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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.11.23 09:36:00 -
[1831]
The problems with having and keeping an 800 man blob are forming the blob out of competent people beforehand by succeding regularly, keeping coherence between the leadership and groups in the blob (no infighting), keeping the blob busy, and making the blob fun compared to doing small roams or pirating.
We blob cosistantly from an concentrated area and it works just fine. Titans are not particularly daunting unless they are backed up by an enemy blob anyway atm. Solo titan started trying to antiblob us there would be cloaky hictors and covops flying all over the place and people xing up with 75+k ehp ships left and right.
Titans are not anti-blob. The difficulty of keeping 800 people together is anti-blob.
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Zargyl
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.23 09:38:00 -
[1832]
I am just a PvE player who will probably never be able to fly such a huge ship. Even though that might be the case, when talk comes about these massive city-sized ships that are super-caps even PvE'ers like me do listen. Even if you canĘt fly them you surely do ogle at screenshots and like to hear stories told of their might.
So it does come as quite a sad surprise when one looks at some new dev blog this close before release and doesnĘt see the motherships we have been looking for. And it does also come as quite a disappointment when confronted with the quality of work put into it as well. WasnĘt the motherships rework communicated as one of the main features of Dominion (besides the Sov changes and the cool UI upgrades)?
As a scientist I am quite happy to see graphs, but graphs with no facts and no insight into the formulae and thoughts behind them are only good to impress kids going to elementary school.
The dev-blog is also contradictory - a fact that has already been pointed out by a myriad of other posters. We are told how vital a role is for the behemoths that are capital ships, but we arenĘt told what the role would be. ShouldnĘt this be the first thing fixed in a design process and not something that getĘs changed days before release? Graphs for any kind of (scientific or not) model are worthless without insight into what parameters went into them and what assumptions were made. And balancing should be done either by looking at bare stats and not taking modules into account OR by taking modules into account in ALL cases. It looks like that in the considerations presented to us a mix was used. This does create a different set of parameters and you canĘt balance values if said values use different variables. And itĘs even worse when some parameters entered into your equations (which sadly are not shown) are wrong (like the target painting thingy).
Sadly this is not the Excellency we have been promised by CCP.
I do post this to point out the fact that not only mothership pilots do read this and are affected/disappointed in the quality of work that went into Mr. Nozh's article.
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Eniy Oh
Gallente United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.11.23 09:44:00 -
[1833]
Originally by: ByFstugan
My vote is to make the MS's into Battle Carriers (new name instead of Super Carriers) and keep the old ones as Logistics Carriers. I strongly also agree to a good buff to the internal rep - even with double or more active rep bonus it wont be much compared to the EHP atm.
This would be a good solution I think. "Normal" carriers are about as "cheap" as faction/t2 battleships and tech 3 ships, which would justify their limited role. If then you need to buy about 4-5 times more to get a carrier that can deal DPS, it'd make perfect sense.
Anyone else agreeing? --- The one whose ship names don't pass the sanity test while the rest of him is rather sane |
IronGoldenEagle
The New Era Huzzah Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.23 10:07:00 -
[1834]
Thx for the outporuing of support all, Ms pilots, titan pilots, Cap ship pilots and many non ones alike.
In just another example of how excited I was for the Abathur changes my friend and I had MSs lined up to be built (did not send in payment b4 the new annoucnments as we were 3rd and 4th in a cue respectivley) We had watched 2 MSs rip apart a sieged Dread with their fighter bombers and we wanted to be dual dropping our MSs into capital fleet fights, be they in system or in the enemies terrirtory. Finally, here was the chance to enjoy these ships that were supposed to be beasts but which we had seen relegated to assinging fighters from POS shields 95% of the time. Instead we are left with the same old thing, I've already dumped my Phoenix in disgust at its continuing ineffectiveness and I'm in the market for a CCP Nozh Capital Target Painter if anyone has one.
The next level of Eve, and really the last ones I ever wanted to achieve have been destroyed for me. My capitals no longer interest me, my alliance can never (huzzah or whoever Im with) take over all of 0 sec like people used to fear/dream of during the Great War, and now the next tiers of ships, MS and Titans, are now completely undesirable rather than just mostly. The lights are going out all over Tranquility, and no one knows when they will be lit again.
