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Avon	Posted - 2004.11.09 10:58:00 - [61] Edited by: Avon on 09/11/2004 11:00:45 Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Eris Discordia In short, i'm not entirely convinced that missiles are overpowered since there many ways to counter them and for instance a gankageddon does alot more damage in the same time. Load a Raven with nothing but Ballistic Controls in the lows, then do the comparison. I have no idea what the exact outcome would be, but I would bets it'd be fairly "close". Nope, the gankageddon kills the raven, and fast - unless the raven is dmwd'ing. Ships travelling faster than the missiles the launch should run into them, taking full damage - this is the only really unbalancing factor with missiles. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Avon	Posted - 2004.11.09 10:58:00 - [62] Edited by: Avon on 09/11/2004 11:00:45 Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Eris Discordia In short, i'm not entirely convinced that missiles are overpowered since there many ways to counter them and for instance a gankageddon does alot more damage in the same time. Load a Raven with nothing but Ballistic Controls in the lows, then do the comparison. I have no idea what the exact outcome would be, but I would bets it'd be fairly "close". Nope, the gankageddon kills the raven, and fast - unless the raven is dmwd'ing. Ships travelling faster than the missiles the launch should run into them, taking full damage - this is the only really unbalancing factor with missiles. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Henka	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:10:00 - [63] yeah.. right, lets just keep the missiles like they are now.. that is, totaly OWNING anyone and everthing. blasterhron VS Raven (with torps)... one DEAD mega. why? Raven just focus all cap to shields and he win, he dont need to worry about smartbomb or anything. While the mega need to have ALOT of cap going to the guns + his tanking.. Considering the raven will have next to 65-70% kin and ther resistances, while the mega will have like, 50% on his worse attrib (explosive or EM for shield). He can wary damage output at all, just pray his target run out of cap first. Price of missiles is nothing, well for NPC right but hay, caldari can use rails too you know.. In pvp all that mathers is GETTING YOUR OPONENT DEAD before you.. and tbh missiles do kick everythings ass atm. Wich sux.. I just got me a raven and 20 minutes of fitting i can own pretty much every other ship out there (dont say ECM, cuz i can fit ECCM). the mega is hard to fitt and takes ALOT of gut (and skills, more then a raven need) to be any good at all. thats it, end of story. Now nerf the missiles please so i se more then just scorps or ravens out there. (and those in other ships, that is apocs, is just there to tank not to deal damage). and btw, if you dont scramble your oponent any weapon is more or less useless cuz, i cant kill him in the time he aligns for warp with rails, blasters, projectiles or lasers.. Not to mention the poor cruisers out there, omg.. i deal 3k damage (not removing resistances) in just 1 salvo. thats enough to kill almost all cruisers out there, if not in 1 then two salvos.. while a rail user need to have shiload of luck or a webb to get him.
Henka	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:10:00 - [64] yeah.. right, lets just keep the missiles like they are now.. that is, totaly OWNING anyone and everthing. blasterhron VS Raven (with torps)... one DEAD mega. why? Raven just focus all cap to shields and he win, he dont need to worry about smartbomb or anything. While the mega need to have ALOT of cap going to the guns + his tanking.. Considering the raven will have next to 65-70% kin and ther resistances, while the mega will have like, 50% on his worse attrib (explosive or EM for shield). He can wary damage output at all, just pray his target run out of cap first. Price of missiles is nothing, well for NPC right but hay, caldari can use rails too you know.. In pvp all that mathers is GETTING YOUR OPONENT DEAD before you.. and tbh missiles do kick everythings ass atm. Wich sux.. I just got me a raven and 20 minutes of fitting i can own pretty much every other ship out there (dont say ECM, cuz i can fit ECCM). the mega is hard to fitt and takes ALOT of gut (and skills, more then a raven need) to be any good at all. thats it, end of story. Now nerf the missiles please so i se more then just scorps or ravens out there. (and those in other ships, that is apocs, is just there to tank not to deal damage). and btw, if you dont scramble your oponent any weapon is more or less useless cuz, i cant kill him in the time he aligns for warp with rails, blasters, projectiles or lasers.. Not to mention the poor cruisers out there, omg.. i deal 3k damage (not removing resistances) in just 1 salvo. thats enough to kill almost all cruisers out there, if not in 1 then two salvos.. while a rail user need to have shiload of luck or a webb to get him.
