Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Eveloution
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 14:45:00 -
[1]
Skills
òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 14:47:00 -
[2]
Has happened before, will happen again. Get over it.
|
Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 14:48:00 -
[3]
Its called reducing skills on professions that had some fairly not nice skill reqs in the first place, i for 1 approve and look forward to grabbing that thermodynamics skill for the first time :P Rally Against Evil Site |
SolidHadden
Minmatar Sphere Industries Whiskey Creek Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 14:49:00 -
[4]
this is almost as sweet as dropping prices for epic mounts!
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 14:55:00 -
[5]
Giving new players something to do besides doing missions isn't dumbing the game down – it's smarting the newbies up. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Jinayne
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 14:58:00 -
[6]
At least in EvE you still get the full benefit of learning those skills to V, and gain more when you use them as compared to those who just got the minimal reqs... in WoW you would get the full benefit of the mount for less cost.
It seems that there isnt a huge pool of players that have taken to those professions and CCP want to encourage more new players to try those areas.
... currently most new players seem to have a choice of Mine or Mission running.
|
Doomed Predator
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:09:00 -
[7]
3/4 of those skills which had their prerequisite level lowered are a must to train to lvl 5 anyway. Quit *****ing. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:11:00 -
[8]
How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work. |
Eveloution
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Khemul Zula How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3 --
Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have !
Some of us older players do remember our first cruiser--the first time we used T2 mods or T2 guns - and the first time we lost said cruiser it hurt our wallet and our ego's We had to earn the right to use these things with time-and time is what keeps this game exciting
From my perspective giving people things with less requirments justs makes the game boring. (nothing left to train for)
|
Alaura Aquila
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:50:00 -
[10]
Make way for the new kids in town, Noob Swarm!
|
|
Some Advisor
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Eveloution This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3
no sov, no titan :P
|
Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 29/11/2009 15:56:00
Originally by: Eveloution Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have!
Speak for yourself.
Besides, I will once again reiterate my comment on this matter:
Lowering of skill requirements to make current mid-level content into low-level content means that there is more room for new mid- and high-level content.
Lowered requirements for cloaking and exploration means that the new stealth and exploration features can be introduced without CCP having to add another layer of skills - and it means that when they introduce that stuff the people who spent months to train those old skills have access to the new content right away. -----
|
Myrkala
Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 15:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Eveloution
Originally by: Khemul Zula How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3 --
Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have !
Some of us older players do remember our first cruiser--the first time we used T2 mods or T2 guns - and the first time we lost said cruiser it hurt our wallet and our ego's We had to earn the right to use these things with time-and time is what keeps this game exciting
From my perspective giving people things with less requirments justs makes the game boring. (nothing left to train for)
Oh, right it's not like they have to grind at all just because they don't have to wait 2 weeks to even begin grinding in another fashion...
If you think about it, noobs receiving isk from older players... REALLY is dumbing it down. Because they didn't work for it and have no notion of value connected to it.
The only thing I'm slightly against is the prereqs for cloaking and thermodynamics, but that just because it will be so much easier to get yourself a cloaking/ganking alt, not related to new players at all.
One thing that is considered mandatory for traveling around 0.0 and living there is being able to use a cloak (and mwd, also lowered), by lowering the time be able to cloak... e.g. making it a smaller piece of the cake, the noob has more time to train for core skills and learning skills which everyone around him tells him to train anyways.
And no don't tell me noobs shouldn't be out in 0.0. If they are smart enough and HTFU enough they will get on just fine, it'll also teach them that losing ships happens and really isn't a big problem you can always grind/beg for/build another one.
CCP also wants exploration to be one of the starter professions since it is something a lot of people think about when the come across a space game, "oh wow, i want to explore".
So, no. Not dumbing down in my book, only bitter and old players say that. Dumbing down would be like removing some minerals and only using two. While the skill reqs. would drop the in-game mechanics themselves are being changed, with this current they are not. -
NO SPLIT WEAPON BONUSES ON THE NAGLFAR PLEASE! |
JitaPriceChecker2
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:02:00 -
[14]
Its just stupid. Expecially thermodynamics and cloaking.
|
Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Eveloution Personally I can care less...
Always a good statement to include in a post when you've made a thread on the subject.
You still haven't explained how it is 'dumbing down' the game.
Simply reducing the time required to use the skill is not 'dumbing down'. It is 'reducing the time required to use the skill'. Big difference (2 words vs. 7 words, probably could do with an acronym).
Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:21:00 -
[16]
You know something?
Skill levels don't make Eve complex - there is nothing difficult about following a skill tree to a chosen profession so "dumbing down" is a daft statement regarding skill changes.
What I'd like to know though is if this is a concious effort by CCP to make more "rounded" characters more viable and reduce the necessity for alts (for production/hauling/etc etc)...
I guess it might make useful alts more easy to obtain though - we'll see.
In any case, Eve is as complex as ever, and probably still completely bewildering to new players despite multiple new "new player experience" additions.
|
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Khemul Zula You still haven't explained how it is 'dumbing down' the game.
Simply reducing the time required to use the skill is not 'dumbing down'. It is 'reducing the time required to use the skill'. Big difference (2 words vs. 7 words, probably could do with an acronym).
T2 requirements appear to be the same. Ship requirements the same. Just a reduction in time to train for some module/support skills.
Well.. I already posted 3 times in the other thread on test-server forums. But again for anyone to read:
The statement from CCP for this is: Reducing skilltime is good, as you already need 'RL'-skill/knowledge to use the things.
My answer and question then is simple: Why do we have skills already? Why do we need to wait for BS 5 a month, for a Marauder 5 months and for Titan a year? For what do we need skills at all? Look at Sisi during all-lvl5-for-some-time events..
My point of view so far: Cause we make decisions when we choose Survey 5 over Medium Blaster Specialization 5. Decisions with consequences. Consequences that cause my char to be different from others. Differences cause diversity. Diversity is good, cause people need to work together and we don't get SOLO-chars.
I'm just on a 'crusade' for the exploration skills here.. CCP introduced it as mini-profession. Making scanning easier, making less signatures in the new system and now dumbing down the entry level for hacking/analyzing is killing that mini-profession and makes it an everybody-has-it.. That's not a mini-profession anymore.
CCP never answered on that.
|
Vysnaite
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:51:00 -
[18]
So? New players (or people who take new direction with same toon) get stuff more early. At some point its recommended(or required) to get most of the mentioned skills to V anyway.
|
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 16:58:00 -
[19]
Ok, lets clarify something: "dumbing down" is not a catch-all term you can just use to describe any change you disagree with. Seriously, it has very specific connotations.
Dumbing down would be SWG ditching the complex crafting system they had in place originally so that player skill and putting the effort into gathering all the best materials was no longer relevant. Whole swaths of player planning and interaction disappeared along with uniqueness of produced goods.
Lowering the access requirements to something, but not making that something easier to actually use effectively is NOT dumbing down. Sure, you may have quibbles with this potentially removing barriers and reducing character variation overall, but that's a different argument.
Even further, the skill barriers being lowered still have value in themselves. It is still worthwhile to most of those skills to 4 or 5 as that training itself incurs some benefit. The variation isn't actually lost. If anything, it's increased as players will not be forced to train those skills to 5 simply to gain access to something else. Rather than decreasing variation, it will increase it. Going to 5 will be a personal choice rather than a requirement.
That said, for CCP to do this across the board (eg the hyperbolic lowering titans to requiring frig 3) would kill the key game appeal of long-term goals and planning. HOWEVER, the skills being lowered don't really fit into that class of skill as it's all stuff that is considered 'common usage.' And besides, slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy and for the most part, a non-starter.
Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with all of the changes, nor am I concerning myself with the impact of easy-access scout alts. Those are completely seperate arguments from whether or not the game is being "dumbed down" by the changes.
|
shwarzkauph
bullets with butterfly wings
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:08:00 -
[20]
Ive been playing since the first month of the game. I demand some compensation for having to train skills I didn't have to. A couple skills of my choice to five will suffice. u lose |
|
Jimmi Bones
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:17:00 -
[21]
Confirming replacing bad game mechanics equals dumbing down the game.
|
PeHD0M
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:20:00 -
[22]
That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tres Farmer I'm just on a 'crusade' for the exploration skills here.. CCP introduced it as mini-profession. Making scanning easier, making less signatures in the new system and now dumbing down the entry level for hacking/analyzing is killing that mini-profession and makes it an everybody-has-it.. That's not a mini-profession anymore.
CCP never answered on that.
Yeah… that's not "dumbing down" things – that's just lowering the barrier of entry. Dumbing it down would have been to remove the need for the modules to begin with – find the site and all the cans will be ready to open. It could be argued that the scanning mechanics change dumbed things down, if it weren't for the fact that scanning now requires some kind of user input besides "dump probes, press button, make tea".
The answer is very simple: look at what they planned for 0.0. The stated (but missed) goal of Dominion was to get more people into nullsec. Cloaks have been shown to be pretty much essential for that kind of life. They wanted to make it more open to new players. Changing the navigation and weapon skills give new players easier access to the kinds of equipment you'd want a new player to have (you know the old idea of putting them on tackling duty?). They wanted to replace the static, passive nullsec alliance-level income sources with personal sources which all need to be scanned down, so to make that work, scanning needs to be made more easily available.
Check every skill change on that list against what they're doing with the sov and upgrade systems, and the answer is clear as day. Just too bad that the former two fall well short of the goal… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Eveloution Skills
•Hacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) •Archaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
•Salvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
•Cloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
•High Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) •Tactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
•Trajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
•Bomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
•Mining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
•Thermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
The only dumb guy here is you.
Reducing skill req har absolutly nothing to do with dumbing down EVE. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
CavoFury1
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:33:00 -
[25]
Simple.
Look at eve in it's first year. Number of skills, ships, professions.
Look at eve in it's second year. Number of skills, ships, professions.
Look at eve in it's third year. Number of skills, ships, professions.
Fourth year.
Fifth year..
6th Year...
Projected 7th year...
TRUST me.
Individual areas may be simplified, but the game overall gains in complexity each year as new ships, weapons, ammo, ships, BPO's, professions, mechanics, are added.
What they are doing is NORMALIZING. Meaning they are setting skills up for standard progression levels across the board, instead of having some require lvl 4's where as similar skills require level 3's and so on.
|
harogen
Techno Vikings
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Eveloution Skills
òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
I have read all these threads about this and still don't really see why it matters even in the slightest. ---------------------------------------- ohai! :D |
Ronha Ottrit
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:54:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ronha Ottrit on 29/11/2009 17:55:35
Originally by: PeHD0M That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
So because you can DO the profession faster = Removing the profession?
Just because I CAN probe doesn't mean I spend my whole day doing so... And more stuff to do at a earlier point = better overall gaming experience for people who don't have 7 years of SP under their belt.
If you do a college course and take excellerated learning does that mean the profession becomes trivial and you can't make money doing it anymore? Just because I can be a accountant faster then I can be a lwayer doesn't mean nobody will be a lwayer or everyone will be an accountant.
|
Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:06:00 -
[28]
How is reducing a few skill pre reqs dumbing down? its not like *right click train skill* and wait X amount of time requires any level of intelligence or gaming skill.
|
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: PeHD0M That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
Yes because a 2 day old character is going to be in ur nullsec exploration sites and wormholes sappin ur profits.
All this change will do is make the completely unused highsec and lowsec exploration sites an option because before noone would arse themselves to train up any exploration skills before they could use a ship to make the big iskies off the high end sites. Now a new player that wants to be an explorer can actually do it without having to wait for a month or so of training to finish.
Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
|
Psiri
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:16:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Psiri on 29/11/2009 18:15:55
Quote: òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2)
òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
Either way you look at it it's not many days difference and don't make any single bit of difference in the long run.
Quote: òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
Who cares? It's only salvaging.
Quote: òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
Electronics is a must have skill anyway.
Quote: òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4)
Who cares? It makes no difference.
Quote: òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
Like what, 4 days? It's a skill that you'll want at IV anyway.
Quote: òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
You need gunnery V anyway.
Quote: òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
Good change, stealth bombers should be less SP intensive.
Quote: òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
Once again, makes no difference.
Quote: òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Ok, big change here but it's a good one. Overheating is a massive advantage and quite frankly I don't see why new players should need to train energy Managament V for it. It already takes 6-8 months just to be good i a T2 fitted cruiser (with +3 implants, no crosstraining and a good skillplan). Older players will have maxed capacitor skills anyway.
Quote: Discuss
You suck and this have nothing to do with EVE being "dumbed down" either.
|
|
5pinDizzy
Amarr State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:16:00 -
[31]
Only one I agree with is the thermodynamics prequisite change.
|
Wen Jaibao
Aperture Harmonics
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:20:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Wen Jaibao on 29/11/2009 18:20:00
Originally by: Eveloution
Originally by: Khemul Zula How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
This has been the on going discussion -- why not make the requirements for titans frig 3 --
Personally I can care less but everytime they do this it makes people less appreciative of the game and what they have !
Some of us older players do remember our first cruiser--the first time we used T2 mods or T2 guns - and the first time we lost said cruiser it hurt our wallet and our ego's We had to earn the right to use these things with time-and time is what keeps this game exciting
From my perspective giving people things with less requirments justs makes the game boring. (nothing left to train for)
Cloaking/Overheating/Stuff you listed != Titan. Its not even CLOSE to titan. You, like me, probbably have all of these things trained already anyways so why do you care? How does newbies being able to do more non gamebreaking and underused things earlier make the game boring?
|
Armoured C
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:36:00 -
[33]
I find it rather hilarious on a part of the people moaning about this. You have higher skills that the new skills needed and the support skills to make you more efficient in these area than the noobs. What on earth are you crying about I welcome this change and I have been playing before RMR. This will also be adventagious towards pvp as now there will be more targgets XD.
Can't be bothered to read all the responces as I am on my G1 mobile on the way home XD. That's right I forum ***** away from my pc =)
|
Lagruna Zegata
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 19:15:00 -
[34]
I'm just glad I only trained Survey to III.
|
Opportunity Costs
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 19:17:00 -
[35]
confirming I wasted training time on useless skills aswell
thanks CCP __________________________________ - Mining your own minerals doesnt drop your manufacturing costs! - Marginal earnings is what actually counts - Time is isk and enjoyment is isk aswell |
Armoured C
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 19:20:00 -
[36]
now i am actually at home now my responce remains the same
speced people will out preform the wider spread people
|
JitaPriceChecker2
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 19:23:00 -
[37]
Obvious fail is obvious , now everyone will just overheat.
My pvp alt hasent trained EM lvl5 for overheating bescuse it was quite a investments .I have chosen to train something diffrent. Now i will not have a need to train EM lvl5 i will propably not train it for long time yet i will have 13km webs (like everyone else).
And guess what my capacitor will not suddenly die on me just because i have lvl4 instead of 5. It makes almost no diffrence to my ships and my performence !
And another note.
Opinions saying that thermodynamics is required to be effective to pvp is just a myth by people that sucks at pvp or do not pvp at all.
I was doing just fine without it until now.
|
Sosus Red
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 19:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Obvious fail is obvious , now everyone will just overheat.
My pvp alt hasent trained EM lvl5 for overheating bescuse it was quite a investments .I have chosen to train something diffrent. Now i will not have a need to train EM lvl5 i will propably not train it for long time yet i will have 13km webs (like everyone else).
And guess what my capacitor will not suddenly die on me just because i have lvl4 instead of 5. It makes almost no diffrence to my ships and my performence !
And another note.
Opinions saying that thermodynamics is required to be effective to pvp is just a myth by people that sucks at pvp or do not pvp at all.
I was doing just fine without it until now.
said JitaPriceChecker2
|
Dalaryn
Gallente Eve University
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 20:17:00 -
[39]
The only negative I'm seeing here is the opening up of thermodynamics to suicide/gank alts, the changes do not reflect the ôdumbing downö of any game content, it's simply reflects CCP's intention to make people like myself more attractive to excising 0.0 corp and alliances.
