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Rb Chua
Caldari More-Cowbell
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Posted - 2009.12.02 09:30:00 -
[1]
1. Can someone explain that skill. 2. And also explain why i need or don't need it to level 5.
thank you :)
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Millie Clode
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Posted - 2009.12.02 09:42:00 -
[2]
If you fly without tactical shield manipulation, there is a chance that when your shield drops below 25% HP you will start taking residual armour damage. Each level of TSM reduces that by 5%, so at level 3 you wont start taking armour damage until you hit 10% shield HP remaining and at level 5 they will have to totally remove your shield to get to your armour.
Also, you need the skill to level 4 to gain access to tech 2 invulnerability fields.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.03 02:33:00 -
[3]
Also worth noting is that on a passive shield ship, it works against you not for you.
Say your at 25% and below shields and take a 600 damge hit. If you dont have the skill, some will come off your armor so this sounds bad.
Say you have 10,000 shields and your at 10% shields, ie 1000 shield left. If take 600 damage on tact 5 skill, you take full 600 off the shields, while if tact 0 skill, you take some against your shields, some vs your armor. Given that shields best about 32%, the skill works against the passive tanker by lowering your shields faster into slower shield regen. In the short term you save getting scratches on the armor, in the longer term it will kill your ship quicker.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.03 07:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer Also worth noting is that on a passive shield ship, it works against you not for you.
1) The skill gives access to T2 hardeners, that's hardly "working against you". 2) If you're passive shield tanking, your tank is broken by the time this skill would take effect. At that point you should be warping out already. 3) The effect is minimal. The recharge curve drops once below 33%, but not so fast you're gonna see any real difference in recharge rate after a full hit or a divided hit.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.03 08:55:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer Also worth noting is that on a passive shield ship, it works against you not for you.
Say your at 25% and below shields and take a 600 damge hit. If you dont have the skill, some will come off your armor so this sounds bad. ...
i'd rather have damage on my hardened regenerating shields, then squishy have-to-repair armor.
OP: effects of damage bleeding through shields to armor are minimal. Tactical Manipulation is more important for being able to fit T2 active shield resists (at skill level 4). there is not much worth in improving past that.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2009.12.03 09:57:00 -
[6]
Aren't invulns active? If you only use passive recharge then it works against you. Granted, I can't see somebody that specialized, but you never know.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 10:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Aren't invulns active? If you only use passive recharge then it works against you. Granted, I can't see somebody that specialized, but you never know.
hardners have got nothing to do with shield recharge rate
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:27:00 -
[8]
I tend to use shield resist amps in cap sucking places - ie where invul and active shield hardners dont work as they use cap.
A good passive resist amp like pithum type a's with skills even outperform an active T2 hardner with over 55% resistance boost.
So back to the above. If passive shield tanking, real passive shield tanking (not this 'I'll use cap to passive shield tank') with no cap use, tactical shield manipulation will help kill your ship quicker. In some places you can find the npc's volley large damage where your passive shield tank can survive the sustained dps, but where the volleys are big enough to give trouble. Situations like this the tact skill works against. Reqs on the pithum a-type resist amps are low, ie dont need the tact skill so if go this way its not a useful skill to train, its actually bad to train.
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Jainia Soltella
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Posted - 2009.12.03 23:10:00 -
[9]
If the volleys are enough to insta-pop your shields, your tank is inadequate and you'll need to warp out and fit more of a buffer anyway. Not having TSM isn't going to save you, it's just going to eat the armor & hull out from under you. Faction/deadspace gear helps to increase the damage tanked with lower requirements than T2, but it isn't practical in many circumstances.
OP: Train it to 4 for the T2 hardeners. No practical need to take it to 5 anymore. (Used to be required for Capital shield boosters, changed right after one of my cap alts finished TSM )
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.04 00:12:00 -
[10]
Around 10k shields with good reists and quicker recharge works well on several ships for me. Even with 10k shields you can get volley damage with heavy hits which can cause problems. Passive shields work on the higher your shield (up to about 32%) the quicker they recharge so when you get down to where tactical shield manipulation moves all damage to shield and none to armor - this hurts your passive tanking more. It you have a little bleed through to armor damage while keeping your shield % higher, your shields recharge quicker and will regularly survive where a high tact skill will lower your shields enough to kill you. Your still doing damage so you can often get over this 'bump' and reduce dps to where your shields regen faster than the dps again.
