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Forranz
Malice. Tentative Nature
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Posted - 2009.11.22 04:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Laiyna All mining ops I have bene in do the next:
- Toss it all in 1 big can - Perfect Refine - Players (not accounts) that helped the whole ops get equal share.
Players in a Hulk get less, players who just started get way more, but in the end, the Hulk player needs it less. Everybody is chatting on mumble, everybody has fun. And as a bonus for the richer players they actualy made a little isk also.
I myself would be more in favor of splitting for each account that activily helped, but I do not make these ops happen :)
Laiyna
Quoted for more mumble users.
Win.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.22 05:18:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
All depends if your corp *works together* or *works for the isk*.
Depends if your corp is mining for the CEO or mining to make personal isk. Don't try to make it sound like some noble endeavor.
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
That Osprey pilot will be a Hulk pilot someday, the current Hulk pilot was in a cruiser once.
Irrelevent, the osprey is still on the backs of the hulks and should instead be getting a share based on performance.
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
If the corp works that way, then it works very well. Just takes people who aren't bean-counters are willing to work for much less than their fair share.
fixed for you
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
When the Hulk pilot who's helped out the new guys needs a few miners to help build a new personal BS or cap ship. Do you think they'll have problems finding volunteers? Nope, everyone rushes to help.
He will need those volunteers since he lost isk from all the mining he was doing.
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Also you forget that Hulk pilot is benefitting from gang bonuses, Orca or Rorqual boosting etc. Unless they have their own gang boosters they get just as much either way.
No i didnt forget about them. The boosts affects everyone and increases performances. That performance can then be a base for setting performance marks when allocating profits.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.11.22 11:03:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Saehta
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
All depends if your corp *works together* or *works for the isk*.
Depends if your corp is mining for the CEO or mining to make personal isk. Don't try to make it sound like some noble endeavor.
hmmmmmm.... odd.... You must have been in some shockingly bad corps.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.22 13:23:00 -
[34]
Or I don't drink the coolaid and instead think that personal effort should be rewarded. If you can get your miners to soak up the beams of sunshine you are giving out, then good for you. You got you hulk miners to work for less than their share. I prefer a realistic approach and award shares based up on expetec performance. Isk is given accordinly.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.11.22 14:46:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Saehta I prefer a realistic approach and award shares based up on expetec performance. Isk is given accordinly.
As I said, these are 2 options. Both of which work.
You prefer to be paid for every second and every skill. That's fine.
I prefer to work with people who are a little more selfless and willing to spread the gravy around.
I built Mine Manager to work with both styles, as they both work.
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Mining FriendlyBear
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Posted - 2009.11.22 21:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Saehta I prefer a realistic approach and award shares based up on expetec performance. Isk is given accordinly.
As I said, these are 2 options. Both of which work.
You prefer to be paid for every second and every skill. That's fine.
I prefer to work with people who are a little more selfless and willing to spread the gravy around.
I built Mine Manager to work with both styles, as they both work.
Wow, Dr BattleSmith sounds like the true card carrying communist! Obama would be proud good sir.
Realistically though you should boost your miners via orca/mindlinks and reward the top tier hulk miners at a greater level and reward the junior miners appropriate to their level. If I am a lower level miner it certainly gives me a great incentive to keep training and earn a bigger piece of that pie.
No one is getting shafted in this scenario but their is an appropriate reward and an even bigger incentive to train for the top tier mining skills and in the end make the entire corp stronger.
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Borun Tal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.22 23:20:00 -
[37]
OK, maybe it's the capitalist in me, but I'm having a problem understanding the "equal split" option. If you prefer the socialist approach (equal split for all), that's fine and dandy. I have no issue with that if you tell me outright when I join your corp. In fact, as a noob I'd look for EXACTLY this kind of corporation to exploit. :)
In the real world, however, profit-sharing is done based on performance in input toward the company goals (no corporation CEO salary jokes here). I have a real problem with a 2.5million SP toon in a Osprey with a pair of Mining II's getting the same pay for a mining op as a 100million SP toon with an Orca/Hulk and loads of gang bonuses. I personally would never take part in that kind of mining op if I was a Hulk or Orca driver. Let's be realistic here, folks: with the higher SP come higher costs of living. New skills, keeping that clone updated, etc. It's one hell of a lot cheaper as a noob than it is as a 150million SP toon. Let's also not forget that many corps will often give lower-level SP toons stuff like books, T1 ships, etc, further reducing the cost of living for the new toons.
