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Rb Chua
Caldari More-Cowbell
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Posted - 2009.12.02 09:30:00 -
[1]
1. Can someone explain that skill. 2. And also explain why i need or don't need it to level 5.
thank you :)
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Millie Clode
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Posted - 2009.12.02 09:42:00 -
[2]
If you fly without tactical shield manipulation, there is a chance that when your shield drops below 25% HP you will start taking residual armour damage. Each level of TSM reduces that by 5%, so at level 3 you wont start taking armour damage until you hit 10% shield HP remaining and at level 5 they will have to totally remove your shield to get to your armour.
Also, you need the skill to level 4 to gain access to tech 2 invulnerability fields.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.03 02:33:00 -
[3]
Also worth noting is that on a passive shield ship, it works against you not for you.
Say your at 25% and below shields and take a 600 damge hit. If you dont have the skill, some will come off your armor so this sounds bad.
Say you have 10,000 shields and your at 10% shields, ie 1000 shield left. If take 600 damage on tact 5 skill, you take full 600 off the shields, while if tact 0 skill, you take some against your shields, some vs your armor. Given that shields best about 32%, the skill works against the passive tanker by lowering your shields faster into slower shield regen. In the short term you save getting scratches on the armor, in the longer term it will kill your ship quicker.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.03 07:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer Also worth noting is that on a passive shield ship, it works against you not for you.
1) The skill gives access to T2 hardeners, that's hardly "working against you". 2) If you're passive shield tanking, your tank is broken by the time this skill would take effect. At that point you should be warping out already. 3) The effect is minimal. The recharge curve drops once below 33%, but not so fast you're gonna see any real difference in recharge rate after a full hit or a divided hit.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.03 08:55:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer Also worth noting is that on a passive shield ship, it works against you not for you.
Say your at 25% and below shields and take a 600 damge hit. If you dont have the skill, some will come off your armor so this sounds bad. ...
i'd rather have damage on my hardened regenerating shields, then squishy have-to-repair armor.
OP: effects of damage bleeding through shields to armor are minimal. Tactical Manipulation is more important for being able to fit T2 active shield resists (at skill level 4). there is not much worth in improving past that.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2009.12.03 09:57:00 -
[6]
Aren't invulns active? If you only use passive recharge then it works against you. Granted, I can't see somebody that specialized, but you never know.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 10:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Aren't invulns active? If you only use passive recharge then it works against you. Granted, I can't see somebody that specialized, but you never know.
hardners have got nothing to do with shield recharge rate
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:27:00 -
[8]
I tend to use shield resist amps in cap sucking places - ie where invul and active shield hardners dont work as they use cap.
A good passive resist amp like pithum type a's with skills even outperform an active T2 hardner with over 55% resistance boost.
So back to the above. If passive shield tanking, real passive shield tanking (not this 'I'll use cap to passive shield tank') with no cap use, tactical shield manipulation will help kill your ship quicker. In some places you can find the npc's volley large damage where your passive shield tank can survive the sustained dps, but where the volleys are big enough to give trouble. Situations like this the tact skill works against. Reqs on the pithum a-type resist amps are low, ie dont need the tact skill so if go this way its not a useful skill to train, its actually bad to train.
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Jainia Soltella
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Posted - 2009.12.03 23:10:00 -
[9]
If the volleys are enough to insta-pop your shields, your tank is inadequate and you'll need to warp out and fit more of a buffer anyway. Not having TSM isn't going to save you, it's just going to eat the armor & hull out from under you. Faction/deadspace gear helps to increase the damage tanked with lower requirements than T2, but it isn't practical in many circumstances.
OP: Train it to 4 for the T2 hardeners. No practical need to take it to 5 anymore. (Used to be required for Capital shield boosters, changed right after one of my cap alts finished TSM )
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.04 00:12:00 -
[10]
Around 10k shields with good reists and quicker recharge works well on several ships for me. Even with 10k shields you can get volley damage with heavy hits which can cause problems. Passive shields work on the higher your shield (up to about 32%) the quicker they recharge so when you get down to where tactical shield manipulation moves all damage to shield and none to armor - this hurts your passive tanking more. It you have a little bleed through to armor damage while keeping your shield % higher, your shields recharge quicker and will regularly survive where a high tact skill will lower your shields enough to kill you. Your still doing damage so you can often get over this 'bump' and reduce dps to where your shields regen faster than the dps again.