Despite my suspicion that this thread is simply an attempted troll, I'll ask you, are more people in 0.0 and lowsec is a bad thing, because that will be one of the direct results of these changes. |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 21:42:00 -
[40]
Dumbing down isnt changing a gear that requires lvl 75 down to lvl 70, dumbing down is making one ability that normally took 8 button presses of other abilities to make work into one button press. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 11OCT09
|
|
Armoured C
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2009.11.29 23:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Nova Fox Dumbing down isnt changing a gear that requires lvl 75 down to lvl 70, dumbing down is making one ability that normally took 8 button presses of other abilities to make work into one button press.
gosh i feel so dirty when wowesk things are said on these forums blahhhhh
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 01:42:00 -
[42]
The first bunch of changes here simply mean that hisec exploration sites will be attractive enough to the people who are only just capable or finding them. By the time you've trained Science to 5 and Electronics to 5, you'll no longer be interested in the income from poor quality hacking sites (as an example).
Cloaking only requiring Electronics 4 means there'll be more hauler alts able to fly blockade runners, since people may not necessarily want to spend the time training Electronics to 5 on a "throwaway" alt. Removing a few days from the training budget might encourage the training of eg: Cloaking 4.
Easier access to covops cloak will make getting into the nullsec game more attractive for some people. The hard part is getting out there without being blown up.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 02:05:00 -
[43]
Great, I'm over qualified again....
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
|
CCP Applebabe
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 02:18:00 -
[44]
Moved from General Discussion to Skill Discussion.
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
|
Hellfury Resurrected
Incura HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 02:32:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Isurus Paucus Lowering the access requirements to something, but not making that something easier to actually use effectively is NOT dumbing down.
-------------------------------------------
|
Kenneth McCoy
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 02:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Cypherous Its called reducing skills on professions that had some fairly not nice skill reqs in the first place, i for 1 approve and look forward to grabbing that thermodynamics skill for the first time :P
You're p. terrible for not having Thermo anyway.
|
Arkeladin
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 02:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Eveloution Skills
òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
Read this in it's entirety. You will find ALL your concerns addressed there. Don't be turned off by the title of the page; read on and everything is revealed. Enlightenment shall be received.
|
Havlentia Castigatrix
Gallente The Avalon Foundation
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 03:08:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Arkeladin
Read this in it's entirety. You will find ALL your concerns addressed there. Don't be turned off by the title of the page; read on and everything is revealed. Enlightenment shall be received.
Eve online forums have been trope gold since 2005. Your link is redundant, but gratefully received.
----- This space left intentionally blank |
Arkeladin
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 03:16:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Havlentia Castigatrix
Originally by: Arkeladin
Read this in it's entirety. You will find ALL your concerns addressed there. Don't be turned off by the title of the page; read on and everything is revealed. Enlightenment shall be received.
Eve online forums have been trope gold since 2005. Your link is redundant, but gratefully received.
Felt it needed to be referenced, as the OP's post is a prime example of that page's subject matter. Redundancy be damned; sometimes these young'uns need a reminder
|
Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 03:27:00 -
[50]
Originally by: PeHD0M That thanges suck. They are removing the whole exploration profession, because now you can do anything from day 2. Survey V is pointless. Great.
ccp don't care about older players opinion and dumb the game down for newbies joy. This NGE sucks.
Exploration is being brought in as a newbie starter career. Keeping the skill levels the same would be somewhat stupid
|
|
Cyberman Mastermind
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: PeHD0M Survey V is pointless. Great.
That should tell a lot about the skill Survey itself. If L5 is useless because ONE other skill doesn't depend on it anymore, why does it exist at all? Does Survey actually have any practical use beyond enabling a few skills? |
slightly sillydude
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:58:00 -
[52]
I'd like my 7 days on survey 5 back thank you, that one is pretty damn annoying. All the other skills though I am pretty happy I trained, regardless of what they unlocked. In fact, the changes only add to the uniqueness of charachters that already trained them, as they are not must haves that everybody has. Still, they could have kept survey 5 as a prereq for the good 0.0 arch sites if they really just wanted to make it a starter prof. Same for hacking
|
Forrun Soundingname
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 08:41:00 -
[53]
Just because you can get the ability to use a basic cloaking device 5-6 days sooner doesn't mean anything. To use a blockade runner stll needs racial industrial 5 (20 days+) To use a covert ops needs frigate 5 and electronics upgrades 5 (combined time of 20 days+) So you save 5-6 days on a skill you will want anyway to help with fitting
I can see why the null-sec carebears are crying about survey 5 not doing anything now, but who's to say what content CCP will release in the future that will require it as a prereq. Then you will all be on here saying how l33t you are because you already have it trained.
|
N Ano
Caldari Blue Sun Enterprises
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 08:57:00 -
[54]
Didnt bother reading the thread but its most likely done for the new career path CCP are adding with dominion Make the Beership a reality! |
Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 09:23:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Khemul Zula How exactly does reducing skill requirements 'dumb down' the game?
By removing or reducing the consequences of your choices.
I.e. no need to choose between having or eating the cake, when you can do both. As an exaggerated but hopefully illustrative analogy.
Slippery slope a fallacy? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Only time will tell for sure. However, what is almost a certainty, is that if the slippery slope predicted today, turns out to be true tomorrow (read:next year or the one after that) the ones who called it a fallacy today, will never own up to having been wrong.
|
Duke Dragoon
Red Eye Brigade
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 11:41:00 -
[56]
I was pretty dumb even before this patch
|
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 11:57:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Does Survey actually have any practical use beyond enabling a few skills?
According to the description it gives you 5% duration bonus on the modules that needs it.
|
Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:02:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Does Survey actually have any practical use beyond enabling a few skills?
According to the description it gives you 5% duration bonus on the modules that needs it.
Ship/cargo scanners Woooooooo!
|
Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:09:00 -
[59]
Regardless, I have multiple skill books sitting in my hangar that I cannot train, waiting for me to log in after the patch and inject immediately. I am happy about that. Literally saving me about a month and a half of training, and I've been playing since February. |
Amaron Ghant
Caldari Miners In Possession
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:37:00 -
[60]
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
Praise the lord and pass the shrapnel bombs
I've been playing for six years and i'm still happy to see these changes. |
|
Amaron Ghant
Caldari Miners In Possession
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:42:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Rhanna Khurin
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Does Survey actually have any practical use beyond enabling a few skills?
According to the description it gives you 5% duration bonus on the modules that needs it.
Ship/cargo scanners Woooooooo!
Used extensively by gankers and spankers to see if its worthwhile opening up on juicy empire freighters. can I get a Woooooo from the YARRRRBOYZ? I would sup with the devil and forget to use a long spoon if it led to me spitting on the grave of nationalism.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:53:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 30/11/2009 12:55:32 Honestly guys, I wonder how many trolls are in this thread. Consequences for your choices has always been a cornerstone of this game. Teamwork has always been one of the cornerstones of this game. This change hurts both.
I realize that there is need for easier access to new players, but killing the need to specialize for your profession is plainly stupid. While _access_ should be easier, reaching peak performance for it should require choices and time.
Currently you can reach peak performance with an investment that does not require EVEN A SINGLE SKILL at level 5 (no, not even frigate 5). Considering the training time that it is required to reach peak performance in, say, T2 weapons, this is completely foobarred. Everybody who invested training time in the useless survey 5 and the almost useless electronics upgrades 5, insted of training a weapon skill to 5, feels at this time completely shafted.
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 14:01:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Space Wanderer Currently you can reach peak performance with an investment that does not require EVEN A SINGLE SKILL at level 5 (no, not even frigate 5). Considering the training time that it is required to reach peak performance in, say, T2 weapons, this is completely foobarred. Everybody who invested training time in the useless survey 5 and the almost useless electronics upgrades 5, insted of training a weapon skill to 5, feels at this time completely shafted.
