicating that the following information ("5% extra") is 'given' information. ('Given' information being information which has been given in the text before.) In other words, [that 5% extra] is a reference to something which was said earlier. The 'ground' of the reference is [5% increase]. Thus [that 5% extra] and [5% increase] are the same concept in this text.
Questions?
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Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:52:00 -
[10]
If you didn't have anything else better to train in the meantime, then why should it matter?
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Joe Skellington
Minmatar JOKAS Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.18 20:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 18/11/2009 18:56:52 So that 50 million sp character is still going to always be better than your 10 million sp.
More versatile, but not necessarily better. I've seen people with max skills fail at things because they couldn't grasp a concept, when someone with less skills did it just fine.
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Vain Eldritch
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.11.19 09:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Joe Skellington
Originally by: Captain Tardbar Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 18/11/2009 18:56:52 So that 50 million sp character is still going to always be better than your 10 million sp.
More versatile, but not necessarily better. I've seen people with max skills fail at things because they couldn't grasp a concept, when someone with less skills did it just fine.
Surely Joe is correct - while a new character will never have as diverse a range of skills as a played-from-release character, specialization allows new players to compete on an equal level in any given task. There are only so may skills that can be brought to bare in a given situation and thus a finite amount of learning time to skill a character for that contingency.
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Nano Pope
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:02:00 -
[13]
I'd put the break even point at around 10 million SP, by then you can specialise in any T1 and some T2 ships. But really the break even point is 2 million sp, ie. a 1 week old character who can theoretically kill a character of any age if they use their wits.
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clixor
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:52:00 -
[14]
ofcourse everybody will agree that L5's can be a pain in the behind. But if you think about it, this enables new players to come on par with old player relatively quickly. If new players decide to specialize from the start they can even match old players in terms of SP in a certain area within a certain time frame.
OR you can decide not to specialize and do several things, (hard) choices is what makes it interesting imo.
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Cuzmat
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:12:00 -
[15]
Some of the differences between IV and V can make or break a ship. Mostly it is the fitting skills, because there are some nice cookie cutter fits that can be very tight. Having to downgrade or drop modules due to lack of fitting skills can easily decrease performance or stats way more than 5%. |
Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:22:00 -
[16]
I really enjoy training skills to 5 solely based on the fact that I can ignore my skill training for months at a time and still feel that I am advancing in game. Well that and when you have trained the skills pertaining to what you do to 4 already, what is left? <-------------------------------------------------> "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein |
Alice Teal
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Posted - 2009.11.19 18:54:00 -
[17]
Oddly enough this is how things work in RL too. For the last 5% of awesome, you end up paying more than for the first 20%.
For instance:
Sports cars that go 230 vs sports cars that go 250.
Financial analysts/engineers/scientists who are top 5% vs. top 10% in their fields(here the payscale goes up by a factor of 10 or so).
Lasers with frequency coherence of +/- 1% vs +/- 5%.
And so on...
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.11.19 19:06:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Psiri on 19/11/2009 19:07:23 Unfortunately lvl 5 skills do not only allow the use of new skills and modules (Thermodynamics, T2 armor hardeners etc) but do give players a huge advantage over those without them.
The extra stats from one lvl 5 skill generally won't make a whole lot of difference, however once you have 40+ lvl 5 skills that ammounts to a pretty massive advantage.
With a Hurricane for instance you would recieve somewhere around a +40-50% boost to DPS (overheating aside), not to mention the added speed, agility, EHP, locking times and whatnot.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cuzmat Some of the differences between IV and V can make or break a ship. Mostly it is the fitting skills, because there are some nice cookie cutter fits that can be very tight. Having to downgrade or drop modules due to lack of fitting skills can easily decrease performance or stats way more than 5%.
Likewise, just 5% more DPS (sorry - I mean 4% or 4.5% or so) can sometimes be just what is required to break a particular tank, e.g. a passive or active shield tank.
-- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude |
Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Actually he did say [5% increase], and he said it before [5% extra].
Questions?
No, just a comment :) ... should have included that in the quote then right?
anyway, this 5% extra vs "no its actually 4,yada% increase" is pointless. My reply was a poor attempt at sarcasm to illustrate that we all know that in the end its a 25% increase (given 5% per level). . |
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