Your only looking at a small difference of roughly +1 battleship hammering away at you, but that difference is still quite sizable by having a low tact skill vs higher. Yes you can drop resists for more shield volume but that also increases the sig making you easier to hit - not great for say a T2 cruiser which your moving to reduce damage. Less resists for bigger shield often gives less effective shield, not more. Its not really any problem except if have loaded wrong resists (like forgot to change them for mission - maybe helping another out) or like blockade lvl 4 with bloods where get cap drain and sometimes get all the battleships of one type so can destroy the trigger getting 2 waves of up to like dozen battleships + change. If you haven't passively tanked dozen battleships plus change - have you really been passively tanking yet? Most I've done so far was 17 battleships plus change without remote (shield/cap transfers) support. More you push the limit, the more you push for every little bit of advantage and low or no tact skill gives better passive tanking than high tact skill. Comes down to do you passive tank with no cap use (for neuts etc like lvl 5's have) or active tank with hardners and invuln's? Pasive tank tact skill = bad, active tank and tact skill for T2 hardners = good.
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Hooded Hauler
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Posted - 2009.12.04 00:13:00 -
[11]
The argument that you should allow yourself to take armor damage as it boosts the amount that your shield is tanking is just lol....
I mean...seriously? Even if your shield appears to be holding at 20%, you will still die to leakage damage
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.04 02:52:00 -
[12]
Have you passive tanked a dozen or more battleships + change? Where you have had your shields drop into the bleed damage to armor and survive?
Sounds like you haven't. Low or no tact skill will give a small benefit - about enough to tank 1 more battleship worth. If being able to tank 'more' is something to laugh about you really should hull tank more often.
Your making an assumption (false) that if your taking some bleed damage on your armor it will kill you. I've had armor damage from bleed damage over a dozen times while passively tanking and the ship survived - never have I lost a ship to bleed damage. If you take likes of a battleship passiely tanked (eg the navy apoc before they nerfed its recharge from 2500 -> 3390 secs) it has base armor roughly 10k and somehow your thinking you will die from bleed damage on this before your shields drops???? If you believe this, I've got a nice bookmark I can sell to you for 100 mil ...
Even the ishtar being passive tanked, you will have the shields drop 1st before you will die from bleed damage (unless your afk and not shooting back) and its <2k armor! Low or no Tact skill will aid passive tanking while tact skill will aid active tanking. Sure bleed damage will require doing the odd repairs but this is not very often. Bleed damage wont kill you, but it will keep your shield % higher and higher % gives faster regen - ie gets you out of trouble/danger faster. Ideally you want to keep your shield % above 32% (at peak regen or above) where tact skill doesn't matter.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.04 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer stuff
Irdia Freelancer, you seem to rely an awfull lot on your 'superior' experience and anecdotal 'evidence'. I'd love to see a bit less words and a bit more numbers though. Especially the phrase "about enough to tank 1 more battleship worth" gives the impression that this issue can be discussed in a quantifiable way.
I don't have any exact numbers, but I can explain my reasoning:
When TSM kicks in, your tanks is already broken. You are receiving more damage than you can tank. At that point there are two options: 1) You reduce the incoming damage by destroying enemy ships. 2) You're screwed. You can't tank the damage and can't reduce it.
There's a thin line between the two; between being able to reduce the damage just in time and being screwed. What you're saying is that having TSM moves the line so that you'll be screwed in more cases. What I'm saying is that the line doesn't move by much and that the vast majority of cases will be not even close to the line - either fully in (1) or fully in (2) - and that thus the effect of TSM on survivability will be negligible.
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Welikealts
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Posted - 2009.12.04 14:54:00 -
[14]
I thought it was proven on these boards that armor bleeding damage is in addition to shield damage, and not a 'redirection' effect. I could be wrong though... |
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.04 19:14:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 04/12/2009 19:14:36
Originally by: Welikealts I thought it was proven on these boards that armor bleeding damage is in addition to shield damage, and not a 'redirection' effect. I could be wrong though...
