EVE Search - FW complex NPCs

All Channels

Assembly Hall

FW complex NPCs

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.03 00:48:00 - [1] The NPCs in FW need a defined role. Regardless of what role you envision for them, they fail to fulfill it. 1) NPCs of different factions add very different difficulty levels to complexes. The most apparent imbalance is with Caldari NPCs compared to other factions. They have enormous range, the missiles can not be speed tanked even close to as easily as the turrets of the other factions, and the ewar they employ (ECM) is extremely strong in interfering with PvP, especially compared to the ewar of other factions. But this also applies to other factions. Minmatar NPCs also utilize missiles, making those complexes difficult to speed tank compared to, say, the Amarr complexes. Amarr TDs interfere with combat much more than the painters of the Minmatar. Gallente dampeners are annoying only if you have a long-range fit, a single frigate can easily keep them occupied as they have no range. Etc. Regardless what the role of NPCs in FW is - and especially if that role is to provide something to do while there are no hostile players around, as CCP stated - the NPCs of the different factions should be equal in danger level. Proposed solution: Replace all stats of the FW complex NPCs with a single set of stats that is identical for all four factions. The only difference between the factions should be the model they use, and at most the damage type they are weak against (and even that is unnecessary). 2) NPCs care too much about standings The FW complex NPCs will not shoot you if you have high standings with their faction, even if you are in a hostile militia. In the actual primary hostile militia, this is somewhat balanced by gaining standings fast for capturing complex, and thus losing enemy faction standing fast, so you can not do this for long. But if you are in the "off militia" (e.g. Caldari for Minmatar, Amarr for Gallente, etc.), you do not gain or lose standings for plexing. This leads to the situation where the most effective offensive plexing is done by a rookie alt with sufficient standings in the "off militia", as they can run offensive plexes without NPC interference, i.e. a t1 frigate is enough for even unrestricted complexes; and as the "off" militia do not get any standings from plexing, so do not lose that ability. I do not think that this is the way FW should be played, so this game mechanic has to change. Proposed solution: Have FW complex NPCs shoot members of hostile militias regardless of their standings. Alternatively, to diminish the ability of third parties to interfere, have FW complex NPCs shoot everyone who is not part of their associated militia or the allied militia. (If you need an RP justification: Hell, you are trespassing on a very important military installation, even if you're blue, GTFO! And yes, I'm in one of those 3rd parties, so I'll hate that change, but it's a lot better than the current situation.)
Z0D	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:03:00 - [2] First part has already been raised by Erik Finnegan in CSM3 and will be fixed. Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs. Click below for my manifesto.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/12/2009 01:13:43 Originally by: Z0D First part has already been raised by Erik Finnegan in CSM3 and will be fixed. I must have missed that, sorry. For the curious, here is the link I found: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Factional_Warfare_-_NPC_Review Originally by: Z0D Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs. Oh, I surely did not intend to say that allied FW factions shouldn't be able to capture hostile plexes (e.g. Gallente should be able to capture Amarr complexes). "3rd party" above refers to outside groups such us my alliance, who are working with a militia, but are not part of that militia.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.03 13:30:00 - [4] Strongly supported. The current situation is just ridiculous. -- Gradient forum
Insa Rexion CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.03 15:21:00 - [5] Edited by: Insa Rexion on 03/12/2009 15:22:17 Edited by: Insa Rexion on 03/12/2009 15:21:59 Aaaaah so THAT's why I saw Damar hanging out with Amarr plexers didn't know this was even possible, supported -------------------------------------------- DOMINION ! Welcome to Amarr Online the sequel, last buff was business, this time it's permanent
Val Erian Azure Horizon Federate Militia	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:14:00 - [6] Edited by: Val Erian on 03/12/2009 16:18:34 Edited by: Val Erian on 03/12/2009 16:16:41 Standings has been issue since begining of FW. Been used before to cap.fight in plexs by many. Me included. Does need to be adressed. Now tha tDamar/perv alts doing it on industrial scale in Minnmatar/Amarr space, look forward to lack of any meaning full plex warfare as is situation in Gal/Cal. This is one reason why Mr. Damar was unsuitable as a CSM canidate.
Nihil Magnus	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:20:00 - [7]
Alica Wildfire Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:22:00 - [8] Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 03/12/2009 16:27:43 Strongly supported without further need to justify why. Not just broken. It's insane. And is currently exploited on an industrial level by said characters, this will break the -so far- fair and working Amarr-Minmatar factional warfare. Act fast please. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Anewb N'eve	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:29:00 - [9] supported
Carib Devist	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:37:00 - [10] Strongly supported. this is just a ridiculous.
Garr Anders The Red Circle Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.03 16:43:00 - [11] Supported ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Isobel Mitar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.03 17:26:00 - [12]
Unfamed II Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.03 17:42:00 - [13] Working as intended. (c) Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Sandslinger of CA So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2009.12.03 17:42:00 - [14] Fully supported. And I know why this thread is here. It is because it is what we do in Matar space right now. Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it. However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is legit or if it's exploit. Answer was outright "No, go ahead". Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues (we dont belive Ankh's party would) we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs. Thank you. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Unfamed II Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.03 18:12:00 - [15] Forgot to check the support box, oh well. Doing it now. Agreed, this is stupid mechanic and should be fixed. I'd like to point out that Ankhesentapemkah or Eric didn't want to address this issue while Ankhesentapemkah was using it to capture Caldari plexes during her time in the Gallente Militia, double standards ftw I guess. Originally by: Sandslinger of CA So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
Garr Anders Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.03 18:27:00 - [16] TBH, this: Originally by: Damar Rocarion Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues .. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General .... that sounds a little bit like you are whining and IMHO Originally by: Damar Rocarion ... And I know why this thread is here. It is because it is what we do in Matar space right now. Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it. .... we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs. ... makes you a hypocrite. Now we all understand that that is broken but neither the amarr and the matari were using it (yet - that level) so although this was broken you could have said that both sides were on an unspoken mutual agreement to not abuse this and "try" to play the game as intend. Now because it is broken for "your" war you have to spoil it for the others, who are trying to play the game as intended and out of their own will are not abusing the system? I do appreciate your support, but TBH, I would feel more "supported" if you would stop doing that. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Val Erian Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:11:00 - [17] Because we did not get our candidate into CSM Quote: we will now grief you. As I said this is why you lost CSM. People know what you are.
sasawong	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Damar Rocarion Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 17:56:24 Fully supported. Meh Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it. Signed Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues (we dont belive Ankh's party would since she was happy to use this tactic) we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs. I don`t know your real intention, but your act as Robin Hood of FW is laughable. The plexing side of FW is dead. Havn¦t sawn, that the Gallente recaptured a system after you have used the same "legal tactic" in their space. In any case, the damage is already too big. And obviously you do not want to stop. Thanks for the destruction of a game idea. Sasawong
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.03 19:29:00 - [19] Originally by: sasawong Originally by: Damar Rocarion Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 17:56:24 Fully supported. Meh Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it. Signed Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues (we dont belive Ankh's party would since she was happy to use this tactic) we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs. I don`t know your real intention, but your act as Robin Hood of FW is laughable. The plexing side of FW is dead. Havn¦t sawn, that the Gallente recaptured a system after you have used the same "legal tactic" in their space. In any case, the damage is already too big. And obviously you do not want to stop. Thanks for the destruction of a game idea. Sasawong Caldari did not use this tactic to take gallente systems, but gallente used it against caldari at same thime when we took all systems. So it can not be a problem, right?
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.03 20:10:00 - [20] The question whether a game mechanic is "good" or "bad" does not depend on whether it is "unbalancing enough", but on whether it encourages the kind of game play you want to have encouraged. This game mechanic encourages the game play where you create an alt, get him high standings, and then run offensive plexes in very cheap ships, primarily avoiding PvP (as it's a very low-SP alt). That does not seem like the kind of game play I want to encourage in FW. Hence, this should be changed.
No Mauk'Ob Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.03 20:46:00 - [21] stupidly broken mechanic is stupidly broken.
Onnen Mentar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.03 21:29:00 - [22] agreed, this needs to be fixed and with priority..
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.03 22:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Damar Rocarion However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is exploit or bug. Answer was outright "No, go ahead". That's the same response I got when I reported it as a potential problem, so don't twist it on me, I also reported it, right from the start, and got the same stupid reply by CCP as you did. "Yeah this is working as intended, go use it!" But we all know that the only reason you use this bug is because your untrained alts can't deal with the strong Minmatar NPCs, like they could with the Gallente NPCs, and this is just a lame excuse. NPCs which you didn't consider a problem. You always whined about me using it, and now you use it yourself. You are a hypocrite and you ruin the spirit of FW, just like you did with your army of untrained alts and exploits to make timers count down magically on the Gallente/Caldari front. Go ahead and abuse this. The sooner CCP will take away the broken plexing system completely, and reset the systems to their original state. --- Click banner for info!
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2009.12.03 22:41:00 - [24] Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 22:44:36 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah That's the same response I got when I reported it as a potential problem, so don't twist it on me, I also reported it, right from the start, and got the same stupid reply by CCP as you did. "Yeah this is working as intended, go use it!" So, why didnt you had any interest to fix it during your term in CSM and quite contrary, constantly bragged about using the standings to capture plexes to me when we chased you away from plexes? This is a legitimate question and i'm sure you would like to answer to all those concerned about faction war. In fact, you said to me and PERVS "Working as intended" many times. So, now that we decided to do the same to show what is wrong in FW, it is bug/exploit in your opinion? Strange logic I must say. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Unfamed II Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.03 22:46:00 - [25] Edited by: Unfamed II on 03/12/2009 22:47:29 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 03/12/2009 22:36:49 Originally by: Damar Rocarion However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is exploit or bug. Answer was outright "No, go ahead". That's the same response I got when I reported it as a potential problem, so don't twist it on me, I also reported it, right from the start, and got the same stupid reply by CCP as you did. "Yeah this is working as intended, go use it!" But didn't think it needed to be fixed? You could have done something good for FW for once. After all, you do TAKE CREDIT for fixing lag issues, having something to do with lolbalanced fw missions etc etc, surely you could have had this one fixed too? I guess you were too busy taking the caldari plexes. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah But we all know that the only reason you use this bug is because your untrained alts can't deal with the strong Minmatar NPCs, like they could with the Gallente NPCs, and this is just a lame excuse. Who is this mysterious we you speak of? We do this because CCP doesn't react to a few individuals taking advantage of this, we shall see if they care when a few more do it. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah NPCs which you didn't consider a problem. You always whined about me using it, and now you use it yourself. You are a hypocrite and you ruin the spirit of FW, just like you did with your army of untrained alts and exploits to make timers count down magically on the Gallente/Caldari front. And how are you not a hypocrite? I remember you bragging in local about this working as intended and so on. (well, you didn't deny being a hypocrite...) Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Go ahead and abuse this. The sooner CCP will take away the broken plexing system completely, and reset the systems to their original state. Yes we will, just like you. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Quote: I'd like to point out that Ankhesentapemkah or Eric didn't want to address this issue while Ankhesentapemkah was using it to capture Caldari plexes during her time in the Gallente Militia, double standards ftw I guess. I'd like to point out that that was the only valid way and affordable for a solo player to deal with the Caldari NPCs as well as the alts and exploits used, which mr. Damar thinks are perfectly balanced and working as intended. The only way? How does this justify you using it? How about making some friends? I heard it can help you a long way. Originally by: Sandslinger of CA So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
Garr Anders Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.03 22:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah ..You always whined about me using it, and now you use it yourself. You are a hypocrite and you ruin the spirit of FW, just like you did with your army of untrained alts and exploits to make timers count down magically on the Gallente/Caldari front. Actually that makes you a hypocrite as well. If you used this, you were ruining the spirit just like he is now. If you have found out about this and reported it, that's good, but if you continued to use this, no matter if you want to "proof a point" or get an unfair advantage you're not better as any other common exploiter. And I say exploiter as you see this as broken mechanism that needs to be fixed. Thus you are "exploiting" a broken mechanism according to your own standards. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Go ahead and abuse this. The sooner CCP will take away the broken plexing system completely, and reset the systems to their original state. I hope this was meant to be ironic, because before Damar started "playing the loophole" Amarr and Minmatar were so far happy with their "meaningless occupancy". It was all driven my "incharacterly driven pride" and fun in having PvP. Just because Caldari and Gallente got a broken toy and dont like to play with it they dont have to ruin it for the Amarr and Minmatar who were at least so creative to play with it even though it is broken. If you (in a general sense and only loosely aimed at Ankhesentapemkah and Damar) got a problem with the state of FW adress it to CCP. Just ruining the game for other is not "proving a point". It's just griefing. Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Quote: I'd like to point out ... I'd like to point out ... So we got two hypocrites pointing fingers at each other pointing out that "the other" is a hypocrite. This would almost be funny if you two wouldnt be ruining the game for others. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:06:00 - [27] This tactic is most efficient way to conquer all system. This system shows what happen if you remove npc from plexes or make them inefficient (like amarr npc is now), our alts does not have to care about those at all. This method also proves that plex spawning is not an issue if you attack on whole area, not only in 1 or 2 systems. Here was only couple things what this can show, but we all can learn from it if we want. Fact is that this is legit method at this moment, and every one knew it exists, if minmatar was not prepared for it they can only look at mirror. And i find it funny how minmatar is crying about it while they had use some of the methods in caldari space on some scale all the time. But maybe all lame things are just ok if others does not use them against you. We did not invent any of these methods, we just put them all together and made lamest machine in fw history. and last i want to thank Ankh for making fw missions easiest way to grind alts for this operation and earn some nice amounts of lp. What is ironic is that these lame traitor alts has millions of minmatar lp to use
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Damar Rocarion So, why didnt you had any interest to fix it during your term in CSM and quite contrary, constantly bragged about using the standings to capture plexes to me when we chased you away from plexes? This is a legitimate question and i'm sure you would like to answer to all those concerned about faction war. Surprise, I did ask CCP to fix this, just like I asked them to fix the cloaking exploit and the timer exploit, and the whole plexing mechanics which basically encourages people (like me) to avoid PVP while they run plexes. I used this tactic to become Luminaire General and hoped this would wake up CCP and get them to fix it. I told them that the current plexing mechanics of FW make it more profitable to use recycled unskilled alts which avoid PVP, than to use established characters who fight over plexes. Why I bragged to you about it? Cause you were bragging about your own alts and exploits, and because you were always smacktalking and insulting me, rather than hearing me out and working with me to fix the issues that troubled FW. Do you think I was in FW just for my own fun? Not really. It was homework which CCP gave to me as part of the CSM. When I was in CSM1, Empyrean Age was just released, and CCP asked me to write a document about factional warfare. I had tested FW on SISI before launch and saw it was released in a pretty incomplete state, so I thought, "Hey, I can make a difference for these players if I specialize here, none of the other CSM seem to care". I didn't have the knowledge of the game that the 0.0 players had, and I just thought this was the best way to contribute to the community as I could. So I signed up with Amarr, my favorite faction (surprise!), learned the ins and outs, became the first Divine Commodore, and wrote a long document about the flaws of FW. The standings issue was noticed somewhere in june 2008, got together with some Amarr players which I plexed with at that time, and one of them reported it. We got the reply that it was working as intended, as it was a necessary evil which allowed allied militia members to be in the plexes if they met standing requirements. I thought this was pretty stupid and mentioned it to CCP on the 22nd June 2008. They would look into it but didn't, just like the other, more important issues, were never fixed. CCP introduced a new round of fixes at the end of July, so I re-joined as Gallente, abused the standings to get max rank, and wrote my second rather critical report. The only time I joined for personal reasons was in december, as I was hoping to get a medal for capturing the most sites. This was the time where you encountered me, and we got to hate eachother. CCP organized that event later on, and I rejoined the Gallente to motivate them to plex for once. Never really cared about plexing and the system capturing business myself, but since CCP had an event, I thought I should be there to see how it went and provide feedback. The average Gallente turned out to be an ungrateful d!ck and had no interest in the event, so I quit again. It was here that I realized there was fishy stuff going on with the plex timers and how you guys were using alts and gaming the system. Also became painfully aware of the lag issues plaguing FW, which I only remotely heard about and never thought much about. Used my influence in the CSM to get CCP to fix the lag and FW mechanics problems (did this through CCP directly as the CSM voted down a lot of FW issues, including the lag one, as they didn't deem them important!), and wrote a new document about the problems with the FW plex mechanics, as well as the NPC imbalance issues. When the Gallente finally started caring about the plexes, I joined Eleutherian guard, but we were put off by the overpowered Caldari NPCs, your use of alts, and all the exploits with the timers. I finally managed to reproduce the timer exploit and reported this to CCP. Seeing no point in playing FW in this state, I quit. --- Click banner for info!
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:33:00 - [29] Could I ask all of you to move the discussion about Caldari vs. Gallente, the accusations of hypcrisy, and other such stuff to a different thread? This issue deserves more than another derailed thread of personal dislikes.
