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NEMESIS SIN
Caldari FURY.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 26/11/2009 15:28:32 I am pulling out o the leadership role of an alliance/coalition of substantial size, that has been geared towards claiming Sov in Dominion. The frustrations of running that mess, has compelled me to write this commentary.
Everyone thinks they have it all figured out (countless alliances and coalition leaders I mean). I have talked to so many I cant count anymore. They all think they have come up with a ôunique and original planö that will allow them to overthrow empires and claim sov for themselves. But the more people I talked to, the more I realized that everyoneÆs ôoriginal Ideaö is not so original after all, because what they fail to realize is that EVERYONE ELSE seems to have the exact same idea that they do.
And all of their ideas are based off mostly faulty information.
I have had the opportunity to look at Dominion from a uniquely informed prospective, so I suggest you take this thread with a bit more then a grain of salt if you are looking to become the next smudge on the sov map in a post Dominion universe.
Ok deep breath: Que wall of text (if you are 13 years old with A.D.D, don't read it with out taking your medication first.)
=======================================================================
Talking to the leaderships of a functioning null sec based alliance, is vastly different then talking to the leadership of that Empire/Low Sec based alliance that thinks they can now become a Sov holder (My favorite are those LOL Empire-only alliance that think that Cearbears can somehow cut it in Nullspace)
So here it is in a nutshell:
1.) R64 Moons are getting nerfed! YAY \0/
R64Æs will still be valuable enough post nerf, its not like they are being nerfed to 0 or something. AND the people who cheer for this are missing a very vital point: there WILL ALWAYS be very valuable moons (and moon combinations) in this game, and the big power blocks will STILL own them ALL with their massive capital ship blobs. I mean just look at what the IT alliance is doing in syndicate now (for example). You canÆt even claim sov in NPC space, and yet they are taking Pandemics moons.
So you see all those sweet, new, high end moon combinations, you still wont be getting them . . .
2.) Space will cost much more to hold! The big power blocks will die YAY \0/
So your saying that you have a clue about how much playing POS spamming sovereignty games costs right now? (The POSæs, the fuel, the weapons, logistics and capital ship Pew Pew?) If you donÆt, then you cannot factor in how all this ôBeing Charged For Spaceö but no longer being charged for ôPOS Spamming and Defenseö will effect the large power blocks. And you are sending your alliance on a fools errand, if you think that this mechanic is your ticket in into 0.0.
The big empires will still own the exact same amount of sov, just at varying sov levels. Not to mention they will have the power to fly into your little spot of heaven and destroy everything in sight like a swarm of locus flying capital ships (you must also factor in how bored people get in null sec) In short the power blocks will shrink a LITTLE, but they will still hold as much space as they want to hold. And there is nothing you can do about it.
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CCP StevieSG
Minmatar C C P
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:25:00 -
[2]
Moved to Alliance discussion from EVE General.
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NEMESIS SIN
Caldari FURY.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:28:00 -
[3]
Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 26/11/2009 15:36:16 3.) But, but, but . . . They will have to interact with their space more too. They will have no choice but to shrink and give us space.
This may be partially true, but have you been paying attention to how some of the present Null Sec alliances are already mass recruiting? They are already getting bigger THEN THEY ALREADY ARE to compensate for the changing mechanics. So what your getting is an environment where there are more openings available WITHIN THE PRESENT, EXISTING NULL SEC ALLIANCES, for all of those countless would-be nullsec dwellers of empire and low sec.
Think of it this way, why would I want to join your little unknown (and probably fail) alliance when I can simply enter into one of the already established mega powers, and have access to some of the best space in the game?
SUMMARY:
My little group has been offered every single one of the options stated above over the last month and a half (by just about every big name in EVE Online) We have declined every single one, but if we hadnÆt, we would be a ôSov holderö right now. (AKA the newest Poser alliance.)
Personally I am through being an alliance leader and herding cats (yes its like herding cats). But, consider this fair warning if your goal is sov in a post Dominion universe. Its not going to be what CCP said it will be, if they had stuck to their originally released ideas, then yea, maybe it could have been awesome. But in true CCP fashion they didn't, and its being released pre-nerfed, and very little is going to change.