It's been discussed at length, but never proven to be one way or another. There have even been references to alleged dev posts, which as far as I know noone seems to be able to find anymore.
If it were to be additional damage, that would be the nail in the coffin for this "TSM is bad for you" myth.
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Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Aren't invulns active? If you only use passive recharge then it works against you. Granted, I can't see somebody that specialized, but you never know.
I used to use a Drake, and now a Nighthawk in L4s, and I use shield recharge, and active hardeners. I can omni-tank any mission and even walk away for hours the tank is so good. Sure, its an expensive faction setup, but the T2 version of that ship is very sturdy as well. Active resist and "passive" recharge works great. |
Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Estel Arador
When TSM kicks in, your tanks is already broken. You are receiving more damage than you can tank. At that point there are two options: 1) You reduce the incoming damage by destroying enemy ships. 2) You're screwed. You can't tank the damage and can't reduce it.
I'm not arguing for the person you're arguing against, but I've several times hit 10% shields or less, but only briefly while I finished off the big damage dealers, to have it recover up eventually to 90%+ |
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Draulin
Originally by: Estel Arador
When TSM kicks in, your tanks is already broken. You are receiving more damage than you can tank. At that point there are two options: 1) You reduce the incoming damage by destroying enemy ships. 2) You're screwed. You can't tank the damage and can't reduce it.
I'm not arguing for the person you're arguing against, but I've several times hit 10% shields or less, but only briefly while I finished off the big damage dealers, to have it recover up eventually to 90%+
Me too. That would be option 1 I listed. The question is, did TSM make such a difference in shield regeneration in that case that you wouldn't have made it if you had had it?
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2009.12.05 21:40:00 -
[19]
I've thought this out several times and I still think :
If 2 characters are EXACTLY THE SAME , no matter the race , armor or shield tank , And they both are breaking each others tank with the same DPS , The first guy with armor damage will lose his ship .
If your both tanking at optimal regen , 90% lets say , (again ,EXACTLY THE SAME) , And one guy is taking bleed through , while the other one isn't ..... I wanna be the guy with no bleed through
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.05 22:36:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/12/2009 22:38:16
Oh no, not again.
Scenario: You are getting hammered by a dozen ships, and your shield is dropping. You fight back, and destroy half of the ships, but your shield is now at 25% but not dropping as fast (less enemies = less incoming damage). You keep fighting. You are down to the last 3 ships and your shield is at 10%. You keep fighting. You are down to the last ship, and your shield is hovering just above 0%.
Without TSM 5: Suddenly your armor and hull starts disappearing, and you explode.
With TSM 5: You destroy the last ship, without taking any armor or hull damage.
If you never shield tank with 0% to 5% shield, you will never experience the advantage of TSM. However if you do, you will find TSM 5 invaluable as a shield tanker.
However, I wouldn't make it a priority. TSM 4 allows the use of T2 hardeners and greatly reduces bleed-through above 5%, which if often good enough for many.
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Draulin
Gallente Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.06 22:32:00 -
[21]
I'm completely happy with TSM at level IV. I've never taken armor damage as far as I know and have not lost a ship related to anything but an unresponsive server. I hadn't tanked for Sansha and clicking to warp for half a minute resulted in nothing, and no scram. So I don't know if I'll ever make TSM one of my level V skills, but I think the ability to use T2 Invulnerability Fields is worth it, and not having armor damage bleed hasn't hurt me. Whether its better that way or not, you can keep debating! |
Phyllobates Terribilis
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Posted - 2009.12.08 16:39:00 -
[22]
I thought I understood TSM, maybe I don't. But here's what the advantage seems like to me. If you have even 1 point of shield and TSM V, you take no armor bleedthrough damage. That means if your regen rate or your shield boost timing allows you to get even 1 point between hits, you're going to make it ok. I could EASILY be wrong, but this seems to be the upshot of the whole thing. |
Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.08 17:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Phyllobates Terribilis I thought I understood TSM, maybe I don't. But here's what the advantage seems like to me. If you have even 1 point of shield and TSM V, you take no armor bleedthrough damage. That means if your regen rate or your shield boost timing allows you to get even 1 point between hits, you're going to make it ok. I could EASILY be wrong, but this seems to be the upshot of the whole thing.