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Van Doren
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Posted - 2009.11.23 10:15:00 -
[1835]
8 Days left. Dunno why you all still bother. I guess you can all wish for a miracle but this expansion is no longer about cap ships. At least not about the MS and the Nag anymore.
It will probably be considered as a troll but they worked with the community and in the end, they did what they want putting all that work in the trash bin. Next year, we'll probably have Titans with paintballs, motherships with fighters painting POSes and dreads repping each other.
At least there is a new broswer and mail client. Not a total waste of time.
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.23 12:59:00 -
[1836]
Originally by: Eniy Oh Edited by: Eniy Oh on 23/11/2009 09:51:14
Originally by: ByFstugan
My vote is to make the MS's into Battle Carriers (new name instead of Super Carriers) and keep the old ones as Logistics Carriers. I strongly also agree to a good buff to the internal rep - even with double or more active rep bonus it wont be much compared to the EHP atm.
This would be a good solution I think. "Normal" carriers are about as "cheap" as faction/t2 battleships and tech 3 ships, which would justify their limited role. If then you need to buy about 4-5 times more to get a carrier that can deal DPS, it'd make perfect sense.
Anyone else agreeing?
Edit: this would still shed tears come to think of it (mine as well, I fly a carrier also). Regular carriers as they are already provide a decent ammount of DPS (1500dps with 15 fighters) they'd then lose, hmm.
To be clear. I didn't mean the carrier of present date needed to be either nerfed from fighters or changed - I think they got a good balance as it is and their firepower isn't at all to much for a logistics carrier.
What's more important is that the "Battle Carriers" (if that's an acceptable name) is stripped from it's logistics bonuses and their bonuses applied to the new offensive role. Perhaps also some leadership bonuses should be applied? _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
afrobus
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Posted - 2009.11.23 14:13:00 -
[1837]
Originally by: mittani At Fanfest, CCP kept going on about 'Excellence' as their corporate motto. Let's fling that at them. How exactly does this count as excellence, or god forbid 'hardening the **** up'? Is 'Excellence' ruining capitals with an incompetent after the playerbase had participated in a transparent, two-way feedback process that was widely hailed?
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EliteSlave
Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.23 14:25:00 -
[1838]
Isnt it funny that these changes are brought about when a period of the CSM isnt in session?
onto the topic, these ships need a role fast and need it before dominion, atleast if a role isnt delegated by then atleast give them an HP buff so that they will be semi inline with the supercapital changes, it is highly needed or else it shows that CCP isnt willing to listen to the member base, its funny how these changes are being neglected and ignored.
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.11.23 14:49:00 -
[1839]
Originally by: Peryner
DAMN STRAIGHT! Honestly I don't understand the "I'm a mothership polit and these changes are going to make me quit"
Maybe the fact that motherships as they are now will be two volleyed by titans, meaning that without at least an HP boost, the expensive ship they are stuck in is completely unusable (it will take like 15 seconds to light a cyno, jump in two titans an pop them).
Basically in any kind of dangerous situation MS are now confined inside a POS forcefield.
IMHO they need at a minimum to boost their HP. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Zumbala
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.23 15:48:00 -
[1840]
Originally by: Tommy Blue Edited by: Tommy Blue on 22/11/2009 00:20:34
Originally by: Honest Smedley In the form everyone liked, they were too powerful
Because a ship that has a giant buffer tank, cannot dock, costs 8-10x more and does 2x (or was it 3x) more damage than a dread, and can only hit dreadnoughts is overpowered.
Actually yes. Because then any tackled MS would just had to logoff, since it would have been impossible to kill it within the 10 minute timer, except by hotdropping 150 dreads in the top of it. Risk, reward, etc...
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Honest Smedley
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:06:00 -
[1841]
Edited by: Honest Smedley on 23/11/2009 16:07:18 Boosting the MS without obsoleting carriers:
1.) Allow carriers to use fighter bombers.