What about a base salary for the operation commensurate with their skills against what they would ordinarily make for the same period on their own, plus a % of the market value of the final minerals? Corporations have costs, too, ranging from cost of giveaways (books, ships, equipment, etc), payments for war operations and fees, and (not least) Alliance fees (if any).
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.11.23 00:26:00 -
[38]
It's not so much about communism vrs capitalism.... My corp is 0% tax not 100% tax. Sure if this was work I'd wanna be paid well, but it's not, it's a group of people playing a game.
For me the equal split is about making things simple. Accounting and auditing the op becomes much easier.
I don't understand how this Orca "mine into cans in the corp hanger" setup can work efficiently... The corp hanger is 40k m3. This is around 10mins of mining for a single Hulk, while miners have to be close to utilise it. It's also a very small part of the Orca capacity.
So am I right in thinking this method creates a situation where all the miners are in a small bombable radius, same roids in range, with the Orca having to do trips (or offloading) about every minute or so?
For me a roid belt needs Hulks spread out along it so they each have enough roids to chew.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.23 14:03:00 -
[39]
Of course you wouldnt mine to individual cans and have your own corner of the corporate hanger. All the ore would be thrown together for ease of hauling and storage. The ore is refined by a perfect refiner and sold by a trader toon or to the corp. Profits are then split amongst those who attended based upon the tier of performance they ended up in. Orca/Roraq , Hulk , Barge , Cruiser. Each tier getting a different % of the profit.
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C0N MAN
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Posted - 2009.11.24 05:22:00 -
[40]
Why not just assign a % based on yields and time spent in the op?
As a simple example, anyone with a total yield of 2,000M3 per 3 minutes gets 3%, plus per one hour spent in the op they get another 3%, up to only 3 hours though, so the most one person can get with that yield, is 3% and with time spent (3 hours or more) is 9% for a total of 12% of the total isk mined.
This way, you don't have your higher yield miners left out and the guys in Cruisers and Frigs can still make some isk.
If you have someone hauling - they get a straight 5%. If you have someone hauling and mining, then they get the percentages from mining and the extra 5% for hauling to. So based on the previous example, someone with a total 3 minute cycle yield of 2,000M3 who mines for 3 hours, now gets 17% of the profits.
These are all just simple numbers for examples sake, but just an idea.
A simple breakdown might be:
1,000 - 2,000M3 per 3 min = 3% 2,001 - 4,000M3 per 3 min = 5% 4,001 - 6,000M3 per 3 min = 7%
Time spent:
1 hour = 3% 2 hour = 3% so total of 6% 3 hour = 3% so total of 9%
The yields include all mining lasers or strips. And even though the mining lasers have a 1 minute cycle, you total up what their yield is for 3 minutes, since you have to compare yields from strips anyway.
For those providing Orca, or leadership bonuses of any sort for mining purposes, provide them a certain percentage as well. An Orca pilot giving full bonuses might get 10%. This might seem high, but full Orca bonuses provide a pretty good increase in yields for the miners, upping their percentages as well.
Again, I kept the numbers simple for examples sake.
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Socinus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.24 17:50:00 -
[41]
Personally I take the view that mining for the corp is exactly that, mining for the corp. I mine independently and when I mine for the corp, it's for the corp. I know I'm not gonna see tons of money off it because it's going to the corp for the corp's use but the flip side of that is the corp has resources now that I can access as I need them. The payoff isnt instant but it's there when I NEED it |
Borun Tal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.24 19:18:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Socinus Personally I take the view that mining for the corp is exactly that, mining for the corp. I mine independently and when I mine for the corp, it's for the corp. I know I'm not gonna see tons of money off it because it's going to the corp for the corp's use but the flip side of that is the corp has resources now that I can access as I need them. The payoff isnt instant but it's there when I NEED it
I actually feel the same way, but that opinion seems to be in the minority. Rather than mining as a "corporate operation", it's more widely viewed as a bunch of folks mining together (rather than a corp operation). I mined it, where's my isk? :)
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.24 23:55:00 -
[43]
If your corp offers 50% off battleship prices but requires weekly mining ops, that's fine. I'm talking about running a mining op for cash and distributing that to the participants. Distribution should be on performance and the example a few posts up is a good vision of that.
BTW, you will find logistics of offering discounted ships in return for participation in mining ops to be a larger pain to deal with than just paying for the ore upfront and proving ships at cost. The latter removes a need to track who helps mine.
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Maven Deltor
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:57:00 -
[44]
Sorry if I'm just a noob, and don't understand how a mining op works (I'm not a miner). You still have to mine into a can and have someone pick up that can right? If you're using an orca, the orca pilot is just sitting there right (he doesn't mine)? Couldn't the orca pilot be bothered to keep track of who has turned in what ore? Count cans to make it easier. (Do you call for partial cans to be picked up all that often?) I don't understand why it's too much work to keep track.