Stevakis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Oh yes one more thing. Why is this issue a problem for you? There is noone using this against you, and if there was, you can just capture everything back with your alts and timer exploits. So the real reason is that you just want to screw up everyone else's joy in FW, just like you guys always did. This. We all know the PERVS and Damar are just a bunch of smacktalking griefers, they don't care about this issue, they just want to ruin the game. They're the Goons of FW.
Tosi Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:42:00 - [31] Originally by: Stevakis This. We all know the PERVS and Damar are just a bunch of smacktalking griefers, they don't care about this issue, they just want to ruin the game. They're the Goons of FW. Finally! Some recognition! Actually i personally do care and i dont see any other way to get this to ccp's attention beside 'ruining' fw ---- -Bad Messenger doesn't actually write on forums, the words assemble themselves out of fear. Mahooky Dowripple > I vote tosi for breakfast
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:49:00 - [32] Supported. While its still broken I might as well use it. Broken plexing mechanics are truly the death of FW. Toss some LP for taking plexes while you're at it! Quote: Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.03 23:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Tosi Actually i personally do care and i dont see any other way to get this to ccp's attention beside 'ruining' fw You guys already ruined it on the Gallente/Caldari front, so the reason for ruining the fun for the rest of the players is? --- Click banner for info!
Neo Gabriel Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.04 00:33:00 - [34] It is good that now they ruin YOUR game too. My game has been ruined for a while and nobody does anything about it. Maybe now with all your tears CCP will take the time do fix FW. Damar and friends are good because they expose the bugs and exploits. Its like a virus that forces the organism do adapt or die. And honestly, of that is wrong about FW, all you care about is that the NPCs are imba an they don't get shot. They are valid points but you are ignoring the dozen or so bugs that exist and all the other shortcomings of FW. I hope they destroy your game and undo all your month's work, see how it is. Maybe then we can get a new one that works.
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.04 03:05:00 - [35] Ruined what? 90% of FW players are in it for casual PvP. Plenty of that going around. But supported nonetheless. Botched sovereignty mechanics are botched. That portion of the game is ruined, but there's still plenty of good features out there.
Eran Mintor Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.04 03:07:00 - [36] Didn't even know about these mechanics till now. ------------------------------------------------
dibblebill Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2009.12.04 03:26:00 - [37] Supported. This is getting ridiculous. ------------------------------------------- Don't feed the trolls. Only flying under a flag until slavery is ended.
Seraphim Risen Beyond Our Sins	Posted - 2009.12.04 03:28:00 - [38] Supported.
Necro Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.04 04:18:00 - [39] supported
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.04 11:12:00 - [40] Edited by: Bad Messenger on 04/12/2009 11:14:46 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Tosi Actually i personally do care and i dont see any other way to get this to ccp's attention beside 'ruining' fw You guys already ruined it on the Gallente/Caldari front, so the reason for ruining the fun for the rest of the players is? If we ruined caldari/gallente front (wich we did not, on our wiev) we did it on legit way, not by using any bug or exploit. I know that there was some cloaky plexing etc going on on both sides, but main attack was made purely legit ways destroying gallente ships and npc in plexes, you just lost your systems in legit ways. You Ankh personally used lame methods most, so you ruined this game, you tried to made gallente to plex (ordered by ccp as you said) but they did not follow you. Never though why? They did not follow you because you were lame whiner who used standing exploits stabs and cloack and you did not want to pvp at all and still you whine how others do some tricks too. And all of that when you were CSM. You were model to us, example, how this game should be played, and we took some tips. SO YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED.
Garr Anders Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.04 11:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Bad Messenger ... Originally by: Tosi ... Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah ... To you three, this: Originally by: Arkady Sadik Could I ask all of you to move the discussion about Caldari vs. Gallente, the accusations of hypcrisy, and other such stuff to a different thread? This issue deserves more than another derailed thread of personal dislikes. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Borakh Tieberius 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.04 11:30:00 - [42] Supported. Fix this bug/exploit, as it gives an unfair advantage, and enforces/allows a war to be fought without fighting. Not what was intended I think. Same arguments count for the timer bug.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.12.04 11:48:00 - [43] I support this initiative. Utilising this flawed mechanic is not really so different from using any of the other flawed FW mechanics. That doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try to get them fixed. At least it's not Time Zone related. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
LaFond Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.04 12:07:00 - [44]
olzi Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.04 12:27:00 - [45] Supporting this.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.04 12:34:00 - [46] I think its quite important to fix this right now because the alternative is having the result of the Amarrian/Minmatar front decided by cheesy near-exploits that will cheapen and diminish the results for all involved players. I cannot believe that a majority of the 24th Crusade players would want to "win" the occupancy battles in their theatre through the efforts of a standings-loophole like this. It makes a mockery of corporations like 1PG and PIE and others who have by and large been fighting an honest war so far. It is ridiculous that Caldari faction characters can contest Minmatar complexes without standings penalty to the Minmatar. Just as it would be ridiculous for Minmatar players to content Caldari complexes without standings penalty in the enemy faction. This kind of "gaming" of the complex and occupancy system turns Faction Warfare into a farcical embarrassment for CCP and it needs to be quickly patched before the result of faction warfare and RP consequences from the conflict is decided by nothing more than shortsighted weakness in the core design. Something needs doing and it needs doing now. True Knowledge
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2009.12.04 12:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Jade Constantine I cannot believe that a majority of the 24th Crusade players would want to "win" the occupancy battles in their theatre through the efforts of a standings-loophole like this. It makes a mockery of corporations like 1PG and PIE and others who have by and large been fighting an honest war so far. It will be up to Amarr to give the finishing blow anyway. Caldari cannot shoot the bunker so Amarr can simply refuse to take the system. We simply want to bring attention to this bug to CCP. Only one Amarr pilot was actually even informed about it in advance so this is not a joint op or anything, purely a Caldari operation. As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Gabriel Darkefyre Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.12.04 13:04:00 - [48] Ironically, Damar and Ankh seem to have the same wish for FW:- To Eliminate the Various Bugs and Exploits in order to make FW a more enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Problem is, because they're going about it through such wildly different methods they end up butting heads so much that any attempt by the other to help balance out the mechanics gets lost in the Personal Arguements both by these two and their various supporters. Let's just try to focus the arguements on the actual problems rather than the people, maybe we'll actually be able to achieve some improvements that way. Oh, and Supported. --------------- Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs
Nephilim Xeno Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.12.04 14:55:00 - [49] this op is a bit too one sided in favour to the minmatar for me to support, maybe someone should make a more neutral issue. FW needs a complete overhaul. wardeccing, high sec security, plexes, missions and even system layout of the amarr/minamtar warzone. we need Faction Warfare MkII small fixes wont do much
No Mauk'Ob Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.04 15:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Nephilim Xeno this op is a bit too one sided in favour to the minmatar for me to support, maybe someone should make a more neutral issue. FW needs a complete overhaul. wardeccing, high sec security, plexes, missions and even system layout of the amarr/minamtar warzone. we need Faction Warfare MkII small fixes wont do much I would say that is only because 1) OP is in EM and 2) it's happening in Minmatar systems currently. I don't believe we will get any changes if we request too broad of a stroke but smaller concerted efforts for the larger issues may net some gain. (this one, the timer bug being my two big ones right now) Please consider giving your support to this Nephilim as you do seem to agree with the sentiment.
Asthariye	Posted - 2009.12.04 15:15:00 - [51]
Neu Bastian Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.04 15:16:00 - [52] Would rather small progressive changes over several minor patches than wait for next year's new expansion. Quote: Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
sasawong	Posted - 2009.12.04 15:55:00 - [53] Originally by: Nephilim Xeno this op is a bit too one sided in favour to the minmatar for me to support, maybe someone should make a more neutral issue. FW needs a complete overhaul. wardeccing, high sec security, plexes, missions and even system layout of the amarr/minamtar warzone. we need Faction Warfare MkII small fixes wont do much Please do not take this comment seriously.He has only one side of the brain present. Amon xeno was not there.
Neu Bastian Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.04 16:48:00 - [54] Originally by: sasawong Originally by: Nephilim Xeno this op is a bit too one sided in favour to the minmatar for me to support, maybe someone should make a more neutral issue. FW needs a complete overhaul. wardeccing, high sec security, plexes, missions and even system layout of the amarr/minamtar warzone. we need Faction Warfare MkII small fixes wont do much Please do not take this comment seriously.He has only one side of the brain present. Amon xeno was not there. For those who don't know, Sasa here is refering to Nephelim Xeno's alt, Amon Xeno, a Gallente character in an NPC corp that follows him around with Remote repairers; sometimes in a guardian, sometimes in a BS, sometimes in an exequror. Also used amply to scout Minmatar numbers. Xeno is not the only one that does it in either side, but is surely the most consistent, frequent, and the most famous. Quote: Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
Enil Eromeno	Posted - 2009.12.04 17:27:00 - [55] /sign
Turbular Knight Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.04 17:31:00 - [56] Edited by: Turbular Knight on 04/12/2009 17:31:14 Supported. ____________________________________________________________
Nephilim Xeno Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.12.04 17:46:00 - [57] i just think it would be better to have one big issue that covers all FW problems rather than multiple small ones that will all get ignored by the CSM 0.0 lobby anyway vOv
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.04 18:08:00 - [58] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 04/12/2009 18:08:54 Originally by: Nephilim Xeno i just think it would be better to have one big issue that covers all FW problems rather than multiple small ones that will all get ignored by the CSM 0.0 lobby anyway vOv There is a general "FIX FW!" thread here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1225788 The other thread I opened about post-DT plexing was thankfully noticed by a CSM member, and will be raised with CCP (again). I am sorry that I gave the impression to be impartial to the Minmatar in this case (it wouldn't be surprising, being in EM, but I try not to be when I look at game mechanics; the original post included a request to rebalance FW NPCs, for example).
Hailey Sunweaver Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.04 22:55:00 - [59] Plexing in FW is broken and offers little or no reward.
Montmazar Vard School of Cryo Cuisine	Posted - 2009.12.05 01:39:00 - [60] Seems like an easy fix for a big problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.
Jared Ulfsuun	Posted - 2009.12.05 11:52:00 - [61] Supported.
Rain Kaessinde	Posted - 2009.12.05 14:30:00 - [62] Yes, fix plx.
Fayn Locat	Posted - 2009.12.05 15:59:00 - [63] fix this things , it's like an exploit
Vir Hellnamin Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.05 17:23:00 - [64] why not. left thumb up. (still, I'm curiously-wanting to see how CCP reacts to totally messed up FW...) -- "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
Misan Pal'taek Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.05 17:26:00 - [65] Supported.
Rocius Tribal Consortium Management Services Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.05 17:27:00 - [66] Suppoted, please fix FW on ALL sides
Jaredh Elkin Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.05 18:04:00 - [67] Supported, this is just ridiculous.
Andreas Plotkine	Posted - 2009.12.05 18:14:00 - [68] Supported, please fix it for all factions.
Gunther Alaves	Posted - 2009.12.05 18:16:00 - [69] Supported.
Samiko Kei	Posted - 2009.12.05 21:01:00 - [70] Supported - that's a stupid mechanic.
Drauqhk Shathet Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.05 23:01:00 - [71] Supported Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Arnulf Ogunkoya The Causality Vanguard Venture Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.05 23:59:00 - [72] This matter definitely needs attention. Really I don't see why allied militia shouldn't get standings for assisting their allies, and get shot at for doing so by the NPC forces they are acting against. Regards,
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2009.12.06 11:54:00 - [73] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Oh yes one more thing. Why is this issue a problem for you? There is noone using this against you On the contrary. People use it. Val Erian even created an alt named Ramad Noinacor to mock me for it. Qcats use "Lets have Caldari npc shoot Caldari militia" bug and there are other examples out there. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Revor Cas	Posted - 2009.12.06 12:35:00 - [74] supported.
Astria Tiphareth 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.12.06 12:47:00 - [75] Originally by: Jade Constantine I cannot believe that a majority of the 24th Crusade players would want to "win" the occupancy battles in their theatre through the efforts of a standings-loophole like this. It makes a mockery of corporations like 1PG and PIE and others who have by and large been fighting an honest war so far. Too damned right. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.06 12:58:00 - [76] Supported, IF and only IF: - NPCs are balanced across the factions. - Speed tanking/ solo-capping made impossible. - Plexing/occupancy made worth a damn. - etc. etc. ad nauseum. ------------- FW is broken, simple as that. Change any one thing as it is and the proverbial apple-cart topples .. it has to be done all at once for any kind of level playing field to exist. CCP has proven reluctant to do anything about people actually using known bugs (timer bug) even though it is a bannable offense according to their own rules. CCP has proven reluctant when it comes to labelling something as an "exploit" (in all areas not just FW), thus giving "users" a carte blanche when it comes to exploiting - they are essentially making ignorance a valid defense.
JoseManuel Barroso	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:15:00 - [77] supported.
Shaikar PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:19:00 - [78] Supported. Originally by: Arkady Sadik 2) NPCs care too much about standings ... This leads to the situation where the most effective offensive plexing is done by a rookie alt with sufficient standings in the "off militia", as they can run offensive plexes without NPC interference, i.e. a t1 frigate is enough for even unrestricted complexes; and as the "off" militia do not get any standings from plexing, so do not lose that ability. I do not think that this is the way FW should be played, so this game mechanic has to change. However it is somewhat moot and will remain so for as long as the complex timers are bugged so you only have to trigger them but don't have to stay there for the duration to make them keep counting down. In other words it is a silly loophole that needs patching but it would be a bit like patching the hole in the roof to keep the rain out whilst the supporting wall is in danger of collapsing.
Gegi Wau Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:20:00 - [79] Edited by: Gegi Wau on 06/12/2009 13:20:26 This is simply ridiculous. Pretty poor showing by CCP, and shame on those who base their strategy on this obviously faulty game mechanic. The people exploiting this loophole are making a mockery of FW.
Ahab Keat 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:23:00 - [80] Fix it!
Benito Arias	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:26:00 - [81] supported
Femerov Minmatar Orias Fringe Enterprises Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:37:00 - [82] Strongly supported :)
John Tanashima	Posted - 2009.12.06 13:40:00 - [83] Strongly supported, immersion breaking, game play wreaking mechanism should go away.
Machiavelli's Nemesis Angry Mustellid	Posted - 2009.12.06 14:04:00 - [84] Fix this ASAP. It's completely lame
Drezdyn	Posted - 2009.12.06 14:32:00 - [85] Edited by: Drezdyn on 06/12/2009 14:32:50 I've heard the CCP response to this issue has been 'working as intended', though I won't assume that's the case without seeing their statement. I honestly don't see how this could be the case. Are the NPC defenders of plexes supposed to be mentally challenged? What other believable rationale could they have for standing by impotently whilst obvious enemies capture a military complex from under their noses? Do they check the pilot's standings and say 'stand down men, that's Tom - remember he was at the xmas party last year - real friendly bloke. Ah don't mind that he's working for the enemy, we sure don't want to cause him any trouble...' Working as intended? I guess fw is intended to be a metagame you need an alt to play. [EDIT]: forgot to support topic. CCP plz fix.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 14:45:00 - [86] Originally by: Drezdyn I've heard the CCP response to this issue has been 'working as intended', though I won't assume that's the case without seeing their statement. I honestly don't see how this could be the case. When I first witnessed an incarnation of this, an Amarrian capturing Minmatar complexes without being shot at by the NPCs, I bug reported it (#60498, 2008.07.26 16:27:37). The reply then was: Quote: Thank you for your report. This is by design. Enemy NPCs will trust you as long as you maintain a certain level of standings with them. This trust will not last forever, if you abuse it though. This is indeed the case there. A Minmatar (just to cycle factions around a bit, all sides have used this at some point or another) capturing Amarr plexes will get Minmatar standings, thus lose Amarr standings, so this will solve itself over time - actually, rather quickly. This "new incarnation" is different, though, as the "allied faction" does not get any standings. So the Caldari FW pilots with high Minmatar standings do not get any Amarr standings for capturing Minmatar complexes, which in turn means they do not lose Minmatar standings, so this does not solve itself as the other bug does. Hence, I have bug reported this "new incarnation" of the problem (#88013, 2009.12.02 19:35:40), noting that the original design of this problem "balancing itself out" does not work here. No reply on that bug report so far.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Jade Constantine ...I cannot believe that a majority of the 24th Crusade players would want to "win" the occupancy battles in their theatre through the efforts of a standings-loophole like this. It makes a mockery of corporations like 1PG and PIE and others who have by and large been fighting an honest war so far... Jade Constantine, I appreciate your naive belief that PIE had honour but take a look at IGS where PIE is rubbing the new system occupancies in our faces, and even in this thread they only give conditional support. Shame really. Still, it's not PIE's fault, they're only riding on the back of the inevitable. Damar wouldn't listen to them, as he's on his own crusade. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Stratio Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:26:00 - [88] Edited by: Stratio on 06/12/2009 15:31:53 Originally by: Z0D Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs. Not being shot at by NPCs at all? Or just that gallente, for example, should be able to help minmatar defend minmatar plexes without being shot at by minmatar npcs. _____________________ For Tribe and Honour!