Eh… what profession would that be, especially in relation to the changes being made here?
As for Electronic Upgrades V being "almost useless", there are 20 ships in the game that depends on having that skill to that level – ships that are very popular and sought after.
(Oh, and losing out on a small weapon system to lvl V because you went for a skill you would have trained anyway and one that you might not – booohoooo ) ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:15:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Qui Shon
By removing or reducing the consequences of your choices.
I.e. no need to choose between having or eating the cake, when you can do both. As an exaggerated but hopefully illustrative analogy.
The consequences of NOT training those skills to 5 are still present. Okay, sure, survey 5 is utterly worthless now, but that's a problem with the skill itself rather than anything else. However, all of the other skills have inherent benefits that are not being negated.
Also, your analogy sucks. It would be more akin to being make faster, less tasty cakes that are edible. Sure, we can eat the cake sooner, but that still doesn't mean there aren't better cakes. Also a terrible analogy, but at least it accounts for the difference between the two pilots.
Also, Slippery slope IS a fallacy in this instance. Even if CCP screws up something else later, the present changes appear to be pretty sensible and arguing against change on the sole basis that similar changes could someday result in something bad is not rational. All change has inherent risk, and stagnation does not mitigate risk.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:25:00 -
[65]
It is of interest that while you nitpicked some trivials in my post you could not find the words to attack the most relevant part: "Consequences for your choices has always been a cornerstone of this game. Teamwork has always been one of the cornerstones of this game. This change hurts both."
But, just for amusement, let's see the rest of it.
Originally by: Tippia Ehà what profession would that be, especially in relation to the changes being made here?
Exploration of any kind. Are you seriously telling me you need skills at 5 to do that? But, more to the point, is there ANY reason now to train at 5 exploration skills with no combat effects?
You see, I have no concerns about content being easily accessible. My concern is that there is basically no more reason to train exploration skills at lvl5, when you could train combat skills at 5. No choice, unless you consciously choose to be dumb. What is worse, is that CCP could easily make content easily accessible, but condition the loot obtained by the cans from the level of profession skills, thus making the content accessible to everybody but giving people reason to specialize in some directions.
Originally by: Tippia As for Electronic Upgrades V being "almost useless", there are 20 ships in the game that depends on having that skill to that level û ships that are very popular and sought after.
Possibly. Since I don't fly them in that way I should have said "useless to me". Besides, whatever they are, I suspect you are using a gross hyperbole. I doubt you couldn't come up with a less efficient non-T2 fitting to cover-up for that 5% CPU less.
Originally by: Tippia (Oh, and losing out on a small weapon system to lvl V because you went for a skill you would have trained anyway and one that you might not û booohoooo )
There are two points here to be stated: 1) You smell pretty much of trolling because if you had bothered to read without bias you would have written "because you went for a skill you might not have trained anyway and one that certainly you would have not".
2) I assume you don't work for your money (or isk if you use GTCs). You know, there are people who have to work to pay for their training time, and I don't relish to be subject to what in other contexts would be called a fraud, as paltry as the amount could be (which admittedly is accountable in few euros).
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:55:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Space Wanderer It is of interest that while you nitpicked some trivials in my post you could not find the words to attack the most relevant part: "Consequences for your choices has always been a cornerstone of this game. Teamwork has always been one of the cornerstones of this game. This change hurts both."
…because it's a silly statement. The "hurt" here is insignificant and completely counteracted by the benefit of giving new players something useful to do.
Quote: Exploration of any kind. Are you seriously telling me you need skills at 5 to do that?
Are you seriously telling me that you reach "peak performance" without training them to 5? Because that's what you said. You're basically claiming is that 25% = 35%, which is patently false.
Quote: Possibly. Since I don't fly them in that way I should have said "useless to me". Besides, whatever they are, I suspect you are using a gross hyperbole.
4×2 covops ships, 4×2 recon ships, 4 ewar frigs. Yeah. Useless.
Incidentally, this means you have yet another skill you want to train to V get peak performance.
Quote: You smell pretty much of trolling because if you had bothered to read without bias you would have written "because you went for a skill you might not have trained anyway and one that certainly you would have not".
Why on earth would I have written that? Electronic Upgrades V is something you will train to V, not something you "might" get. Same for Survey V, actually, if you want to be a full-fledged explorer.
Quote: I don't relish to be subject to what in other contexts would be called a fraud.
LMAO. No. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 19:29:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tippia àbecause it's a silly statement. The "hurt" here is insignificant and completely counteracted by the benefit of giving new players something useful to do.
1) The hurt is very real and unquestionable. Even you stipulate that it is present. The "insignificant" and "completely counteracted" are your personal opinions. 2) While I may agree that in this specific instance the "hurt" is not that much (about 15 days of training overall), it's the signal that it sends that is very worrying. I wouldn't have had anything to say if they had reduced the skill training required for new players to try the professional sites, while at the same time giving them incentive to train the professional non-combat skills. CCP did only the first part, behaving effectively like many other software houses that after the first release of a product change stuff to make things easier. And they did that on something that had some very low requirements from start.
Quote: Are you seriously telling me that you reach "peak performance" without training them to 5? Because that's what you said. You're basically claiming is that 25% = 35%, which is patently false.
I suppose we can spend all day debating semantics about what we define as "peak performance" in exploration. I consider it as the ability to find every site and exploit them in the same timeframe. The fact that you need 4 minutes instead of 3 to find the site, or 1 minute instead of 30 sec to open a can, doesn't strike me as 25% != 35%. More like the difference between 25% and 25.1%. But if you want to state seriously that there is something there that makes those skill worthwhile to train them up to 5... well, go right ahead, I'm all ears.
For god's sake, to find sites there is no difference at all between even having astrometrics 1 and 5! Again, what you are missing to read is that I am not saying to cut off new players (which they are not anyway and it is silly to say they are... ever heard of wormholes, space anomalies, combat sites, escalations, mining sites? All stuff that does not require a single skill at 5 to be found and exploited), I am saying to give something worthwhile to have a REASON to train the professional non-combat skills over... well... everything else. Currently there isn't.
Quote: 4+2 covops ships, 4+2 recon ships, 4 ewar frigs.
Was pretty sure you were using a gross hyperbole. Thank you for confirming it. While _useful_ to fit that extra T2 EW module (which you could get a named version of to reduce its CPU cost) there is no _need_ to have it. Besides, I never needed electronics upgrade 5 for MY covop. Except as a forced requirements.
Quote: Same for Survey V, actually, if you want to be a full-fledged explorer.
So, you are seriously stating that a "full-fledged" explorer eventually would go "exploring" moons that 100 other people have already "explored" and most likely recorded in some DBs. Ok. I think I don't need to comment further on this one, you did a good job on your own.
|
Smk56
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 21:35:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Tippia 4+2 covops ships, 4+2 recon ships, 4 ewar frigs.
Was pretty sure you were using a gross hyperbole. Thank you for confirming it. While _useful_ to fit that extra T2 EW module (which you could get a named version of to reduce its CPU cost) there is no _need_ to have it. Besides, I never needed electronics upgrade 5 for MY covop. Except as a forced requirements
Except he wasn't exaggerating anything. You can't fly any of those ships without EU5. The fact that you didn't need the extra cpu it provided is irrelevant. You simply can not fly any of those ships without it.
|
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 21:46:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Smk56 Except he wasn't exaggerating anything. You can't fly any of those ships without EU5. The fact that you didn't need the extra cpu it provided is irrelevant. You simply can not fly any of those ships without it.
Apparantly quantity (as in lots of words) is more important than quality (as in saying something coherent).
Free jumpclone service: Thread |
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.11.30 23:58:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Smk56 Except he wasn't exaggerating anything. You can't fly any of those ships without EU5. The fact that you didn't need the extra cpu it provided is irrelevant. You simply can not fly any of those ships without it.
