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Reid Lutman
Lions Of Judah Intrepid Crossing
2
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Posted - 2012.06.17 10:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
I like the idea of the t3 bc but as it stands now they are overpowered. They are too fast. They're the new vaga/cyna. So what purpose do those ships have now? Don't wait till next year for the balancing because this is a glaring problem. Do it soon please. |
nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2012.06.17 11:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
high damage paper thin. perfectly balanced for their price tag. |
Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
312
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Posted - 2012.06.17 11:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
There are no T3 BCs. Going to go ahead and assume you meant tier 3 BCs. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
230
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Posted - 2012.06.17 12:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm gonna hazard a guess at the OP trying to take on a tier 3 gang in a load of bricked out blasterthrons or something.
I say this because I happen to know that if you have weapons capable of hitting them they pop hilariously fast. |
Forum Clone 77777
State War Academy Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2012.06.17 13:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:There are no T3 BCs. Going to go ahead and assume you meant tier 3 BCs.
Tier 3 = T3 Tech 3 = T3
No reason to be a complete idiot about it is there, since the OP never said anything wrong. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
130
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Posted - 2012.06.17 13:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cynabals are the new Vagabond and have been for some time. Also, when complaining about tier3 BC's, do you have problem with all of them or just the Tornado? |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
222
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Posted - 2012.06.17 15:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:Cynabals are the new Vagabond and have been for some time. Also, when complaining about tier3 BC's, do you have problem with all of them or just the Tornado?
There are the Winmatards, and then there are everyone else. Tier 3 BC category is no exception. Let's work on that. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Limvala Adur
Origin. Black Legion.
6
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Posted - 2012.06.17 19:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Seems like people aren't familiar with the Talos and what it can do. Shame. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
130
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Posted - 2012.06.17 20:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Limvala Adur wrote:Seems like people aren't familiar with the Talos and what it can do. Shame.
Since OP is talking about tier3 BC's being the new Vagabond/Cynabal, I'm guessing he's not talking about the Talos, which in general, flies different. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
500
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Posted - 2012.06.17 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:There are the Winmatards, and then there are everyone else. Tier 3 BC category is no exception. Let's work on that.
Tornado is the weakest of the Tier 3s, easily. |
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
500
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Posted - 2012.06.18 01:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:sabre906 wrote:There are the Winmatards, and then there are everyone else. Tier 3 BC category is no exception. Let's work on that. Tornado is the weakest of the Tier 3s, easily.
That doesn't mean it's bad btw, just that in any specific role, there is another Tier 3 that does things better, Talos is better for solo/small gang stuff, Naga is superior for sniper gangs, Oracle is superior for outright brawling gangs and can function as a something resembling an AHAC, but with a third more DPS and more range.
Tornado still has it's niche (alpha) which makes the balance between Tier 3s pretty good really. And I don't see how they are bad for overall game ecology, they obsoleted certain fleet comps but they were mostly dead anyway. |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2012.06.18 02:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Did someone's ship just get popped by one?
IMO I'd like to see a separate BS version of them that is more useful to people outside of PvP. All I hear is goons this and goons that, it's like you people are the villiagers from goons village. |
Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
314
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Posted - 2012.06.18 02:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:Jack Miton wrote:There are no T3 BCs. Going to go ahead and assume you meant tier 3 BCs. Tier 3 = T3 Tech 3 = T3 No reason to be a complete idiot about it is there, since the OP never said anything wrong.
tier 3 =/= T3 there's a pretty significant difference.
in any case, you totally missed the point of my useless post on a useless thread. |
Raven Hyperbollic
Enslave.
1
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Posted - 2012.06.18 02:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Limvala Adur wrote:Seems like people aren't familiar with the Talos and what it can do. Shame.
And what the talos Cannot do... all teir3 BC's have a massive defence hole. |
Limvala Adur
Origin. Black Legion.
7
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Posted - 2012.06.18 03:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Raven Hyperbollic wrote:Limvala Adur wrote:Seems like people aren't familiar with the Talos and what it can do. Shame. And what the talos Cannot do... all teir3 BC's have a massive defence hole.
Simply read what Mfume wrote, he beat me to it. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
130
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Posted - 2012.06.18 09:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote: IMO I'd like to see a separate BS version of them that is more useful to people outside of PvP.
there are already BS versions of them ingame. They're called battleships and you use them for missions 'n stuff. |
Reid Lutman
Lions Of Judah Intrepid Crossing
2
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Posted - 2012.06.18 11:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Actually, i take it back their not too quick. I just tested them all out on singularity with 1 nanofiber and 1 overdrive. Tornado won, flying at just under 2k m/s.