Take this for what you will . . . and ignore it at your own peril.
Edited: =========================================== Geeze that was a quick move lol
Ya know I am an alt in a 1 man corp atm right?? Isn't me posting here "against the rules" =======================================
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:45:00 -
[4]
Not having the balls to try just shows you would have never gotton sov anyway.
Good points, but anyone who read up on the changes, lived in nullsec before and gauged responses on forums from devblogs would realise these points.
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Chantacas
Minmatar Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:56:00 -
[5]
the large alliances would like to reply, but the thread has been moved to caod, so poasting rules apply.
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Fitz VonHeise
Caldari Eye Bee Em
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Posted - 2009.11.26 16:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN Personally I am through being an alliance leader and herding cats (yes its like herding cats).
I love this statement... and I agree with your comments.
Come find a nice Worm Hole... You can own your own system and visit all of Eve eventually.
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Eru Velari
Caldari Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate On the Rocks
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Posted - 2009.11.26 16:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN Personally I am through being an alliance leader and herding cats (yes its like herding cats).
Do you know a dutch guy whos name was Ammo in wow, perchance? :D
You are exactly right. We are running into the same annoying problem in [ICE]. We need to boost our ranks with hefty PVP corps to get into 0.0 on our own. Unfortunately the only way to recruit decent PVP corps is to allready hold space.
We have a powerfull industrial base with loads of dedicated miners (carebear noobs you call em)that could rake in serious isk in nullsec but as long as the moons are still the primary money maker, we are ****ed.
We have so much to offer, but thats all as usefull as sunshine and happy thoughts. We will still end up being a pet to someone or back in empire because CCP chickened out. BLEH.
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Faife
Minmatar Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:18:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Faife on 26/11/2009 17:18:00 Funny, the large alliances hate it cause it will make it impossible to keep sov as a large alliance, the small alliances hate it cause it will make it impossible to keep sov as a small alliance.
I guess CCP is doing something right.
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GunnerySergeant Blair
Caldari Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP StevieSG Moved to Alliance discussion from EVE General.
Moving into CAOD = destroying a quality thread ^^
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boliano
Caldari Archangels Assault Force Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:31:00 -
[10]
Hmmm well in case no one has noticed numbers rule eve.And if ur a small alliance realizing you cant take sov post domi, then heres an idea.All these hundreds of lil alliances that hought they could take sov should merge into one. I mean IT alliance figured out that numbers rule.
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Misanth
Amarr Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.11.26 17:48:00 -
[11]
I started to read the OP, figured I'd either hit a deliberate troll, or someone who didn't really know where to post it.. then hit this -
Originally by: CCP StevieSG Moved to Alliance discussion from EVE General.
- I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
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CCP StevieSG
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:15:00 -
[12]
Moderation Discussion removed. Moved to General Discussion.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:31:00 -
[13]
If the large 'power blocks' have enough active players on at all times of the day to police a huge sov then all the power to them. They deserve it.
No matter how you slice it, large organized corps/alliances are always going to do better than smaller ones, there's no way around that without really messing the game up, i'm just glad lazy napfest alliance/corps aren't going to be able to hold sov so easily. When you see someone holding a big piece of space, you know they're working day and night for it.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Ladani
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN The big empires will still own the exact same amount of sov, just at varying sov levels. Not to mention they will have the power to fly into your little spot of heaven and destroy everything in sight like a swarm of locus flying capital ships
Supposedly making sov more difficult to hold will somewhat distract them from doing this, but I really don't see how large alliances are gonna be distracted enough to prevent them from engaging whatever smaller empire alliances will try to base in those crappy systems in the neighborhood. They can still send roaming gangs there, they can still drop capitals on them as they are trying to get up in the new 0.0 area, and bully them into becoming renters or drive them out of that space. Just like it happens right now.
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Plaetean
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:48:00 -
[15]
As a general rule, low sec/empire alliances are full of **** anyway. That's why they're suffering the drawbacks of being in an alliance without the benefits of 0.0.
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loony thezoon
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:18:00 -
[16]
If you are going for a wall of text, learn to spell.
Shocking ignorance.
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Salmeria
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:21:00 -
[17]
My creative plan involves selling all of the moon materials I have stockpiled for 3 months now. Gonna be awesome.