Avon	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:25:00 - [65] Edited by: Avon on 09/11/2004 11:27:49 Originally by: Henka while a rail user need to have shiload of luck or a webb to get him. Lets face it, missile users need a web to hit just about any other ship - no amount of luck will hit something going faster than their missiles. The blasterthron is a poor example against a raven because it plays right into the raven's hands. The downside with a raven is the amount of time it has to wait before it deals any damage. At 30km a gankageddon will have a raven in hull damage before the first torp hits, a blasterthron does not have that ability. Balance is not about all ships being equal. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Avon	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:25:00 - [66] Edited by: Avon on 09/11/2004 11:27:49 Originally by: Henka while a rail user need to have shiload of luck or a webb to get him. Lets face it, missile users need a web to hit just about any other ship - no amount of luck will hit something going faster than their missiles. The blasterthron is a poor example against a raven because it plays right into the raven's hands. The downside with a raven is the amount of time it has to wait before it deals any damage. At 30km a gankageddon will have a raven in hull damage before the first torp hits, a blasterthron does not have that ability. Balance is not about all ships being equal. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:39:00 - [67] Well, if you put "Arb" Sieges with 5 named Balistics, and have Cald BS lvl5 like me, your ROF isn't 13 seconds. It can be much lower. Which gives me a steady stream of cruise/torps. Which really pwns ppl quick. A good pack of Gankageddons puts up q nice volley as well. Their are many ways to defend against the Uber Raven. Not gonna post the secrets here. But it requires alot of wierd setups on unlikely ships. Just ask GSHC.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:39:00 - [68] Well, if you put "Arb" Sieges with 5 named Balistics, and have Cald BS lvl5 like me, your ROF isn't 13 seconds. It can be much lower. Which gives me a steady stream of cruise/torps. Which really pwns ppl quick. A good pack of Gankageddons puts up q nice volley as well. Their are many ways to defend against the Uber Raven. Not gonna post the secrets here. But it requires alot of wierd setups on unlikely ships. Just ask GSHC.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:40:00 - [69] BTW I would rather meet up with a Raven at a gate gank anyday of the week than a Geddon.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:40:00 - [70] BTW I would rather meet up with a Raven at a gate gank anyday of the week than a Geddon.
istasi	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:44:00 - [71] Im just thinking which i would be most afraid off when im orbitting either a raven or a armageddon with 4km/s ... well i think i would be most afraid of the armageddon ... perhaps his guns dont hit very often ... but they hits or atleast have a chance for it ... while the raven only can spam out missiles and prey to god that ill run out of cap (no im not talking about a ceptor which will die the second it smells a large nosf) As Eris have told ... sure the missiles are great and all ... just not towards everything ... what they are quite good at it hitting not moving targets ... and that's about it (going below 1500m/s is just to avoid drones, or well .. heavy drones atleast, you're not really moving anywhere) Missiles isn't advanced in anyway at all ... it can go at one constant speed, it can turn and it can blow ... so many other things can go wrong (defenders, smartbomb, drones being in the way (no they dont blow, but they can only move for a certain time and everything is helpfull), roids being in the way ( -- Same goes here -- ). and i dont mind my signatur being 1000000 when fighting a raven (with missiles) ... as long i go faster than its missiles ... or well ... you get my point :P Its just what most of you guys out there only thinks that the only way is to tank the damage (yeah well, right i would sure as hell look if a BS's started to orbit my ship with 4km/s oO) ... and if you cant tank the damage .. its not fair ... what if another BS isn't the best way to kill a raven ? .. does it make the other BS's useless ? .. i dont think this game sucks any more or less just cause its very hard for a single person to kill a raven ... afterall they are cald. ships .. and as far i know they are made for pvp .. dont blame the missiles, its just like the caracal, surely it can do alot of damage ... if it hits just a thought .. any of you out there tried to fit 2 rocket launchers with defenders ? .. those defenders sure would help ... i guess .. and the fire rate on those rocket launchers .. is pretty fast .. though you need to reload it quite often, but i guess the 10-20 torp's they can make go away wont help that much and another of you said ... but they dont help at close range .. i bet the raven pilot would look at you if you opened 8 x neutron blaster's 1k from him ... so as eris said .. its all about the setup.. dont blame the ship or the missiles ------------------------------ My doctor have tried to tell me serveral times that eve isn't the real world... Poor dude, and people say i need to see a doctor ?