Drakonus Laerdon PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:27:00 - [89] Kade, the systems went vulnerable, and were occupied by Amarr forces. Of course we are going to RP this, it's what is happening in the game world. I understand that it's not fair that a bug or exploit was used, but that is life sometimes. It's up to CCP to fix what is broken, because FW is their project. That said, I support the standings issue. CCP should fix it ASAP. --------------- Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis, Sed nomini tuo da gloriam.
Nephilim Xeno Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:34:00 - [90] this is not really much different from the speedtanking issue we had to deal with since the nano changes whether a frig sits in the plex not getting shot at all or orbits the timer with AB while being shot by 30 NPCs not taking any dmg is really not much of a difference and yet the same minmatar that heavily abused speedtanking in the past (and still do!) are now outraged because of this standing issue so who is being a hypocrite here? fixing only one of this issues will only benefit one side while screwing over the other one also since the plex mechanics in FW seem to heavily reuse existing eve mechanics i doubt that fixing this would be easy, probably involves rewriting a lot of code and decoupling FW mechanics from non FW ones maybe there should really be some kind of FW round table where all 4 militias sit together and formalize one CSM issue covering ALL problems and then get the members off all 4 militas to vote for it aswell as long as the issues remain small and too one sided you won't get enough supporters
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:37:00 - [91] Originally by: Damar Rocarion It will be up to Amarr to give the finishing blow anyway. Caldari cannot shoot the bunker so Amarr can simply refuse to take the system. We simply want to bring attention to this bug to CCP. Only one Amarr pilot was actually even informed about it in advance so this is not a joint op or anything, purely a Caldari operation. As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General Damar you are exploiting (small "e") a ridiculous loophole in the FW system to remove the enjoyment of thousands of players. The war that has been fairly decently fought by those players will be brought to a conclusion in weeks now by what will be commonly recognized by as cheating the system. While CCP GM's and Developers have thus far failed to see the implications of this loophole I do not think it gives you free reign to act like this and destroy the integrity of the Faction warfare conflict like a spoilt child raging against a lack of parental attention. If the war ends like this the Amarrian RP community will never recover from the taint. Any 24th Crusade corporation publicising victory posts will be viewed as sharing your exploiting of the game system and all that will be left will be the same kind of bitterness that stalked and ruined the Black Rise zone. To your motivation. I cannot agree. I don't like log-in traps. It doesn't mean that I logout my entirely alliance at gates and perform such traps 24/7 to make my point. You are ruining Faction Warfare for thousands of players right now. Either admit you are doing it for the agenda of "griefing" (which lets face it is certainly an eve tradition) or stop doing it. Unless the TLF players can summon up a goon-style threadnaught on general forum of 200+ pages in the next few days to complain about this situation then I cannot see CCP being able or willing or act fast enough to prevent the end of this warzone through this tactic. True Knowledge
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Kade Jeekin Originally by: Jade Constantine ...I cannot believe that a majority of the 24th Crusade players would want to "win" the occupancy battles in their theatre through the efforts of a standings-loophole like this. It makes a mockery of corporations like 1PG and PIE and others who have by and large been fighting an honest war so far... Jade Constantine, I appreciate your naive belief that PIE had honour but take a look at IGS where PIE is rubbing the new system occupancies in our faces, and even in this thread they only give conditional support. Shame really. Yes it is very disappointing to see PIE making RP propaganda mileage out these system captures achieved purely through the Caldari plexing technique. I admit I expected more from them on an OOC level. Quote: Still, it's not PIE's fault, they're only riding on the back of the inevitable. Damar wouldn't listen to them, as he's on his own crusade. Well ultimately if they use the advantage to win the war they are complicit. In PIE's place I'd have simply wardecced these caldari for ruining the spirit of the war for everyone involved but then thats me ... and I'm pretty wardec happy at the best of times. True Knowledge
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 15:52:00 - [93] I can not blame PIE for making RP out of it. I would love to make RP out of it, too (the Minmatar are supposed to be the underdogs, and hell, my alliance has been saying we'll be losing the war fast if it's started, so it actually fits into my RP background) - but it's just not possible to go "uh, well, the Caldari have brought a large group of barely trained pilots that are not being shot at by our Fleet if they are capturing the complex, and we failed to set up regular 12'o'clock fleets, and I'm not helping because the Republic doesn't want my alliance to help, ..." - the bugginess of the mechanics makes ICerizing the whole thing absolutely impossible for me. On the other hand, I am not worried about losing systems. That just means there are more options to capture them back. What I am worried about is that the Minmatar Militia will lose active pilots interested in plexing because "losing" is demoralizing, thus breaking the nice balance we had between the Amarr and Minmatar militias for a very long time. The lack of balancing factors in FW just means that the normal failure cascades in large groups have very permanent effects.
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.12.06 16:13:00 - [94] Originally by: Damar Rocarion It will be up to Amarr to give the finishing blow anyway. Caldari cannot shoot the bunker so Amarr can simply refuse to take the system. Yes, the Amarr could refuse to take the sys... Wait, was that 3 Minmatar Systems being taken in quick succession by use of this bug? With Respect, Players, no matter what side they're on, will not care how a system goes vulnerable, all they'll care about is that it's in a position to be taken. Those 3 systems prove that. Have to admit, it's certainly going to be interesting seeing CCP's response to this as there's no way they can claim that this is Working as intended. Destroying the warzone that was best balanced, however was probably not the best way to do this. Had you done it from the Gallente side to do in a few weeks what honest plexers have been trying to do for months, then you'd have made a bigger point. So, what do you think. Don't look at it from the point of View of a leading Caldari Plexer, but from a purely Neutral Point of View :- With the use of this tactic, could you reset the battlelines in the Gallente-Caldari War within a Few Weeks? Could you undo what dozens of Players on the Caldari side had put several Months of constant effort into Achieving? --------------- Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 16:16:00 - [95] Originally by: Z0D ... Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs. I have to ask... why? Why on earth should you be able to seize an enemy faction's military outpost without anyone trying to shoot you? -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 16:26:00 - [96] Edited by: Evanda Char on 06/12/2009 16:42:43 Originally by: Damar Rocarion As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General Then perhaps you could support the topic that calls for a fix to it? EDIT: I'm a doofus, you actually did. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
K0n Fus10n Tribal Core	Posted - 2009.12.06 17:04:00 - [97] +1
Neu Bastian Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.06 17:14:00 - [98] 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system. Go ahead CCP, tell me this s* is not game breaking. :( Quote:** Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.06 17:29:00 - [99] Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system. Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :( Let's hope this particular kick is sufficiently swift and painful so that CCP wakes up at long last....
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2009.12.06 17:30:00 - [100] Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 06/12/2009 17:39:30 Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 06/12/2009 17:37:14 Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system. Go ahead CCP, tell me this s* is not game breaking. :( The cloaking exploit was not game breaking enough to warrant a fix for 4 months. The lag wasn't serious enough to warrant a fix for 6 months. The timer exploit is not game breaking enough, and still not fixed after 8 months. The FW missions were fixed in Dominion oh wait... After a year, kills ~~give Loyalty Points~~ may sometimes give LP but most of the time they don't. The FW plex spawn mechanics will be fixed ~~right after Apocrypha~~ Soon(TM). Alliances may participate in Factional Warfare ~~in Empyrean Age 1.2, Quantum Rise, Q1 2009, Right after Apocrypha~~, Someday. The CSM has raised the lack of development and bug fixes several times. I did, Erik did, Z0D will likely be raising this very topic as well. CCP just doesn't think FW is important. Originally by:** Veshta Yoshida Let's hope this particular kick is sufficiently swift and painful so that CCP wakes up at long last.... Unfortunately I cannot tell you about the gross incompetence and uncaringness going on behind the scenes. Question for the people here. Do you think that FW is salvagable, as in, can it work if there are some tweaks and rebalances? Or are the mechanics so fundamentally broken, that all of it should be sent back to the drawing board? --- Click banner for info!
Aurore Tam	Posted - 2009.12.06 17:40:00 - [101] Supported
Z0D	Posted - 2009.12.06 18:01:00 - [102] Edited by: Z0D on 06/12/2009 18:12:01 FW has many problems, not just the standing. I believe there is an attitude problem with CCP in regards to FW. For this reason, I'll be supporting the following thread here as that is a broader issue. Click below for my manifesto.
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2009.12.06 18:13:00 - [103] Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 06/12/2009 18:17:24 Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre So, what do you think. Don't look at it from the point of View of a leading Caldari Plexer, but from a purely Neutral Point of View :- With the use of this tactic, could you reset the battlelines in the Gallente-Caldari War within a Few Weeks? Could you undo what dozens of Players on the Caldari side had put several Months of constant effort into Achieving? I probably could. It would be horrible and lame. And Gallente are/were already doing it, such as Val Erian with his alt Ramad Noinacor and few others. Understand this. We simply had to take this desperate course of action before it exploded on our face in our front. Let me repeat it already, I dont personally like what I am doing but eventually, someone would start it and destroy FW anyway. It is better to get the attention to CCP now. We tried for over a year in forums and bug reports, no help. Do you think Gallentes would be any different and honourable than Amarr if the position was reversed? No, the actions in that Nennamaila fight already proved it well enough. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 18:13:00 - [104] Now after the sov revamp, a full FW revamp would be nice. I think it can be made into something usable, but to make it into something really good, you need to remove the division between plexing and pvping, so you don't have two different (and almost disjunct) crowds for those. But that would require a rather drastic change to plexing all in all. And I have no idea what kind of change. Fixing the bugs and making it balanced (even for vastly different militia sizes and participation) is quite straightforward and doable, so doing that first would be a great.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.06 18:23:00 - [105] Originally by: Damar Rocarion I probably could. It would be horrible and lame. And Gallente are/were already doing it, such as Val Erian with his alt Ramad Noinacor and few others. Understand this. Aha, so this is all about your own self-interest after all. You have to put some more effort in "defending" (as in use 10 untrained AFK alts to sit at the buttons) the Caldari systems now because there suddenly are more than 2 people that can deal with overpowered Caldari NPCs. So off you go, grief the Minmatar until they start posting whinethreads, so you have your way and you can keep on defending Caldari space with your 10 untrained alts. --- Click banner for info!
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.06 21:41:00 - [106] This is the first I'm hearing of this, and yes, it does greatly diminish the victories. Let's hope CCP acts quickly, on all the FW issues. Though I'm not holding my breath. As to the RP side, I don't think it can be expected that we ignore the systems going vulnerable, and seeing what the Caldari have done in such a short time when she and the rest of the 24IC plexers have been busting their humps for just about a year and a half has really put Mitara into a depressed state
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.06 21:50:00 - [107] It should be addressed along with the bug fix for the dodgy timers that keep going even when the plex is empty. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
No Mauk'Ob Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.06 22:59:00 - [108] Originally by: Rodj Blake It should be addressed along with the bug fix for the dodgy timers that keep going even when the plex is empty. agreed whole heartedly. how that particular bug has survived in the wild for at least 8 months when it is know and reported I'll never know. please consider supporting this thread as well: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1225788 so we can get back to hard fought victories and bitter defeats sooner than later.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.12.06 23:05:00 - [109] Originally by: Rodj Blake It should be addressed along with the bug fix for the dodgy timers that keep going even when the plex is empty. To be honest the bugged timers are worse than the standings issue. The real, and most simple, solution to both of these, and pure speed tanking, is the requirement that all the Navy must be destroyed before the plex can be captured. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.06 23:09:00 - [110] Originally by: Kade Jeekin To be honest the bugged timers are worse than the standings issue. What makes the standings issue more of a problem is that the plex bugging can be petitioned; the standings abuse can't. So the former can not be abused on a large scale such as it is currently done with the standings. But yes, there are so many idiotic bugs it's not funny anymore.
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.06 23:21:00 - [111] Edited by: Insa Rexion on 06/12/2009 23:24:30 Edited by: Insa Rexion on 06/12/2009 23:24:04 If I learn one thing from this it's that I can't stand plexers and their pathetic, game ruining pendantry and one-upmanship, whether they are gallente or caldari. Please just sod off all of you and take ur silly meta-dramas elsewhere, I for one am sick to death of all of you. EDIT, TBH let's just get this over with, all matari should just completely ignore all plexes. Let the caldari take them all and get CCP to do something about it so we don't have to listen to them and the gallente plexers ***ing on about a mechanic that means nothing to most ppl in FW over and over and over ... -------------------------------------------- well mannered **ole
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.12.06 23:47:00 - [112] Originally by: Damar Rocarion Do you think Gallentes would be any different and honourable than Amarr if the position was reversed? No, the actions in that Nennamaila fight already proved it well enough. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General In truth, No. I don't believe that. As long as this, or any other, loophole exists then there are people on all sides who would gladly exploit it. No side is whiter than white when it comes to that. I can only speak for myself when I say that I've never deliberately triggered off any of the assorted exploit/bugs. There was one time when I was forced to warp out under heavy NPC Fire when taking a plex solo, repaired my ship and returned to the plex to find that the plex timer was still running. No Idea how it happened and No Idea of how to reproduce it in sufficient detail for a bug report. I'm told that it's been bug reported several times in the past however by people on all sides. As to the Plex I was in, I got back within range of the Timer and finished off the Rats to successfully take the plex legally. Someone did say above that plexes should require you to kill all the hostile rats to close them. On that I'd have to agree, however there should be rats spawned from both sides to make it just as hard to take a defensive plex as it is to take an offensive plex. The requirement to Kill the Rats would solve the Standings issue as the person running the plex would be aggressed to the Rat Faction, it would solve the T1 Speedtanking Frigate Issue as they would not have the DPS to take on a plex solo and it would solve the Bugged Timers Problem as finishing the plex would no longer require you to orbit a button, just wipe out all the NPC Rats of the opposing faction before the other side can wipe out the rats of your faction. Of course, It'd damage your standings towards the opposing faction, but then there should be consequences to getting into FW. After all, with the Level 1 Agent Changes from Dominion it's now impossible to permanently lock yourself out of any faction's space. --------------- Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs
Gangleri Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 00:27:00 - [113] This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change. Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it. For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ...... And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits. 1PG is recruiting
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 00:51:00 - [114] I have the greatest respect for 1PG for that. That can not have been an easy decision.
Aeirah	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:02:00 - [115] Support this change. Essentially attacking a military installation without repercussions cause your "buddies" doesn't make any sense in any setting, game or otherwise.
Seriphyn Inhonores Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:11:00 - [116] Yep, it's rather daft.
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:17:00 - [117] Mad props to Gangleri and 1PG for taking such a stand on this issue.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:18:00 - [118] Originally by: Gangleri This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change. Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it. For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ...... And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits. I have to give you respect for this Gangleri. Appreciated. True Knowledge
Neu Bastian Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:29:00 - [119] Originally by: Gangleri This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change. Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it. For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ...... And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits. Much Respect bro. Quote: Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
Barik Soldrum	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:38:00 - [120]
Stevakis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 01:45:00 - [121] Edited by: Stevakis on 07/12/2009 01:45:09 applause for Ankhesentapemkah and Gangleri Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Question for the people here. Do you think that FW is salvagable, as in, can it work if there are some tweaks and rebalances? Or are the mechanics so fundamentally broken, that all of it should be sent back to the drawing board? Back to the drawing board. Even giving LP for the plexes will not work. Defensive plexing can and will still be done with alts and plexing in general has little to do with PVP. The system needs to be reworked completely, and be more PVP-centric instead of encouraging all this filthy metagaming. Edit: Support thread
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.07 02:25:00 - [122] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system. Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :( The cloaking exploit was not game breaking enough to warrant a fix for 4 months. The lag wasn't serious enough to warrant a fix for 6 months. The timer exploit is not game breaking enough, and still not fixed after 8 months. The FW missions were fixed in Dominion oh wait... After a year, kills ~~give Loyalty Points~~ may sometimes give LP but most of the time they don't. The FW plex spawn mechanics will be fixed ~~right after Apocrypha~~ Soon(TM). Alliances may participate in Factional Warfare ~~in Empyrean Age 1.2, Quantum Rise, Q1 2009, Right after Apocrypha~~, Someday. The CSM has raised the lack of development and bug fixes several times. I did, Erik did, Z0D will likely be raising this very topic as well. CCP just doesn't think FW is important. I wholeheartedly support this topic, and think BOTH the rats and these standing mechanics should be fixed. However, I have no illusion that CCP cares about, or even knows of, the near exploit tactics used to capture these systems which completely remove the pvp from factional warfare. As shown in the list of issues ankh listed. Minnie/amarr, enjoy the exploits and army of alts we've been dealing with for a long time now.
Dantalus Portos 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 02:50:00 - [123] I cannot add much more than Gangleri has already set out. The decision by Gangleri and the Command staff of 1PG was actually quite easy to make. The news of systems falling makes us all feel very hollow at the moment after the many enjoyable and engaging battles we have had to date in FW. There is simply no nobility in what is currently happening. The use of the exploit is not welcome. Amarr Victor, but at what cost..?