2.) Focus MS development in a different direction. (Logistics) -> Reduce the number of active drones, fighters and fighter bombers on MSs to match carriers. -> Move bonuses off DPS where present to remote armor/hull repair or shield/energy transfer. -> Introduce low-slot MS module equivalents to gang links that boost navigation/shield. -> Introduce mid-slot MS module equivalents to gang links that boost targeting/armor. -> Give MSs bonuses to fit up to three MS gang link modules at a time. -> Give MSs bonuses to MS gang link module bonuses comparable to what Titans have today. -> Radically increase the hangar size of MSs. -> Increase the jump range of MSs. -> Increase the effective hit points of MSs so they can withstand 3-4 titan DDs. -> Remove their remote ECM burst ability.
3.) Nerf titans further. (Make them only compelling to own when they're on the battlefield) -> Remove their ability to bridge other ships. -> Remove their bonuses to gang links. -> Return their turret bonus to 200%/level. -> Introduce additional mutually-exclusive super weapons in the future to add value. -> Add racial remote EW bursts similar to the ECM bursts MSs currently have as 'non-super' weapons. -> Limit the racial remote EW bursts to 1 per Titan through fitting requirements.
4.) Never introduce another super cap class ship to EvE.
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Myrkala
Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:11:00 -
[1842]
Posting with my new signature, read it people. -
NO SPLIT WEAPON BONUSES ON THE NAGLFAR PLEASE! |
Zumbala
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:20:00 -
[1843]
Originally by: Honest Smedley
3.) Nerf titans further. (Make them only compelling to own when they're on the battlefield) -> Remove their ability to bridge other ships.
You know that titan bridge is actually the only thing that does not seems overpowered on titan, right?
Originally by: Honest Smedley
4.) Never introduce another super cap class ship to EvE.
At least we agree on this one. Titan should never have been introduced into Eve, as a start.
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:26:00 -
[1844]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 23/11/2009 16:27:38
Postpone SOV nul-sec changes - release everything else. Nothing has received the amount of negative response than these SOV/CAPITAL SHIP proposed changes. Almost every other new feature in Dominion has been met with positive if not enthusiastic welcome. So why not just release the good - and work on polishing SOV more since many players clearly dislike the proposed changes - whether they actually will work or not really doesn't matter at this point.
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Viggen
Caldari The Lunatic Asylum Notorious Organization of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:30:00 -
[1845]
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Originally by: Peryner
DAMN STRAIGHT! Honestly I don't understand the "I'm a mothership polit and these changes are going to make me quit"
Maybe the fact that motherships as they are now will be two volleyed by titans, meaning that without at least an HP boost, the expensive ship they are stuck in is completely unusable (it will take like 15 seconds to light a cyno, jump in two titans an pop them).
Basically in any kind of dangerous situation MS are now confined inside a POS forcefield.
IMHO they need at a minimum to boost their HP.
Motherships have gone back to there TQ state, but still have there HP buffs:-
BASE STATS:- Aeon TQ Hull - 287,500 ... SISI - 575,000 TQ Armour - 275,000 ... SISI - 1,100,000 TQ Shield - 212,500 ... SISI - 490,000 Nyx TQ Hull - 300,000 ... SISI - 600,000 TQ Armour - 262,500 ... SISI - 1,050,000 TQ Shield - 225,000 ... SISI - 540,000 Wyvern TQ Hull - 275,000 ... SISI - 550,000 TQ Armour - 237,500 ... SISI - 590,000 TQ Shield - 250,000 ... SISI - 1,000,000 Hel TQ Hull - 262,500 ... SISI - 525,000 TQ Armour - 250,000 ... SISI - 600,000 TQ Shield - 237,500 ... SISI - 990,000
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:33:00 -
[1846]
Edited by: Sertan Deras on 23/11/2009 16:33:06 I see CCP has gone in to full "put fingers in ears and go lalalala" mode.
e: If they don't at least keep the HP buffs (as Sisi seems to indicate they are), CCP truly has lost it's mind.