Yeah, you're easily completely wrong. How the skill works is explained here.
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Laiyna
Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.08 17:45:00 -
[24]
Point of fact:
- Bleed Through Damage is bonus damage on the armor, you still get the FULL shield damage and the armor bleed through damage ontop of it.
Still I would not train it to 5, but to 4 for invul tech2, if you are in the last 5% of shield, you gone take armor damage anyway :)
Laiyna
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Laiyna Point of fact:
- Bleed Through Damage is bonus damage on the armor, you still get the FULL shield damage and the armor bleed through damage ontop of it.
Do you have a link to a dev post or player test? I've seen this 'fact' posted countless of times, as well as its exact opposite. Always without any evidence.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.08 23:40:00 -
[26]
A link to a dev post would be real nice.
Its even possible the devs dont know ... 'working as intended' and all
I've had passive shield ships run in the < 25% on a large number of ocassions, getting bleed through with low tact skill and getting a bit of armor damage. Since they are amarr ships they tend to have good 'armor resists' so the bleed damage is tiny from the incoming damage types (50% resist vs EM armor on battleships). The damage numbers you get dont look any different when your in the < 25% shield zone so I dont favour the 'extra damage' theory from bleed through. If not taking extra damage, then we are back to the passive shields favour low tact skill. Then again its difficult to quantify and just because the damage numbers similar, it doesn't mean they were in fact.
Additional damage vs spread damage across sheild/armor? Its the old question and I've still not seen any confirmation either way. Is a nice link for some explanations you put there.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar AFK
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Posted - 2009.12.09 01:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 09/12/2009 01:17:01 Ah there you are Irdia Freelancer, I kinda missed you since I last replied to you in this thread 4 days ago. I did post a request for more information (directed at you) so I more or less expected a reply, but so far I haven't seen any.
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Abelard Nightbringer
New Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.09 03:06:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Abelard Nightbringer on 09/12/2009 03:10:37
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer stuff
stuff stuff
i actually realized this stuff myself the other day, i was like wtf... dumb.
In theory, the argument for TSM hurting a passive shield tank is correct. The point is that when u bleed some damage into armor, your passive tank is still recharging. It can very easily buy you another few more precious seconds in a situation, just having that extra shield recharge. Regardless of whether or not you can tank an entire 'nother battleship, you WILL survive longer since the amount of time you are taken from 30% to 0% shield is increased, thus giving more HP.
Take into consideration my Drake with 400hp/s peak recharge. at the 20-25% mark, id still be getting what, 200 at a minimum? can pretty easily get another 1000 hp before you entire shield tank died.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.09 05:02:00 -
[29]
If working on the ragged edge and no extra damage is taken from bleed damage, then on something the size of battleship or a drake is probably about 1 npc battleship worth of dmaage diffeence between tact 5 skill and no tact skill.
Lets be honest, npc's dont hit very hard - even battleship npc's. a drkae or battleship can run around 20k shields or higher resists with less shields (and sig size). Many of the npc battleships deal less than 100 dps with some dropping below 80 dps (eve-survial site). Given low damage like this, it doesn't take much if on the ragged edge with tact 5 skill vs another battleship with tact 0 (assuming no additional bleed damage). My pb with passive tanking is 17 battleships + change and I expect more is possible as my skills aren't maxed yet.
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Phyllobates Terribilis
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Posted - 2009.12.09 07:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Phyllobates Terribilis on 09/12/2009 07:17:26
Originally by: Estel Arador Yeah, you're easily completely wrong.
Wow. Even admitting my own ignorance isn't enough. What a ****. |
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.09 19:07:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 09/12/2009 19:08:14
Originally by: Phyllobates Terribilis Wow. Even admitting my own ignorance isn't enough. What a ****.
Instead of admitting your ignorance you should've just posted nothing, or should've made an effort to relieve your ignorance by doing some basic research and then contribute something useful. The discussion here is not what the skill does (that's been established beyond any doubt) but whether or not it's effect is useful (which is open to debate).