Unfamed II Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.07 02:56:00 - [124] Edited by: Unfamed II on 07/12/2009 02:58:04 Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system. Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :( The cloaking exploit was not game breaking enough to warrant a fix for 4 months. The lag wasn't serious enough to warrant a fix for 6 months. The timer exploit is not game breaking enough, and still not fixed after 8 months. The FW missions were fixed in Dominion oh wait... After a year, kills ~~give Loyalty Points~~ may sometimes give LP but most of the time they don't. The FW plex spawn mechanics will be fixed ~~right after Apocrypha~~ Soon(TM). Alliances may participate in Factional Warfare ~~in Empyrean Age 1.2, Quantum Rise, Q1 2009, Right after Apocrypha~~, Someday. The CSM has raised the lack of development and bug fixes several times. I did, Erik did, Z0D will likely be raising this very topic as well. CCP just doesn't think FW is important. I wholeheartedly support this topic, and think BOTH the rats and these standing mechanics should be fixed. However, I have no illusion that CCP cares about, or even knows of, the near exploit tactics used to capture these systems which completely remove the pvp from factional warfare. As shown in the list of issues ankh listed. Minnie/amarr, enjoy the exploits and army of alts we've been dealing with for a long time now. I find your reply rather funny, considering we got the idea from Ankh and Val. We just made their methods public knowledge. Edit: something -b
Grr Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.07 03:32:00 - [125] A great man once said "I would rather lose this stupid war than lose our standards" just before he steered the focus of our corp outside the whole FW arena and let me bring it into CVA. Nothing has changed, I will condem the recent exploitation of the system to capture solar systems and echo Gangleri's words that CCP need to get their act together on this one.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.07 03:39:00 - [126] Edited by: chatgris on 07/12/2009 04:24:23 Originally by: Unfamed II I find your reply rather funny, considering we got the idea from Ankh and Val. We just made their methods public knowledge. Edit: something I joined fw rather late in the game, to non-existent plexes during my TZ and alt corps (lol throne guards) that warp away the second my lone frigate enters the plex with uber rats spawned on their side. If they started it, you guys sure perfected it on a mass industrial scale, as I saw far more noob alts plexing on the caldari side than the gallente in my roams in US TZ fw space. When I was finally figuring out fw mechanics, ankh herself switched to the CALDARI side, was previously on the amarr side, so I am rather amused at this whole "ankh and her gallente doing these plex exploits" theme. Agreed though that the standing mechanic in plexes is lame, whoever uses it. Regardless, I don't want to hijack this thread with another gal/cal fw plex **ing in the wind, especially since most of the proposals I've seen from you on the forums I've agreed with. Lets let the amarr and minmatar have their glorious exploit ridden **ing in the wind contests now. Or, just have them blame the caldari works too ;)
Lost InCogneto	Posted - 2009.12.07 05:23:00 - [127] For over a year now I have seen the Amarr call out for changes to FW and these calls falling on deaf ears. I find it sad that only now when these bugs and loop holes are bringing down Minmatar systems that the crys now get louder. I rejoice that finially these voices will be loud enough that they may be heard and changes could be made. While some ends do not justify the means it is a means that will now echo what needs to be done and should have been done from the start. I will support this as long as CCP draws the most experianced members of faction wars and are bought together to fix what needs to be fixing. I pray that faction wars the unwanted child of eve will now be givin the love it craves.
Val Erian Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia	Posted - 2009.12.07 06:14:00 - [128] Originally by: Unfamed II Edited by: Unfamed II on 07/12/2009 02:58:04 Originally by: chatgris Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system. Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :( The cloaking exploit was not game breaking enough to warrant a fix for 4 months. The lag wasn't serious enough to warrant a fix for 6 months. The timer exploit is not game breaking enough, and still not fixed after 8 months. The FW missions were fixed in Dominion oh wait... After a year, kills ~~give Loyalty Points~~ may sometimes give LP but most of the time they don't. The FW plex spawn mechanics will be fixed ~~right after Apocrypha~~ Soon(TM). Alliances may participate in Factional Warfare ~~in Empyrean Age 1.2, Quantum Rise, Q1 2009, Right after Apocrypha~~, Someday. The CSM has raised the lack of development and bug fixes several times. I did, Erik did, Z0D will likely be raising this very topic as well. CCP just doesn't think FW is important. I wholeheartedly support this topic, and think BOTH the rats and these standing mechanics should be fixed. However, I have no illusion that CCP cares about, or even knows of, the near exploit tactics used to capture these systems which completely remove the pvp from factional warfare. As shown in the list of issues ankh listed. Minnie/amarr, enjoy the exploits and army of alts we've been dealing with for a long time now. I find your reply rather funny, considering we got the idea from Ankh and Val. We just made their methods public knowledge. Edit: something I hadnt realized I was the most important person to you guys in FW. That creating one alt would lead you to abandon your so dearly held principals and noble purposes. After all this was as Damar said '// A desperate measure on your parts....you absolutely had to do it .... As someone told me once... these are just excuses
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.07 06:30:00 - [129] Originally by: Dantalus Portos I cannot add much more than Gangleri has already set out. The decision by Gangleri and the Command staff of 1PG was actually quite easy to make. The news of systems falling makes us all feel very hollow at the moment after the many enjoyable and engaging battles we have had to date in FW. There is simply no nobility in what is currently happening. The use of the exploit is not welcome. Amarr Victor, but at what cost..? It;s quiet statements such as this that are the most significant not least because they do not seek the limelight, just what is right. Thx 1PG, you stand head and shoulders above your peers . o7 -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Jolla Skyia	Posted - 2009.12.07 06:51:00 - [130] Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 07/12/2009 06:55:55 Edited by: Jolla Skyia on 07/12/2009 06:55:33 Originally by: Damar Rocarion Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 05/12/2009 18:27:58 Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 17:56:24 Fully supported. And I know why this thread is here. It is because it is what we do in Matar space right now. However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is exploit or bug and would they mind if we used it against Matar. Answer was outright "No, go ahead". Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it. Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues. We dont belive Ankh's party would since she was happy to use this tactic. We are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs, this included which Gallente still uses against us, along with bug that causes friendly npc to open fire on friendly militia, also used by Gallente. Thank you. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General Translation.. We know we can't do it any other way so we have to use exploits that everyone knows is an exploit and everyone thinks is lame. Howevr because CCP says it's ok simple because they don't care about FW, we will do it. We will then come on the forums and support a proposed change because we know by the time CCP gets around to changing it we will already have taken all the system using it. This means we get another medal and can brag on the board saying how great we are.. Meanwhile we can turn around as say.. Hey we really supported the change.....
Eran Mintor Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 07:49:00 - [131] The way things are, occupany means nothing.... ...except to RPers. This is where I then give my thanks to 1PG for showing their non-support of this immersion-breaking mechanic. How are we supposed to RP this? "The Amarr-Minmatar front was in a deep stalemate until an armada of un-armed Caldari ships, who happened to bribe all our officials into setting the systems to vulnerable, decended upon our systems." Yet there's going to be IG repercussions for this. The Amarr will get a big pat on the back and the Empress will say they're amazing and Amarrians will feel great that they were able to piggy-back their way to victory thanks to an exploit. People who have put over a year of work into maintaining Minmatar occupancy are being slapped across the face by Damar & co. This mechanic was rarely, if ever used on the Minmatar-Amarr front. For the most part, we have maintained some honor for eachother. While FW is FUBAR, this is unacceptable. I have already spoken with Damar, and he tried to justify himself in every whichway possible. Justification is easy. I stole candy from a baby because I was hungry. If you choose to be an asswipe, you're not the first. You think this will make CCP change, it won't. FW is a small base of their players when juxtaposed to empire care-bears and 0.0 hermits. We are not even on their radar. There are Amarrians who still don't even know that it's thanks to you they've capped over 5 systems in the past 24 hrs. They don't stop to wonder why all of a sudden our systems have been heavily contested in a matter of hours, but blow up the bunkers cuz they think it's FW. (I should take this time to mention there needs to be a global notification to the home militia when their systems go vulnerable). Anyways, just wanted to let you know you've illegitimized this games RP and future PF for me. Thanks for acheiving a whole lot in terms of ruining my personal game experience. ------------------------------------------------
Merdaneth PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 07:52:00 - [132] FW has many oddities, bugs and poor game mechanics. The longer the game draws on (especially for those in FW a long time) they become more noticeable and more irritating. The Minmatar had the advantage of the speed tanking bug, while the Amarr had the advantage with the post-DT bug, while both could (and did) make use of the timer-bug. Since these strategies were effectively dictated by game mechanics they could not be countered through in-game means. Many players on both sides felt aggravated by these bugs, and felt justified in making use of them because they felt 'the other side both' gained an unfair advantage through use of these bugs. The 'standings' bug we are talking about here has existed since the beginning of FW. It is now a problem because of the industrial scale on which it is used. A scale with upset that delicate balance in the Amarr/Minmatar conflict. That is the problem. If an army of speed tanking alts had come out and started to capture Amarr plexes by the hundreds, I have no doubt the problem would be just as large. Such strategies are not simply not counterable within normal gameplay. FW has many large and interrelated problems, and I would like to see them solved, but I honestly think that as long as CCP sees us getting by with all these problems, they won't be motivated to change a thing. Perhaps it is time for this war to end. Perhaps stagnation will motivate CCP to undertake action. However, perhaps it will convince CCP to just abandon FW altogether and FW will end up as a kind of Red-vs-Blue with faction flavor and LP farming. That's a risk of the current strategy, but just plodding on isn't going to change anything. Having faction warfare being 'won' simply isn't good PR to convince newer players to join it, and those player experiences are what CCP cares about deeply. Us 'addicted' old vets will likely stay on anyway to CCP. I would vastly prefer a reset with new and more interesting mechanics rather than plodding on for years with tiny fixes to flawed warfare concepts. It's been fun, but its time for a good overhaul. IC for me it is simple, I follow orders, and unless my orders tell me to stop fighting I can't. Only reasonable way I have of not participating is not logging in or leaving my corp. People are angry, people are frustrated, people are disappointed. Let us not forget that dubious game mechanics are to blame for most of this, and not the people making use of them. I can no more be angry at Damar for using this (CCP approved) bug than angry at SF for selectively war-deccing militia corps or Matari plexers speed tanking Amarr plexes. I'm angry at CCP for allowing such mechanics in the first place and not doing anything about them for such a long time. I'm happy CCP solved the desync problems, but other than that I've not seen any significant positive changes to FW. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 08:06:00 - [133] Originally by: Eran Mintor The way things are, occupany means nothing.... ...except to RPers. Eran, I have not been able to properly RP many things in FW. How can I RP the order to find and 'capture' still cloaked friendly plexes in so called pile-up systems that are still uncontested? "Yes, go out and find and uncloak or secret defensive installations in systems that are not under attack'. Even the message from the navy (and lack of standings) says me that this defense was unneccessary, but from a in-game standpoint, it certainly was. "Yes sir, the mighty Amarr Empire has fallen to a swarm of unarmed Vigils in the hands of junior pod pilots" That's just as bad, however, but it is the reality. "Commander Merdaneth, your presence is required right after prayer time, if you are not there, you will never be able to assist us in capturing systems bunkers or fight decisive battles" I mean, wtf! Quote: People who have put over a year of work into maintaining Minmatar occupancy are being slapped across the face by Damar & co. This mechanic was rarely, if ever used on the Minmatar-Amarr front. For the most part, we have maintained some honor for eachother. They are slapped in the face by CCP. Damar is merely one bringing the bad news. It is difficult to wage a war dominated by faulty game mechanics in such a way that the warring parties need a kind of "gentleman's agreement" not to fully make use of the strategies available to them. Damar is angry at CCP for their lack of attention to FW, for their insistence clear gameplay gaffes are really 'working as intended', he, more than anything, wants to fight this FW war, although mechanics make it something of a farce. Would you think CCP would fix the one-click-alliance-disband button, if there wouldn't have been any scandals and uproar involving it? I don't believe Damar will achieve to get CCP to fix things on a short notice. Maybe he'll (and we through our anger and frustration at what his happening) will achieve CCP to hear the issues on the table. Maybe not, and in that case it will have been a bitter pill to swallow. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Noize Controller The Outside Agency	Posted - 2009.12.07 08:26:00 - [134] /supported . It's time for things to change. Seriously CCP... You are alone in this limbo and god is not here
Zagamesh Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2009.12.07 08:45:00 - [135] This has my support.
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.07 08:48:00 - [136] Edited by: Insa Rexion on 07/12/2009 08:48:54 Originally by: Merdaneth FW has many oddities, bugs and poor game mechanics. The longer the game draws on (especially for those in FW a long time) they become more noticeable and more irritating. The Minmatar had the advantage of the speed tanking bug, while the Amarr had the advantage with the post-DT bug, while both could (and did) make use of the timer-bug. Since these strategies were effectively dictated by game mechanics they could not be countered through in-game means. Many players on both sides felt aggravated by these bugs, and felt justified in making use of them because they felt 'the other side both' gained an unfair advantage through use of these bugs. The 'standings' bug we are talking about here has existed since the beginning of FW. It is now a problem because of the industrial scale on which it is used. A scale with upset that delicate balance in the Amarr/Minmatar conflict. That is the problem. If an army of speed tanking alts had come out and started to capture Amarr plexes by the hundreds, I have no doubt the problem would be just as large. Such strategies are not simply not counterable within normal gameplay. FW has many large and interrelated problems, and I would like to see them solved, but I honestly think that as long as CCP sees us getting by with all these problems, they won't be motivated to change a thing. Perhaps it is time for this war to end. Perhaps stagnation will motivate CCP to undertake action. However, perhaps it will convince CCP to just abandon FW altogether and FW will end up as a kind of Red-vs-Blue with faction flavor and LP farming. That's a risk of the current strategy, but just plodding on isn't going to change anything. Having faction warfare being 'won' simply isn't good PR to convince newer players to join it, and those player experiences are what CCP cares about deeply. Us 'addicted' old vets will likely stay on anyway to CCP. I would vastly prefer a reset with new and more interesting mechanics rather than plodding on for years with tiny fixes to flawed warfare concepts. It's been fun, but its time for a good overhaul. IC for me it is simple, I follow orders, and unless my orders tell me to stop fighting I can't. Only reasonable way I have of not participating is not logging in or leaving my corp. People are angry, people are frustrated, people are disappointed. Let us not forget that dubious game mechanics are to blame for most of this, and not the people making use of them. I can no more be angry at Damar for using this (CCP approved) bug than angry at SF for selectively war-deccing militia corps or Matari plexers speed tanking Amarr plexes. I'm angry at CCP for allowing such mechanics in the first place and not doing anything about them for such a long time. I'm happy CCP solved the desync problems, but other than that I've not seen any significant positive changes to FW. What a shame the rest of your corp don't see things the same way, one can hardly move on the IGS without stumbling into a post from a PIE pilot crowing about victories handed to them by the caldari using broken mechanics. It's really rather pathetic, perhaps you should tell them to take a leaf out 1PG's book if you want PIE to retain any credibilty after this debacle is over. -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Havohej Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.07 09:03:00 - [137] Originally by: Z0D I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs. If Caldari alts should be allowed to capture Minmatar plexes without Minmatar NPCs shooting at them, then I should be able to gank Badgers in Jita without CONCORD shooting at me. Supporting OP, plexing is completley broken with this 'feature' included. Du'uma Fiisi is Recruiting
Jakiin	Posted - 2009.12.07 09:05:00 - [138] It's an exploit. IC I love it, but OOC it's cheap. Do something CCP. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
A'rdan Vulpayne 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 09:14:00 - [139] Edited by: A''rdan Vulpayne on 07/12/2009 09:14:57 I think it is the time for a fast and particularly drastic response by CCP this time. Please dont take to much time to fix this predicament! Thank you! Recruiting!
Chell Charon The Seven's Low-Sec Securitas	Posted - 2009.12.07 09:42:00 - [140] OOC: Supported IC: Might be time to "poison the well" Commander Charon Of LS-S7
Lord Meriak Amarr Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:16:00 - [141] Bugs in game our never very good .. However let face it the mins have been using bugs from day1 of fw. timer bug most often used. The mins still have numbers over the amarr + other corp support. You can still plex and run them out like any other player. for now get on with it. You have also use player with good amarr standing in plex . but have been chased off. You have the chance to fleet up and take us out at bunkers as well. but as ever u dont. CRY MR A RIVER SOME WHERE ELSE
Tosi Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:19:00 - [142] Originally by: Val Erian I hadnt realized I was the most important person to you guys in FW. At least you have done something in gallente :) Originally by: Merdaneth I would vastly prefer a reset with new and more interesting mechanics rather than plodding on for years with tiny fixes to flawed warfare concepts. It's been fun, but its time for a good overhaul. This would be nice, but only after complete rehaul. but i wonder what would be roleplaying explanation :> ---- -Bad Messenger doesn't actually write on forums, the words assemble themselves out of fear. Mahooky Dowripple > I vote tosi for breakfast
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:24:00 - [143] PERVS, Damar and Emperor Throne Guards has never used any exploits. Using alt to defend is not an exploit. Using standing advantage may be lame but it is not an exploit. This standing thing is used on minmatar front in many different forms, especially by minmatar friends. You have to realize that those alts do not find plexes automatically, those must be controlled by player still. So capturing 6 systems in one day do need lot of effort and gametime from many players. So you can counter this by plexing defence plexes more than we do attack plexes or you can kill us all again and again. Problem is that no one cares to do boring part of fw. You want that you can keep systems sitting in station and undocking only when you get kills. That is not possible now on minmatar front, you have to do work, a lot of work and that is what Caldari does, nonstop plexing. Systems are not flipping because there is some 'bug', they are flipping because Caldari is attacking.
