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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.11.20 03:44:00 -
[1]
There's a lot of pre-traumatic stress in the community right now. Lots of threads about CCP's "incompetency", particularly in regard to certain developers. To new people, EVE is what it is right now, they do not have anything to compare it to. It's a clean slate, people draw relatively unbiased conclusions based on what happens, while people like me are damaged. I have a nostalgic sense about this game, and in all honesty, I sometimes miss the 'overpowered' aspects of certain ships in the past. "Because it was more fun, to me".
Now obviously this game is not about me, or those who feel the same. To me, for instance, renaming motherships to SuperCarriers allowing them to dock and sizing down the pricetag seems just weird. But if someone never played this game before and that's what the ships were called, and that's what they were doing. Then that's what they would base it out of would there ever come a change to "Super carriers" in the future. Maybe some dev decided to rollback (not likely, but hypothetically) and call them Motherships, make them unable to dock and up the pricetag. A lot of people would be angry, most likely. Except for the guys like me.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that what EVE is and what EVE is supposed to be is relative to ones point of reference, and I think many in this community are struggling in pages after pages, in thread after thread to discuss. In the middle of this, there is CCP. Without question there has been a lot of changes. Not only has the EVE-community grown, but to a proportional extent, so has the "raging". I know of no other community where so many are so passionate about a game, and what it might become.
Speaking as a player who has been actively playing EVE for years, I am hardly unbiased. I get very frustrated about some things that are done to EVE by hands that to me seem to fumble around with mechanics and gameplay that has been standing on very solid grounds. But man tends to cling to habits, once something becomes common - pretty much no matter what it is, we accept that as the norm. What it's supposed to be like. And any deviation, no matter what direction... is wrong. We know it in our hearts, it's a change so it must be for the worst. We make up solid reasonings as to why it's wrong, why it will ruin the game forever, and if the changes do reach Tranquility, we (me and those who are like me) make sure to remind everyone that CCP are idiots who ruined their own game. Because we had to get out of our comfort zones and try something different and experience this game once again as new players. Learn once more.
FLAVOUR OF THE MONTH
To many the acronym FOTM is a derogatory statement, it's sort of a reminder from people who have played for awhile that those that fly a certain kind of ship in a specific time period essentially are sheep because they're following a trend. Right now it's Amarr. Who would ever think that gallente blaster ships would ever be less powerful than an Amarr BS. People *****ed for several years about how much Amarr sucked. And now here it is, flavour of the month. I fly it, you do too. Up of course until the next future flavour. Minmatar. A lot of people are now preparing for the projectile age. And with it, a lot of Amarr pilots may change into flying all Minmatar, and some will stay with Amarr, claiming that those who switch are damn FOTM'ers. Just like the persistent Megathron-pilots who still swear by their plated, trimarked neutron megathron.
It is a fact that what EVE should be like is a matter of perspective, and for some of us, a matter of history. A point in time when we had the most fun in the game. That time is used as a point of reference to indicate that THIS time was when EVE as a whole, be it mechanics, community or balance was at it's best. And we can probably find arguments to support this, it's not really hard. Any claim has a reason. At least to one individual. (cont.)
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.11.20 04:10:00 -
[2]
THE OBJECTIVE REALITY
Some argue that there is an objective truth to anything. For instance, game imbalance. If one method of play (for instance RR BS) is more powerful than another, then that method of play is imbalanced. Anyone arguing anything different simply does not understand. This generates a lot of arguments on the forums, and to objectivists it's a very frustrating time. They know the truth, and can be very convincing in stating it. Similarly, a group of people having the same opinion can claim that they know the truth simply because of the amount of people who support a certain proposition. We see this in many threads, and it's a part of our values as so-called free democratic individuals. Reasonably if fifty pages in a thread agrees with a certain point - it must be true. To rhetorical populists, this can be a very powerful tool to sway ... for instance, developers.
Regardless of what criteria we choose to judge this game we care about, be it a subjectivist position, grounded by nothing more than emotion - we all still have opinions on how this game should be. And essentially, logically, we sympathize with anyone who agree with us. Some people of course like to play the devil's advocate, or the completely unbiased person. But in general I argue that when it comes to what a game should be, all of us, particularly as players have flawed perspectives of the game we are playing. Because if a change is to our benefit, it must be good, and vice-versa it must be bad. Trying to understand any other perspective than our own is very hard. And just following the instinct to "rage" is very comfortable and convenient. And the results of this behaviour is very obvious. It can be seen all across these forums.