Your only looking at a small difference of roughly +1 battleship hammering away at you, but that difference is still quite sizable by having a low tact skill vs higher. Yes you can drop resists for more shield volume but that also increases the sig making you easier to hit - not great for say a T2 cruiser which your moving to reduce damage. Less resists for bigger shield often gives less effective shield, not more. Its not really any problem except if have loaded wrong resists (like forgot to change them for mission - maybe helping another out) or like blockade lvl 4 with bloods where get cap drain and sometimes get all the battleships of one type so can destroy the trigger getting 2 waves of up to like dozen battleships + change. If you haven't passively tanked dozen battleships plus change - have you really been passively tanking yet? Most I've done so far was 17 battleships plus change without remote (shield/cap transfers) support. More you push the limit, the more you push for every little bit of advantage and low or no tact skill gives better passive tanking than high tact skill. Comes down to do you passive tank with no cap use (for neuts etc like lvl 5's have) or active tank with hardners and invuln's? Pasive tank tact skill = bad, active tank and tact skill for T2 hardners = good.
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Hooded Hauler
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Posted - 2009.12.04 00:13:00 -
[11]
The argument that you should allow yourself to take armor damage as it boosts the amount that your shield is tanking is just lol....
I mean...seriously? Even if your shield appears to be holding at 20%, you will still die to leakage damage
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.04 02:52:00 -
[12]
Have you passive tanked a dozen or more battleships + change? Where you have had your shields drop into the bleed damage to armor and survive?
Sounds like you haven't. Low or no tact skill will give a small benefit - about enough to tank 1 more battleship worth. If being able to tank 'more' is something to laugh about you really should hull tank more often.
Your making an assumption (false) that if your taking some bleed damage on your armor it will kill you. I've had armor damage from bleed damage over a dozen times while passively tanking and the ship survived - never have I lost a ship to bleed damage. If you take likes of a battleship passiely tanked (eg the navy apoc before they nerfed its recharge from 2500 -> 3390 secs) it has base armor roughly 10k and somehow your thinking you will die from bleed damage on this before your shields drops???? If you believe this, I've got a nice bookmark I can sell to you for 100 mil ...
Even the ishtar being passive tanked, you will have the shields drop 1st before you will die from bleed damage (unless your afk and not shooting back) and its <2k armor! Low or no Tact skill will aid passive tanking while tact skill will aid active tanking. Sure bleed damage will require doing the odd repairs but this is not very often. Bleed damage wont kill you, but it will keep your shield % higher and higher % gives faster regen - ie gets you out of trouble/danger faster. Ideally you want to keep your shield % above 32% (at peak regen or above) where tact skill doesn't matter.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.04 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer stuff
Irdia Freelancer, you seem to rely an awfull lot on your 'superior' experience and anecdotal 'evidence'. I'd love to see a bit less words and a bit more numbers though. Especially the phrase "about enough to tank 1 more battleship worth" gives the impression that this issue can be discussed in a quantifiable way.
I don't have any exact numbers, but I can explain my reasoning:
When TSM kicks in, your tanks is already broken. You are receiving more damage than you can tank. At that point there are two options: 1) You reduce the incoming damage by destroying enemy ships. 2) You're screwed. You can't tank the damage and can't reduce it.
There's a thin line between the two; between being able to reduce the damage just in time and being screwed. What you're saying is that having TSM moves the line so that you'll be screwed in more cases. What I'm saying is that the line doesn't move by much and that the vast majority of cases will be not even close to the line - either fully in (1) or fully in (2) - and that thus the effect of TSM on survivability will be negligible.