Helena C	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:35:00 - [144] Edited by: Helena C on 07/12/2009 11:35:34 Originally by: Nephilim Xeno this op is a bit too one sided in favour to the minmatar for me to support, maybe someone should make a more neutral issue. FW needs a complete overhaul. wardeccing, high sec security, plexes, missions and even system layout of the amarr/minamtar warzone. we need Faction Warfare MkII small fixes wont do much "Neutral" like your neutral alt whom remote reps you in every engagement? I'm sorry but you are one of the last people whom need to be speaking out against exploits.
Neo Gabriel Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:40:00 - [145] I know it's lame, but I am finding this situation awkwardly funny. A few guys with an army of ALT-TAB alts was able to quickly overturn the course of the war by using in-game mechanics. No exploiting, just playing the game by the rules CCP made. How's that for "gallente suxorz they lose all teh plex". And how BM said, its not like they are using bots, they have to control those alts. If there were enough people to counter their plexing after DT I'm sure you would be ok, RIGHT? Maybe minmatar are just lazy and don't like to plex because they don't have people dedicated enough to plexing, RIGHT? Deja'vu. This is the epitome of what is wrong with FW. We are waiting for CCP's response. Maybe someone should post a bug report on the Issues forum titled "FACTION WARFARE IS NOT WORKING HALP!11!".
Pol Macsliebh Minmatar Ridire Faolchu	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:46:00 - [146] Just fix it, Metagaming nosense
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:50:00 - [147] Hypocrisy is strong in any discussion about bugs. I have seen Amarrians use the standing bug before (but as Amarrians, not as Caldari, else I would have created such a thread before). I have seen Amarrians use the timer bug. I have seen Minmatar use the timer bug. I'm pretty sure there are Minmatar who have used the standing bug. And even our friend from PERVS is right: Just because you have a dozen alts running around your space in T1 fitted frigates for close to 9 hours a day does not mean all is lost. What makes it a lost cause is that plexing is such a damn boring thing against alts because it does not bring any useful fights. So those who do not have the "alt army" lose patience much, much faster. Not to mention that using (perceived) bugs in the system demotivates people even more than they already are. "Clever use of game mechanics", I think it's called. Does not make the standings issue any less of a ridiculous game mechanic. So please fix.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:53:00 - [148] I repeat: Make capturing a plex require destruction of all the navy in the plex. In one swoop - no speed tanking, no standings loophole, no timer bug. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.07 11:58:00 - [149] Originally by: Gangleri This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change. Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it. For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ...... And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits. Well, I have to admit I never really liked you guys but I have to give you hats off and props to this. It's too bad other corps whom are in the lime light with-in the Amarr Militia don't also stand up refuse to be part of this non sense. Corps that have openly supported these actions by joining in or RPing about the shallow victory's will always be remembered as just that. Shallow and weak. At least you guys have a bit of honor it appears, so hats off.
Inora Aknaria	Posted - 2009.12.07 12:05:00 - [150] Fix it b4 amarr/matari FW is ruined
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.07 12:22:00 - [151] Edited by: Ralnik on 07/12/2009 12:26:34 Originally by: Merdaneth Would you think CCP would fix the one-click-alliance-disband button, if there wouldn't have been any scandals and uproar involving it? Did CCP fix that? They did not fix it when it happened to BOB, they did not fix it when it happened to CVA. The only difference with CVA was CCP stood up and righted the wrong. On the flip side BOB lost their alliance yet it was not fixed even a year later as it did happen to CVA. What you guys are doing IMO is pretty much the same to FW as one man disbanding 0.0 alliance. You are ****ing in the work of what hundreds of players have done since FW started. As part of a RP corp you are even more guilty and at least 1PG made a stand and decided not to partake in this nonsense. It's sad to see your corp with the history it's had take part in something so selfish and childish.
Shockhead	Posted - 2009.12.07 12:31:00 - [152]
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.07 13:45:00 - [153] Gangleri, the stand by you and 1PG is highly admirable. Use/abuse of broken mechanics shouldn't be the determining factor in the factional warfare theatres. It is unfortunate that CCP has chosen to downplay or ignore the problems for so long, and while I have no expectation that they will act soon I am more than glad to add what support I can to the effort to get the developers to give factional warfare a higher priority in their backlog.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 13:52:00 - [154] -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Gahrian Ketar SoE Roughriders Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 13:54:00 - [155] /signed
Karagh The Wild Bunch Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 13:55:00 - [156]
MacaMan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.07 14:34:00 - [157] signed /sarcasm_start Fatsacks in ccp do not care for this "clever use of game mechanic" because "everything is fine on serverside" which shows that "logs indicate nothing out of order" and maybee we all should check "clients side" and yak-yak-yak.... copy/paste /sarcasm_end past is the best teacher as long as one is willing to learn... but some will never learn
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:00:00 - [158] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:07:20 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:00:55 Originally by: Jade Constantine Yes it is very disappointing to see PIE making RP propaganda mileage out these system captures achieved purely through the Caldari plexing technique. I admit I expected more from them on an OOC level. Oh come on now Jade. On an RP level, what are we meant to do when a system becomes vulnerable? Ignore it? We would be failing in our in character duty if we did so, and you would be the first to make capital out of it. OOC most of us think that the current mechanic sucks. But then we also think that the mechanic that allows the Minmatars to take a single Vigil into an Amarrian plex and capture it without sustaining a single point of damage sucks. And we think that the mechanic that causes the timer to keep running even when nobody is there sucks too. I mean, what's the point of changing things so that someone will get shot at by NPCs in the future if they still don't have to be there to be shot at? Remember - in character statements and actions do not neccessarily reflect out of character views and opinions. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:08:00 - [159] Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh come on now Jade. On an RP level, what are we meant to do when a system becomes vulnerable? [/quote Follow the example of 1PG and CVA in this very thread? Quote: We would be failing in our in character duty if we did so, and you would be the first to make capital out of it. No I wouldn't and if you think I would then it shows how little you really understand the motivations of your fellow eve players at the end of the day. Quote: OOC most of us think that the current mechanic sucks. Its a pathetic cheesy exploit that has already ruined the integrity of faction warfare and will destroy the Amarrian/Minmatar front and the enjoyment of many many players. You had an opportunity to take a principled stance but decided instead to IC showboat your "success" on the back of the most tawdry gaming of broken mechanics imaginable. Yes there are many problems with FW mechanics in general, but the system and integrity of the FW battle on your front did not collapse until you decided to cooperate with the Caldari exploiters and ruin the experience for all concerned. Yes I am sure that if you hadn't done it other people would have collaborated with these "spoilers" but the fact remains you were faced with an ethical choice and you choose wrongly. True Knowledge
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:20:00 - [160] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yes there are many problems with FW mechanics in general, but the system and integrity of the FW battle on your front did not collapse until you decided to cooperate with the Caldari exploiters and ruin the experience for all concerned. And my point is that who's to say that exactly the same thing wouldn't have happened had FW not had this standings issues? Because it would still have been possible to not even be in the plex and have the timer continue to run. And the latter has been a known bug for a very long time. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:26:00 - [161] Originally by: Rodj Blake And my point is that who's to say that exactly the same thing wouldn't have happened had FW not had this standings issues? Because it would still have been possible to not even be in the plex and have the timer continue to run. And the latter has been a known bug for a very long time. As far as I am aware that bug has been classified as an exploit by GM's and you can "counter it" by petitioning those using it. And both sides can have a gentleman's agreement not to cheat. Similar to the agreement I think you had until a week ago. True Knowledge
Cadirro DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:30:00 - [162] Supported. Though it might already be too late to undo the damage done.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:36:00 - [163] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:39:39 Originally by: Jade Constantine And both sides can have a gentleman's agreement not to cheat. Similar to the agreement I think you had until a week ago. I always thought that gentlemen's agreements were a bit "sandboxy" for you? What was it you once said? Oh yes: Quote: I want to give these sandboxista controlled militias a "near life experience" I want to burn them with lye; I want to destroy something beautiful and execute every panda that wouldn't screw to save its species. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:48:00 - [164] And here was me thinking that the Jade/Rodj love spat was all IC. Seriously, chill fellas. We're all on the same side on this one. Simplest solution: Make destroying all navy in the plex a prerequisite for plex capture. Goodbye speed tanking, goodbye standings loopholes. Intermediary solution: CCP declares the standings loophole an exploit. Same as abusing the timer bug already is. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
EVIL SYNNs Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:53:00 - [165] Originally by: Kade Jeekin And here was me thinking that the Jade/Rodj love spat was all IC. Seriously, chill fellas. We're all on the same side on this one. Simplest solution: Make destroying all navy in the plex a prerequisite for plex capture. Goodbye speed tanking, goodbye standings loopholes. Intermediary solution: CCP declares the standings loophole an exploit. Same as abusing the timer bug already is. PERFECT!
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:55:00 - [166] Originally by: Kade Jeekin Simplest solution: Make destroying all navy in the plex a prerequisite for plex capture. Goodbye speed tanking, goodbye standings loopholes. That would certainly be a good solution. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.07 15:55:00 - [167] Edited by: Ralnik on 07/12/2009 15:58:11 Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:07:20 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:00:55 Originally by: Jade Constantine Yes it is very disappointing to see PIE making RP propaganda mileage out these system captures achieved purely through the Caldari plexing technique. I admit I expected more from them on an OOC level. Oh come on now Jade. On an RP level, what are we meant to do when a system becomes vulnerable? Ignore it? We would be failing in our in character duty if we did so, and you would be the first to make capital out of it. OOC most of us think that the current mechanic sucks. But then we also think that the mechanic that allows the Minmatars to take a single Vigil into an Amarrian plex and capture it without sustaining a single point of damage sucks. And we think that the mechanic that causes the timer to keep running even when nobody is there sucks too. I mean, what's the point of changing things so that someone will get shot at by NPCs in the future if they still don't have to be there to be shot at? Remember - in character statements and actions do not neccessarily reflect out of character views and opinions. I think 1PG have set a pretty good example as to what a corp such as yours should be doing in this situation. Maybe you should look back to a few weeks ago when your fellow CVA friends fell victim to a game exploit which caused their entire alliance to collapse, undoing the work that had gone into it from many years. While I will admit, I did get a good laugh at it as did most of us, but even within the Minmatar Militia we thought the way it was done was wrong and I'm pretty sure it was a general belief that we supported righting the wrong by CCP. Many people despite their disagreements or even hate for CVA came out and supported them because what was done was wrong. More so the ability to do what was done happened due to faulty game mechanics. This is much the same case. You are supporting the undermining of countless people's work just to gain a little bit of satisfaction with a forum post in IGS. Is your honor and your corp's reputation really only worth a few chest thumping posts in the IGS forums? When CVA was disbanded many people put aside their RP to show support which likely helped push CCP in the direction of righting the wrong and not just letting them fall to the same fate as BOB did. Your corp could also put your RP to the side and stop supporting thee ill gotten fake gains. What you are doing is wrong, and what you are doing will forever stain your corp reputation.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 16:02:00 - [168] There's a slight difference between this and the CVA disolution, in that the former is a result of flawed mechanics that have been known about for some time and some of our opponents have apparently themselves used in the past, whilst the later was the result of out of game hacking activities. If it's any consolation, look at where the recently fallen systems are on the map. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.07 16:06:00 - [169] Originally by: Rodj Blake There's a slight difference between this and the CVA disolution, in that the former is a result of flawed mechanics that have been known about for some time and some of our opponents have apparently themselves used in the past, whilst the later was the result of out of game hacking activities. If it's any consolation, look at where the recently fallen systems are on the map. There is no difference. There is only a question of right or wrong. You know what you are doing is wrong, regardless of what you wish to call it.
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.07 16:14:00 - [170] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:07:20 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 15:00:55 Originally by: Jade Constantine Yes it is very disappointing to see PIE making RP propaganda mileage out these system captures achieved purely through the Caldari plexing technique. I admit I expected more from them on an OOC level. Oh come on now Jade. On an RP level, what are we meant to do when a system becomes vulnerable? Ignore it? Yes, 1PG were dignified enough to do exactly that. Originally by: Rodj Blake We would be failing in our in character duty if we did so, and you would be the first to make capital out of it. OOC most of us think that the current mechanic sucks. But then we also think that the mechanic that allows the Minmatars to take a single Vigil into an Amarrian plex and capture it without sustaining a single point of damage sucks. And we think that the mechanic that causes the timer to keep running even when nobody is there sucks too. I mean, what's the point of changing things so that someone will get shot at by NPCs in the future if they still don't have to be there to be shot at? Remember - in character statements and actions do not neccessarily reflect out of character views and opinions. Sorry but you seem to be implying that your RPing actually controls your actions, you make it sound like some debilitating disease FFS. "well we could have chosen not to shoot those bunkers, but as you know, we suffer from "role playing syndrome" and as such are completely unable to control any actions of our in game character" You sound about as credible as a NPC Republic Fleet officer explaining why he was unable to shoot at a Caldari plexer. Shpooting the bunkers was one thing, I could almost understand a couple of them getting shot from excitement/misundersatnding, but you shot ALL of them and them you all crowed about it (IC ofc) on the IGS. How convenient to have the plausible denial of OOC statements saying you don't support this tactic but still get to indulge yourself in "yay we won lulz" comment on IGS. If RPing really does control you to this extent, I suggest you visit a head doctor or perhaps an exorcist (in game of course) -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 16:23:00 - [171] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 16:25:21 Originally by: Insa Rexion Sorry but you seem to be implying that your RPing actually controls your actions, you make it sound like some debilitating disease FFS. "well we could have chosen not to shoot those bunkers, but as you know, we suffer from "role playing syndrome" and as such are completely unable to control any actions of our in game character" You sound about as credible as a NPC Republic Fleet officer explaining why he was unable to shoot at a Caldari plexer. Shpooting the bunkers was one thing, I could almost understand a couple of them getting shot from excitement/misundersatnding, but you shot ALL of them and them you all crowed about it (IC ofcRolling Eyes) on the IGS. How convenient to have the plausible denial of OOC statements saying you don't support this tactic but still get to indulge yourself in "yay we won lulz" comment on IGS. If RPing really does control you to this extent, I suggest you visit a head doctor or perhaps an exorcist (in game of course) That's sort of what RPing is - having your character do the things that your character would do. And yes, my character does have different views on things to the real-life me. You may be surprised to hear that I don't support slavery in RL. But really, I fail to see what PIE's in-game response to the issue has to do with the actual problem(s) that this topic is about. You'll notice that I actually agree that the current mechanic is a problem that needs to be addressed. You'll even notice a thumbs up from me in this thread. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.07 16:31:00 - [172] Edited by: Ralnik on 07/12/2009 16:34:58 Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 16:25:21 Originally by: Insa Rexion Sorry but you seem to be implying that your RPing actually controls your actions, you make it sound like some debilitating disease FFS. "well we could have chosen not to shoot those bunkers, but as you know, we suffer from "role playing syndrome" and as such are completely unable to control any actions of our in game character" You sound about as credible as a NPC Republic Fleet officer explaining why he was unable to shoot at a Caldari plexer. Shpooting the bunkers was one thing, I could almost understand a couple of them getting shot from excitement/misundersatnding, but you shot ALL of them and them you all crowed about it (IC ofcRolling Eyes) on the IGS. How convenient to have the plausible denial of OOC statements saying you don't support this tactic but still get to indulge yourself in "yay we won lulz" comment on IGS. If RPing really does control you to this extent, I suggest you visit a head doctor or perhaps an exorcist (in game of course) That's sort of what RPing is - having your character do the things that your character would do. And yes, my character does have different views on things to the real-life me. You may be surprised to hear that I don't support slavery in RL. But really, I fail to see what PIE's in-game response to the issue has to do with the actual problem(s) that this topic is about. You'll notice that I actually agree that the current mechanic is a problem that needs to be addressed. You'll even notice a thumbs up from me in this thread. Then that sir makes you a hypocrite. You are saying you will gladly take the benefits of using this game breaking exploit, but will publicly claim it should be changed, so no one else can take advantage of it. In others words, it's cool for you guys to use, but CCP should defiantly fix this, so it can't be used against you. Meanwhile you know they likely won't fix it before you guys are done using it. This all works out very well for you.
Wayward Daughter Swords of the Righteous	Posted - 2009.12.07 17:01:00 - [173] Supported.