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NEMESIS SIN
FURY.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:28:00 -
[18]
They moved me back \0/
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NEMESIS SIN
FURY.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:41:00 -
[19]
Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 26/11/2009 20:46:17 I didn't get to finish my post before CPP moved me, and them moved me back again. So I will finish here.
Insert text:
=============================================================
But More Space Will Be Available Right?
Yes, but . . . here are your LOL options.
Option 1.)
Major alliances are already starting to rent out space in preparation for Dominion. ON TOP of the substantial costs to hold systems with the new Dominion mechanics. Yes, there are actually fools out there willing to PAY RENT on top of the system costs.
They are paying rent, and then they will be paying for their star systems on top of that (billions upon billions) just so they can see their name in the upper left corner of the screen. SO renters as usual, just like it has always been.
AND . . . thatÆs about all they get, just a name. They have just become a new term in EVE Online, one that is even worse then the term ôrenterö, they are a ôPoserö alliance. What they have achieved as a Poser alliance is a name in the upper left corner of the screen, and they get a mark on the map. However, they are going to be two steps from broke with all of those bills. They will have little to know ability to actually protect their space to any great degree, or say, not get WTF PWN stomped by their bored neighbors. (Remember to factor in the boredom factor of the neighboring alliances. It is quite epic.)
Option 2.)
An alternate deal you may find that is even more absurd. They will say: "You can hold sov in those couple of systems, but (And this is a BIG but) big brother will keep THEIR POSÆs on all of the most valuable moons in that constellation." So basically you will be holding sov for your big brother (and pay for those systems) just so they can continue to harvest the highest end moons in that area free of charge. Sound good to you??
Yes, this actually is happening. Have fun with your name in the upper left corner of your screen, because that all your really getting. Bend over again.
Option 3.)
You get a few systems at someoneÆs front door for free (lets say at the border of NPC space) of which hold little to no value. [or maybe right next door to their enemies] Sound good?
Well Mr. Meat shield, you will then be forced to spend billions and billions of ISK upgrading a high traffic, high pew pew system (so its actually is worth enough for you to pay for all those ôDominion Modulesö everyone is so crazy about) inside of a place where both pirates, and want-to-be PVP alliances love to fly into, and get their jollyÆs off. Your upgraded space then becomes prime time for every half-a**Æd and not so half-a**Æd PVPÆer in the region. All the while your miners and ratters are attempted to maintain a high sec rating, and make ISK running complexes.
Still sound like the gravy train to uberville?
My little group has been offered every single one of those options stated above over the last month and a half. We have declined every single one, but if we hadnÆt, we would be a ôSov holderö right now. (AKA the newest Poser alliance.)
Ex.) Ex.) Ex.) . . .
O.K. now post is concluded.
Take this for what you will . . . and ignore it at your own peril.
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Serizawa Kaho
Minmatar I.M.M
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:46:00 -
[20]
think about it this way if you do manage to claim a unclaimed system next to 1 of the major alliances out right now do you really think that major alliance who owns the system but don't have markers is going to let this small B rated alliance take sov with out there permission?
it don't matter how big or small a alliance is if they think they can take sov with no allies around a major alliance space they best be able to fund a all out war for that system cause they will be attacked liked crazy till they either contact a diplomat or leave.
Example if say A alliance went and claimed Sov next to B alliance who originally had that system pre patch, B alliance would then attack A alliance with there allies from C and D alliance till A alliance gave up or lost Sov
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Securitas Protector
Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2009.11.26 21:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 26/11/2009 15:28:32 I am pulling out o the leadership role of an alliance/coalition of substantial size, that has been geared towards claiming Sov in Dominion. The frustrations of running that mess, has compelled me to write this commentary.
Everyone thinks they have it all figured out (countless alliances and coalition leaders I mean). I have talked to so many I cant count anymore. They all think they have come up with a ôunique and original planö that will allow them to overthrow empires and claim sov for themselves. But the more people I talked to, the more I realized that everyoneÆs ôoriginal Ideaö is not so original after all, because what they fail to realize is that EVERYONE ELSE seems to have the exact same idea that they do.
