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Eveloution
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Posted - 2009.11.29 14:45:00 -
[1]
Skills
òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.29 14:47:00 -
[2]
Has happened before, will happen again. Get over it.
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.11.29 14:48:00 -
[3]
Its called reducing skills on professions that had some fairly not nice skill reqs in the first place, i for 1 approve and look forward to grabbing that thermodynamics skill for the first time :P Rally Against Evil Site |
SolidHadden
Minmatar Sphere Industries Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.29 14:49:00 -
[4]
this is almost as sweet as dropping prices for epic mounts!
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.29 14:55:00 -
[5]
Giving new players something to do besides doing missions isn't dumbing the game down – it's smarting the newbies up. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Jinayne
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Posted - 2009.11.29 14:58:00 -
[6]
At least in EvE you still get the full benefit of learning those skills to V, and gain more when you use them as compared to those who just got the minimal reqs... in WoW you would get the full benefit of the mount for less cost.
It seems that there isnt a huge pool of players that have taken to those professions and CCP want to encourage more new players to try those areas.
... currently most new players seem to have a choice of Mine or Mission running.
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Doomed Predator
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:09:00 -
[7]
3/4 of those skills which had their prerequisite level lowered are a must to train to lvl 5 anyway. Quit *****ing. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:11:00 -
[8]
How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work. |
Eveloution
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Khemul Zula How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3 --
Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have !
Some of us older players do remember our first cruiser--the first time we used T2 mods or T2 guns - and the first time we lost said cruiser it hurt our wallet and our ego's We had to earn the right to use these things with time-and time is what keeps this game exciting
From my perspective giving people things with less requirments justs makes the game boring. (nothing left to train for)
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Alaura Aquila
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:50:00 -
[10]
Make way for the new kids in town, Noob Swarm!
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Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Eveloution This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3
no sov, no titan :P
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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 29/11/2009 15:56:00
Originally by: Eveloution Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have!
Speak for yourself.
Besides, I will once again reiterate my comment on this matter:
Lowering of skill requirements to make current mid-level content into low-level content means that there is more room for new mid- and high-level content.
Lowered requirements for cloaking and exploration means that the new stealth and exploration features can be introduced without CCP having to add another layer of skills - and it means that when they introduce that stuff the people who spent months to train those old skills have access to the new content right away. -----
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Myrkala
Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Eveloution
Originally by: Khemul Zula How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3 --
Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have !
Some of us older players do remember our first cruiser--the first time we used T2 mods or T2 guns - and the first time we lost said cruiser it hurt our wallet and our ego's We had to earn the right to use these things with time-and time is what keeps this game exciting
From my perspective giving people things with less requirments justs makes the game boring. (nothing left to train for)
Oh, right it's not like they have to grind at all just because they don't have to wait 2 weeks to even begin grinding in another fashion...
If you think about it, noobs receiving isk from older players... REALLY is dumbing it down. Because they didn't work for it and have no notion of value connected to it.
The only thing I'm slightly against is the prereqs for cloaking and thermodynamics, but that just because it will be so much easier to get yourself a cloaking/ganking alt, not related to new players at all.
One thing that is considered mandatory for traveling around 0.0 and living there is being able to use a cloak (and mwd, also lowered), by lowering the time be able to cloak... e.g. making it a smaller piece of the cake, the noob has more time to train for core skills and learning skills which everyone around him tells him to train anyways.
And no don't tell me noobs shouldn't be out in 0.0. If they are smart enough and HTFU enough they will get on just fine, it'll also teach them that losing ships happens and really isn't a big problem you can always grind/beg for/build another one.
CCP also wants exploration to be one of the starter professions since it is something a lot of people think about when the come across a space game, "oh wow, i want to explore".
So, no. Not dumbing down in my book, only bitter and old players say that. Dumbing down would be like removing some minerals and only using two. While the skill reqs. would drop the in-game mechanics themselves are being changed, with this current they are not. -
NO SPLIT WEAPON BONUSES ON THE NAGLFAR PLEASE! |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:02:00 -
[14]
Its just stupid. Expecially thermodynamics and cloaking.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Eveloution Personally I can care less...
Always a good statement to include in a post when you've made a thread on the subject.
You still haven't explained how it is 'dumbing down' the game.
Simply reducing the time required to use the skill is not 'dumbing down'. It is 'reducing the time required to use the skill'. Big difference (2 words vs. 7 words, probably could do with an acronym).
Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:21:00 -
[16]
You know something?
Skill levels don't make Eve complex - there is nothing difficult about following a skill tree to a chosen profession so "dumbing down" is a daft statement regarding skill changes.
What I'd like to know though is if this is a concious effort by CCP to make more "rounded" characters more viable and reduce the necessity for alts (for production/hauling/etc etc)...
I guess it might make useful alts more easy to obtain though - we'll see.
In any case, Eve is as complex as ever, and probably still completely bewildering to new players despite multiple new "new player experience" additions.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Khemul Zula You still haven't explained how it is 'dumbing down' the game.
Simply reducing the time required to use the skill is not 'dumbing down'. It is 'reducing the time required to use the skill'. Big difference (2 words vs. 7 words, probably could do with an acronym).
T2 requirements appear to be the same. Ship requirements the same. Just a reduction in time to train for some module/support skills.
Well.. I already posted 3 times in the other thread on test-server forums. But again for anyone to read:
The statement from CCP for this is: Reducing skilltime is good, as you already need 'RL'-skill/knowledge to use the things.
My answer and question then is simple: Why do we have skills already? Why do we need to wait for BS 5 a month, for a Marauder 5 months and for Titan a year? For what do we need skills at all? Look at Sisi during all-lvl5-for-some-time events..
My point of view so far: Cause we make decisions when we choose Survey 5 over Medium Blaster Specialization 5. Decisions with consequences. Consequences that cause my char to be different from others. Differences cause diversity. Diversity is good, cause people need to work together and we don't get SOLO-chars.
I'm just on a 'crusade' for the exploration skills here.. CCP introduced it as mini-profession. Making scanning easier, making less signatures in the new system and now dumbing down the entry level for hacking/analyzing is killing that mini-profession and makes it an everybody-has-it.. That's not a mini-profession anymore.
CCP never answered on that.
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Vysnaite
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:51:00 -
[18]
So? New players (or people who take new direction with same toon) get stuff more early. At some point its recommended(or required) to get most of the mentioned skills to V anyway.
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Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:58:00 -
[19]
Ok, lets clarify something: "dumbing down" is not a catch-all term you can just use to describe any change you disagree with. Seriously, it has very specific connotations.
Dumbing down would be SWG ditching the complex crafting system they had in place originally so that player skill and putting the effort into gathering all the best materials was no longer relevant. Whole swaths of player planning and interaction disappeared along with uniqueness of produced goods.
Lowering the access requirements to something, but not making that something easier to actually use effectively is NOT dumbing down. Sure, you may have quibbles with this potentially removing barriers and reducing character variation overall, but that's a different argument.
Even further, the skill barriers being lowered still have value in themselves. It is still worthwhile to most of those skills to 4 or 5 as that training itself incurs some benefit. The variation isn't actually lost. If anything, it's increased as players will not be forced to train those skills to 5 simply to gain access to something else. Rather than decreasing variation, it will increase it. Going to 5 will be a personal choice rather than a requirement.
That said, for CCP to do this across the board (eg the hyperbolic lowering titans to requiring frig 3) would kill the key game appeal of long-term goals and planning. HOWEVER, the skills being lowered don't really fit into that class of skill as it's all stuff that is considered 'common usage.' And besides, slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy and for the most part, a non-starter.
Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with all of the changes, nor am I concerning myself with the impact of easy-access scout alts. Those are completely seperate arguments from whether or not the game is being "dumbed down" by the changes.
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shwarzkauph
bullets with butterfly wings
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:08:00 -
[20]
Ive been playing since the first month of the game. I demand some compensation for having to train skills I didn't have to. A couple skills of my choice to five will suffice. u lose |
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Jimmi Bones
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:17:00 -
[21]
Confirming replacing bad game mechanics equals dumbing down the game.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:20:00 -
[22]
That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tres Farmer I'm just on a 'crusade' for the exploration skills here.. CCP introduced it as mini-profession. Making scanning easier, making less signatures in the new system and now dumbing down the entry level for hacking/analyzing is killing that mini-profession and makes it an everybody-has-it.. That's not a mini-profession anymore.
CCP never answered on that.