Kaldor Mintat Nomads Of Eve	Posted - 2009.12.07 17:37:00 - [174] Supported. Although not really any hope this will be fixed as these problems have been known a long time. My bet is on FW being mostly LP farming ground in a few months time anyway. The whole system is rotten to the core.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 17:41:00 - [175] People, please. I know frustration and anger levels are high, but this is not a 'who is to blame thread' neither a 'lets condemn some people' thread, let us not turn it into one. There are issues with FW mechanics, all people agree that they need to be solved, and be solved soon rather than late. That we don't agree on is what to do in the interim. But that is not the issue under debate here. Also, I believe the issue of what to do in the interim is interlinked with many other FW issues. Please start another thread or get people together in-game to discuss a solution for the meantime, but placing blame in this thread certainly isn't going to solve the problem. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.07 18:07:00 - [176] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/12/2009 16:25:21 Originally by: Insa Rexion Sorry but you seem to be implying that your RPing actually controls your actions, you make it sound like some debilitating disease FFS. "well we could have chosen not to shoot those bunkers, but as you know, we suffer from "role playing syndrome" and as such are completely unable to control any actions of our in game character" You sound about as credible as a NPC Republic Fleet officer explaining why he was unable to shoot at a Caldari plexer. Shpooting the bunkers was one thing, I could almost understand a couple of them getting shot from excitement/misundersatnding, but you shot ALL of them and them you all crowed about it (IC ofcRolling Eyes) on the IGS. How convenient to have the plausible denial of OOC statements saying you don't support this tactic but still get to indulge yourself in "yay we won lulz" comment on IGS. If RPing really does control you to this extent, I suggest you visit a head doctor or perhaps an exorcist (in game of course) That's sort of what RPing is - having your character do the things that your character would do. And yes, my character does have different views on things to the real-life me. You may be surprised to hear that I don't support slavery in RL. But really, I fail to see what PIE's in-game response to the issue has to do with the actual problem(s) that this topic is about. You'll notice that I actually agree that the current mechanic is a problem that needs to be addressed. You'll even notice a thumbs up from me in this thread. oh gimme a break... "I really don't want the caldari to ruin the Amarr/Minnie battlefront, but OMG there's nothing I can do to stop my character capitalizing on caldari abuse of broken mechanics and then crowing about it on IGS ... he's out of control !!11!" Isn't it time you realized that even from an RP perspective, this situation is massively broken and you should take a step back from it ? -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.12.07 18:22:00 - [177] The blame game also achieves very little - it's like arguing over the result of a rigged match... duh, it was rigged! The outcome is irrelevant, because you can never know what would have actually happened in 'fair/balanced' circumstances. It renders the actual effort of those not using inappropriate tactics/bugs/exploits/call-it-what-you-will also irrelevant because you're no longer comparing apples and apples. Arguably the current 'victories', for any side, are null & void. Nobody seems to be arguing that the current situation is correct - therefore the situation needs addressing. The only reasonable way to do that is to fix the problems & start again. Compare it to the moon-goo exploit - CCP didn't say 'well, we've discovered the problem now and fixed it, but the ill gotten gains are ok' - they removed the ill gotten gains (they pretty much couldn't fix the economic impacts, but lets not wander off-topic..). CCP can find reason to fix the problems and reset occupancy, along with preferably giving occupancy meaning and all the other requests for FW's improvements. That's what we should be asking for, not getting distracted by blaming each other. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.07 19:15:00 - [178] Edited by: Insa Rexion on 07/12/2009 19:15:49 Sorry but trying to claim you are still against this is like seeing the opposition football team all held at gun point but then still deciding to shoot at goal, while saying you disapprove - you can't have both. If you want ppl to actually believe that you are actually opposed to this mechanic then you should STOP ENGAGING IN IT. It's pretty damned clear cut -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Neu Bastian Minmatar Valklear Guard	Posted - 2009.12.07 20:04:00 - [179] extra bunker HP can't hurt, either Quote: Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 20:26:00 - [180] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 07/12/2009 20:26:18 Originally by: Neu Bastian extra bunker HP can't hurt, either I replied in the other thread, which is about FW as a whole.
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.07 23:06:00 - [181] Rodj or anyone else from PIE can't really make a statement similar to the one made made by 1PG for a very simple reason: We do not offensive plex except on rare occassions. Our primary task has been to hold the line as best we could. A vast majority of our time is spent clearing the debris after the vigil's/rifters of doom has passed through friendly space IC there is no way to speak out against reclaiming of systems without instantly commiting treason/heresy, or that is to say I can not think of any way to spin it. ----- It is a crummy mechanic that's for sure, but look at the bright side .. blood finally started to boil .. We as players need to be feverish and drooling like rabid dogs to make CCP take notice. FW has been puttering along with all the game breaking features because we have lacked the the massive outcry necessary .. we plexers/RP'ers have been ridiculed in every thread raising the issues going back over eighteen months. PS: Timer abuse is not an exploit as far as I am aware, properly merely frowned upon. CCP has a very poor track-record when it comes to making that declaration and seem to only make it when they have the bug/mechanic nailed and merely waiting for the code to compile. THIS is the only list I know of with actual notifications .. hardly extensive.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.07 23:38:00 - [182] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida PS: Timer abuse is not an exploit as far as I am aware, properly merely frowned upon. It is considered an exploit and petitionable. I have asked explicitly that question via petition, got a "yes, it's an exploit" back, and have petitioned a few pilots for it.
Djan Shilde Vitharr's Vengeance	Posted - 2009.12.07 23:45:00 - [183] Supported. FW has a number of flawed game mechanics as others have mentioned, the implications of this particular one I feel will result in the failure of this piece of content. Time to take a serious look at faction war again CCP, and to take onboard suggestions from the players who actually enjoy playing the FW game as it is intended.
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.08 00:50:00 - [184] Edited by: Ralnik on 08/12/2009 00:52:46 Originally by: Astria Tiphareth The blame game also achieves very little - it's like arguing over the result of a rigged match... duh, it was rigged! The outcome is irrelevant, because you can never know what would have actually happened in 'fair/balanced' circumstances. It renders the actual effort of those not using inappropriate tactics/bugs/exploits/call-it-what-you-will also irrelevant because you're no longer comparing apples and apples. Arguably the current 'victories', for any side, are null & void. Nobody seems to be arguing that the current situation is correct - therefore the situation needs addressing. The only reasonable way to do that is to fix the problems & start again. Compare it to the moon-goo exploit - CCP didn't say 'well, we've discovered the problem now and fixed it, but the ill gotten gains are ok' - they removed the ill gotten gains (they pretty much couldn't fix the economic impacts, but lets not wander off-topic..). CCP can find reason to fix the problems and reset occupancy, along with preferably giving occupancy meaning and all the other requests for FW's improvements. That's what we should be asking for, not getting distracted by blaming each other. The blame game is all we have at this point until CCP decides to stand up and do something about it. All long as corps like PIE continue to support this actions by RPing around them then yes they are part of the blame. We also "DO" know what would have happened if it were not used. They never would have captured the systems they got so fast. Proof is in the pudding in the fact they couldn't do it before this game breaking exploit was used.
Neo Gabriel Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.08 01:15:00 - [185] Who can we contact of the Dev team so they give a response about this? I don't like much the idea of waiting and see what happens, because it might just not.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.08 02:07:00 - [186] Originally by: Neo Gabriel Who can we contact of the Dev team so they give a response about this? I don't like much the idea of waiting and see what happens, because it might just not. You're not supposed to swamp the devs with stuff. I've already forwarded as much relevant info to the relevant people as I could. If there are details you think they should know, you can of course mail it to me. --- Click banner for info!
Lost InCogneto	Posted - 2009.12.08 06:09:00 - [187] Anger, tears and frustration is what I hear from the Minmatar and is what Amarr has been dealing with for well over a year. You wonder why the Amarr vs Minmatar front has been stagnant well here it is à I have been in the FW for 1 + years I have seen the good times and the bad times I have seen our systems fall and reclaimed. Our systems had fallen with speed due to loop holes and crushing numbers from the Minmatar, for those that remember Outbreak, RKK, Dark and despite Amarr complaining about FW mechanics we did what needed to be done and worked hard to reclaim them. These loop holes that you talk about are the same loop holes that the Minmatar have been using for well over a year. The standing bug is in essence the same as a T1 frigate speed tanking all Amarr plexes, there is no risk. Your generals were even paid isk incentives by neutral supporters to plex, not asking how the VP were taken not caring if they were taken using loop holes but paid non the less. Amarr corporations invested months of time and isk to set up staging areas to assault your systems getting them close to falling only to have your tribals use loop holes to destroy months work in a matter of a day with loop holes. To move plexes from uncontested systems to a contested system is a valid tactic but to cap 10 of them using 1 ship using the timer bug in a 20 min period is a loop hole. In desperate times during war you did what needed to be done. We complained but still went on fighting. The same moral high ground that you ask Amarr to take and the majority have is the sword that has stagnated this war. While using these loop holes you laughed at our morals and corporations, but now, you stand there asking once again, praising those corporations like 1PG the same ones you laughed at. Do not presume to stand the moral high ground on what is happening to your systems. When it is your own doing that has caused the harshest response, tactics that you have been using that has now turned against you. For the first time in the war you systems are falling and you are now on the back foot just like Amarr has been, how will you respond? As stated by many in the Minmatar and neutral supporters you need to do what Amarr did and fight and drive off the invaders. I do not believe Minmatar will just give up. I expect this post will not sit well and only inflame your anger but needed to be said. And I hope that now that all this is out that some good will now come for FW.
Wallinstar	Posted - 2009.12.08 06:21:00 - [188] Supported of course.
Ralnik Mutineers	Posted - 2009.12.08 08:34:00 - [189] Edited by: Ralnik on 08/12/2009 08:36:42 Originally by: Lost InCogneto Anger, tears and frustration is what I hear from the Minmatar and is what Amarr has been dealing with for well over a year. You wonder why the Amarr vs Minmatar front has been stagnant well here it is à I have been in the FW for 1 + years I have seen the good times and the bad times I have seen our systems fall and reclaimed. Our systems had fallen with speed due to loop holes and crushing numbers from the Minmatar, for those that remember Outbreak, RKK, Dark and despite Amarr complaining about FW mechanics we did what needed to be done and worked hard to reclaim them. These loop holes that you talk about are the same loop holes that the Minmatar have been using for well over a year. The standing bug is in essence the same as a T1 frigate speed tanking all Amarr plexes, there is no risk. Your generals were even paid isk incentives by neutral supporters to plex, not asking how the VP were taken not caring if they were taken using loop holes but paid non the less. Amarr corporations invested months of time and isk to set up staging areas to assault your systems getting them close to falling only to have your tribals use loop holes to destroy months work in a matter of a day with loop holes. To move plexes from uncontested systems to a contested system is a valid tactic but to cap 10 of them using 1 ship using the timer bug in a 20 min period is a loop hole. In desperate times during war you did what needed to be done. We complained but still went on fighting. The same moral high ground that you ask Amarr to take and the majority have is the sword that has stagnated this war. While using these loop holes you laughed at our morals and corporations, but now, you stand there asking once again, praising those corporations like 1PG the same ones you laughed at. Do not presume to stand the moral high ground on what is happening to your systems. When it is your own doing that has caused the harshest response, tactics that you have been using that has now turned against you. For the first time in the war you systems are falling and you are now on the back foot just like Amarr has been, how will you respond? As stated by many in the Minmatar and neutral supporters you need to do what Amarr did and fight and drive off the invaders. I do not believe Minmatar will just give up. I expect this post will not sit well and only inflame your anger but needed to be said. And I hope that now that all this is out that some good will now come for FW. Crushing numbers is not a loop hole nor is it an exploit. Speed tanking is also "not" a exploit as you Amarr continually whine about it. Speed tanking DPS is in fact one of Minmatar ships active tanking systems. Our shields are not strong like Caldri's and our Armor is not strong like Amarr ships. We have a mix of both and added ability to negate damage by speed tanking. This is not a exploit, just like having a Caldri or Amarr ship sit there and tank the DPS is not an exploit. The best part about this, is I see amarr doing speed tanking in plexes all the time. Yet where are you to complain about that? You are your Amarrios are just riding on the coat tails of the Caldari and exploiting your way to system capture that you would have never gotten any other way.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.08 09:05:00 - [190] Originally by: Ralnik Crushing numbers is not a loop hole nor is it an exploit. Speed tanking is also "not" a exploit as you Amarr continually whine about it. Speed tanking DPS is in fact one of Minmatar ships active tanking systems. If the Caldari had come in and used Vigils to speed tank the plexes with poorly skilled alts instead of standing tanking the plexes, would it have been ok? Because if it would be possible to speed tank Matari plexes so easily, the outcome would have been the same. However, unlike most Amarr plexes, you cannot speed tank Matari plexes with poorly skilled alts. The problem with the plexing mechanic is that the most efficient way to do it is have an alt semi-afk capture it. Timers are stupid, being able to capture without fighting is stupid, plexing favoring doing it when no hostiles are nearby is stupid. The system is poorly designed, period. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.08 09:15:00 - [191] Originally by: Merdaneth If the Caldari had come in and used Vigils to speed tank the plexes with poorly skilled alts instead of standing tanking the plexes, would it have been ok? You greatly overestimate the famed solo-plexing Vigil. :-) E.g. it can't really do minors solo (takes ages), you can't really be afk (sometimes it doesn't work), etc. You also underestimate the ability of a crusader to solo capture Minmatar complexes. I have seen them do it. It works. (No, I do not claim that it's "just as easy". No, I do not claim that it's ok as it is.) Neither is comparable to just put your alt there and sit afk. You can AB to some of them for 70km and blow them up, only to get the first reaction a minute later. They aren't watching the screen for most part. THAT is why they can plex with around 8 alts at once (one has to admire the dedication, though). Besides, all it takes are two ships instead of one to tank any plex. Not that much more difficult. Why hasn't it been done before? This whole "look, even WITHOUT this bug, we would have won now" is highly annoying and nothing but trying to avoid the sour taste of this victory. You can not have both I'm afraid. Had PERVS decided to go to Amarr space, Amarr would have lost just as fast, just as much, just as unreasonably - not because losing systems is bad, but because this game mechanic is borked. Quote: The problem with the plexing mechanic is that the most efficient way to do it is have an alt semi-afk capture it. This. Quote: The system is poorly designed, period. And this. Let's stop talking around it.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.08 10:13:00 - [192] Also, this thread started before any system in Metropolis fell, as an attempt to raise all NPC-related issues to the CSM. Including the different power levels of the NPCs, as you can see in the first post. The power levels are being addressed. Hopefully, the rest is as well.
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.08 10:37:00 - [193] Originally by: Ralnik Edited by: Ralnik on 08/12/2009 08:36:42 Originally by: Lost InCogneto Anger, tears and frustration is what I hear from the Minmatar and is what Amarr has been dealing with for well over a year. You wonder why the Amarr vs Minmatar front has been stagnant well here it is à I have been in the FW for 1 + years I have seen the good times and the bad times I have seen our systems fall and reclaimed. Our systems had fallen with speed due to loop holes and crushing numbers from the Minmatar, for those that remember Outbreak, RKK, Dark and despite Amarr complaining about FW mechanics we did what needed to be done and worked hard to reclaim them. These loop holes that you talk about are the same loop holes that the Minmatar have been using for well over a year. The standing bug is in essence the same as a T1 frigate speed tanking all Amarr plexes, there is no risk. Your generals were even paid isk incentives by neutral supporters to plex, not asking how the VP were taken not caring if they were taken using loop holes but paid non the less. Amarr corporations invested months of time and isk to set up staging areas to assault your systems getting them close to falling only to have your tribals use loop holes to destroy months work in a matter of a day with loop holes. To move plexes from uncontested systems to a contested system is a valid tactic but to cap 10 of them using 1 ship using the timer bug in a 20 min period is a loop hole. In desperate times during war you did what needed to be done. We complained but still went on fighting. The same moral high ground that you ask Amarr to take and the majority have is the sword that has stagnated this war. While using these loop holes you laughed at our morals and corporations, but now, you stand there asking once again, praising those corporations like 1PG the same ones you laughed at. Do not presume to stand the moral high ground on what is happening to your systems. When it is your own doing that has caused the harshest response, tactics that you have been using that has now turned against you. For the first time in the war you systems are falling and you are now on the back foot just like Amarr has been, how will you respond? As stated by many in the Minmatar and neutral supporters you need to do what Amarr did and fight and drive off the invaders. I do not believe Minmatar will just give up. I expect this post will not sit well and only inflame your anger but needed to be said. And I hope that now that all this is out that some good will now come for FW. Crushing numbers is not a loop hole nor is it an exploit. Speed tanking is also "not" a exploit as you Amarr continually whine about it. Speed tanking DPS is in fact one of Minmatar ships active tanking systems. Our shields are not strong like Caldri's and our Armor is not strong like Amarr ships. We have a mix of both and added ability to negate damage by speed tanking. This is not a exploit, just like having a Caldri or Amarr ship sit there and tank the DPS is not an exploit. The best part about this, is I see amarr doing speed tanking in plexes all the time. Yet where are you to complain about that? You are your Amarrios are just riding on the coat tails of the Caldari and exploiting your way to system capture that you would have never gotten any other way. Using standing to avoid agro is not exploit either. It is working as intended. So claiming that caldari exploit is not true, Caldari has never exploited and will not exploit. So i am asking you to stop these false accusations. Truth is that minmatar uses same tricks every day in caldari front, smaller scale though. You should just find out what your own people does before you start to shout about exploiters and such.