WHERE I WAS GOING
With the longest ever introduction to a point of view, in an attempt to excuse (or explain) my bias, I now still wish to say that I believe that EVE is being mishandled. It seems that there is a big desire from CCP to always make a better expansion than the last, and in appeasing the general public, or listening to reason, or just general emotion on these forums, some changes have been reverted ... most likely out of fear of consequences based on biased data (such as this post). The postponement of Mothership changes in Dominion for instance seemed like they were postponed directly based on player input. And while at first glance, this might be a good thing. It gives a very sketchy impression of what the developers want to do with this game. If the base game design is so open to quick hasty changes, then how can it be balanced at all. To me it seems almost arbitrary how certain "things" just go from being a part of an expansion, to not being a part of it. Similarly it seems like there is a lot of room for inconsistency between developers and a general issue of miscommunication with the eagerly awaiting community.
MY ADVICE
To finish this huge post that no doubt will be ignored by some, and ridiculed by others. I think it also can show certain appreciation for the difficulty of handling a crowd of people so invested in this game, beyond the developers themselves. What CCP however need in my eyes is a clear gameplan. Maybe you already have one, if you do - you give very little insight to it, and allow for a lot of speculation to go rampant. My advice is to always be crystal clear about what your vision is, to yourselves and to us players. To be consistent. Respect the player's opinions, and understand that the product you have is a great piece of work. In my opinion the best MMO out there. But that you have to equally respect yourselves and your abilities to make the right calls. It seems since the t20 incident that you (CCP) have been walking on broken glass, and not squared your shoulders and been a bit too reluctant to show us that you know what's best for this game. And in that confidence, show it to us players as well.
Also, I'd like a lot more Oveur.
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Arcelian
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.20 04:16:00 -
[3]
What?
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Nocts
Minmatar Hmmzor.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 04:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Arcelian What?
For some reason, seeing these posts in succession forms a mental vision of a university processor teaching Trig to kindergarteners.
"Sin45degrees is equal to pi over four, which is also equal to OPP over HYP, which remains equal to 1 to the square of 2."
"Duckie?" ---------
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Krandor87
Gallente Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 05:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nocts
Originally by: Arcelian What?
For some reason, seeing these posts in succession forms a mental vision of a university processor teaching Trig to kindergarteners.
"Sin45degrees is equal to pi over four, which is also equal to OPP over HYP, which remains equal to 1 to the square of 2."
"Duckie?"
Apparently you don't know Trig
sin(45)=sin(pi/4)=sqrt(2)/2 ---------------------------------------
Whats a sig good for?
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Nocts
Minmatar Hmmzor.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 05:30:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Nocts on 20/11/2009 05:31:14
Originally by: Krandor87 Apparently you don't know Trig
sin(45)=sin(pi/4)=sqrt(2)/2
Missed my 2nd sin, good catch. And I said square instead of root. I do know Trig, it's just that I haven't woken up with coffee yet. You could give me an obtuse triangle and I'd call it a "cat" until I've had my coffee.
---------
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 06:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Krandor87
Originally by: Nocts
Originally by: Arcelian What?
For some reason, seeing these posts in succession forms a mental vision of a university processor teaching Trig to kindergarteners.
"Sin45degrees is equal to pi over four, which is also equal to OPP over HYP, which remains equal to 1 to the square of 2."
"Duckie?"
Apparently you don't know Trig
sin(45)=sin(pi/4)=sqrt(2)/2
Slowly tracks thread with a rifle and...
BOOM HEADSHOT --
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:17:00 -
[8]
Can't decide between "Holy bitter vet batman!" or "Holy old school trigonometry batman!"
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Slavemaster
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:30:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Slavemaster on 20/11/2009 07:30:21 The only one that Cries etc has nothing to do with gameplay, but that they lost Isk... So, all is good
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Danbar Roth
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:37:00 -
[10]
It's interesting to see how threads develop independend of OP. Someone should try copy pasting random wall of text sometime and see if someone even notice.