Ah yes, I see. My apologies, I completely forgot about electronic upgrades being also prereq for those ship (trained it too much time ago). But that actually makes my main point stronger. You have to train EU at 5 if you want to fly specialized ships. Training it is a choice you make, and you sacrifice something else in doing it. Why shouldn't you have to train skills at level 5 if you want to exploit specialized sites? It's not like there isn't plenty of non-specialized sites that can be exploited without the need of using hacking or archeology.
Again, I don't mind entry levels reqs being easy, but there should be a significant advantage in having the proper skills at lvl5 so that you have to make choices in what to train. Currently, for any of the mini-professions (exploration, hacking, archeology, only salvaging gets a very situational advantage), this is not the case.
|
|
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 00:18:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Smk56 Except he wasn't exaggerating anything. You can't fly any of those ships without EU5. The fact that you didn't need the extra cpu it provided is irrelevant. You simply can not fly any of those ships without it.
Ah yes, I see. My apologies, I completely forgot about electronic upgrades being also prereq for those ship (trained it too much time ago). But that actually makes my main point stronger. You have to train EU at 5 if you want to fly specialized ships. Training it is a choice you make, and you sacrifice something else in doing it. Why shouldn't you have to train skills at level 5 if you want to exploit specialized sites? It's not like there isn't plenty of non-specialized sites that can be exploited without the need of using hacking or archeology.
Again, I don't mind entry levels reqs being easy, but there should be a significant advantage in having the proper skills at lvl5 so that you have to make choices in what to train. Currently, for any of the mini-professions (exploration, hacking, archeology, only salvaging gets a very situational advantage), this is not the case.
It sounds more like your argument is with most Lvl 5's being kinda crap, which is another discussion entirely. Anyway, there's a huge difference between flying a specialized ship and becoming involved in what CCP seems to want to make widely available mini-professions or combat options.
However, lowering the point of entry into lvl 1 of certain skills is not going to necessarily make the pilot in question good enough to actually use them effectively in any meaningful way. Yay, I can use a hacking module on a high-sec exploration site. If I'm REALLY lucky, maybe I'll get a 500k item. It also doesn't negate the fact that pilots who DID go all the way to 5 will, in most cases, have an advantage over those that did not (Again, whether that advantage is worth it is another conversation entirely).
|
Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 00:45:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 01/12/2009 00:46:47
Originally by: Isurus Paucus
Originally by: Qui Shon
By removing or reducing the consequences of your choices.
I.e. no need to choose between having or eating the cake, when you can do both. As an exaggerated but hopefully illustrative analogy.
The consequences of NOT training those skills to 5 are still present. Okay, sure, survey 5 is utterly worthless now, but that's a problem with the skill itself rather than anything else. However, all of the other skills have inherent benefits that are not being negated.
Also, your analogy sucks. It would be more akin to being make faster, less tasty cakes that are edible. Sure, we can eat the cake sooner, but that still doesn't mean there aren't better cakes. Also a terrible analogy, but at least it accounts for the difference between the two pilots.
Also, Slippery slope IS a fallacy in this instance. Even if CCP screws up something else later, the present changes appear to be pretty sensible and arguing against change on the sole basis that similar changes could someday result in something bad is not rational. All change has inherent risk, and stagnation does not mitigate risk.
The analogy doesn't suck, you not understanding it does suck, however. There is no need to expand upon it with the crap in you middle paragraph, the point is the same, and any reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand that.
Consequence of not training? Puhleeze, try harder (meaning sure there is a "consequence", but it's insignificant.
Slippery slope? There is exploration, which used to be a specialization skillset, required dedication, a bit of knowledge and yes, even player skill, but most of all oodles of patience. Today you still need a bit of knowledge, even player skill, but no patience at all and only mediocre skills.
Scanning was made ridiculously quick in Apo. But that wasn't enough, so it was further dumbed down, by introducing sig id's and even an ignore function. It was made so easy L5 skills (not to mention Virtues) are pretty much a waste even for w-space, and utterly and completely wasted for k-space exploration. The actual exploring part has all but been removed from exploration (apart from w-space, and even there it's only useful because you have to filter out so much crap to get what you need. Whereas before it used to be the most important thing.
So, that was before, that was an *earlier* part of the slippery slope. This patch the slippery slope continues with lowering of skill requirements. Next patch or the one after that we'll get more of it. That's a safe bet. It's not something that *may* be happening in the future. It's something that has happened, that is happening right now (tonight) and that will continue to happen in the future. CCP want to attract the masses, and there is only one way to do that: Pander to the console tards, aka adhd instant gratification kiddies.
Then there's character creation, which was dumbed down beyond all recognition. All choice apart from meaningless cosmetics *completely* removed. But don't even get me started on that one.
You know, if they up the double training speed limit to 3,2m, that'd actually be better then lowering pre-reqs. Downside would be an alt explosion.
|
Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 00:54:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Isurus Paucus (Again, whether that advantage is worth it is another conversation entirely).
No, it is not another conversation at all. They are part of the same process, intimately tied together.
|
Dacryphile
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 01:10:00 -
[74]
[inserts appropriate "eve is dying" post and moves on]
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:58:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 01/12/2009 13:59:19
Originally by: Isurus Paucus Anyway, there's a huge difference between flying a specialized ship and becoming involved in what CCP seems to want to make widely available mini-professions or combat options.
Of course there is, and that's what I am contesting. There is a huge difference only because CCP has decided that there must be a huge difference. Which I think is a big mistake.
Originally by: Isurus Paucus However, lowering the point of entry into lvl 1 of certain skills is not going to necessarily make the pilot in question good enough to actually use them effectively in any meaningful way.
Except that in this case it almost does. Hacking 4 (about 1 day of training, maybe 2) is enough to gather stuff from any site. Again: NO SKILL AT 5 IS REQUIRED to do even the most difficult things that the profession allows, and that in a very similar timeframe. If you are ok with that, fine. But then don't complain when I ask to lower T2 weapons and ships requirements to lvl4 as well. After all skills at lvl5 still give an advantage, now don't they?
Originally by: Isurus Paucus It also doesn't negate the fact that pilots who DID go all the way to 5 will, in most cases, have an advantage over those that did not (Again, whether that advantage is worth it is another conversation entirely).
Why would it belong to another conversation? The point that people in this thread are asking is: "with this skill changes is there ANY reason to choose professional specialization instead of other specializations?". The advantage given by the lvl5 skills is certainly relevant to this discussion. And, incidentally, nobody in this thread has been able to produce a single decent argument in favor of a "yes" to the question.
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 15:48:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Tippia on 01/12/2009 15:48:28
Originally by: Space Wanderer Again: NO SKILL AT 5 IS REQUIRED to do even the most difficult things that the profession allows, and that in a very similar timeframe.
…except that that's not what you said, so saying "again" isn't quite correct.
You were saying that you didn't need V:s to reach peak performance, which you can't get without reducing the required search and access times to a minimum, which you can't do without the right ships and T2 equipment, and without maxed-out skills.
Quote: If you are ok with that, fine. But then don't complain when I ask to lower T2 weapons and ships requirements to lvl4 as well.
Except that none of what's being changed here does that. They change the requirements for some T1 equipment – stuff that makes it easier for new players to get a taste of the various other passtimes EVE have to offer.
You're equating a lowered barrier of entry with a reduction in requirements for the top-end stuff. That's a silly comparison and nothing of the kind is actually happening. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 16:16:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tippia You were saying that you didn't need V:s to reach peak performance, which you can't get without reducing the required search and access times to a minimum, which you can't do without the right ships and T2 equipment, and without maxed-out skills.
You know what? You are right. Without any lvl5 skills you need 4 minutes instead of three to find a site, and 40 seconds instead of 30 to open a can. If you want to speak about semantic trivialities go right ahead, the fact stands that there is no reason at all to train at lvl5 those that you believe are "peak perfomance" skills.
Quote: You're equating a lowered barrier of entry with a reduction in requirements for the top-end stuff. That's a silly comparison and nothing of the kind is actually happening.
