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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.09 19:07:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 09/12/2009 19:08:14
Originally by: Phyllobates Terribilis Wow. Even admitting my own ignorance isn't enough. What a ****.
Instead of admitting your ignorance you should've just posted nothing, or should've made an effort to relieve your ignorance by doing some basic research and then contribute something useful. The discussion here is not what the skill does (that's been established beyond any doubt) but whether or not it's effect is useful (which is open to debate).
Originally by: Abelard Nightbringer Take into consideration my Drake with 400hp/s peak recharge. at the 20-25% mark, id still be getting what, 200 at a minimum? can pretty easily get another 1000 hp before you entire shield tank died.
Sure, but that applies to both with and without TSM. The question is, how much extra recharge would you get by having some damage diverted to the armour?
Irdia Freelancer, your answer doesn't answer that question. Your opinion is that it would be enough to tank an extra BS, but I think that's a bit much. Tanking 80 HP/s more at low shields seems unreasonable. What would the recharge be with TSM?
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.10 02:39:00 -
[32]
Assuming no extra damage from bleed damage, what % of the damage bleeds through?
Its not like 50/50 and appears more like 90% to shields and 10% to bleed from what I've seen.
Take any passive tank then, the amount it can tank with tact 5 skill without the shields dropping. The tact 0 skilled of the same should tank the amount of bleed damage more to shields.
Eg say it is 90% shields and 10% armor bleed, then the tact 0 passive tank should tank around 10% more. if taking 100 damage to shields on tact 5 skill (below 25% shields) then should be able to take 100 dmage to shields on tact 0 skill, plus the bleed damage (which is 11.11% more). Take a passive tank that can tank 2000 dps and you consider my claim of another battleship of 80 dps is optimistic? 2000 * 11.11% = 222 dps just for illustration. If bleed damage is more than 10%, the amount more it tanks grows, if less than 10%, it shrinks.
If you make assumption that bleed damage is not additional damage, then passive tanking benefits from low tact skill in a useful way. It can still be used in a active shield tank, just you take armor damage in your buffer while basically giving extra shield tank. A DCU also works similar when shields fail etc and your into hull tanking. Many swear by DCU's, yet to claim using low tact skill in similar way some complain?
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AxeMan2
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Posted - 2009.12.10 09:52:00 -
[33]
The damage isnt "additional" , but its transfered to a lesser point of resists , which = more HP lost. When your shield is ALL gone , half your armor is all gone as well.
Bleed Through = Tank Broken Maximum Bleed Through = Dead Sooner
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.10 12:29:00 -
[34]
Every time I have had bleed though damage we are talking 1 to 3 hitpoints and at sub 15% shields. Worrying about bleed though or trying to use bleed though to tank longer is pointless. Using bleed though will not make you tank longer.
Irdia Freelancer said ôAssuming no extra damage from bleed damage, what % of the damage bleeds through?ö In my experience 1% give or take 0.5% bleeds through. That is not 1% per hit. That is 1% when you suffer from bleed though which will not happen every shot. Not long back I spent 5 ish mins at under 20% shields but above 5% after the battle my armour was on 99%. I think I even took a screenshot. Bleed though does not appear to happen every shot.
Irdia Freelancer said ôa passive tank that can tank 2000 dps and you consider my claim of another battleship of 80 dps is optimistic? 2000 * 11.11% = 222 dps just for illustrationö But the point bleed though kicks in your tank is already broken and your tank HP regen is getting weaker by the second. You are not going to be able to tank another BS due to bleed though.
Irdia Freelancer said ôIf you make assumption that bleed damage is not additional damage, then passive tanking benefits from low tact skill in a useful way.ö But a low tact skill means T1 hardeners so youÆre taking way more damage. Far more damage than any bleed though damage will negate. As you need tact lvl 4 for T2 hardeners this discussion should really be what is the difference between Tactical level 4 and level 5. The answer to that is almost none existent with no real benefit. A pilot with tact 4 can tank far more then a pilot with tact 1
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.10 19:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer If you make assumption that bleed damage is not additional damage, then passive tanking benefits from low tact skill in a useful way.
Only in the specific case where you wouldn't be able to reduce the incoming damage if you had TSM and where you wouldn't die anyway with or without TSM. That is, if the tiny bit less shield damage you take due to not having TSM makes the difference between surviving and dying. It really is a highly theoretical excercise you're undertaking.