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Arvald
Caldari The Lumberjacks
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Danbar Roth It's interesting to see how threads develop independend of OP. Someone should try copy pasting random wall of text sometime and see if someone even notice.
i say we all get naked and party
screw you 5 minute timer |
Slavemaster
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:06:00 -
[12]
You look to angry to enjoy the show.... But, I can do my part the *get the show going
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: Danbar Roth It's interesting to see how threads develop independend of OP. Someone should try copy pasting random wall of text sometime and see if someone even notice.
i say we all get naked and party
Make out. Wanna? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Danbar Roth It's interesting to see how threads develop independend of OP. Someone should try copy pasting random wall of text sometime and see if someone even notice.
Read that long OP? If I wanted to listen to endless non-stop rambling and whining about trivial issues I'd just ask my gf about her day at work.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Slavemaster
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:28:00 -
[15]
I found ant under the bed last night, and he told me that I can join him on an intercalactical space adventure... But, I turned it down due to work related issuses
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Shanter
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Posted - 2009.11.20 09:14:00 -
[16]
Came expecting tears, left with math.
All in all, not disappointed.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2009.11.20 09:49:00 -
[17]
EVE IS CLOSE TO DIE!!! *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
fuze
Gallente Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2009.11.20 09:53:00 -
[18]
CCP has had CSM and round tables and still came up with some unpopular changes which some of them they reverted because of forum whinage. Why not throw out ideas on the forums and let the vocal mass decide?
What Tobias's wall-o-text is about that during the development of Eve other people stepped up and changed the game to what they think the people would like. But if you're a bitter old vet you've seen the inconsistencies of changing game mechanics during the years. Not that its unavoidable, but lacking in communications isn't.
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Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2009.11.20 09:54:00 -
[19]
MMO's change.
What once was FOTM becomes what only newbs use. What once was what newbs used, becomes FOTM.
MMO's change.
If you can't adjust, **** off and play another game.
I'm tired of people getting on the forums and *****ing and whining about "Changes" being bad.
Suck it up, adjust your playstyle, and move on.
What do you do when something new happens at your job? Quit?
What do you do when your spouse does something different in bed? Break up with them?
Jeez. Grow up and act like an adult and adjust to the damned game just like everyone else.
Or like you see posted in every other thread about whines about the game...
Go back to WOW.
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CCP Applebabe
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Posted - 2009.11.20 11:09:00 -
[20]
Thread has been cleaned up.
Please post constructively.
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Alex Raptos
Caldari Phoenix Rising.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 11:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Applebabe Thread has been cleaned up.
Please post constructively.
Please ban Artemis Rose for 30 days too. Don't want people being treated differently for so called spam/derailment/nonconstructive posting.
Originally by: Dirk Magnum I've become gay for Mark Harmon despite my initial reservations about the show NCIS but nobody will ever know
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Doomed Predator
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.20 11:35:00 -
[22]
I can't believe I actually read that. The only important question is why did they suddenly after weeks of testing decide to scrap the "old" MS buff for the "new" MS buff. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: fuze CCP has had CSM and round tables and still came up with some unpopular changes which some of them they reverted because of forum whinage. Why not throw out ideas on the forums and let the vocal mass decide?
What Tobias's wall-o-text is about that during the development of Eve other people stepped up and changed the game to what they think the people would like. But if you're a bitter old vet you've seen the inconsistencies of changing game mechanics during the years. Not that its unavoidable, but lacking in communications isn't.
Thank you for the 'too long, didn't read' version.
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Steve Celeste
Caldari Overdogs
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:59:00 -
[24]
tl;dr
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Also, I'd like a lot more Oveur.
Me too!!
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.11.20 16:31:00 -
[26]
Tobias Sjodin, if you wish your thread to be succesful, you need to include a concise td;lr version with your OP. Most of us here are not on the forums to read long and well-formed essays, we are here to escape from them. I got as far as the first post (insufficient will-power to continue) but I must say you bring up a lot of good points.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.11.20 16:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: James Tritanius Tobias Sjodin, if you wish your thread to be succesful, you need to include a concise td;lr version with your OP. Most of us here are not on the forums to read long and well-formed essays, we are here to escape from them. I got as far as the first post (insufficient will-power to continue) but I must say you bring up a lot of good points.
fuze provided it for you. :)
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MonwrathDisortium
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.11.20 16:47:00 -
[28]
<3 Tobias
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Sanctus Maleficus
Lambent Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.20 16:55:00 -
[29]
I'm a 3.5 year vet myself, not a super old schooler, but been around a while.