Err... no, I am equating a reduction in requirements for the top-end stuff to a reduction in requirements for the top-end stuff. What's the "top-end" exploration stuff that requires people to train multiple lvl 5 skills before they can even access it?
|
iamnotacriminal
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 17:04:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Eveloution Skills
òHacking has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5), Electronics level 1 (down from level 2), Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) òArchaeology has the following prerequisites: Science level 3(down from level 5), Survey level 3 (down from level 5), Electronics level 1
òSalvaging has the following prerequisites: Mechanic level 3, Survey at level 3 and Engineering at level 1
òCloaking has the following prerequisites Electronics level 4 ( was 5)
òHigh Speed Maneuvering has Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3 as its prerequisites (instead of all at level 4) òTactical Shield Manipulation has Engineering at level 3 as its prerequisites(instead of level 4)
òTrajectory Analysis has Gunnery at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of 5)
òBomb Deployment has missile bombardment at level 4 as a prerequisite (instead of level 5)
òMining Upgrades now has Mining at level 3 as a prerequisite (instead of 4)
òThermodynamics has Engineering at level 5, Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) and Science at level 4
Discuss
The only thing here that bothers me is the hacking... As a major prerequisite to research, i feel the lv5 electronics upgrades should have stayed. The rest is ok, even with the theromdynamics lowered, all that means is the rookies will burn out their sheild and armor tanks, weapons, mods etc quicker. funny thing about the magical thermodynamics, using it causes damage, and before long your mods don't work. Waiting 16 days for it is irrelevant, however as a core skill I'd imagine most will bring energy management to 5 for the cap bonus. Just my thoughts, the rest is kudos ccp, making the game more accessible to rookies only means more ransom and salvage for me.
|
Moe Cislak
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 18:02:00 -
[79]
I like these new changes. Training skills for month to actually do something fun isn't a good thing.
I will finally be able to try Exploration.
|
hall vinal
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 18:04:00 -
[80]
Reducing skill requirements is not dumbing down EVE. There is nothing particularly smart about tying in your username and password, logging in, opening up character sheet, and setting another 5-15 day skill in training. Then waiting out those 5-15 days.
It does, however, make skill completion feel less significant. When I had to wait almost 2 weeks to train Energy Management V get Thermodynamics skill it just felt like much more of an achievement when it completed than now, when I can plug in Thermodynamics right off the bat no any of my characters.
|
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 18:33:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Moe Cislak I will finally be able to try Exploration.
Err.. what was stopping you to try that earlier? It's not like astrometrics 1 is particularly hard to train...
|
Zepoxi
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 18:35:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tippia Giving new players something to do besides doing missions isn't dumbing the game down û it's smarting the newbies up.
This!
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.01 19:03:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Tippia …except that that's not what you said
Originally by: Space Wanderer Currently you can reach peak performance with an investment that does not require EVEN A SINGLE SKILL at level 5
Try training Reading at lvl5.
Fixed. Yeah, I completely misunderstood how you said that could reach peak performance without training stuff to lvl V. Judicious editing and revisionism won't change what you said, you know.
Face it, you were proven wrong and now you're just trying to make it seem like you said something else.
Quote: the fact stands that there is no reason at all to train at lvl5 those that you believe are "peak perfomance" skills.
Say what? You were the one starting to jabber on about peak performance and how you could reach it without any real training – you were the one who defined the skills (and who's now trying to redefine what it is when reminded that you forgot what was required to get there).
Quote: Err... no, I am equating a reduction in requirements for the top-end stuff to a reduction in requirements for the top-end stuff.
So you're not complaining about these changes at all, then, since they don't affect the top-end stuff?
Quote: What's the "top-end" exploration stuff that requires people to train multiple lvl 5 skills before they can even access it?
CovOps, T2 salvagers/analyzers/codebreakers, DSPs, Gaze Probes… Oops…
Look, if you don't know what the skills do, you really shouldn't complain about changes to them because some obnoxious bastard will come around and call you on it, and you'll look silly. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 00:15:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tippia Face it, you were proven wrong and now you're just trying to make it seem like you said something else.
Nice troll. First you reply to a post not directed at you, for which my statement is correct. Then you quote it out-of-context, pretending I was talking to you. And of course you (willfully?) skipped all the parts of my posts that essentially say "who cares about the entry level as long as the top-ends are worthwhile". Classical trolling technique, really.
Quote: Say what? You were the one starting to jabber on about peak performance and how you could reach it without any real training
Feel free to "prove me wrong" about what a "peak performance" is. By doing that you imply that you expect people to willingly choose to devote a couple of months of training for the privilege to open cans in 30 secs instead than 40, and to find sites in 3 minutes instead than 4. If you think that makes you look smart, go right ahead, I won't stop you.
Quote: So you're not complaining about these changes at all, then, since they don't affect the top-end stuff?
Ah, but they most certainly do. Oh wait, maybe you think that "top-end stuff" in exploration are t2 codebreakers?
Quote:
Quote: What's the "top-end" exploration stuff that requires people to train multiple lvl 5 skills before they can even access it?
CovOps, T2 salvagers/analyzers/codebreakers, DSPs, Gaze Probesà Oopsà
I cannot believe you are willingly shooting your point in the foot like that... Are you seriously implying that codebreakers T2, analyzers T2, and any kind of moon probes have are any worth for exploration? Just because they are T2 modules that does not make them worth the effort. If you use proper equipement, even covops are much less useful for exploration than they used to be. If they hadn't the covop cloak on them (which is useful for protection and travel, not for exploration) it wouldn't be even worth to train for them anymore.
Originally by: Tippia Look, if you don't know what the skills do,
Tippia, I am sorry to break this to you, but stating that analyzers and codebreakers t2 are "top-end" exploration stuff simply shows that YOU don't know anything about the skills. I proved well enough to all the expert explorers in eve forums that I know how exploration works. But of course you wouldn't know why...
|
Oneiros IV
Stella Polaris.
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 01:58:00 -
[85]
I fail to see how "dumbing down" that is, long skills don't make gameplay more intellectual.
|
hanzyfranzy
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 02:59:00 -
[86]
Making skill prereqs lower enhances the game for everyone. Those of you who wished to keep the reqs as they were are undoubtedly very selfish. I, for one, wish I had the opportunity to pursue exploration as a new player, but shrugged it off once I learned what the prereqs were. It allows everyone to access the exploration aspect of the game, which is very fun.
|
TCL987
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 07:50:00 -
[87]
òHacking: Science level 3(down from level 5) Useless for PVP, V needed for invention anyways Electronics Upgrades level 3(down from level 5) Needed for Covert Ops and therefore any decent scanning setup. Electronics level 1 (down from level 2) Need V Engineering level 1 (down from level 2) Need V
òArchaeology: Science level 3(down from level 5) Useless for PVP, V needed for invention anyways Survey level 3 (down from level 5) Useless(If it had an effect on Salvagers, Codebreakers and Analyzers it might be worth training) Electronics level 1 Need V
òSalvaging: Mechanic level 3 Need V Survey at level 3 Useless see above comment on this skill. Engineering at level 1 Need V
òCloaking: Electronics level 4 ( was 5) Need V
òHigh Speed Maneuvering: Navigation at level 3 and Afterburner at level 3(instead of all at level 4) Who cares? You're slower without Navigation IV.
òTactical Shield Manipulation: Engineering at level 3(instead of level 4) Need V
òTrajectory Analysis: Gunnery at level 4(instead of 5) Need V
òBomb Deployment: missile bombardment at level 4(instead of level 5) Useful if you use missile boats and need more range useless otherwise.
òMining Upgrades: Mining at level 3(instead of 4) Who cares? You mine less without Mining IV and you'll need Mining V for any decent yield.
òThermodynamics: Engineering at level 5 Need V Energy Management at level 3(instead of 5) Need V Science at level 4 Need V
When I say "Need V" I don't mean when they are still a n00b. Pretty much all of the skills that affect every ship you fly should be level V anyways for the simple reason that they affect every ship you fly.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 08:24:00 -
[88]
Originally by: hanzyfranzy Making skill prereqs lower enhances the game for everyone. Those of you who wished to keep the reqs as they were are undoubtedly very selfish.