Originally by: Abelard Nightbringer Take into consideration my Drake with 400hp/s peak recharge. at the 20-25% mark, id still be getting what, 200 at a minimum? can pretty easily get another 1000 hp before you entire shield tank died.
Sure, but that applies to both with and without TSM. The question is, how much extra recharge would you get by having some damage diverted to the armour?
Irdia Freelancer, your answer doesn't answer that question. Your opinion is that it would be enough to tank an extra BS, but I think that's a bit much. Tanking 80 HP/s more at low shields seems unreasonable. What would the recharge be with TSM?
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.12.10 02:39:00 -
[32]
Assuming no extra damage from bleed damage, what % of the damage bleeds through?
Its not like 50/50 and appears more like 90% to shields and 10% to bleed from what I've seen.
Take any passive tank then, the amount it can tank with tact 5 skill without the shields dropping. The tact 0 skilled of the same should tank the amount of bleed damage more to shields.
Eg say it is 90% shields and 10% armor bleed, then the tact 0 passive tank should tank around 10% more. if taking 100 damage to shields on tact 5 skill (below 25% shields) then should be able to take 100 dmage to shields on tact 0 skill, plus the bleed damage (which is 11.11% more). Take a passive tank that can tank 2000 dps and you consider my claim of another battleship of 80 dps is optimistic? 2000 * 11.11% = 222 dps just for illustration. If bleed damage is more than 10%, the amount more it tanks grows, if less than 10%, it shrinks.
If you make assumption that bleed damage is not additional damage, then passive tanking benefits from low tact skill in a useful way. It can still be used in a active shield tank, just you take armor damage in your buffer while basically giving extra shield tank. A DCU also works similar when shields fail etc and your into hull tanking. Many swear by DCU's, yet to claim using low tact skill in similar way some complain?
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AxeMan2
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Posted - 2009.12.10 09:52:00 -
[33]
The damage isnt "additional" , but its transfered to a lesser point of resists , which = more HP lost. When your shield is ALL gone , half your armor is all gone as well.
Bleed Through = Tank Broken Maximum Bleed Through = Dead Sooner
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.10 12:29:00 -
[34]
Every time I have had bleed though damage we are talking 1 to 3 hitpoints and at sub 15% shields. Worrying about bleed though or trying to use bleed though to tank longer is pointless. Using bleed though will not make you tank longer.
Irdia Freelancer said ôAssuming no extra damage from bleed damage, what % of the damage bleeds through?ö In my experience 1% give or take 0.5% bleeds through. That is not 1% per hit. That is 1% when you suffer from bleed though which will not happen every shot. Not long back I spent 5 ish mins at under 20% shields but above 5% after the battle my armour was on 99%. I think I even took a screenshot. Bleed though does not appear to happen every shot.
Irdia Freelancer said ôa passive tank that can tank 2000 dps and you consider my claim of another battleship of 80 dps is optimistic? 2000 * 11.11% = 222 dps just for illustrationö But the point bleed though kicks in your tank is already broken and your tank HP regen is getting weaker by the second. You are not going to be able to tank another BS due to bleed though.
Irdia Freelancer said ôIf you make assumption that bleed damage is not additional damage, then passive tanking benefits from low tact skill in a useful way.ö But a low tact skill means T1 hardeners so youÆre taking way more damage. Far more damage than any bleed though damage will negate. As you need tact lvl 4 for T2 hardeners this discussion should really be what is the difference between Tactical level 4 and level 5. The answer to that is almost none existent with no real benefit. A pilot with tact 4 can tank far more then a pilot with tact 1
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.10 19:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer If you make assumption that bleed damage is not additional damage, then passive tanking benefits from low tact skill in a useful way.
Only in the specific case where you wouldn't be able to reduce the incoming damage if you had TSM and where you wouldn't die anyway with or without TSM. That is, if the tiny bit less shield damage you take due to not having TSM makes the difference between surviving and dying. It really is a highly theoretical excercise you're undertaking.
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer A DCU also works similar when shields fail etc and your into hull tanking.