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer A DCU also works similar when shields fail etc and your into hull tanking.
No it does not. A DCU doubles your effective hull HP and makes sense to have if you expect to get into hull at some point (for instance if you're pvping). TSM does nothing of the sort. Also for PvE, DCUs make very little sense (they could make sense if you're armour tanking and already have many resist mods, as the DCU bonus is not subject to stacking penalty).
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2009.12.11 05:07:00 -
[36]
Take into consideration most shield tankers (Especially passive shield tankers) will have shield resists, when you bleed through to armor you're in essence taking more damage to armor then you would to shield.
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willdieinabout24hrs
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Posted - 2009.12.11 20:35:00 -
[37]
Hooray! Huzzah! He's here, he's here! Its Estel Arador, Editor-in-Chief of EVE. Hey! Why don't you go into each and every thread on the forum and tell us all what we're doing wrong. We desperately need you to tell us what we should be doing and what we shouldn't be doing. Tell us Dear Leader, we beg you! |
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.12 12:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: willdieinabout24hrs Hooray! Huzzah! He's here, he's here! Its Estel Arador, Editor-in-Chief of EVE. Hey! Why don't you go into each and every thread on the forum and tell us all what we're doing wrong. We desperately need you to tell us what we should be doing and what we shouldn't be doing. Tell us Dear Leader, we beg you!
Ooh, I have a fan A little misguided though, everyone knows Akita T is the Editor-in-Chief of the forums
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Zanaraxtarus
Knowledge Stick Station
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Posted - 2009.12.14 11:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Draulin Sure, its an expensive faction setup,
/mouth waters
Originally by: Draulin Active resist and "passive" recharge works great.
/drool
So, where do you run your missions?? yarr!
--Zan-- |
Garresh
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.12.14 19:34:00 -
[40]
When I play paintball, I make sure not to wear a mask so that my visor won't get covered in paint from an accidental shot to the face. That way, my vision stays clear no matter what happens, and my situational awareness never shuts down!
Seriously, though. I've been ****ing around in w-space for a while now in a pure-passive cane. The bleed through doesn't help you, and access to Invulns is more than worth the "loss" of tanking ability. Not to mention bleed through is still damage getting through, and you should know to run when your tank is broken rather than letting it dwindle and linger on while your armor is falling apart.
When passive shield tanks fail, they fail spectacularly. All at once. No saving you...no mitigation...no booster/repper cycles to give your hull a little more time. When they go down, you're dead unless you make it out in seconds. This is a fact of passive shield tanks. Stop trying to evade the weaknesses of your tank, and fit a ****ing invuln field like the rest of us so you never have to reach that point.
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Qalix
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Posted - 2009.12.14 19:58:00 -
[41]
im coming in last. but i am confused. the link earlier posted leads to define TSM:
Quote: What Tactical Shield Manipulation does is lowering the point where you can get damage bleeding through. At level 1 itÆs at 20%, level 2 15%, level 3 10%, level 4 5%, and level 5 0% - meaning youÆll never get armour damage before your shields are completely down.
does that mean if i have 1point of shield point i dont take armor damage? the post with link say no but the link seems like it saying that. please can someone to explain? im still new to eve. sorry im dumb! |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.14 20:20:00 -
[42]
You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5 ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.14 20:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 14/12/2009 20:21:37
Originally by: Qalix im coming in last. but i am confused. the link earlier posted leads to define TSM:
Quote: What Tactical Shield Manipulation does is lowering the point where you can get damage bleeding through. At level 1 itÆs at 20%, level 2 15%, level 3 10%, level 4 5%, and level 5 0% - meaning youÆll never get armour damage before your shields are completely down.
does that mean if i have 1point of shield point i dont take armor damage? the post with link say no but the link seems like it saying that. please can someone to explain? im still new to eve. sorry im dumb!
Without Tactical Shield Manipulation you may get damage to your armour instead of your shields when your shields are below 25%. With Tactical Shield Manipulation to V you won't get any armour damage until your shields are reduced to 0. If you have a few HP left in your shields and receive damage, the damage will first be applied to your shields. Any damage not applied to your shields will be applied to your armour. There is no magic making damage disappear.