istasi	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:44:00 - [72] Im just thinking which i would be most afraid off when im orbitting either a raven or a armageddon with 4km/s ... well i think i would be most afraid of the armageddon ... perhaps his guns dont hit very often ... but they hits or atleast have a chance for it ... while the raven only can spam out missiles and prey to god that ill run out of cap (no im not talking about a ceptor which will die the second it smells a large nosf) As Eris have told ... sure the missiles are great and all ... just not towards everything ... what they are quite good at it hitting not moving targets ... and that's about it (going below 1500m/s is just to avoid drones, or well .. heavy drones atleast, you're not really moving anywhere) Missiles isn't advanced in anyway at all ... it can go at one constant speed, it can turn and it can blow ... so many other things can go wrong (defenders, smartbomb, drones being in the way (no they dont blow, but they can only move for a certain time and everything is helpfull), roids being in the way ( -- Same goes here -- ). and i dont mind my signatur being 1000000 when fighting a raven (with missiles) ... as long i go faster than its missiles ... or well ... you get my point :P Its just what most of you guys out there only thinks that the only way is to tank the damage (yeah well, right i would sure as hell look if a BS's started to orbit my ship with 4km/s oO) ... and if you cant tank the damage .. its not fair ... what if another BS isn't the best way to kill a raven ? .. does it make the other BS's useless ? .. i dont think this game sucks any more or less just cause its very hard for a single person to kill a raven ... afterall they are cald. ships .. and as far i know they are made for pvp .. dont blame the missiles, its just like the caracal, surely it can do alot of damage ... if it hits just a thought .. any of you out there tried to fit 2 rocket launchers with defenders ? .. those defenders sure would help ... i guess .. and the fire rate on those rocket launchers .. is pretty fast .. though you need to reload it quite often, but i guess the 10-20 torp's they can make go away wont help that much and another of you said ... but they dont help at close range .. i bet the raven pilot would look at you if you opened 8 x neutron blaster's 1k from him ... so as eris said .. its all about the setup.. dont blame the ship or the missiles ------------------------------ My doctor have tried to tell me serveral times that eve isn't the real world... Poor dude, and people say i need to see a doctor ?