And all of their ideas are based off mostly faulty information.
I have had the opportunity to look at Dominion from a uniquely informed prospective, so I suggest you take this thread with a bit more then a grain of salt if you are looking to become the next smudge on the sov map in a post Dominion universe.
Ok deep breath: Que wall of text (if you are 13 years old with A.D.D, don't read it with out taking your medication first.)
Moderation Discussion removed.
=======================================================================
Talking to the leaderships of a functioning null sec based alliance, is vastly different then talking to the leadership of that Empire/Low Sec based alliance that thinks they can now become a Sov holder (My favorite are those LOL Empire-only alliance that think that Cearbears can somehow cut it in Nullspace)
So here it is in a nutshell:
1.) R64 Moons are getting nerfed! YAY \0/
R64Æs will still be valuable enough post nerf, its not like they are being nerfed to 0 or something. AND the people who cheer for this are missing a very vital point: there WILL ALWAYS be very valuable moons (and moon combinations) in this game, and the big power blocks will STILL own them ALL with their massive capital ship blobs. I mean just look at what the IT alliance is doing in syndicate now (for example). You canÆt even claim sov in NPC space, and yet they are taking Pandemics moons.
So you see all those sweet, new, high end moon combinations, you still wont be getting them . . .
2.) Space will cost much more to hold! The big power blocks will die YAY \0/
So your saying that you have a clue about how much playing POS spamming sovereignty games costs right now? (The POSæs, the fuel, the weapons, logistics and capital ship Pew Pew?) If you donÆt, then you cannot factor in how all this ôBeing Charged For Spaceö but no longer being charged for ôPOS Spamming and Defenseö will effect the large power blocks. And you are sending your alliance on a fools errand, if you think that this mechanic is your ticket in into 0.0.
The big empires will still own the exact same amount of sov, just at varying sov levels. Not to mention they will have the power to fly into your little spot of heaven and destroy everything in sight like a swarm of locus flying capital ships (you must also factor in how bored people get in null sec) In short the power blocks will shrink a LITTLE, but they will still hold as much space as they want to hold. And there is nothing you can do about it.
Screw all of your excuses, I'm taking space. Proud to be shaych |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.11.26 22:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Serizawa Kaho think about it this way if you do manage to claim a unclaimed system next to 1 of the major alliances out right now do you really think that major alliance who owns the system but don't have markers is going to let this small B rated alliance take sov with out there permission?
Do you think the major alliances are going to want everyone around them ****ed off and screwing with them all the time? Now that it's easier to challenge their sov, they might find themselves doing nothing but repelling invaders 24/7 if they act like jerks to all their neighbors.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.26 23:45:00 -
[23]
Maybe I'm falling to an elaborate troll here, and my experience is limited, but....
Most pvp'ers are expected to be self-sufficient until it comes to cap-warfare (i.e. use lvl4 mission running alts). You have to start small and you can't expect to compete with the big boys right off the bat.
So don't get so hung up on moons and caps.
You should be building primarily a pvp outfit and miners, producers etc are entirely secondary, as pvp'ers are what will get you into and keep you in 0.0
What pvp'ers really want is the chance to just slot into an existing pvp operation and get on with the pew pew. You have to already have FC's and a number of those already going out and doing stuff to get the critical mass for your organisation to snowball
There's nothing wrong with starting as a renter or as 'meatshield'. If you're any good you'll quickly progress within the ranks of an alliance / coalition
Finally, you're quite right in that dominion is not 'the little guy' expansion. It should however provide more incentive for 0.0 alliances to parcel off some of their crappy space, so ambitious and up-and-coming corps and alliances have not had better opportunities for breaking into 0.0 for years
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.26 23:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 26/11/2009 22:32:37
Originally by: Serizawa Kaho think about it this way if you do manage to claim a unclaimed system next to 1 of the major alliances out right now do you really think that major alliance who owns the system but don't have markers is going to let this small B rated alliance take sov with out there permission?
Do you think the major alliances are going to want everyone around them ****ed off and screwing with them all the time? Now that it's easier to challenge their sov, they might find themselves doing nothing but repelling invaders 24/7 if they act like jerks to all their neighbors.