Originally by: Pottsey You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5
You don't (or you shouldn't. File a bug report if you do.)
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Estel Arador Sanctimonius drivel
What I find particularly distasteful about you is not your technical knowledge; it's this holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude that you show in every one of your posts in this and other sections, yet you're sweeter than jam in your own JC service thread. It's sickening.
I and I'm sure others find it absolutely despicable. For example, the person above me who put forward what s/he perceived to be correct (though they attached the caviat that they might well be wrong), and you still acted like a complete jerk.
What a ****, to mirror that person's comments. ---
Even though you might disagree with what I say, that doesn't automatically make me a troll. |
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:50:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Captain Pompous What I find particularly distasteful about you is not your technical knowledge; it's this holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude that you show in every one of your posts in this and other sections, yet you're sweeter than jam in your own JC service thread. It's sickening.
I and I'm sure others find it absolutely despicable.
Thanks for the compliment on my technical knowledge
Many people consider it normal that there is a difference between behaviour ingame and behaviour on the forums. The most common form of this is probably that evil persons ingame (pirates/scammers/etc) are making helpful posts on the forums. You could see me as the opposite - won't hurt a fly ingame but am an utter ass on the forums. I think scamming is despicable, but I recognise the scammer's right to scam within the game rules. In the same way my holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude might be dispicable, but you'll have to live with it as long I stick to the forum rules (and I generally do).
Of course my holier-than-thou and dismissive posts often do contain some actual information. I'll happily trash a poster and his post while at the same time answering his question. And I do try to adjust to the target audience; in the New Citizens section I'm often (slightly) nicer than in this section. (Perhaps that would be a nice thing to research sometime - I'm actually trained to assess politeness in texts and conversations, though it's probably not very scientific to do research into one's own posts.)
Originally by: Captain Pompous For example, the person above me who put forward what s/he perceived to be correct (though they attached the caviat that they might well be wrong), and you still acted like a complete jerk.
Posting wrong and un-researched theories confuses other readers (as is evident from post 41). Some basic research by the poster would've prevented that from happening.
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station rat
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Posted - 2009.12.16 22:22:00 -
[46]
Edited by: station rat on 16/12/2009 22:23:25
Originally by: Qalix
does that mean if i have 1point of shield point i dont take armor damage? the post with link say no but the link seems like it saying that. please can someone to explain? im still new to eve. sorry im dumb!
Bleed through means that damage passes through the shields and hits the armor for damage. TSM V means that there is 0% chance that damage will pass through the shield and hit your armor.
HOWEVER, if the incoming damage is more than the HP you left in your shields, the remaining damage is applied to your armor.
So if you have 1 hit point left on your shields and you have TSM V and you receive 10 damage, then 1 point would be absorbed by your shields and the remaining 9 would hit your armor.
Without TSM V, there is a percentage chance that incoming damage can partially or completely bypass your remaining shield HP and reduce your armor HP. Granted this only applies when your shields are below 25% total strength, which means that your tank has been broken and you need to:
1. turn on a booster (which you should have done when you went below 32-33%) 2. warp away (you should have already aligned by now) 3. Hope you can kill enough DPS in the last 25% to compensate for lower recharge rate 4. bend over and kiss your ass...err...ship goodbye
Essentially TSM V allows a smart shield tanking capsuleer an additional buffer to GTFO of dodge before they start receiving damage to Armor and hull. This will hopefully allow your ship to escape before you pop.
Quote: You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5.
You may be lagging and the display is not correct. Frankly, if you are receiving ANY damage to your armor as a shield tanker you are over matched and with a single scrambling frig a wreck for you to come back and salvage (if you're lucky).
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Jugger Takashi
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.17 02:23:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Pottsey You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5
They fixed that, didnt they ? Got lvl5 and havent seen any bleeds yet. Might be that im all out of blood ;P
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.17 07:38:00 -
[48]
I have been getting bleed through in the past 6 months. But only at low 5% to 15% shields and only when I stay at that amount a while. It was not lag or a display bug as I had to repair it, if it was a display bug my shields would have had to be at 0% and I would have died or at least taken more than 1% amour damage.
It could be a bug, I need to do some more testing. If I get chance I will pop on the test server and see if I can get it to repeat. Either way if it was a bug or not is was so small that bleed though had no impact on combat.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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