No it does not. A DCU doubles your effective hull HP and makes sense to have if you expect to get into hull at some point (for instance if you're pvping). TSM does nothing of the sort. Also for PvE, DCUs make very little sense (they could make sense if you're armour tanking and already have many resist mods, as the DCU bonus is not subject to stacking penalty).
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2009.12.11 05:07:00 -
[36]
Take into consideration most shield tankers (Especially passive shield tankers) will have shield resists, when you bleed through to armor you're in essence taking more damage to armor then you would to shield.
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willdieinabout24hrs
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Posted - 2009.12.11 20:35:00 -
[37]
Hooray! Huzzah! He's here, he's here! Its Estel Arador, Editor-in-Chief of EVE. Hey! Why don't you go into each and every thread on the forum and tell us all what we're doing wrong. We desperately need you to tell us what we should be doing and what we shouldn't be doing. Tell us Dear Leader, we beg you! |
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.12 12:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: willdieinabout24hrs Hooray! Huzzah! He's here, he's here! Its Estel Arador, Editor-in-Chief of EVE. Hey! Why don't you go into each and every thread on the forum and tell us all what we're doing wrong. We desperately need you to tell us what we should be doing and what we shouldn't be doing. Tell us Dear Leader, we beg you!
Ooh, I have a fan A little misguided though, everyone knows Akita T is the Editor-in-Chief of the forums
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Zanaraxtarus
Knowledge Stick Station
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Posted - 2009.12.14 11:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Draulin Sure, its an expensive faction setup,
/mouth waters
Originally by: Draulin Active resist and "passive" recharge works great.
/drool
So, where do you run your missions?? yarr!
--Zan-- |
Garresh
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.12.14 19:34:00 -
[40]
When I play paintball, I make sure not to wear a mask so that my visor won't get covered in paint from an accidental shot to the face. That way, my vision stays clear no matter what happens, and my situational awareness never shuts down!
Seriously, though. I've been ****ing around in w-space for a while now in a pure-passive cane. The bleed through doesn't help you, and access to Invulns is more than worth the "loss" of tanking ability. Not to mention bleed through is still damage getting through, and you should know to run when your tank is broken rather than letting it dwindle and linger on while your armor is falling apart.
When passive shield tanks fail, they fail spectacularly. All at once. No saving you...no mitigation...no booster/repper cycles to give your hull a little more time. When they go down, you're dead unless you make it out in seconds. This is a fact of passive shield tanks. Stop trying to evade the weaknesses of your tank, and fit a ****ing invuln field like the rest of us so you never have to reach that point.
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Qalix
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Posted - 2009.12.14 19:58:00 -
[41]
im coming in last. but i am confused. the link earlier posted leads to define TSM:
Quote: What Tactical Shield Manipulation does is lowering the point where you can get damage bleeding through. At level 1 itÆs at 20%, level 2 15%, level 3 10%, level 4 5%, and level 5 0% - meaning youÆll never get armour damage before your shields are completely down.
does that mean if i have 1point of shield point i dont take armor damage? the post with link say no but the link seems like it saying that. please can someone to explain? im still new to eve. sorry im dumb! |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.14 20:20:00 -
[42]
You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5 ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.14 20:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 14/12/2009 20:21:37
Originally by: Qalix im coming in last. but i am confused. the link earlier posted leads to define TSM:
Quote: What Tactical Shield Manipulation does is lowering the point where you can get damage bleeding through. At level 1 itÆs at 20%, level 2 15%, level 3 10%, level 4 5%, and level 5 0% - meaning youÆll never get armour damage before your shields are completely down.
does that mean if i have 1point of shield point i dont take armor damage? the post with link say no but the link seems like it saying that. please can someone to explain? im still new to eve. sorry im dumb!
Without Tactical Shield Manipulation you may get damage to your armour instead of your shields when your shields are below 25%. With Tactical Shield Manipulation to V you won't get any armour damage until your shields are reduced to 0. If you have a few HP left in your shields and receive damage, the damage will first be applied to your shields. Any damage not applied to your shields will be applied to your armour. There is no magic making damage disappear.
Originally by: Pottsey You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5
You don't (or you shouldn't. File a bug report if you do.)