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Pelleaon
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:44:00 -
[1847]
Edited by: Pelleaon on 23/11/2009 16:44:23
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 23/11/2009 16:27:38
Postpone SOV nul-sec changes - release everything else. Nothing has received the amount of negative response than these SOV/CAPITAL SHIP proposed changes. Almost every other new feature in Dominion has been met with positive if not enthusiastic welcome. So why not just release the good - and work on polishing SOV more since many players clearly dislike the proposed changes - whether they actually will work or not really doesn't matter at this point.
I like the new sov-changes. Oh: And **** those guys who go like "We all liked those Supercap-changes" cause i don't like it and i don't want to get mixed up with those bull****ting ppl.
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Lalai Dama
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:47:00 -
[1848]
Well one friend was wondering if a mass player exit could cause the end of eve.
I visioned myself, a demigod with my hardwires sitting in the rain on a dark day in a once active market place on a planet. Now abandoned. I see me repeating these epic words from Bladerunner end scene and it all made sense: ............................................ I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Perimeter. I watched Cerberus's glitter in the dark near Teonusude Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in the rain.
Time die
.......................................... ofc it is to mellow, and the end of eve is not near i hope but i felt like sharing
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.11.23 16:54:00 -
[1849]
Originally by: Pelleaon Edited by: Pelleaon on 23/11/2009 16:44:23 I like the new sov-changes. Oh: And **** those guys who go like "We all liked those Supercap-changes" cause i don't like it and i don't want to get mixed up with those bull****ting ppl.
So I see. Since you yourself like it the changes should go through? Never mind the large number of players who are unhappy with the new changes - as long as you like it then it's OK. Who cares about the people you play with right?
I guess that's the attitude CCP is taking now too. They like what they're doing, so why pay attention to their player base? Who cares about the players who play their game?
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Honest Smedley
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:03:00 -
[1850]
Originally by: Zumbala
Originally by: Honest Smedley
3.) Nerf titans further. (Make them only compelling to own when they're on the battlefield) -> Remove their ability to bridge other ships.
You know that titan bridge is actually the only thing that does not seems overpowered on titan, right?
I personally don't care for the effect titan bridges have on the game, so it is less of an issue of overpowered or not and more of a 'bad game design' issue from my perspective.
The root problem CCP has with Titans, however, is that they have enough logistical utility off the field to justify building them and not enough utility on the field to justify using them in a manner that puts them at risk. Remove jump bridging and any gang or warfare link related bonuses from them and titans sitting at POSes are worthless. To keep them worth owning, CCP would then have to increase the battlefield utility to compensate. Increasing damage on the guns and adding remote racial EW bursts is one step, but the promise of future mutually exclusive super weapons is clearly where the payoff would be.
The root problem CCP has with MSs is that they're currently big carriers with a logistics role and disproportionate penalties (cost and inability to dock). With Titans turned into battlefield terrors, MSs can take on a much more logistic-heavy role that solves most of the balancing issues CCP has. They would be significant logistical upgrades over a carrier to justify the added penalties, but no better (and perhaps even slightly worse) with respect to DPS.
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Aequitas Veritas
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:20:00 -
[1851]
Moving JPG to motherships is a very very bad move, ud then have fleets bridgeing all over the place. This would result in blobbing and less pvp since whenever you see 4 ships, u can be sure that there are another 10 sitting at a mom somewhere ready to jump in. The expense of the Titan prevents that somewhat.
With regards to Titans, do they still have the entirely useless 100% damage / level still? Cus the only thing we'll see is the continuing of driveby dd's if thats their only on field ability...
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:21:00 -
[1852]
If you can't balance a dual bonused naglfar can't you remove one of the types of weapons on it so we don't have to have 30% more training time? Will be even more obvious with the added citadel cruises I suspect. 30 days or so more to train.
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Honest Smedley
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:34:00 -
[1853]
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Moving JPG to motherships is a very very bad move, ud then have fleets bridgeing all over the place. This would result in blobbing and less pvp since whenever you see 4 ships, u can be sure that there are another 10 sitting at a mom somewhere ready to jump in. The expense of the Titan prevents that somewhat.