striader	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:46:00 - [73] I truthfully think missles been nerfed enough in the past and dont need to be more,i mean heck wit the launch times and flight times of missles now by the time the first torp hits i could tear a raven apart wit my apoc,missles take forever to reach there target unless upclose and webbed,so when it comes to nerfing em ide say no
striader	Posted - 2004.11.09 11:46:00 - [74] I truthfully think missles been nerfed enough in the past and dont need to be more,i mean heck wit the launch times and flight times of missles now by the time the first torp hits i could tear a raven apart wit my apoc,missles take forever to reach there target unless upclose and webbed,so when it comes to nerfing em ide say no
OffBeaT	Posted - 2004.11.09 13:10:00 - [75] yea, if they nerf the missiles anymore im gona be gone myself.. the apocs and arma's are the top ships now anyway not the raven.. if there gona nerf the missiles they dame well better nerf the drones. already its a death trap too fight in a moa or caracal agaist a thorax.. Caldari ships are just getting picked on too much in this game these days and nerfed. some of us play the game by only playing our races ships. the raven is one of the hardest ships too skill up. iv been working months skilling this ship too where i wont it, an i still have a ways too go with it. it cost me way too much isk now too fly one and rat. missiles dont need too be nerfed anymore.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2004.11.09 13:10:00 - [76] yea, if they nerf the missiles anymore im gona be gone myself.. the apocs and arma's are the top ships now anyway not the raven.. if there gona nerf the missiles they dame well better nerf the drones. already its a death trap too fight in a moa or caracal agaist a thorax.. Caldari ships are just getting picked on too much in this game these days and nerfed. some of us play the game by only playing our races ships. the raven is one of the hardest ships too skill up. iv been working months skilling this ship too where i wont it, an i still have a ways too go with it. it cost me way too much isk now too fly one and rat. missiles dont need too be nerfed anymore.
mahhy	Posted - 2004.11.09 13:15:00 - [77] Originally by: Eris Discordia Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Eris Discordia In short, i'm not entirely convinced that missiles are overpowered since there many ways to counter them and for instance a gankageddon does alot more damage in the same time. Load a Raven with nothing but Ballistic Controls in the lows, then do the comparison. I have no idea what the exact outcome would be, but I would bets it'd be fairly "close". Cap? Then you would need to fill your med slots with cap rechargers and I dont know many raven or scorpion users who would concider such a thing. Erm? What? A Gank'a'geddon suffers cap issues as well, so I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to point out?
mahhy	Posted - 2004.11.09 13:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Eris Discordia Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Eris Discordia In short, i'm not entirely convinced that missiles are overpowered since there many ways to counter them and for instance a gankageddon does alot more damage in the same time. Load a Raven with nothing but Ballistic Controls in the lows, then do the comparison. I have no idea what the exact outcome would be, but I would bets it'd be fairly "close". Cap? Then you would need to fill your med slots with cap rechargers and I dont know many raven or scorpion users who would concider such a thing. Erm? What? A Gank'a'geddon suffers cap issues as well, so I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to point out?
Ricdic	Posted - 2004.11.09 13:59:00 - [79] Come off it man. how the hell are missiles so great? Sure we get good hits etc. But we have to put up with a refire of at least 12 seconds (with 100mil worth of siege launchers and 5 ballistic control mods) . Normal for a standard siege launcher is somethin like 24 seconds. Now a raven can only fit 6 launchers. ok , now look at say an apoc. 7 lasers firing every 3 seconds doing roughly the same damage as a cruise missile. Do the math and come back when you have a serious argument. Us caldari will all be flying damn apocs and gankgeddons, coz CCP is too busy nerfing the sh1t that aint broke. What a load of BS
Ricdic	Posted - 2004.11.09 13:59:00 - [80] Come off it man. how the hell are missiles so great? Sure we get good hits etc. But we have to put up with a refire of at least 12 seconds (with 100mil worth of siege launchers and 5 ballistic control mods) . Normal for a standard siege launcher is somethin like 24 seconds. Now a raven can only fit 6 launchers. ok , now look at say an apoc. 7 lasers firing every 3 seconds doing roughly the same damage as a cruise missile. Do the math and come back when you have a serious argument. Us caldari will all be flying damn apocs and gankgeddons, coz CCP is too busy nerfing the sh1t that aint broke. What a load of BS
Hans Roaming	Posted - 2004.11.09 14:32:00 - [81] Originally by: istasi just a thought .. any of you out there tried to fit 2 rocket launchers with defenders ? .. those defenders sure would help ... i guess .. and the fire rate on those rocket launchers .. is pretty fast .. though you need to reload it quite often, but i guess the 10-20 torp's they can make go away wont help that much I had a corp m8 try to hit my blackbird in his scorp using torps and my one defender firing rocket lancher kept them at bay. WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa. WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK
Hans Roaming	Posted - 2004.11.09 14:32:00 - [82] Originally by: istasi just a thought .. any of you out there tried to fit 2 rocket launchers with defenders ? .. those defenders sure would help ... i guess .. and the fire rate on those rocket launchers .. is pretty fast .. though you need to reload it quite often, but i guess the 10-20 torp's they can make go away wont help that much I had a corp m8 try to hit my blackbird in his scorp using torps and my one defender firing rocket lancher kept them at bay. WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa. WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK
OffBeaT	Posted - 2004.11.09 14:54:00 - [83] Do the math and come back when you have a serious argument. Us caldari will all be flying damn apocs and gankgeddons, coz CCP is too busy nerfing the sh1t that aint broke. What a load of BS man, you are so right! i saw what a fleet of them ships did too ravens and scorps. tor them too crap. if anything gota be nerfed its thouse ships..