I agree with most of what you're saying Tobias.
I think the biggest problem we face is the balance pendulum. Sometimes, it is as if say, Amarr had a power rating of 1 and Gallente of 2. CCP then adds 2 to Amarr. So, now Amarr is 3, Gallente is 2. So, they add 2 to Gallente.
Now, that is of course an exaggeration, but you see it all the time in every MMO.
What I love... LOVE... about Eve is that it doesn't cater to the masses. Many of their changes still haven't broken this trend... unlike in other games where they give you a new class to play and it starts near max level! However I think the idea of the CSM itself is a dangerous one. I think its great for players to have a voice, but building an MMO is not a democracy. It should be a benevolent dictatorship.
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Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus However I think the idea of the CSM itself is a dangerous one. I think its great for players to have a voice, but building an MMO is not a democracy. It should be a benevolent dictatorship.
It's only dangerous if they're effective at swaying opinion or have real power/decision making power. CSM is none of that, and probably a quite clever PR ploy from CCP :)
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Marcus Atntony
The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:55:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Marcus Atntony on 20/11/2009 17:55:32 Simplified version: Do you have fun playing eve? ... I do so Iam going to keep playing. --> If you suddenly stop having fun playing eve because CCP moved a buff around ect, heres in idea, offer constructive ideas in the forums, or quite/take a break from eve. Not like new/other players are iching to keep the old the vets in the game.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:35:00 -
[32]
Tobias to have my babies please, not so much for the 'facts' in your post (because the "if 50 pages of replies agree it must be true" kinda discards human nature) but more for the "Please CCP, THINK about what you're doing. The sudden jerks in direction cause ripples and make people nervous".
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Alliance creation service, also corp updates |
Shmeria
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Marko Riva "Please CCP, THINK about what you're doing. The sudden jerks in direction cause ripples and make people nervous".
Heh. Because nobody at CCP ever considers change balancing.
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.20 21:32:00 -
[34]
I can sum it up in two words: Power Creep. It happens to all games that want to stay competitive and viable from a business perspective. You'll see it again and again. New expansion on the horizon, test details appear of ZOMBAWESUMTHINGMUSTGETEXPAKFORTIHS! then when release comes it's pre-nerfed down. Maybe later it gets buffed or changed. Tabletop RPG's are notorious for it, though in their case all a GM has to do is say 'GTFO' and...it G's TFO.
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Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.20 22:43:00 -
[35]
I agree with the most part of what Tobias said. Also id like to add that I think, mainly due to the so called 'Global Credit crisis', CCP have been working on adding features to eve that would attract more players as a quick fix in order to survive, making combat more about a quick slug fest than a thought out tactical encounter. As quick fixes go, once something new comes along thats more 'pew pew', those that came will leave and CCP will be back in the same boat. I believe also that CCP have lost sight of their own ambitions of what they had hoped to do with Eve and focused more on attracting more players, which is good but also bad. By this I mean that it is good because it makes Eve more alive, but at the same time bad as it has attracted a lot of 'pew pew' players. I wont go into my reasons for why I think this, but suffice to say I think the player base in eve has moved from its original 'strategic' players to its 'shoot anything that moves' players, all the while those of us that have been playing for years have witnessed all the patches and packages that have been released. For example, look at last years fan fest which is perfect example! Full of CCP saying ôwe want to do thisö and ôwe'd like to do thatö, you tube was flooded with walking in station/ambulation video and features on opeing your own in stsation premisis, 1st person shooter clips, presentations by Nvidia, particle graphics systems, atmospheric flight, and much much more. This year.... nothing. The entire fan fest was catered towards the big allinces and PVP'rs and their Allaince Tournemenet. There was very little for the rest of us. Nothing about what was to be of Eve. Its as if half of the population had been forgotten. After saving enough money to goto the eve fest and ALMOST going I was very pleased that I made the right choice and decided not to, because to be quite honest I feel as if I would have been bored to tears and that there would have been nothing for me. Anyway Ill leave it at that, but I do feel that CCP need to start thinking about the rest of us again. "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Overlord Anubis
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.23 17:36:00 -
[36]
EVE is going full out socialist if income distribution is the motive. This is a free market sand box or was and that was the draw. You are destroying what makes this game different and expect your mostly fanatical loyal player base to rebel against you if they believe you are breaking their game.