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.08 10:50:00 - [194] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Besides, all it takes are two ships instead of one to tank any plex. Not that much more difficult. Why hasn't it been done before? This was used by caldari on gallete complexes quite often, maybe not by alts but by mains. Originally by: Arkady Sadik Had PERVS decided to go to Amarr space, Amarr would have lost just as fast, just as much, just as unreasonably - not because losing systems is bad, but because this game mechanic is borked. In fact it would be easier to us. We have right standing on our mains so no need for alts. But with our standing we cant join gallente side and i am sure there is no one existing gallente corp who would take PERVS in their corp And Gallente is so full of losers that why would we do it for them? Amarr has been our supporter on tough moments. And minmatar criminals hoarders all the time in caldari space raping our women and eating our children so we want to stop that now.
Vlad Konstantinov PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.08 10:54:00 - [195] Supported, bad game designs need to go. Pity about the whining and finger-pointing though. It's not a bug. It's working as intended. So: game mechanics need to be improved. ---
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:00:00 - [196] Originally by: Bad Messenger Originally by: Arkady Sadik Besides, all it takes are two ships instead of one to tank any plex. Not that much more difficult. Why hasn't it been done before? This was used by caldari on gallete complexes quite often, maybe not by alts but by mains. Yep. Like all "clever uses of game mechanics" - they have been used before. What makes this different from all the other cases is that you PERVS put a lot more dedication and time into it than anyone else has so far. Which brings out all the bad parts of the game design: The game mechanics mean that the most effective way to "capture" systems in FW is to semi-afk plexes on a large scale, something you do while your (player) attention is somewhere else. The simple fact on the Amarr/Minmatar front is that both sides had trouble getting "sufficient plexing" done, and the defensive plexing was barely enough to keep up with single dedicated attempts (AB-C in Metropolis, Arzad in Amarr space) before either side just gave up because of the silliness of plexing. Both sides have had their rationalization for their lack of success. Minmatar have the "well, can't keep a system without post-DT superiority", Amarr have the "well, what do you do against the uber-Vigil-of-doom" - both problems real, but workable with. Both sides get frustrated with the silly mechanics. Both sides use outright exploits (such as bugging timers - it was awesome to close a plex in an empty system while five others around me closed for the enemy). So far, both sides did this apparently in roughly the same amount, as neither side managed to skew it in their favor. What broke this delicate balance of "can't be arsed to do more" was a group of people who put in a lot of time and dedication into plexing. This was helped by using a silly game mechanic (and can't blame them for it) which demotivated and demoralized the defenders even more. It's sufficiently proven that FW is completely and utterly broken. The mechanics encourage a game style that can not be what CCP intended with the game, and even those silly game mechanics have so many bugs it's not funny anymore. Now, please stop blaming each other for being "bad players". It's a game. Let's get the game designer to fix it, and not bite each other for playing the game the best way we can.
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:11:00 - [197] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Originally by: Veshta Yoshida PS: Timer abuse is not an exploit as far as I am aware, properly merely frowned upon. It is considered an exploit and petitionable. I have asked explicitly that question via petition, got a "yes, it's an exploit" back, and have petitioned a few pilots for it. It is an exploit but it was rarely used intentional from either Minmatar or Amarr side during the war. Until now. Fact was that if you were running a timer and forced to jump out of the plex the timer sometimes kept running. We tested the issue and found no way to force it to happen. Maybe some have found a way. This bug is ugly and needs to be fixed but I personally never accused the Amarr working with it. And even now with those mindless Caldaridrones exploiting the mechanic I am not sure that they use it intentionally. But of cause it might be the case. On the other hand the S-Pervs won't need each 6 alts to sit on the buttons if they would. So this is an ennoying bug but I don't know anyone that is using it intentionally. Funny that we found a lot of running timers in Amarr space when looking for offensive plexes. But I don't turn that against Amarr plexers for I know that that ****ty timers sometimes are keeping running when you have to warp out. But has to be fixed. Urgently. How difficult can that be?! if(NOT ENTITY IN GRID) {timer(stop);} Have I do to have to write the damn code to show how it is fixed?! -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Juren Coda	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:22:00 - [198] supported
Alica Wildfire Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:35:00 - [199] Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 08/12/2009 12:40:12 Originally by: Ralnik If the Caldari had come in and used Vigils to speed tank the plexes with poorly skilled alts instead of standing tanking the plexes, would it have been ok? Because if it would be possible to speed tank Matari plexes so easily, the outcome would have been the same. However, unlike most Amarr plexes, you cannot speed tank Matari plexes with poorly skilled alts. You can not speedtank Amarr plexes with poorly skilled characters or Vigils either. I am the one who originally designed the Plex-Vigil for Minmatar. And I know the limits of this vessel best. You need damn good skills for that you can't do it afk, you have to correct your fight path by hand and even then it can happen that you have to warp out the last minutes without ever be able to close that damn thing. It's something that can't be done afk. Au contraire mon ami. You need a lot of skill as a player and you got to be sharp every second. It's something that can't be done with 6 alts at a time. It's something that can be done in Matari plexes with Punishers and Crusaders too. I've seen it. So. Let's drop that. What is true is that the NPC are bad balanced, worst case are the Caldari NPC which are insane. The design is poor. But don't blame the Vigil for all this. The Vigil is a good vessel. But it has strong weaknesses too. And those who use it are not those who know the mechanism of speedtanking best. Believe me. I know them well and I know their damn limits. And I don't use the Vigil for it is not the reason I'm out there. I use the Rifter instead. As the Amarr prefer the Punisher for that. I don't think every NPC should be the same. There should be some racial differences. BUT the NPC at the moment are insanely unbalanced. I don't think the Amarr/Minmatar are too much but the Gallente/Caldari are laughable unbalanced. But by the way, CCP should work on all. Before you can speedtank an Amarr plex you are almost on the level of flying interceptors. I tried it as a lowskilled pilot and only achieved it a week before I was ready for ceptors. Which is a skilltime about - how long? Five months? You can do L4 Missions in a Ceptor. I do when I want to have some fun. Why should an enemy plex be harder like that? No. I don't think so. And the chaff about speedtanking is just a minor point that has to be fixed. The most urgent point is a FAST fix of this standing issue. And after that an overhaul of the whole FW. Because this breaks the game. It breaks the roleplay. It makes the whole conflict Minmatar/Amarr a farce. And I take the exploit of this mechanism personal. Indeed. That's just griefing. I'm not in the age to really enrage myself about this. For it's a kids way to play a game. You don't go and beat up little children that do not know better. But I stopped to take them serious. For me everybody that is joining this stupid exploid is voiding his position for me to take anything he does or says serious. More serious than the talk of a child. And this is something I regret. I was thinking better of the majority of Amarr playerbase than to fall for such cheap tricks and even support these Caldari griefers in destroying the whole factional warfare. Be serious: "We do it to make CCP listen." Do you believe this? I don't think you do, for even now I have left a rest of respect for your intelligence. It's just childish play of kids that try to grief. Nothing more. And what we Minmatar do at the moment is go and spank their alts where we catch them, have some fun doing this and ignore their follies. We don't plex. I don't plex anymore. Sasawong doesn't and most of the other. Some remain in the fight. Yes. And I honour this. It's just I can't. I don't play games on childish behaviour and let me dictacte rules. If you would play a game of chess with me and you leave the room for a minute you can be safe that I didn't touched the pieces to "win" the game. Because only a unmature child would do this. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
Bad Messenger Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:41:00 - [200] I did some testing before operation and managed to speedtank amarr major plex with 60k sp alt in executioner. I do not say that you can tank all plexes with low sp alt but some of those yes.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:51:00 - [201] Originally by: Bad Messenger I did some testing before operation and managed to speedtank amarr major plex with 60k sp alt in executioner. I do not say that you can tank all plexes with low sp alt but some of those yes. I can totally believe that - the larger plexes are easier to speed-tank than the smaller ones because often, they don't spawn smaller ships at all. Even the missiles from the Minmatar NPC BS do very little damage if you are moving fast. The idea of spawning frigates in larger plexes has been brought up very early in FW, and was put down because according to CCP, NPCs are only meant to serve as a distraction in case no players show up. Which is quite silly considering the vast differences in NPC power levels and ewar strengths (amarr TDs are pretty bad for PvP, btw, just not as easy to notice as ECM). Luckily, as Z0D pointed out, this is being addressed by the CSM already (see first post). Let's hope the rest is, too.
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.12.08 13:04:00 - [202] Good job guys! PERVS are getting attention on stupid plex mechanics and others delivering this attention to CCP. Hopefully we are moving towards a factional warfare upgrade. Removal of fw missions and lp rewards for plexing! Fights in plexes! Heroic fights to death to save planets and stations from being occupied! Massive front line warfare! Keep on it!!!
Gallactica Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.12.08 13:33:00 - [203] Wouldnt the best all round solution be so that you have to destroy all the NPC's to capture a plex? Always Seemed a bit daft that you are able to capture a beacon whilst there are still god knows how many people (npc's) protecting it.
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.08 13:51:00 - [204] Originally by: Gallactica Wouldnt the best all round solution be so that you have to destroy all the NPC's to capture a plex? Always Seemed a bit daft that you are able to capture a beacon whilst there are still god knows how many people (npc's) protecting it. Agreed, but knowing CCP they'd do that and leave Gallente rats as they are and squids would take them all over again -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Angry Fist Tribal Core	Posted - 2009.12.08 14:39:00 - [205] I support this in general, but honestly have grown to not care about how the PERVS are achieving what they are achieving. The real reason so many of us in the Minmatar militia are unhappy about the situation is because at the rate the Caldari/Amarr are tearing through our systems we will not realistically be able to undo the damage because of the far more hateful downtime plex respawn mechanics and their consequences throughout the rest of the day. A number of Minmatar militia corps recently hatched a plan to take as much Amarr territory as possible, but when we captured Arzad we found that every day after downtime plexes would spawn there and be captured by the Amarr in short order. No more plexes would spawn until the following downtime. Most of the Minmatar active plexers aren't around at that time of day and we can't raise much of a fleet so we were completely unable to prevent the system being slowly, but surely, recaptured. Needless to say this broke the morale of many otherwise dedicated plexers. What's the point capturing systems when it can be so easily undone with us powerless to prevent it ? Long ago CCP indicated they wanted to remove gameplay mechanics tied to downtime. Their apparent failure to address this in FW has now killed a large part of FW. Now the Caldari take our systems and that same downtime mechanic will prevent us reclaiming those systems when the Caldari return home, assuming the Amarr defend their new systems in their usual manner. By breaking the delicate balance of Minmatar/Amarr system occupancy in such dramatic fashion the PERVS have rendered that gameplay mechanic null and void. I suspect CCP lack the resources to fix the downtime respawn problem so perhaps they could try something else. I personally have no problem with system occupancy meaning nothing but which side's name appears in the top left-hand corner of my Eve client when I pass though the system. It's enough for me to know my team is doing well. I don't expect the isk hose to be fired upon me as a reward every time I cap a plex. I have always felt that the main point of the system occupancy mechanic in FW should be to encourage fleets to move around a bit and not hang around the same few systems. The way things are heading at the moment we might as well only have 2 systems in FW and each side can just spend all day sitting on either side of the connecting gate. I'd like to see it possible for a fleet of say 30-40 pilots be able to fully capture a few systems within say a 3-4 hour period. The current system takes far too long and makes it hard for casual FW participants to feel connected to what is going on. If you can join a fleet and capture a system within your time served in that fleet you're going to start to care more. It's a mechanic that works in popular FPS style games and with a little imagination it can work in Eve too. The current long drawn out, morale sapping grind of plexing in FW seems entirely contrary to what I thought CCP were aiming for when they launched FW. Something fast paced and casual that people can dip into and out of with ease, having a good time for whatever amount of time they spent involved. Please take the grind out of FW CCP, and if you have to completely remove the isk hose (I never liked FW missions anyway) to keep the exploiters out then so be it. If people want to be bored out of their mind on a daily basis they have 0.0 to grind in. Let us have some fun in FW! Please!
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.08 15:20:00 - [206] Ideally you should have to kill all the defending NPCs to take the beacon. That said I agree this is just one of several poor game mechanics (along with the vigil issue and inexperienced alts). Looking at that though I see another very similar problem that directly parallels this one. Currently a non-militia corp can wardec a militia corp and fire on them without worry of the other militia corps helping the target. The reason? Standings. The non-targeted militia corps would take a negative standings hit to defend the militia-mate. So what we have then is a situation where a gank-squad can cherry pick a couple to targets in a big militia fleet without being exposed to fire. This is no different from the current issue of allies not taking a standings hit and drawing fire its just "reversed". I would support a fix to this issue ONLY IF at the same time CCP fixes it so a wardec on a militia corp makes one a target to that corps entire militia. Its common sense after all. Archie PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.08 15:25:00 - [207] Originally by: Alica Wildfire on the Vigil True enough. But your experiences are from before the dirt cheap rigs came into being .. those damn things changed the small ship game immensely. Vigils are hardly used any more though, they have been replaced with EM/Therm rigged extended Rifters .. ab around with impunity in any and all Amarr plexes with added offensive capability Originally by: Arkady Sadik On the timer bug Funny. I have been petitioning people with irrefutable screenshots as evidence, even a chat log admitting guilt at one point and the pilots are still at large. Then again, there are GMs that have to ask what a plex is, what the bug is and everything in between .. unless the statement came from a veteran/senior GM or a producer/designer I would regard it as nonsense. That is why a major overhaul is needed. There are so many flaws in the basic mechanics that even CCPs emploees can't keep up with the bug reports
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.08 15:30:00 - [208] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Funny. I have been petitioning people with irrefutable screenshots as evidence, even a chat log admitting guilt at one point and the pilots are still at large. They get a nice mail from a GM saying "hi, you are using exploits. This is a warning, stop it, or you will get harsh consequences" - they need to repeat offenses to actually get banned or anything. And the person petitioning always gets the same standard message: "Thanks, we're looking into it". CCP does not tell you what they're doing.
Darius Shakor Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:24:00 - [209] Supported.
Vincent Death Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:02:00 - [210] The proper name for a social system based on political freedom is capitalism.
Hussain Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:06:00 - [211] Supported. Nothing new here, same exploiters, same old stories, same CCP deaf ears even in face of overhelming evidence that a thing like this has to come from the players and discussed (not acted upon) is a sign of how sad things are. But not to worry some guy will write a story making sence of all of this I am sure.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:19:00 - [212] CCCP in Hey Thats Fuggin Unbelievable fail.
Koronakesh Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:54:00 - [213] Fully support the idea to require all NPC destruction inside the complex. Been personally advocating that for quite some time now. As far as the taking of systems and complexes goes, DIA's got no intention of stopping our part of the steamrolling.
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:57:00 - [214] Edited by: Dohl Khrensen on 08/12/2009 18:58:07 Supported. Though I wonder what it says when the developers can come out with two fixes for an expansion patch in a week and this standings embarrassment has been allowed to continue for a year and a half. edit: Koronakesh and others, remember to click the 'support' tick box if you actually do support the thread.
inspector burnside	Posted - 2009.12.08 19:29:00 - [215] tbh ccp mixing pve with pvp is the big issue here. it shouldnt have even been put into practice i think ccp should remove the pve side of things and concentrate on more pvp i,e the more ships u kill in certain systems gives u the right to take that system. it would encourage much more on the pvp front and fill faction war with pvpers i do agree on the mission side as the rewards are good for the faction ships just a thought
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.08 21:59:00 - [216] I present to you exhibit A: A few days after the perv/damar alt army leaves for minmatar space and captures 6 systems in a day, the gallente capture a system back. You guys can keep them :)
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.12.08 23:11:00 - [217] I support this idea. Certainly, the whole idea of plexing without combat is against the spirit of FW itself. By the way, the argument of exposing bugs by exploiting them as often as possible sounds a little too close to the argument some people use when they design viruses to infect computers. "We were only exposing security issues and bugs in the operating systems" is not a defence that sits well with the people who suffer from the viruses, and it wouldn't work in court. If you know it is a problem, then highlight the issue like everyone else. I know people on all sides use shady tactics at times, but the argument of "they do it, so I will too" just sounds petulant and childish. And don't label an entire militia by the actions of one person, or a small percentage. We're all individuals bound into a collective. The collective does not make us who we are.
Vibora BR	Posted - 2009.12.09 03:31:00 - [218]
nahmahana	Posted - 2009.12.09 04:00:00 - [219]
Zhade Lezte	Posted - 2009.12.09 05:37:00 - [220] I'm not involved in FW in the slightest, but I don't see why this should not be fixed. Goes completely against the spirit of that facet of the game.