OffBeaT	Posted - 2004.11.09 14:54:00 - [84] Do the math and come back when you have a serious argument. Us caldari will all be flying damn apocs and gankgeddons, coz CCP is too busy nerfing the sh1t that aint broke. What a load of BS man, you are so right! i saw what a fleet of them ships did too ravens and scorps. tor them too crap. if anything gota be nerfed its thouse ships..
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2004.11.09 18:35:00 - [85] Edited by: Grim Vandal on 09/11/2004 18:38:52 First of all missiles will get a DECENT SPEED BOOST! OK lets see, we have a cruise missile flying at 3000 m/s base speed around... what happens??? hmmmmm.... tell me what happens!? uhm ya you seem to get it ... they will be overpowered... suprise suprise... so what needs to be done? we need more speed for them ... so missiles get a dmg calculation .... and exactly this dmg calculation should be the subject to discuss... should it be speed based or should it be sig radius based or should it involve both speed and sig radius... thats the real question you guys should ask yourself cuz there is no other way around it .... WE CAN NOT HAVE IT SO MISSILES WILL EVER ACTUALLY MISS THEIR TARGET BUT (a HUGE BUT that is) we can change their agility.... in a way so a fast cruise missile like above will first of all have troubles to catch an interceptor due to the bad agility but it will easily hit a cruiser ..... so in order to give eg. a pretty slow cruiser (200 m/s) a chance to recive less dmg from large missiles like the cruise missile, eg. the cruiser pilot will have the chance to get hit from behind by the cruise missile and exaclty this will lead to less dmg while on the other hand a hit head on will result in full dmg no matter your sig radius and or your current speed... eg. a interceptor will be fast enough to outrun a cruise missile even tho the cruise missile has a pretty high speed... however if the cruise missile hits head on the interceptor will recive the full dmg ... but even more if the interceptor gets chased and hit from behind he will recive less dmg... but anyway an interceptor will most likly be fast enough to outrun these large missiles. a cruiser 200m/s approaches a raven which shoots a cruise missile... the cruiser recives full dmg from the cruise missile = hit head on same cruiser approaching the same raven at an angle of about 30¦ the cruise missile will turn around and chase and hit the cruiser from behind in this case the cruiser will recive less dmg... you see the missile will turn around and exactly this is the reason for the dmg reduction calcultion IF the missile hits from behind... so again... small missiles like the standard missile will have superiour speed and agility so even an interceptor will NOT be able to outrun these standard missiles however in most cases this interceptor will recive less dmg since even the light missile will hit the interceptor from behind (chasing) therefor the interceptor gets less dmg from the missile... however a cruise missile while it would be fast enough will NOT have the agility to catch an interceptor therefor that interceptor will outrun the cruise missile... so we have the following situations: missile gets outrun = no dmg of course missile hits head on = full dmg missile chases the foe and hits from behind = reduced dmg missiles get a superiour speed boost making them way more effective at long range missiles agility will vary so a cruise missile will struggle to hit an interceptor while a standard missile will have not problems to hit at least the interceptor from behind... large missiles like the torp/cruise missile may even need time to reach their maximum speed therefor they could do less dmg at very close ranges like <5 km thats it... enjoy Greetings Grim