I still think as an overall package their perhaps too strong. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
888
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Posted - 2012.06.18 12:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:Jack Miton wrote:There are no T3 BCs. Going to go ahead and assume you meant tier 3 BCs. Tier 3 = T3 Tech 3 = T3 No reason to be a complete idiot about it is there, since the OP never said anything wrong.
Tier 3 = Tr3
This has been suggested and supported as the correct abbreviation for tier 3 battlecruisers.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1314
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Posted - 2012.06.18 12:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Reid Lutman wrote:Actually, i take it back their not too quick. I just tested them all out on singularity with 1 nanofiber and 1 overdrive. Tornado won, flying at just under 2k m/s. I still think as an overall package their perhaps too strong.
The only thing really boring is 2K+speed Tornados, that's not even funny and gives another kick in the balls of Vaga already double kicked by Cynabal. It (Tornado) has as much ehp but a much higher dps, easily fit arty or autos but for a third of the price (I actually don't even buy Vagas/Munnin any more). Then you have Cynabal, relegating Vagabond to a simple bonified worthless paper thin T1 hull. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.06.18 12:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:I'm gonna hazard a guess at the OP trying to take on a tier 3 gang in a load of bricked out blasterthrons or something. Does it matter? the thread's still here and the query still posed.
Linna Excel wrote:Did someone's ship just get popped by one?
Does it matter? the thread's still here and the query still posed.
imo, the tech 3's should have a profile that more matches their damage output (i.e. bigger sig radius). Maybe a couple other changes. The tier 3's, pfft, a weak ass ship that has a high dps but will take damage fairly equivalent to a BS. Sure I'm ok with this. |
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Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
94
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Posted - 2012.06.18 12:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tier 3s are plenty Balanced, sure they are fast, project damage well and do good damage, but they are also paper, very paper.
Easily countered, but very powerful, perfectly balanced IMO |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1315
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Posted - 2012.06.18 12:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Tier 3s are plenty Balanced, sure they are fast, project damage well and do good damage, but they are also paper, very paper.
Easily countered, but very powerful, perfectly balanced IMO
Actually most problems we can find in HACS vs those are not directly related to new tier 3 BCs but were already there, those BCs just helped to finish the job.
I'm confident on CCP Ybert...(can't spelz sry) abilities to balance properly HACS when time hits to balance those, he did an excellent job with T1 frigates, hope he will be able to do same with Tech 2 frigs/cruisers and so on.
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
61
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Reid Lutman wrote:Actually, i take it back their not too quick. I just tested them all out on singularity with 1 nanofiber and 1 overdrive. Tornado won, flying at just under 2k m/s. I still think as an overall package their perhaps too strong. The only thing really boring is 2K+speed Tornados, that's not even funny and gives another kick in the balls of Vaga already double kicked by Cynabal. It (Tornado) has as much ehp but a much higher dps, easily fit arty or autos but for a third of the price (I actually don't even buy Vagas/Munnin any more). Then you have Cynabal, relegating Vagabond to a simple bonified worthless paper thin T1 hull.
Hey guys, I have no idea what "tracking" or a "drone bay" or "utility high" is |
Noisrevbus
140
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote: Tornado still has it's niche (alpha) which makes the balance between Tier 3s pretty good really. And I don't see how they are bad for overall game ecology, they obsoleted certain fleet comps but they were mostly dead anyway.
I think Mfume made an excellent post, i'd just like to add this...
There are two major issues with Tier 3 BC:
1. They ruined far more comps than they added to the game, leaving us with less (balance), and wether a comp is dead or not is largely in the eye of the beholder. Looking at practical application they weren't really dead (the tactics they employed were still functional, even if they were impopular due to cost and scaling issues) and balancing the game around popularity is stupid.
2. The whole "they are paper thin so that makes them balanced, no matter how much damage they do and how easy a time they have to apply their damage" is an issue as it's such a major favour for numerical advantage. If everyone can always kill everyone the side with the larger number will undoubtedly win in the long run. That's what's happening to Tier 3 BC and what the OP is beginning to catch up on (despite people like myself pointing it out since before the ships were introduced). Your typical symmetrical march and line-up warfare just got new field-cannons. The AFK-imperial age thrives.
The game had a 3-6 month honeymoon before the blobs caught on. Now, anyone with numbers to spare can easily throw away cost-efficient ships (the Tier 3 BC cost a bit more than Drakes, but are still BC and reasonably affordable), and these ships utterly destroy and offensively counter so many things that the typical 'Drakes' never did. Plus, they blend in better with your typical existing BC-blob than BS ever did. In the end, this has made Tier 3 BC augment the existing BC-blobs much more than it has come to counter them. All at the expense of several different "dead comps" and tactics that did counter them. Very few groups with lesser numbers are using Tier 3 BC to destroy larger numbers of mix gangs.