I warn you too much too fast = the end.
Want to move people out of empire? Then make 0.0 be profitable across all professions and stop trying to socially modify incomes. Is Eve a free market? The reasons for your recent market changes to moon mining by adjusting the profit of certain materials to even the income between the people who do not take risks and play station sim and those that make heavy risks by moon mining in 0.0. The financial reward should match the risk! Stop taxing us (via nerfs) to give money to newbies (easier income).
Teach a man to fish... rather than give him a government check for just sitting in a station.
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Baillif
Red Mist Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:05:00 -
[37]
NO MOAR WELFARE CHECKS FOR CAREBEARS!
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momo1
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:28:00 -
[38]
As IÆm not neither New or OLD to the Game. WE NEED GOOD CHANGES ...for getting NEW SUBSCRIBERS. ôThe current way isnÆt cutting it Boys n Girls!ö
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Oscardoodle
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:58:00 -
[39]
But...I love my plated trimark neutron mega
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Sanctus Maleficus
Lambent Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.23 22:11:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Trovax
Edit: Oh and what happened to the Eve Quarterly Economic News Letter?!! Something else thats been forgotten.
They're still around. One just came out, infact.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.11.23 22:29:00 -
[41]
Quote: The reasons for your recent market changes to moon mining by adjusting the profit of certain materials to even the income between the people who do not take risks and play station sim and those that make heavy risks by moon mining in 0.0.
I'm sorry... what?!?
The idea was to make the moon goo revenue a little harder to corner geographically because it will be spread out over a wider variety of moon types, and make it a little harder for alliances in prime space to earn astronimical amounts of passive income by crouching over a handful of key systems.
How does this change benefit people who "play station sim"?
What risks do you take harveting R64s?
To put this a bit closer to on topic, I really haven't heard many complaining about the redistribution of of moon goo, so apparently this was one change that has met general approval.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 22:55:00 -
[42]
Sometimes even if you do understand what's happening and are looking at it from a balanced point of view you just straight out disagree with CCP.
For example CCP have an annoying tendency to leave things half finished, then they will come and fix it back at a later date though they will likely only get the part that they didn't finish half done. For example t3 ships where supposed to have 5 subsystems yet only came out with 3 and a 4th one was added later, the 5th one has not been added yet and I havn't seen any plans for it yet either. This is an OK way to do it in that you bring out the basic system with basic objects and expand on number and tweek with system. This has it's advantages in that it lets them get user feedback on what they need to do and what changes they need to make it complete.
However this can be done wrong as well. For example the new sov system has no advantages for the defender at all, things like system scanner etc. are all still tied to the pos system. It's half built in that it has a complete sov system a half complete industry system and no defender system. Now the problem here is trying to work out what CCP want for the defenders, they've said they want to give you upgrades connected to the iHub to do stuff they also say they want it to be all emergant and us doing it rather than massive ccp built systems doing it. With the whole focus on bunching people up and making us more focused its gonna make strategies which right now are balanced (looking at afk cloaking here) become the new fotm for 0.0. The problem is these strategies already have tremendous support and opposition so it's gonna take a while for people to realise how sovereignty has affected a already hotely debated topic if they only listen to the forums.
If ccp would make complete systems instead of half systems that they try to develop with us stuff like this wouldn't happen. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions |
Berendas
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.23 23:35:00 -
[43]
Not a bad thread, not really rickety in any way and I wish that disgruntled players do not just stroll on by without reading and digesting it.
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike The Council.
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Posted - 2009.11.24 11:27:00 -
[44]
You running for CSM?
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari Miners In Possession
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Posted - 2009.11.24 11:38:00 -
[45]
Adapt, Overcome, or go the way of the dodo.
Some people will join, some will leave, but eve will not die overnight.
The important thing to realise is that the forums don't (usually) accurately reflect the mindset of the players, just the vocal minority.
Change. Meh. Been there, retrained after that.
6 years in and STILL having fun. |
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