The other comment I see a lot in this tread is about philanthropy. Being charitable to smaller miners is fine. But you don't go to Jita, and sell your wares for a loss do you? Or buy the overpriced item, because you feel they need the money, right? You play the Industrial role to be successful. A system that rewards miners a fair share is better. The Hulk pilot can then choose to give it away if he wants. I'm sure any cruiser pilot coming into the op is expecting only a fair share (if they expect an even split, knowing they are contributing less, then aren't THEY the ones being greedy?)
As I said, I'm not a miner, but I've been rolling around the idea of training up to be some sort of mining supervisor. I would like to be the guy sitting in the orca, doing the monitoring, counting, running a smooth operation. It doesn't seem like "too much work" at all, it's spreadsheets, this is a spreadsheet game. It sounds like perfect job for anyone who likes this game.
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Naschen
Minmatar Deep Black Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.28 06:08:00 -
[45]
to the OP... why the hell are you including *rank* in that list of factors? rank in the corp should not matter at all to what your share is.
my own view on mining ops is, if it's an actual corp op? it all goes to the corp so it can reach it's goal. your payout will come when that goal is reached.
group mining on the other hand is in my opinion about doing it better than you can by yourself.
Originally by: Laiyna
*snip* - Players (not accounts) that helped the whole ops get equal share. *snip* I myself would be more in favor of splitting for each account that actively helped, but I do not make these ops happen :)
Laiyna
(was originally going to only include the first line in the quote but then left the second to note that I did see the per account thing is not your preference ;) )
I don't mind at all the idea of "for fun" mining ops with the ore being equally split among everyone who turned up for the occasion, but it had better be by *useful* account or I"m not going anywhere near it. (your lolalt with it's noob frigate and civilian miner do not deserve a equal share)
one of my previous corps changed from a per account share with a percentage of the overall take going to corp, to a per person share with the same corp take. At the time I had 2 active miner accounts who were each among the top yielding miners in corp for the ore we were mining. I tried to explain why I thought it was a bad idea, got called a greedy bastard and never did turn up to any more ops. (yep greedy bastard even though I was occasionly donating minerals to the corp)
with my current corp, I allways offer to fleet other corp members who are mining in the same system as me. But I don't offer to do a group mining op with them, it's just a offer of a fleet bonus for their solo mining, meaning they're free to come and go as they please and so am I without worry about what somone else may be doing.
oh and to anyone who thinks that's anti social not running a actual group mining op.. are you trying to tell me the only times you talk to your corp mates is when your all doing the same thing in the same spot?
------ Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself |
Kalasz
Galactic Collective - Caldari Division Sovereign Technologies
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Posted - 2009.11.28 07:55:00 -
[46]
This is something I found that Halada (of Halada's Mining Guide fame) had posted to outline how mining ops would work for his corp. I've never tried to put it into practice, but it looks well planned out. It doesn't all fit so I pasted as I much as I could so people didn't have to go to to the website if they didn't want to. I think what's pasted below gives a good enough picture of a share system.
Quote: 3. Mining
As mentionned earlier, mining is the center activity of LSJV. With access to over 50 belts, LSJV exclusively mines Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Mercoxit and occasionally. Using a custom application called "Mining Buddy", we record in real time mining ops, who is attending, for how long, what ship they were in and how much was mined.
I have devised a special program that is exclusive to LSJV and has since its launch made its proofs. The program approaches an "Instant Payout" scheme, where a certain cut off the value of the ore is taken by the corp (30%) and the miner is paid directly, usually the same day, for the ore he mined that day.
Using a special web-based application called Mining Buddy, LSJV uses a fair distributing system of the shares involved in between the different miners.
Quote: Hauler - 2.5
Tank (alt) - 0.5 Tank - 1 Booster - 1 Booster +Tank - 1.5
Mining Cruiser - 1.5 Mining Battleship - 2.0 Retriever - 2.0 Covetor - 3.0 Hulk- 3.5 Mining Buddy registers the amount of time you spent in the belt as well as which ship you were flying, and at the end of the op, computes the total value of everything that was mined and automatically calculates your cut in ISK.
Example: You field one Hulk pilot, as well as a hauler alt. For the sake of simplicity, everyone mined or hauled for the same amount of time, so this variable will be excluded.
Quote: Hulk: 3.5 shares Hauler: 2.5 shares ------------------------- Total: 6 shares So at the end of the op, you would get 6 shares from the total value of the mining operation.