Yeah… that's not "dumbing down" things – that's just lowering the barrier of entry. Dumbing it down would have been to remove the need for the modules to begin with – find the site and all the cans will be ready to open. It could be argued that the scanning mechanics change dumbed things down, if it weren't for the fact that scanning now requires some kind of user input besides "dump probes, press button, make tea".
The answer is very simple: look at what they planned for 0.0. The stated (but missed) goal of Dominion was to get more people into nullsec. Cloaks have been shown to be pretty much essential for that kind of life. They wanted to make it more open to new players. Changing the navigation and weapon skills give new players easier access to the kinds of equipment you'd want a new player to have (you know the old idea of putting them on tackling duty?). They wanted to replace the static, passive nullsec alliance-level income sources with personal sources which all need to be scanned down, so to make that work, scanning needs to be made more easily available.
Check every skill change on that list against what they're doing with the sov and upgrade systems, and the answer is clear as day. Just too bad that the former two fall well short of the goal… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Eveloution Skills
•Hacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) •Archaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
•Salvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
•Cloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
•High Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) •Tactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
•Trajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
•Bomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
•Mining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
•Thermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
The only dumb guy here is you.
Reducing skill req har absolutly nothing to do with dumbing down EVE. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
CavoFury1
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:33:00 -
[25]
Simple.
Look at eve in it's first year. Number of skills, ships, professions.
Look at eve in it's second year. Number of skills, ships, professions.
Look at eve in it's third year. Number of skills, ships, professions.
Fourth year.
Fifth year..
6th Year...
Projected 7th year...
TRUST me.
Individual areas may be simplified, but the game overall gains in complexity each year as new ships, weapons, ammo, ships, BPO's, professions, mechanics, are added.
What they are doing is NORMALIZING. Meaning they are setting skills up for standard progression levels across the board, instead of having some require lvl 4's where as similar skills require level 3's and so on.
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harogen
Techno Vikings
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Eveloution Skills
òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
I have read all these threads about this and still don't really see why it matters even in the slightest. ---------------------------------------- ohai! :D |
Ronha Ottrit
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:54:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ronha Ottrit on 29/11/2009 17:55:35
Originally by: PeHD0M That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
So because you can DO the profession faster = Removing the profession?
Just because I CAN probe doesn't mean I spend my whole day doing so... And more stuff to do at a earlier point = better overall gaming experience for people who don't have 7 years of SP under their belt.
If you do a college course and take excellerated learning does that mean the profession becomes trivial and you can't make money doing it anymore? Just because I can be a accountant faster then I can be a lwayer doesn't mean nobody will be a lwayer or everyone will be an accountant.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
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Posted - 2009.11.29 18:06:00 -
[28]
How is reducing a few skill pre reqs dumbing down? its not like *right click train skill* and wait X amount of time requires any level of intelligence or gaming skill.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.11.29 18:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: PeHD0M That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
Yes because a 2 day old character is going to be in ur nullsec exploration sites and wormholes sappin ur profits.
All this change will do is make the completely unused highsec and lowsec exploration sites an option because before noone would arse themselves to train up any exploration skills before they could use a ship to make the big iskies off the high end sites. Now a new player that wants to be an explorer can actually do it without having to wait for a month or so of training to finish.
Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.11.29 18:16:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Psiri on 29/11/2009 18:15:55
Quote: òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2)
òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
Either way you look at it it's not many days difference and don't make any single bit of difference in the long run.
Quote: òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
Who cares? It's only salvaging.
Quote: òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
Electronics is a must have skill anyway.
Quote: òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4)
Who cares? It makes no difference.
Quote: òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
Like what, 4 days? It's a skill that you'll want at IV anyway.
Quote: òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
You need gunnery V anyway.
Quote: òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
Good change, stealth bombers should be less SP intensive.
Quote: òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
Once again, makes no difference.
Quote: òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Ok, big change here but it's a good one. Overheating is a massive advantage and quite frankly I don't see why new players should need to train energy Managament V for it. It already takes 6-8 months just to be good i a T2 fitted cruiser (with +3 implants, no crosstraining and a good skillplan). Older players will have maxed capacitor skills anyway.
Quote: Discuss
You suck and this have nothing to do with EVE being "dumbed down" either.
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