I agree. Let's remove prereqs for titans and T2 weapons too. Those who don't want them to be removed are very selfish too. Actually I am in favor to make things much more dependent on lvl5 that I have not trained yet (and that I don't expect to train, because I would be a moron to waste training time like that). That's very selfish on my own, isn't it?
Originally by: hanzyfranzy I, for one, wish I had the opportunity to pursue exploration as a new player, but shrugged it off once I learned what the prereqs were.
I beg your pardon? You have been put off by astrometrics 1? People here are acting like exploration cannot be pursued without professional skills. Do you even know what you are talking about?
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 09:54:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Tippia on 02/12/2009 10:00:07
Originally by: Space Wanderer First you reply to a post not directed at you, for which my statement is correct.
It doesn't matter whom you directed it at – you were trying to make it appear as if you had said the same thing before, when what you actually said before was something completely different. So no, what you said wasn't correct, and my quote was not out of context (unless you consider "showing your inconsistencies" is out of context).
Quote: Feel free to "prove me wrong" about what a "peak performance" is. By doing that you imply that you expect people to willingly choose to devote a couple of months of training for the privilege to open cans in 30 secs instead than 40, and to find sites in 3 minutes instead than 4. If you think that makes you look smart, go right ahead, I won't stop you.
Once again, you confuse yourself with me – I don't expect them to do anything. You're the one talking about "peak performance". You know, the kind of performance you can get at best (because that's what it is)?
Quote: I cannot believe you are willingly shooting your point in the foot like that... Are you seriously implying that codebreakers T2, analyzers T2, and any kind of moon probes have are any worth for exploration?
No, I'm saying it's the top-end stuff. The things that give you the best performance. The stuff that adds those last few percent that let you get the stuff faster. Whether they're worth the effort or not is a different (and completely subjective) matter.
Quote: Tippia, I am sorry to break this to you, but stating that analyzers and codebreakers t2 are "top-end" exploration stuff simply shows that YOU don't know anything about the skills.
You asked. I answered. You chose a poor wording and now you're trying to change what you said when proven wrong. Live with it. That is, unless you can show me some better equipment that you could get with the same skills at lower levels. Show me that I know nothing about the skills by demonstrating the better stuff you get at lower levels in said skills and I'll take it back.
Oh and: note that it's you who are claiming that these items are exploration tools – not me. Again, you somehow manage to confuse the two of us… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Perfection Tau
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 10:26:00 -
[90]
I'd prefer to see things much more dependant on pilot's skills, because if anything is dumb in eve - it's combat: 1) right ship 2) right target 3) orbit 4) ... 5) PROFIT!
Oh did I forgot the pinnacle of tro0 peeveepee for l33t intellectuals? Yeah that's dreads! lock stuff, choose whatever FC says and press F1.
This game is so complicated that mere playing it adding some serious inches to your space di***
|
|
Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 11:08:00 -
[91]
Originally by: hall vinal Reducing skill requirements is not dumbing down EVE. There is nothing particularly smart about tying in your username and password, logging in, opening up character sheet, and setting another 5-15 day skill in training. Then waiting out those 5-15 days.
Of course not. But there is in weighing your options and choosing one thing over another, in optimizing a limited resource to maximise utility for your chosen path(s). With lower requirements, the impact of that choice is reduced, or removed. And thus it is no choice at all.
|
Spii't Gelekk
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 11:48:00 -
[92]
4 pages of blabla. You know, i might like a discussion about dumbing down Eve. But all i see here are whining old players who might have spent a few days of training, with the exception of perhaps survey ALL these skills are USEFUL anyway.
And if you're so worried that n00bs are getting Thermodynamics, train it to L5 if you haven't already.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 11:56:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tippia note that it's you who are claiming that these items are exploration tools û not me.
Ooook....
Quote: You chose a poor wording and now you're trying to change what you said when proven wrong. Live with it.
*sigh* Tippia, you are tiring at best. If I understand correctly you have been spending thousands of characters, I have no idea how much time, and been overlooking to reply to the relevant points of the debate because you think I used poor wording in a sentence? You must be very bored.
For me the performance of exploration depends on the amount and quality of sites that you can find and exploit, apparently for you it's whether you can do it in 3 or 4 minutes. However I am tired of nitpicking semantics and prefer to make my point so if it makes you happy I'll stipulate to your definitions, apologize for miscommunication, and fix the original sentence in a way that appeals more to your aesthetic sense:
"Currently you can reach almost peak performance with an investment that does not require EVEN A SINGLE SKILL at level 5 (no, not even frigate 5). Considering the training time that it is required to reach almost peak performance in, say, T2 weapons, specialized ships, not to speak capitals, this is completely foobarred."
Hope that helps you concentrate on the real issues that are worrying the explorers.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 12:22:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/12/2009 12:23:18
Originally by: Qui Shon Of course not. But there is in weighing your options and choosing one thing over another, in optimizing a limited resource to maximise utility for your chosen path(s). With lower requirements, the impact of that choice is reduced, or removed. And thus it is no choice at all.
Just let me add one thing to this. I do not agree that putting low requirements for entry is necessarily a bad thing. I claim that it is a bad for the exploration mini professions, because there is no sense in training any exploration skill at 5 (not even frigate 5). You obtain the same results in almost the same time with lower skills.
Now, admittedly the real problem in game design is on the top-end part of the profession which should be much more tied to the skill progressions, for example in the type of cans that you can open or the amount of loot dropped by the cans. I have explored 90% of my time in EVE and still couldn't find a reason to train hacking or archeology at 5. I would love to do that, but it just feels exceedingly moronic to waste time in that way.
Until this part of the design is not fixed (and it looks like that CCP has no intention of fixing it) hacking and archeology are just skills, not professions, which means that the only way to keep them professions is to force people to train skills at lvl5 before reaching them.
Most likely, also looking at how easy scanning has become, CCP has just written off the concept of specialized miniprofessions, because they require additional effort and choices. I thought CCP wouldn't have caved in to the masses up to this point, but apparently I was wrong.
|
Hardiel Da'le'mei
|
Posted - 2009.12.02 22:29:00 -
[95]
Dumbing down?
Opening up more things for people not dumbing down, its making it more complicated. Wait till the new game hooks up with EVE, you'll see some changes then I'm quite sure :P
|
Junko Togawa
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 00:07:00 -
[96]
As long as we remain a game with a heirarchy of trained skills and not descend into a series of fixed classes like that other MMO space game "Sun Battles" or whatever it was, I won't think this is getting dumbed down. Indeed, I would say that the NPE introduced in Apocrypha took us a big step BACK from that direction, as the race/bloodline/ancestry/career/specialization starting package red tape was taking us progressively CLOSER to it.
|
Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 08:59:00 -
[97]
Since skill training has no effect on actual player skill i don't really see how lowering some requirements for skills is dumbing EVE down.
All it does is get newbies faster into some more varying professions, which is very very welcome to both vets and newbies.
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:57:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Reiisha Since skill training has no effect on actual player skill i don't really see how lowering some requirements for skills is dumbing EVE down.
I agree. And since skill training has no effect on actual player skill i don't really see how lowering some requirements for T2 weapons and ships might dumb EVE down.
Specialization is one of the key features of EVE. You make your choices, choosing to specialize one way or another. With the removal of those requirements they have effectively removed a (already mild) specialization, because specializing in hacking/archeology has become an exercise in futility.
|
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:07:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Space Wanderer Ooook....
I asked you what profession would be affected by the changes – you said exploration. The items being affected by the change are the ones I listed, so that means you claim these items are exploration tools.
Quote: For me the performance of exploration depends on the amount and quality of sites that you can find and exploit, apparently for you it's whether you can do it in 3 or 4 minutes.
Less time = higher amount, so you're basically saying the same thing. Or are you trying to argue that you can find the same amount by being slow? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:06:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Reiisha Since skill training has no effect on actual player skill i don't really see how lowering some requirements for skills is dumbing EVE down.
All it does is get newbies faster into some more varying professions, which is very very welcome to both vets and newbies.
See post #91
|
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:11:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Tippia ]Less time = higher amount, so you're basically saying the same thing.