What the game is going to be allowing is guerrilla warfare, essentially. Having a big sov makes you an easy target for many smaller groups.
Remember that most 0.0 alliances aren't going to bother with more than basic sov, and you don't need to grind NPC's or mine all day for that. So the scope for guerilla warfare is limited
Whilst a system might be labelled as 'sov-less' many alliances will continue to project their power into the sphere of influence around their core systems. Where once they may have just claimed those sov-less systems, now they might simply deny others the claim and use and continue to use those systems as they did before
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:20:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 27/11/2009 00:25:43
Originally by: Spoon Thumb Remember that most 0.0 alliances aren't going to bother with more than basic sov, and you don't need to grind NPC's or mine all day for that. So the scope for guerilla warfare is limited
Whilst a system might be labelled as 'sov-less' many alliances will continue to project their power into the sphere of influence around their core systems. Where once they may have just claimed those sov-less systems, now they might simply deny others the claim and use and continue to use those systems as they did before
And on the other hand, pirates and neighboring Alliances might not care about the sov directly next to large alliances either, and instead just get their kicks challenging the sov of these large alliances at any one of dozens, if not hundreds, of systems they've already claimed. They can't possibly fight a war on dozens or hundreds of fronts at once, on a moments notice, and that's why guerrilla warfare works. Their largeness is a weakness, not a benefit.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
NEMESIS SIN
FURY.
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 27/11/2009 00:25:43
Originally by: Spoon Thumb Remember that most 0.0 alliances aren't going to bother with more than basic sov, and you don't need to grind NPC's or mine all day for that. So the scope for guerilla warfare is limited
Whilst a system might be labelled as 'sov-less' many alliances will continue to project their power into the sphere of influence around their core systems. Where once they may have just claimed those sov-less systems, now they might simply deny others the claim and use and continue to use those systems as they did before
And on the other hand, pirates and neighboring Alliances might not care about the sov directly next to large alliances either, and instead just get their kicks challenging the sov of these large alliances at any one of dozens, if not hundreds, of systems they've already claimed. They can't possibly fight a war on dozens or hundreds of fronts at once, on a moments notice, and that's why guerrilla warfare works. Their largeness is a weakness, not a benefit.
You are underestimating how bored these people are. They will love daily pew pew, in fact, they will welcome it with open arms.
So say you strip their sov for a day or so? What then? Its not like random towers are not going up, even now, from time to time, in unclaimed systems. They don't last very long either.
In the end, if its easier to take THEM down, you have to factor in that the door swings both ways. What you gain, you will not keep for very long. And they are sitting on lucrative space, you on the other hand, wont be. That alone is all the decisive advantage they will ever need to emerge victorious most of the time.
Im just saying, try and think it through logically . . . without the pipe dreams.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 27/11/2009 00:56:40
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN You are underestimating how bored these people are. They will love daily pew pew, in fact, they will welcome it with open arms.
So say you strip their sov for a day or so? What then? Its not like random towers are not going up, even now, from time to time, in unclaimed systems. They don't last very long either.
I just know how bored everyone is, and wrecking things is easier, and more fun to alot of people, than building things. If the corp/alliance has a lot of enemies, and undefended sov is easily taken away, it will be taken away often, and with great pleasure.
Quote: Im just saying, try and think it through logically . . . without the pipe dreams.
No pipe dreams, none of the emotions you seem to be caught up in, all logic, baby.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
NEMESIS SIN
FURY.
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Posted - 2009.11.27 01:04:00 -
[28]
Ok Mr. Logic, I guess you haven't heard of the NAP train then?
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Duncan Ophyr
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Posted - 2009.11.27 01:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
What the game is going to be allowing is guerrilla warfare, essentially. Having a big sov makes you an easy target for many smaller groups.
I honestly hope for this... just then I stop and ask myself "What is stoping these smaller groups for preying on that big (and as you say, weaker by that) target PRIOR to Dominion ?" And then I don't know.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.11.27 01:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN Ok Mr. Logic, I guess you haven't heard of the NAP train then?
Even the largest 'NAP train' they can possibly make will still leave plenty of systems for other players. Those alliances won't be able to hold anywhere near the sov they do now.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
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