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2004.11.09 18:35:00 - [86] Edited by: Grim Vandal on 09/11/2004 18:38:52 First of all missiles will get a DECENT SPEED BOOST! OK lets see, we have a cruise missile flying at 3000 m/s base speed around... what happens??? hmmmmm.... tell me what happens!? uhm ya you seem to get it ... they will be overpowered... suprise suprise... so what needs to be done? we need more speed for them ... so missiles get a dmg calculation .... and exactly this dmg calculation should be the subject to discuss... should it be speed based or should it be sig radius based or should it involve both speed and sig radius... thats the real question you guys should ask yourself cuz there is no other way around it .... WE CAN NOT HAVE IT SO MISSILES WILL EVER ACTUALLY MISS THEIR TARGET BUT (a HUGE BUT that is) we can change their agility.... in a way so a fast cruise missile like above will first of all have troubles to catch an interceptor due to the bad agility but it will easily hit a cruiser ..... so in order to give eg. a pretty slow cruiser (200 m/s) a chance to recive less dmg from large missiles like the cruise missile, eg. the cruiser pilot will have the chance to get hit from behind by the cruise missile and exaclty this will lead to less dmg while on the other hand a hit head on will result in full dmg no matter your sig radius and or your current speed... eg. a interceptor will be fast enough to outrun a cruise missile even tho the cruise missile has a pretty high speed... however if the cruise missile hits head on the interceptor will recive the full dmg ... but even more if the interceptor gets chased and hit from behind he will recive less dmg... but anyway an interceptor will most likly be fast enough to outrun these large missiles. a cruiser 200m/s approaches a raven which shoots a cruise missile... the cruiser recives full dmg from the cruise missile = hit head on same cruiser approaching the same raven at an angle of about 30¦ the cruise missile will turn around and chase and hit the cruiser from behind in this case the cruiser will recive less dmg... you see the missile will turn around and exactly this is the reason for the dmg reduction calcultion IF the missile hits from behind... so again... small missiles like the standard missile will have superiour speed and agility so even an interceptor will NOT be able to outrun these standard missiles however in most cases this interceptor will recive less dmg since even the light missile will hit the interceptor from behind (chasing) therefor the interceptor gets less dmg from the missile... however a cruise missile while it would be fast enough will NOT have the agility to catch an interceptor therefor that interceptor will outrun the cruise missile... so we have the following situations: missile gets outrun = no dmg of course missile hits head on = full dmg missile chases the foe and hits from behind = reduced dmg missiles get a superiour speed boost making them way more effective at long range missiles agility will vary so a cruise missile will struggle to hit an interceptor while a standard missile will have not problems to hit at least the interceptor from behind... large missiles like the torp/cruise missile may even need time to reach their maximum speed therefor they could do less dmg at very close ranges like <5 km thats it... enjoy Greetings Grim
Papolytic	Posted - 2004.11.09 19:09:00 - [87] Move this trash over to ships & modules along with the rest of the demented caca there. -- After all: We need room for Daniel Jackson's "Gimme money" quality posts that normally would be in this spot. Papol
Papolytic	Posted - 2004.11.09 19:09:00 - [88] Move this trash over to ships & modules along with the rest of the demented caca there. -- After all: We need room for Daniel Jackson's "Gimme money" quality posts that normally would be in this spot. Papol
Servo	Posted - 2004.11.09 20:07:00 - [89] Yes, by all means, let's ruin the LAST WEAPON THAT ACTUALLY WORKS. Quit ruining the game for the rest of us because you like to whine.
Servo	Posted - 2004.11.09 20:07:00 - [90] Yes, by all means, let's ruin the LAST WEAPON THAT ACTUALLY WORKS. Quit ruining the game for the rest of us because you like to whine.

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