You should notice haulers are highly paid for the hard work they do, and this system also rewards those who field alts.
To facilitate hauling, a POS was erected in each system the corp is allowed to mine in. This allows for quicker hauling sessions and also acts as protection if hostiles are reported. The corporation will use its logistic assets (Rorqual or Jump Freighter) to move the ore from the POS to the refinery.
Show me the money (an over simplified example)
LSJV .................................. VS ......................... Going it Solo Via Local Sales to
LSJV Pays for 200 Bistot.......................................Local buy orders in 1Ix $1,151,534........................................ ..................$1,022,340 -10% Refining Tax ...............................................-10% Refining Tax $1,036,381........................................ ..................$920,106 -20% Base Tax of Loan Star...............................-20% Avg Waste Refining at 1ix /w avg Skills $829,104.......................................... ...................$736,085 +50% Booster Available at Most Ops $1,243,65
= Mining with LSJV produces 69% More than mining alone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even though this is mandatory for all LSJV miners. I (Deliceous) personally recommend it to all Alliance members to join LSJV mining ops as it will dramatically increase the amount earned by each participant. This is why LSJV is able to mine in 1 op what other corps can mine in 1 week
The post in its entirety can be found: http://www.lsjv-eve.com/showthread.php?p=5042
Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Sep'Shoni
Gallente Carpe Diem inc. Celestial Shadows
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Posted - 2009.12.01 13:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jazz Ark Thanks for the all the perspectives. It sounds like some even-split system is most common. Nice and easy to administer ...but it does make me wonder why Hulk-owners are so selfless. Surely they have things to save up for too, right?
...
Because when we were newbs our corp mates did the same thing for us. :)
If its a big op the sheer drudgery of keeping track of everything and doing the math then contracting the right amount of minerals to the right person is not worth the extra minerals. Its supposed to be a fun game, not an accounting headache. I can solo mine any time I want to if I'm feeling greedy but mining in a group op is more fun.
And my bonuses are good enough fleeted that I'll pay a newb in a cruiser 10% of the total take just for the bonus.
Its good to be generous to the haulers and give them a full share so that they won't resent the work and be more willing to help out. With a hauler I can do a little better than 3 cans per hour but if I have to do my own hauling its 5 cans/2hours absolute max. And a happy hauler will help me take the minerals to the market or to my manufacturing base too and so save me the tedium of repeatedly plodding 6-10 jumps in an industrial.
IMO, being generous this way creates a win-win situation of goodwill among corp mates and allows people to enjoy the game more fully. Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Chi'kote
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Posted - 2009.12.01 16:45:00 -
[48]
Dominion is your savior! With the new fleet control, you just need to turn on the loot recorder. Not only does it record who recovers what loot when you mission / pvp, but it also records who mines what. So just start up a fleet for your mining op, turn on the loot recorder, then at the end of the op you will know exactly who mined what. Base payouts off of that if you so choose. |
Borun Tal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.01 16:59:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Chi'kote Dominion is your savior! With the new fleet control, you just need to turn on the loot recorder. Not only does it record who recovers what loot when you mission / pvp, but it also records who mines what. So just start up a fleet for your mining op, turn on the loot recorder, then at the end of the op you will know exactly who mined what. Base payouts off of that if you so choose.
The loot recorder sounds interesting. Can't wait to try it out tonight (assuming there aren't any serious bugs after Dominion).
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Lacolo Basema
Kotar Engineering
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Posted - 2009.12.01 18:44:00 -
[50]
I was thinking the loot tracker will be awesome for mining ops as well :D
But how should boosters, such as a Orca, and haulers get their cut? I was originally thinking the booster could get a percentage of the mining amount bonus he gives, because that's effectively what he has mined. That doesn't work on ice mining though.
Any thoughts?
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Mara Tessidar
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Posted - 2009.12.01 20:25:00 -
[51]
Best solution I've seen in my experience is this: 1. Each person jet-cans what they've mined (this is presuming you have guards and/or you're in a secure location). Otherwise GSCs are used. 2. A hauler comes by and picks up the ore, recording how much each person has contributed (usually in units of ore, not m3). This is not very difficult, though it does require some accuracy on the part of the hauler. 3. All the ore gets pooled and refined by the best refiner possible. 4. All the minerals get sold or used. 5. Corp taxes and guarding fees are deducted. 6. Isk is paid out based on performance (each miner gets a percentage of the profits equal to what he contributed).