Also, are there seriously still people out there who belive the Cynabal is a better nano-platform than a Talos in today's environment? That's quite baffling. Having more speed alone does not make it a different type of ship. It's about what ship execute the gameplan best. Nano, in that sense, isn't really a speed limit - it's the name of a larger general tactic. |
Pinkstar Labchief
The Cursed Navy Tactical Narcotics Team
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
t3 = tier 3 T3 = tech 3
So if you have to be a wiseguy why not make sure you don't make a fool of yourself?
Besides the OP is correct - The tier 3 battlecruisers have a ridiculous speed/agility, ******** scan resolution and a dps/volley that no subcapital can match with guns alone...
The speed and agility is often demonstrated by being able to burn reliable out of nullsec bubblecamps with good results and continously being able to force interceptors into a transversal low enough to nuke them with battleship weapons. Also having a battlecruiser capable of outrunning most HACs seems weird.
Battleships have a low scan resolution for a reason = Being able to fit the largest weapons and supposedly should rely on smaller ships to tackle for them. The battlecrusiers with battleship weapons lock things so fast it's not even funny. I think their targeting range is fine, but they should not lock faster than any other battlecruiser without fitting sensor boosters....
The dps/volley damage can be debated - IMO this is the balancing factor for not being heavily tanked. But just because these ships have a smaller tank than other BCs they are not entitled to being superior in all of the mentioned areas.
About the rebalance I doubt CCP will do anything until next year - thats what they just wrote in the dev blog and thats pretty much what makes best sense. Frigates cruisers and then battlecruisers. We will just have to bite it for now and enjoy every little step towards a decent game balance :-)
Pinky |
Maeltstome
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
22
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Posted - 2012.06.18 16:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vaga is about 800m/s faster than the 'Nado with an MWD and also can actually TRACK frigates. it also has better EHP
I don't see the issue you are talking about here. i'll still fly a vaga if im not fighting BS, and a nado if i am.
Working as intended? |
Noisrevbus
140
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Posted - 2012.06.18 17:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Vaga is about 800m/s faster than the 'Nado with an MWD and also can actually TRACK frigates. it also has better EHP
I don't see the issue you are talking about here. i'll still fly a vaga if im not fighting BS, and a nado if i am.
Working as intended?
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Nado, we keep pointing you to the Talos - the 60km Blaster boat with a tracking bonus and a flight of lights. It is not as potent at only killing frigates, but in the larger scheme of things it is a much better platform for kiting the fringe of tackle-range, while dropping transversal low enough to pop persuers as they approach. Add a mix of frigates, cruisers and BC, and the Talos will likely see the better performance.
Add any form of support around both gangs and the Talos will see much better performance as it can extend range out of critical killzones and blitz secondary tackle (ie., recons). It's that tackle that kill nano (webs et. al., that apply after initial points), and cruiser-sized tackle is just as common as frigate-sized tackle today.
If you wanna fly a Vaga or a Cyna, by all means. Just don't pretend that it does something different or does it better, unless your scope of "nano" is limited to "anti-frigate work". The Tier 3 BC are generally better at skirting tackle ranges today. |
PinkKnife
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
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Posted - 2012.06.18 17:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'd be happy with them just getting a nerf in sig res. That way they are easier to track/hit and not so damn slippery. |
Noisrevbus
140
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Posted - 2012.06.18 18:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:I'd be happy with them just getting a nerf in sig res. That way they are easier to track/hit and not so damn slippery.
The problem isn't that they are slippery, is it?
It's not like it's difficult to kill one. The problem is that they, better than a Drake, project highly applicable high damage across most reasonable grids or fields; while there are no better cost-efficient counters to them in groups of larger numbers. The same reason they were introduced in the first place to deal with.
What would you possibly achieve by making them easier to lock, or hit by capital weapons?
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1320
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Posted - 2012.06.18 18:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Viribus wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Reid Lutman wrote:Actually, i take it back their not too quick. I just tested them all out on singularity with 1 nanofiber and 1 overdrive. Tornado won, flying at just under 2k m/s. I still think as an overall package their perhaps too strong. The only thing really boring is 2K+speed Tornados, that's not even funny and gives another kick in the balls of Vaga already double kicked by Cynabal. It (Tornado) has as much ehp but a much higher dps, easily fit arty or autos but for a third of the price (I actually don't even buy Vagas/Munnin any more). Then you have Cynabal, relegating Vagabond to a simple bonified worthless paper thin T1 hull. Hey guys, I have no idea what "tracking" or a "drone bay" or "utility high" is
You should try Eve wiki ^^ |
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