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Welikealts
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Posted - 2009.12.04 14:54:00 -
[14]
I thought it was proven on these boards that armor bleeding damage is in addition to shield damage, and not a 'redirection' effect. I could be wrong though... |
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.04 19:14:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 04/12/2009 19:14:36
Originally by: Welikealts I thought it was proven on these boards that armor bleeding damage is in addition to shield damage, and not a 'redirection' effect. I could be wrong though...
It's been discussed at length, but never proven to be one way or another. There have even been references to alleged dev posts, which as far as I know noone seems to be able to find anymore.
If it were to be additional damage, that would be the nail in the coffin for this "TSM is bad for you" myth.
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Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Aren't invulns active? If you only use passive recharge then it works against you. Granted, I can't see somebody that specialized, but you never know.
I used to use a Drake, and now a Nighthawk in L4s, and I use shield recharge, and active hardeners. I can omni-tank any mission and even walk away for hours the tank is so good. Sure, its an expensive faction setup, but the T2 version of that ship is very sturdy as well. Active resist and "passive" recharge works great. |
Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Estel Arador
When TSM kicks in, your tanks is already broken. You are receiving more damage than you can tank. At that point there are two options: 1) You reduce the incoming damage by destroying enemy ships. 2) You're screwed. You can't tank the damage and can't reduce it.
I'm not arguing for the person you're arguing against, but I've several times hit 10% shields or less, but only briefly while I finished off the big damage dealers, to have it recover up eventually to 90%+ |
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Draulin
Originally by: Estel Arador
When TSM kicks in, your tanks is already broken. You are receiving more damage than you can tank. At that point there are two options: 1) You reduce the incoming damage by destroying enemy ships. 2) You're screwed. You can't tank the damage and can't reduce it.
I'm not arguing for the person you're arguing against, but I've several times hit 10% shields or less, but only briefly while I finished off the big damage dealers, to have it recover up eventually to 90%+
Me too. That would be option 1 I listed. The question is, did TSM make such a difference in shield regeneration in that case that you wouldn't have made it if you had had it?
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2009.12.05 21:40:00 -
[19]
I've thought this out several times and I still think :
If 2 characters are EXACTLY THE SAME , no matter the race , armor or shield tank , And they both are breaking each others tank with the same DPS , The first guy with armor damage will lose his ship .
If your both tanking at optimal regen , 90% lets say , (again ,EXACTLY THE SAME) , And one guy is taking bleed through , while the other one isn't ..... I wanna be the guy with no bleed through
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.05 22:36:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/12/2009 22:38:16
Oh no, not again.
Scenario: You are getting hammered by a dozen ships, and your shield is dropping. You fight back, and destroy half of the ships, but your shield is now at 25% but not dropping as fast (less enemies = less incoming damage). You keep fighting. You are down to the last 3 ships and your shield is at 10%. You keep fighting. You are down to the last ship, and your shield is hovering just above 0%.
Without TSM 5: Suddenly your armor and hull starts disappearing, and you explode.
With TSM 5: You destroy the last ship, without taking any armor or hull damage.
If you never shield tank with 0% to 5% shield, you will never experience the advantage of TSM. However if you do, you will find TSM 5 invaluable as a shield tanker.
However, I wouldn't make it a priority. TSM 4 allows the use of T2 hardeners and greatly reduces bleed-through above 5%, which if often good enough for many.
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Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.06 22:32:00 -
[21]
I'm completely happy with TSM at level IV. I've never taken armor damage as far as I know and have not lost a ship related to anything but an unresponsive server. I hadn't tanked for Sansha and clicking to warp for half a minute resulted in nothing, and no scram. So I don't know if I'll ever make TSM one of my level V skills, but I think the ability to use T2 Invulnerability Fields is worth it, and not having armor damage bleed hasn't hurt me. Whether its better that way or not, you can keep debating! |
Phyllobates Terribilis
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Posted - 2009.12.08 16:39:00 -
[22]
I thought I understood TSM, maybe I don't. But here's what the advantage seems like to me. If you have even 1 point of shield and TSM V, you take no armor bleedthrough damage. That means if your regen rate or your shield boost timing allows you to get even 1 point between hits, you're going to make it ok. I could EASILY be wrong, but this seems to be the upshot of the whole thing. |
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.08 17:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Phyllobates Terribilis I thought I understood TSM, maybe I don't. But here's what the advantage seems like to me. If you have even 1 point of shield and TSM V, you take no armor bleedthrough damage. That means if your regen rate or your shield boost timing allows you to get even 1 point between hits, you're going to make it ok. I could EASILY be wrong, but this seems to be the upshot of the whole thing.