With regards to Titans, do they still have the entirely useless 100% damage / level still? Cus the only thing we'll see is the continuing of driveby dd's if thats their only on field ability...
I'm not suggesting moving JBs over to MSs. I'm suggesting getting rid of them entirely, or moving them to a POS-only thing.
JBs are a bad mechanic on Titans. They would be a bad mechanic on MSs as well. Do away with them.
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Aequitas Veritas
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:44:00 -
[1854]
I guess its CCPs way of doing it since the Titan can't bring ppl with it when itself jumps. That would be much better, but i suppose its hard to code :(
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
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Zumardam
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:48:00 -
[1855]
Hum..Well Here goes ą...As IĘve Been a Player now for a few years and have gave up on 0.0, since there is no way to set up a sov with all the greedy corps out there taking all space up... so i wait for devs to make it playable not die able for all in 0.0.....
Need a BORG type or Fluid Space type race like ion Voyager show to keep the Very Large Corps/Well Established ones in check so little guys can play EVE too in 0.0.
Something has to be done or ill just close my 3 accounts and wait for another Space type MMO to come along that has a playable 0.0 type space instead of sucking up to the corps that have SOV and wont let small guys start.
ItĘs too bad that EVE-ONLINE canĘt be fully Experienced by all Players New, Old or smaller groups. Death will surly come to those who donĘt Get more Subscriptions, Thought we wanted people to Play EVE not push them away or force them into Crappy Corps that ask you for a arm and leg to just the privilege to fly in there space.
Signed Longtime EVE Fan, Getting VERY VERY tired of the Politics in 0.0!
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:58:00 -
[1856]
The little guy will never get a foot hold in 0.0, because numbers matter. They matter in the real world, they matter in EVE. What the "little guy" actually wants is a welfare hand out, because their e-Honour or total lack of social skills prevents them from playing in the big kid pool. Why you think your 20 man corp should have any hope of taking space from a 2500 man corp, I don't know...but you seem to think that.
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Kozmic
Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:04:00 -
[1857]
Sorry to see all the player feedback and SiSi testing go in vain.
To reiterate: please, revert changes to previous plans (put forward by CCP Abathur). They received a lot of positive feedback and extensive testing by actual players.
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John Zorg
Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:08:00 -
[1858]
Checking pages and pages of comments here, only like 2 posts from the devs with comments. They are either very busy trying to make their deadline or they don't really care what their player base thinks or wants. I think most of us are so involved in this game and would like to see it become even better than it really is...
Maybe a discussion would be an idea? Maybe just post some ideas from your side regarding the changes?... I can understand new ideas and concepts being secret but this is changing what we already have... some comments please devs...
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Baaldor
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:43:00 -
[1859]
Originally by: Zumardam
Something has to be done or ill just close my 3 accounts and wait for another Space type MMO
That would be great.
Please do.
tia.
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Esola
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Posted - 2009.11.23 19:08:00 -
[1860]
Any discussion of re-working capital ships, new tier 2 carriers, etc., has to start with the premise that CCP will not introduce new systems that threaten to obsolete battleships.
When CCP says they are protecting the future of the game, what they mean is they are protecting the viability of the ships that one-year old characters fly. New subscribers are the source of growth and future of the game, and CCP will not threaten their game experience. Dominion's most significant changes, such as providing space in null sec, DD removal, are designed to enhance the game play and extend the average subscription time of new players.
Retaining new subscribers is a laudable goal which IĘm sure every player supports. But CCP needs to find a way to provide progression for veterans as well.
But veteran progression presents CCP with a significant design problem. How can they introduce powerful new systems for veteran progression, while not obsoleting the ships of the one-year old and younger characters who represents the future of the game.
The outcry over dropping super carriers just demonstrates that CCP has allowed veteran game play to become stale, and veterans are very anxious for additional progression. But I donĘt believe CCP knows how to provide powerful new toys for veterans without threatening the game play of newer players. That why moms have languished in their current state for so long.
And that is why I'm rather pessimistic about seeing any new veteran progression content, such as super carriers. If you start with the assumption that battleships can't be threatened, I don't see how powerful new ships and weapons can be introduced.
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