Presto Carrslea	Posted - 2009.12.09 09:31:00 - [221] Supported
Vasili Z Cosmic Odyssey BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.12.09 11:19:00 - [222] It's pretty sad when several thousand members of your game are completely ignored when a loophole this big is being exploited non-stop. Shame on CCP for letting this happen and not caring. Shame on the people who exploit it constantly, get lives. ------- Going to kill you in Dust 514
Pendrivora	Posted - 2009.12.09 16:38:00 - [223]
Kaito Kenshin Royal Order of Security Specialists Support	Posted - 2009.12.09 18:45:00 - [224] Edited by: Kaito Kenshin on 09/12/2009 18:45:59 CCP, We pay you money for a gaming universe that is complex, fun, and internally consistent. Being able to capture plexes with unarmed, untanked, immobile vessels is not explainable. This is in an entirely different ballpark than solo-running plexes with vigils or crucifiers--a tactic that requires a lot of xp, a lot of skill, and does not blatantly fly in the face of intended game mechanics. This is an exploit, as evinced by the fact that a third party has managed to flip more systems over the course of 72 hours than the entire Amarr and Minmatar militias have been able to do in the past year. Even if you don't know what you are going to do about this yet, please at least let us know if you are even considering it. We're all dying to know, and it is going to make a significant impact on many of our in-game decisions. Thanks, Kaito
Hailey Sunweaver Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.09 19:00:00 - [225] I would love to see a fix on this but I don't see it happening soon. CCP is to concerned with getting everyone out of empire and into null sec. So maybe this is something on CCP's part to get FW to close down and push all militia pilots into null sec.
Mejalv Vusk Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.09 19:56:00 - [226] Strongly supported.
Jilnor Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.09 20:06:00 - [227] Supported.
Kuan Yida Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.12.09 23:51:00 - [228] Really only the same militia should be immune from FW complex NPCs http://kuan-huangyinglong.blogspot.com/
KillJoy Tseng Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.12.10 01:21:00 - [229]
Teddy Tazer Vard School of Cryo Cuisine	Posted - 2009.12.10 02:56:00 - [230] Definatly needs fixing. witnessed a neutral minmatar pilot shooting a mission objective while wartargets sat by and watched.
theplexman	Posted - 2009.12.10 05:52:00 - [231] supported
BruisedMoon Deeds and Madison Enterprises	Posted - 2009.12.10 07:30:00 - [232]
Zen Guerrilla Mindfunk	Posted - 2009.12.10 11:46:00 - [233] Needs fixing. ----------------------------- Pew pew!
Gwenol Velsa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.10 15:36:00 - [234] Supported. To all the caldari saying minmatar used it it first so it's fine to use in return remember that you are talking over a year and a half ago. Some of us didn't play the game or play FW back then yet we are on the receiving end of this while the original perpetrators have moved on. You were butthurt, now you have to pass the butthurt on to someone(anyone) else?
Gwenol Velsa Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.10 15:46:00 - [235] oops. (box ticked)
Jagga Spikes Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.10 15:47:00 - [236] supported
Gangleri 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2009.12.10 16:14:00 - [237] I know for sure I did hit the support button the first time but seems not to have worked. So, now with thumb up, supported. 1PG is recruiting
Papapoute	Posted - 2009.12.10 21:06:00 - [238] supported
Myra Rodan Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.10 21:06:00 - [239] Edited by: Myra Rodan on 10/12/2009 21:09:18 I agree that allied militias should be able to do complexes for eachother, however, whoever does actually run the complex should take the standings hit (or boost)from the faction that owns the system regardless of whether they are the direct competition or not. If someone is stealing space that belongs to a faction, it shouldn't matter who they are, that faction should be getting mad at them (standings drop). If they are helping a faction maintain it's space, it shouldn't matter who they are, that faction should appreciate their help (standings boost). As to previous use of this bug / exploit by anyone, I only just joined FW and found out about it now due to the taking of min systems. I would be against the use of a bug for this purpose by anyone regardless of who it harms or benefits. Selling and delivering boosters anywhere in Eve.
Malo Bersino	Posted - 2009.12.10 21:13:00 - [240] Supported
Leon Saandghar Gallente Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.12.10 21:21:00 - [241] Supported
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2009.12.10 22:30:00 - [242] Edited by: Tozmeister on 10/12/2009 22:30:36 Originally by: Leon Saandghar Supported Not if you don't tick the support idea/discussion box you haven't Edit=typo +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Vladimir Ilych Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.11 18:43:00 - [243] Support the OP suggestion(s) to amend the discussed mechanic.
Radon Kadar	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:34:00 - [244] Support
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:59:00 - [245] My bug report has been assigned to a defect. The bug being that allied factions do not get standings, which results in no repercussions, not that NPCs don't shoot. This means that this issue is officially classified as a bug, and not intended game design.
No Mauk'Ob Minmatar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.11 23:20:00 - [246] Edited by: No Mauk''Ob on 11/12/2009 23:23:41 My bug report that enemy militia from cross-opposed militia are not taking fire has been attached to a defect as well.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.12.13 12:22:00 - [247] Would be interesting to get an official comment on this now. If so then using it will be an exploit until it is fixed.
Tiberius Abraxus Crowded Igloo	Posted - 2009.12.14 10:01:00 - [248] For the love of all that is good please fix FW starting with the proposed changes.
Marin Baator Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.12.14 18:29:00 - [249] Supported FW needs a lot of love from CCP, but this would be a good start
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.14 19:09:00 - [250] Originally by: Arkady Sadik My bug report has been assigned to a defect. The bug being that allied factions do not get standings, which results in no repercussions, not that NPCs don't shoot. This means that this issue is officially classified as a bug, and not intended game design. Anything that is reproduced by the BH is labelled a defect, essentially just means the report has been validated and continues up the chain (at least that is how I understand the system). If the standings not transferring is unintended game design, why have they brushed off all comments about it the past (almost) 2 years? On a positive note, it means they have started working on fixing our worn-down home which is a good thing indeed .. fingers crossed for a massive revamp of the system and not just patch jobs to shut people up.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.14 19:30:00 - [251] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Originally by: Arkady Sadik My bug report has been assigned to a defect. The bug being that allied factions do not get standings, which results in no repercussions, not that NPCs don't shoot. This means that this issue is officially classified as a bug, and not intended game design. Anything that is reproduced by the BH is labelled a defect, essentially just means the report has been validated and continues up the chain (at least that is how I understand the system). The usual reply is "this is by design, if you think it is bad design, please post to the features and ideas discussion forum" - if it's a bug, it's not by design. Quote: If the standings not transferring is unintended game design, why have they brushed off all comments about it the past (almost) 2 years? Because the bug is not that standings avoid being shot at by NPCs, but that you can avoid the standing loss for capturing complexes by being in an allied militia. Very different things :-) I just petitioned someone for using this, and got a standard "thank you for bringing this to our attention, we'll look into it and take the appropriate action" reply - not the "this is not an exploit bla bla" reply they usually do.
Gwenol Velsa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.14 22:22:00 - [252] Arkady, can you reply to This Thread. Damar Rocarion wants to know if this has been attached to a defect and what the defect number is.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.14 22:56:00 - [253] Done - to repost the relevant part from there to this thread: The definition of an "exploit" is as follows: Quote: You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website. (Technically, we all violated the TOS because we explained the bug in various threads ;-)) I'm afraid we will not see a big news post about this being an exploit. Only very few bugs whose abuse is considered an exploit get so much attention. Hence, please do petition the abuse of this bug whenever you see it (feel free to point to the bug number above).
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.12.15 13:06:00 - [254] The "bug" has a very easy fix. Add the opposed allied militia to a pilots standings sheet. That is as far as I know/understand the only reason why there is no standings penalty incurred when capturing for the aligned side .. You see the same on a corporate level where the corporate standing (the average of employees) can be manipulated by making sure the employees have had no contact (ie. no standings entry) with a given NPC corp.
Alkeena Gallente Dynamic Solutions	Posted - 2009.12.15 13:30:00 - [255] With respect to your bug report: It appears that the defect is simply that pilots plexing for 'off' factions aren't receiving the standings boosts that normally accompany plexing. As such, they can stay immune to NPC aggro indefinitely by hiding behind their high standings towards the plex rats. It seems that the likely fix CCP would pursue would be simply to provide the faction bonuses to off factions so you can only cap a couple plexes before the local NPCs start shooting you again. Obviously that addresses the defect, but does little to address the issue people here seem to be concerned with... In the system proposed above, in which the only thing stopping high standing characters from plexing with impunity are the eventual standings adjustment there still exists a significant loophole which would still permit the behavior that spawned the initial complaint. In short, the same folks that are willing to alt grind plexes with high standings characters are also likely to be quite willing to use the same alts to grind the timer down to ~1 sec before leaving the plex to start another whilst a standard plexing character comes in to finish the initial plex take the standings hit/bonus. So really, such a change only represents a minor cut in plexing efficiency (you could have 4 high standings alt plexers + 1 standings mule plus a bit more warping about vs the 5 plexers the same person/corp might run now) while still leaving the door open for the same types of abuse. Naturally, many people wouldn't consider it worth the effort. Clearly there are at least a few pilots who do consider it worthwhile or we wouldn't have this complaint in the first place. TL;DR: Bug fix for plexing standings boost/hit makes the plex grinding that folks are railing against harder, not impossible. Keep pushing for a mechanics change if you're not happy with the current state of plexing.
Janiae Thukk U	Posted - 2009.12.15 14:12:00 - [256] Supported
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2009.12.15 18:29:00 - [257] Originally by: Gwenol Velsa Arkady, can you reply to This Thread. Damar Rocarion wants to know if this has been attached to a defect and what the defect number is. Well of course he is. He and his legion of alts are all well known for using it, and if it's a bug (and therefore an exploit), he will need to do a truly legendary amount of ass-covering. -----
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.15 20:51:00 - [258] Just (finally!) received a response to my petition. No, using "off-militia members" is not an exploit. There, CCP said it. I had a rather lengthy discussion with the GM. Nothing to be done. Customer Support (the guys answering petitions) have no influence on this, they need some dev to tell them what is and what is not an exploit. PERVS, enjoy the "creative use of game mechanics" you found (and I mean that in the best possible sense). It would be great if this complete mess that is FW could be fixed at some point. This is getting from the silly to the grotesque.
Alkeena Dynamic Solutions	Posted - 2009.12.15 22:32:00 - [259] I apparently neglected to support this with my last post.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.12.16 10:07:00 - [260] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Just (finally!) received a response to my petition. No, using "off-militia members" is not an exploit. There, CCP said it. I had a rather lengthy discussion with the GM. Nothing to be done. Customer Support (the guys answering petitions) have no influence on this, they need some dev to tell them what is and what is not an exploit. PERVS, enjoy the "creative use of game mechanics" you found (and I mean that in the best possible sense). It would be great if this complete mess that is FW could be fixed at some point. This is getting from the silly to the grotesque. Dev comment would be nice but ultimately we all know this forum section is here to direct comment to the CSM reps. So first I would like to see what one of them has to say by calling them out for comment. Do any of you intend to re-address this with CCP to seek a fix and declare the current use of this flawed design an exploit until the fix graces TQ?
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.12.16 18:31:00 - [261] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Just (finally!) received a response to my petition. No, using "off-militia members" is not an exploit. There, CCP said it. I had a rather lengthy discussion with the GM. Nothing to be done. Customer Support (the guys answering petitions) have no influence on this, they need some dev to tell them what is and what is not an exploit. PERVS, enjoy the "creative use of game mechanics" you found (and I mean that in the best possible sense). It would be great if this complete mess that is FW could be fixed at some point. This is getting from the silly to the grotesque. puts tin foil hat on It's almost as if CCP want both FW fronts ruined so they can wait for enough ppl to leave in disgust and quietly close it due to "lack of player participation" -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Gwenol Velsa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.16 20:52:00 - [262] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Just (finally!) received a response to my petition. No, using "off-militia members" is not an exploit. There, CCP said it. I had a rather lengthy discussion with the GM. Nothing to be done. Customer Support (the guys answering petitions) have no influence on this, they need some dev to tell them what is and what is not an exploit. PERVS, enjoy the "creative use of game mechanics" you found (and I mean that in the best possible sense). It would be great if this complete mess that is FW could be fixed at some point. This is getting from the silly to the grotesque. Don't quit Arkady. I petitioned yesterday as well for a public announcement of this issue. the GM said there was nothing to be done as well, he couldn't confirm or deny the existence of bug #88013 as its forbidden to disclose internal communications and they can't make a public announcement as this would lead to widespread abuse of the bug . I pointed out the existence of several threads and these 2 Assembly Hall petitions as the bug being in the public domain. He said, nothing he could do, he's only customer services. Escalated to a Senior GM, awaiting further developments...
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2009.12.16 23:32:00 - [263] Not supported, keep this feature in the game to generate new and exciting strategic outcomes --- Even though you might disagree with what I say, that doesn't automatically make me a troll.
Sharp Feather POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem	Posted - 2009.12.17 02:06:00 - [264]
Furb Killer	Posted - 2009.12.17 18:52:00 - [265] One step in the right direction, but in reality plexing in FW needs to be completely redone. Because while this would remove the ability to use this for offensive plexing, it is still possible for defensive plexing, and not only that but also easier since then the npcs actually attack the other side.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient	Posted - 2009.12.23 16:05:00 - [266] Yes. NPCs also make most "good fights" impossible - single hostile cruiser defending a major? Can't bring something that can take on a cruiser, you need a useful "blob" (at least one frigate for aggro), so you can kill the cruiser before the NPCs do too much damage. Even though that allows for very nice "single malediction defends plex against overwhelming enemies" situations (respect Vaarun!), NPCs are bad in general for pvp. My preferred solution would be to get rid of NPCs alltogether, but add some kind of minigame to plexing so it takes a while to capture it, to avoid excessive afk alt usage. If you want a "minimum size" for plexes ("you need a BC in fleet to capture a major!"), make it so that only that size can actually do the minigame. Complexes should be PvP challenges. Someone saying "HAH! Here I am, throw me out!" - not something you do ideally unnoticed by the enemy.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.12.23 18:12:00 - [267] Originally by: Insa Rexion Originally by: Arkady Sadik Just (finally!) received a response to my petition. No, using "off-militia members" is not an exploit. There, CCP said it. I had a rather lengthy discussion with the GM. Nothing to be done. Customer Support (the guys answering petitions) have no influence on this, they need some dev to tell them what is and what is not an exploit. PERVS, enjoy the "creative use of game mechanics" you found (and I mean that in the best possible sense). It would be great if this complete mess that is FW could be fixed at some point. This is getting from the silly to the grotesque. puts tin foil hat on It's almost as if CCP want both FW fronts ruined so they can wait for enough ppl to leave in disgust and quietly close it due to "lack of player participation" also puts her tinfoil hat on CCP have stated on several occasions that FW should be a temporary playstyle and an introduction to pvp for new players before they head to 0.0. Making it 'good' or 'better' will severely impact CCPs vision of what we should all be doing in their sandbox.
Faraelle Brightman Moira.	Posted - 2009.12.23 19:58:00 - [268] It's the sandbox. There should be no "should be doing". If it's been exploited by people on all sides, shame on them; those I know to be otherwise decent, don't do it again, mmkay? cofValcof. Oh, and fix it. ----------------------- "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies." ~CSM Prop: [url="http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threa
Gourdo	Posted - 2010.01.01 15:37:00 - [269] I do not have the time to read this entire thread but I agree there are many issues with FW that need fixed. I personally believe there is one thing that they can do to fix a lot of the standing issues which can be very simple to do. Make the Militia basically a NPC Alliance. And have it so that regardless of the enemy standings (which ever side they are on) Faction fleet trigger or how ever you want to word it. Example: Gallente FW pilot enters Amarr highsec has high Amarr standings and does not get attacked by Faction navy (current mechanics. But if the make the Militia more like a Allaince and have navy respond to all war targets then the above would be that pilot enters the as before but this time gets attacked by faction navy. But of course then he would just warp off and log off and the Faction navy will stop going after the pilot and the pilot would just re-log and have freedom from being attacked by the faction navy since under the current mechanics the navy does not respond to war targets logging into a system only entering the system. This is as by design not a bug or exploit and supported by the GMs' (direct representatives of CCP) By making the Militias' more of a alliance and making it so that the NPC navy attack all wt regardless of the targets standings it would solve many of the standing issues with both the plexs and pilots entering enemy high sec systems where they have high standing and not being attacked. It would also help with the plexing standing issue. Also by doing this it would make the individual corps that are in FW be more part of the militia in general by allowing other militia pilots and corps to support them while they are being war dec'ed by the big alliances. It would make it so that if a none FW corp/ alliance wants to war dec a FW corp they would have to war dec the militia as a alliance (the faction navy not getting involved in such matters). This would also allow other members of the militia to support thier comrades in arms. Which in my opinion should be possable but is not under current mech of the game. The militia would not be able to claim any sov since they would be a NPC alliance. The other option to the wardecing issue would be to make it so a FW pilot being killed weather in a wardec or not give a faction hit to the pilot(s) killing the fw pilot. That is all for now 2 year old keeps trying to climb in my lap to play with the computer and she is stinky so i have to go for now.
Gourdo Amarr	Posted - 2010.01.07 11:32:00 - [270] friendly bump

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.