Yeah, you're easily completely wrong. How the skill works is explained here.
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Laiyna
Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.08 17:45:00 -
[24]
Point of fact:
- Bleed Through Damage is bonus damage on the armor, you still get the FULL shield damage and the armor bleed through damage ontop of it.
Still I would not train it to 5, but to 4 for invul tech2, if you are in the last 5% of shield, you gone take armor damage anyway :)
Laiyna
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Laiyna Point of fact:
- Bleed Through Damage is bonus damage on the armor, you still get the FULL shield damage and the armor bleed through damage ontop of it.
Do you have a link to a dev post or player test? I've seen this 'fact' posted countless of times, as well as its exact opposite. Always without any evidence.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.08 23:40:00 -
[26]
A link to a dev post would be real nice.
Its even possible the devs dont know ... 'working as intended' and all
I've had passive shield ships run in the < 25% on a large number of ocassions, getting bleed through with low tact skill and getting a bit of armor damage. Since they are amarr ships they tend to have good 'armor resists' so the bleed damage is tiny from the incoming damage types (50% resist vs EM armor on battleships). The damage numbers you get dont look any different when your in the < 25% shield zone so I dont favour the 'extra damage' theory from bleed through. If not taking extra damage, then we are back to the passive shields favour low tact skill. Then again its difficult to quantify and just because the damage numbers similar, it doesn't mean they were in fact.
Additional damage vs spread damage across sheild/armor? Its the old question and I've still not seen any confirmation either way. Is a nice link for some explanations you put there.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.09 01:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 09/12/2009 01:17:01 Ah there you are Irdia Freelancer, I kinda missed you since I last replied to you in this thread 4 days ago. I did post a request for more information (directed at you) so I more or less expected a reply, but so far I haven't seen any.
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Abelard Nightbringer
New Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.09 03:06:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Abelard Nightbringer on 09/12/2009 03:10:37
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer stuff
stuff stuff
i actually realized this stuff myself the other day, i was like wtf... dumb.
In theory, the argument for TSM hurting a passive shield tank is correct. The point is that when u bleed some damage into armor, your passive tank is still recharging. It can very easily buy you another few more precious seconds in a situation, just having that extra shield recharge. Regardless of whether or not you can tank an entire 'nother battleship, you WILL survive longer since the amount of time you are taken from 30% to 0% shield is increased, thus giving more HP.
Take into consideration my Drake with 400hp/s peak recharge. at the 20-25% mark, id still be getting what, 200 at a minimum? can pretty easily get another 1000 hp before you entire shield tank died.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.09 05:02:00 -
[29]
If working on the ragged edge and no extra damage is taken from bleed damage, then on something the size of battleship or a drake is probably about 1 npc battleship worth of dmaage diffeence between tact 5 skill and no tact skill.
Lets be honest, npc's dont hit very hard - even battleship npc's. a drkae or battleship can run around 20k shields or higher resists with less shields (and sig size). Many of the npc battleships deal less than 100 dps with some dropping below 80 dps (eve-survial site). Given low damage like this, it doesn't take much if on the ragged edge with tact 5 skill vs another battleship with tact 0 (assuming no additional bleed damage). My pb with passive tanking is 17 battleships + change and I expect more is possible as my skills aren't maxed yet.
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Phyllobates Terribilis
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Posted - 2009.12.09 07:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Phyllobates Terribilis on 09/12/2009 07:17:26
Originally by: Estel Arador Yeah, you're easily completely wrong.
Wow. Even admitting my own ignorance isn't enough. What a ****. |
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