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Estel Arador Sanctimonius drivel
What I find particularly distasteful about you is not your technical knowledge; it's this holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude that you show in every one of your posts in this and other sections, yet you're sweeter than jam in your own JC service thread. It's sickening.
I and I'm sure others find it absolutely despicable. For example, the person above me who put forward what s/he perceived to be correct (though they attached the caviat that they might well be wrong), and you still acted like a complete jerk.
What a ****, to mirror that person's comments. ---
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Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:50:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Captain Pompous What I find particularly distasteful about you is not your technical knowledge; it's this holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude that you show in every one of your posts in this and other sections, yet you're sweeter than jam in your own JC service thread. It's sickening.
I and I'm sure others find it absolutely despicable.
Thanks for the compliment on my technical knowledge
Many people consider it normal that there is a difference between behaviour ingame and behaviour on the forums. The most common form of this is probably that evil persons ingame (pirates/scammers/etc) are making helpful posts on the forums. You could see me as the opposite - won't hurt a fly ingame but am an utter ass on the forums. I think scamming is despicable, but I recognise the scammer's right to scam within the game rules. In the same way my holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude might be dispicable, but you'll have to live with it as long I stick to the forum rules (and I generally do).
Of course my holier-than-thou and dismissive posts often do contain some actual information. I'll happily trash a poster and his post while at the same time answering his question. And I do try to adjust to the target audience; in the New Citizens section I'm often (slightly) nicer than in this section. (Perhaps that would be a nice thing to research sometime - I'm actually trained to assess politeness in texts and conversations, though it's probably not very scientific to do research into one's own posts.)
Originally by: Captain Pompous For example, the person above me who put forward what s/he perceived to be correct (though they attached the caviat that they might well be wrong), and you still acted like a complete jerk.
Posting wrong and un-researched theories confuses other readers (as is evident from post 41). Some basic research by the poster would've prevented that from happening.
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station rat
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Posted - 2009.12.16 22:22:00 -
[46]
Edited by: station rat on 16/12/2009 22:23:25
Originally by: Qalix
does that mean if i have 1point of shield point i dont take armor damage? the post with link say no but the link seems like it saying that. please can someone to explain? im still new to eve. sorry im dumb!
Bleed through means that damage passes through the shields and hits the armor for damage. TSM V means that there is 0% chance that damage will pass through the shield and hit your armor.
HOWEVER, if the incoming damage is more than the HP you left in your shields, the remaining damage is applied to your armor.
So if you have 1 hit point left on your shields and you have TSM V and you receive 10 damage, then 1 point would be absorbed by your shields and the remaining 9 would hit your armor.
Without TSM V, there is a percentage chance that incoming damage can partially or completely bypass your remaining shield HP and reduce your armor HP. Granted this only applies when your shields are below 25% total strength, which means that your tank has been broken and you need to:
1. turn on a booster (which you should have done when you went below 32-33%) 2. warp away (you should have already aligned by now) 3. Hope you can kill enough DPS in the last 25% to compensate for lower recharge rate 4. bend over and kiss your ass...err...ship goodbye
Essentially TSM V allows a smart shield tanking capsuleer an additional buffer to GTFO of dodge before they start receiving damage to Armor and hull. This will hopefully allow your ship to escape before you pop.
Quote: You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5.
You may be lagging and the display is not correct. Frankly, if you are receiving ANY damage to your armor as a shield tanker you are over matched and with a single scrambling frig a wreck for you to come back and salvage (if you're lucky).
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Jugger Takashi
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.17 02:23:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Pottsey You still get bleeding through with the skill at level 5
They fixed that, didnt they ? Got lvl5 and havent seen any bleeds yet. Might be that im all out of blood ;P
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.17 07:38:00 -
[48]
I have been getting bleed through in the past 6 months. But only at low 5% to 15% shields and only when I stay at that amount a while. It was not lag or a display bug as I had to repair it, if it was a display bug my shields would have had to be at 0% and I would have died or at least taken more than 1% amour damage.
It could be a bug, I need to do some more testing. If I get chance I will pop on the test server and see if I can get it to repeat. Either way if it was a bug or not is was so small that bleed though had no impact on combat.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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