Say a corp has a 10% tax, and the guards get 3% of whatever is mined plus all the salvage and stuff from the rats. So, 87% of what is refined actually reaches the pockets of the miners (which isn't too shabby, although it could be better). That 87% is divvied up amongst the miners by the percent of the ore that each miner contributed. Simple and effective.
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Opportunity Costs
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.09 20:09:00 -
[52]
IMHO a mix of two theories is the best way...
A) split evenly is not fair, as Hulk pilots income would be seriously nerfed by that bantam player.
B) complex maths and formulas are useless, as it turns mining ops into headaches
A nice solution:
1) toss it all inside same can/hangar 2) sell for profit, or calculate how much worth the ore is 3) keep a % to corp [transfer it to corp wallet] 4) calculate the average isk/member 5) fix it +/- 30% depending on ship, time spent, etc. 6) proceed with payments
obviously this is far from perfect splitting, but its more fair than split-even and also gives haulers/defenders/noobs a nice bigger income than they "deserve".
__________________________________ - Mining your own minerals doesnt drop your manufacturing costs! - Marginal earnings is what actually counts - Time is isk and enjoyment is isk aswell |
Elrinarie
Gallente Scan This
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Posted - 2009.12.09 23:53:00 -
[53]
my mining calculator does a good amount of what you ask. The only thing I think it could do better is handle booster pilots (orca/etc)
Insert in character data
M3 per laser and cycle time for miners m3 per trip for haulers no real stats for defense, but present or not
Then you tally all of the mined minerals
assign people to their roles, and assign a % based on role
If miners get 40% of the minerals, and 1000 trit is the result, then the miners share is 400. If there were 10 miners, with different amounts of time and skill. One miner would get 100 another 30 just depends on the stats.
This is where there is a little bit of play needed as you may need to adjust this based on sheer numbers involved in the different roles. You can also just auto assign the numbers based on the total time each person was in that role.
For example if you only had 1 defense that worked 5 hours, he would get 5 points in his spot. If you had 10 miners that varied between 2-5 hours, the total miner value would be somewhere between 20-50. All of the numbers then turn into a percentage.
Either case, check my calculator out and ask me if you have questions
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1164092 --------------------- Creator of another Mining Calculator |
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Shirestorm Industry
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Posted - 2009.12.10 00:16:00 -
[54]
I've run two kinds of ops.
1 - Help the newbie style: it all goes in one pot, everyone gets a cut based on time (total up by 1/4 hours they mined/hauled/guarded then divide the pot among all)
2 - Ability based: time mining, share based on time in. Frigates 1 share, haulers/guards/cruisers 2 shares, barges 3 shares, orca/hulk 4 shares If you mine for 1 hour you get 4 shares x your role/ship mod. 1 hour in a hulk/orca = 14 shares.
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Opportunity Costs
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.11 13:50:00 -
[55]
another method:
player A strips Veldspar player B strips Scordite player C strips Plagioclase (...)
that way its easier to determine how much mined who. __________________________________ - Mining your own minerals doesnt drop your manufacturing costs! - Marginal earnings is what actually counts - Time is isk and enjoyment is isk aswell |
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Shirestorm Industry
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Posted - 2009.12.11 13:59:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Opportunity Costs another method:
player A strips Veldspar player B strips Scordite player C strips Plagioclase (...)
that way its easier to determine how much mined who.
As long as you got enough ore types for the fleet... when I run ops there is usually a fleet of at least 10-20.. though I have been pushing my wing commander skill up after one where we had two foremans in orcas in the same system... 14 belts down in 3 hours.
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Opportunity Costs
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.11 14:00:00 -
[57]
yeah well __________________________________ - Mining your own minerals doesnt drop your manufacturing costs! - Marginal earnings is what actually counts - Time is isk and enjoyment is isk aswell |
Winslow E
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Posted - 2009.12.11 15:31:00 -
[58]
Check out this link for a solution to all your problem http://atlanticlink.com/eve
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Akira Menoko
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Posted - 2009.12.11 18:39:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lacolo Basema
But how should boosters, such as a Orca, and haulers get their cut? I was originally thinking the booster could get a percentage of the mining amount bonus he gives, because that's effectively what he has mined. That doesn't work on ice mining though.
The gang link that reduces the mining laser cycle time (can't remember it's name) effectively gives a bonus to Ore and Ice yield by having more cycles per hour than you can without it. A percentage of the extra cycles could go to the Orca pilot's payout.
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Akira Menoko
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Posted - 2009.12.11 18:47:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Winslow E Check out this link for a solution to all your problem http://atlanticlink.com/eve
Only if you give us a userid and password.
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