Quality != quantity, though you seem to think differently.
However this is a nice attempt to renew a defused troll, I'll grant you that. I stipulated to your definition and gave you a point that fits your criteria, so feel free to argue your point... if you have one.
|
Hannydue
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.12.03 23:31:00 -
[102]
CCP wants new players, alot of new players and not 150,000 players with 2 or 3 accounts. The way I see it interest in this game is pretty much flatlined even after the last few expantions. If CCP wants to bring in the masses they are going to have to increase the skill traning times in some ways and they know it. most people are turned right off the the games skill treadmill and grindtastic gameplay. so yeah so called dumbing down will continue and it should. Big time.
no one owns anything in Eve, no one even owns thier own character. to bad you got so attached to something you will never own no matter how much money and time you put into it That's MMs' fou you. The rules and gameplay always changing.
Let us skill train at +200% or maybe buy skills :) There are lots of ideas put forward over the years how to make the game more fun and less about time/money spent.. |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
|
Posted - 2009.12.04 08:22:00 -
[103]
Archology and hacking was moved from specialized trades solely to beeing main stream trades like salvaging and mining.
It only made sense to tune the skill reqs to be inline with that.
EvE need more basic trades, so IMHO that was a good move.
What is needed now is adding depth to these professions (skill wise), just like mining.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.04 11:41:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Hannydue Let us skill train at +200% or maybe buy skills :)
Not clear whether this is sarcasm or not, but in case you are serious this sentence of yours greatly kills any point you might have wanted to make...
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.04 11:47:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Qual EvE need more basic trades, so IMHO that was a good move.
What is needed now is adding depth to these professions (skill wise), just like mining.
I agree with both sentences. The problem is that the current change takes care only of half of what you said, basically removing the "profession" tag from the profession.
Now, if CCP have planned for Dominion 1.1 or 1.2 to add depth to the professions, this change is certainly for the best. If, as I fear, they do not, or if it is something like "maybe", "it's on the radar", "soon", etc..., the only sure effect is the disappearance of three mini-professions.
|
EnilToor
|
Posted - 2009.12.11 04:00:00 -
[106]
The below quoted is why I quit SWG, one doctor charcter and one trying to grind and maybe get Jedi character which probably would have went bounty hunter after a while. Sony ruined SWG and made it so newer players didnt have to grind as hard. WOW does the same thing and now EVE is following suit... why? easy = $$$$ they want the kids because its big business.
do you honestly think they care if a handful of us older users would like it or not? for every one of us lost they would gain 5 under 16 (not bashing just making a marketing statement) game players. Why do you think they did the PS addition for faction warefare?
if you want to kill a frog you slowly boil water and the front will never jump out of the pot, verses dumping it into boiling water. WHY would a major MMPOG boil the water when they can slowly simmer players while buidling a new player base? EVERY major game has done this... UO, Jumpgate, SWG, everquest.. WOW. and it give it time EVE will join those ranks as well.
just my opinion...
Originally by: Isurus Paucus Ok, lets clarify something: "dumbing down" is not a catch-all term you can just use to describe any change you disagree with. Seriously, it has very specific connotations.
Dumbing down would be SWG ditching the complex crafting system they had in place originally so that player skill and putting the effort into gathering all the best materials was no longer relevant. Whole swaths of player planning and interaction disappeared along with uniqueness of produced goods.
Lowering the access requirements to something, but not making that something easier to actually use effectively is NOT dumbing down. Sure, you may have quibbles with this potentially removing barriers and reducing character variation overall, but that's a different argument.
Even further, the skill barriers being lowered still have value in themselves. It is still worthwhile to most of those skills to 4 or 5 as that training itself incurs some benefit. The variation isn't actually lost. If anything, it's increased as players will not be forced to train those skills to 5 simply to gain access to something else. Rather than decreasing variation, it will increase it. Going to 5 will be a personal choice rather than a requirement.
That said, for CCP to do this across the board (eg the hyperbolic lowering titans to requiring frig 3) would kill the key game appeal of long-term goals and planning. HOWEVER, the skills being lowered don't really fit into that class of skill as it's all stuff that is considered 'common usage.' And besides, slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy and for the most part, a non-starter.
Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with all of the changes, nor am I concerning myself with the impact of easy-access scout alts. Those are completely seperate arguments from whether or not the game is being "dumbed down" by the changes.
|
Qui Shon
|
Posted - 2009.12.11 11:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Hannydue CCP wants new players, alot of new players and not 150,000 players with 2 or 3 accounts. The way I see it interest in this game is pretty much flatlined even after the last few expantions. If CCP wants to bring in the masses they are going to have to increase the skill traning times in some ways and they know it. most people are turned right off the the games skill treadmill and grindtastic gameplay. so yeah so called dumbing down will continue and it should. Big time.
Heh. I said as much in another thread. That it is my fear that the dumbing down will continue, patch after patch. That CCP wants to abandon the long term appeal of at least some complexity, for "short term player" increase (the console tards). Which is likely, as the creators probably no longer love their product, but gaze hungrily upon its perceived economic potential. Which is what all businesses do, after a while.
So agreeing with the last poster here.
Off topic, but a quick fix for w-space exploration: Decrease sig strenghts accross the board, remove sig id's. It'll go back to being a huge pain in the ass, meaning I personally won't be able to scan down (id everything, not pin everything) 10+ w-systems in one sitting anymore. It'll make the easy street for large corps less easy, as scanner co-operation functionality is reduced a notch. Possibly meaning we won't see larger and larger w-space corps eventually dominating smaller ones, which is where we're headed currently. And ffs, drop the W-space map statistics from the API!!
|
Wayward Daughter
Swords of the Righteous
|
Posted - 2009.12.11 22:19:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Wayward Daughter on 11/12/2009 22:20:22
Originally by: Doomed Predator 3/4 of those skills which had their prerequisite level lowered are a must to train to lvl 5 anyway. Quit *****ing.
THis.
The only thing I can see that is an extraneous skill among those listed is Survey. Getting it to 5 (versus the current requirement of 3) in the past for the mini-profession skills probably seemed like a real bother to the people who got it. Hell, I think it's a waste to have to get it to 3 to train Salvaging. Everything else listed there (Science, Engineering, Electronics, Electronics Upgrades, etc.) are "core" skills that you ought to get up anyway.
|
Space Wanderer
|
Posted - 2009.12.12 18:08:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 12/12/2009 18:08:38
Originally by: Qui Shon Off topic, but a quick fix for w-space exploration: Decrease sig strenghts accross the board, remove sig id's.
I slightly disagree with this. Not that scanning shouldn't be made more difficult, but the method should be a bit subtler, I think.
1) decreasing sig strength? Yes, up to a certain point, but it's not easy to carry it too far. Do not forget that the current scanning mechanism gives a covop only 50% more scanning power compared to unbonused ships. If they just halved the site sizes they actually would make all the top-end sites unfindable by ANYBODY... That's a very fine line to tread, and I have got the impression that the code itself is not easily manageable in that respect.
2) Removing scan ids? I am not fond of this suggestion, simply because it doesn't make sense gamewise. Each probe CAN distinguish different signatures (otherwise they wouldn't be able to assemble them to give you a combined reading). It is definitely stupid design scanning system where the user interface does not give you access to what the porbes already do automatically. Restricting the ability to specific skill/equipment? I have no problem with that. Removing the ability altogether, but leave it into the probes? That sounds silly. Removing the abiity to distinguish signatures ALSO from probes, so that you have only spheres and you have to guess what signal is what? Well, THAT would be interesting. But a serious change in design, and I doubt it's something the devs would consider.
Now, to make scanning more complex I have another couple of suggestions. 1) Make contacts below a certain strength undetectable. No more 100% certainty in what is around. 2) Have signatures below a certain signal strength COLLAPSE on each other and show up as a single signature located in the middlepoint.
I think that what might make scanning more entertaining is adding a bit more uncertainty in what you are doing, without resorting to the old-fashioned non-deterministic timesink.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |