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Highwind Cid
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Posted - 2009.12.06 16:58:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Redart Edited by: Redart on 05/12/2009 03:39:31 Who the hell are you to try an make me join a player corp?
I have been on and off for almost 5yrs now. I have quit so many times and came back so many times, but it is this recent time that I actually really started to enjoy the game because I have not been bound by a corporation. I have been treating the game more as a hobby, than a game I have to play everyday.
I enjoy running missions and I enjoy trading station to station. Both of these are hurt severely by the NPC Corp tax. I do not want to be in a corp, between my 3 characters I have been in many corps and the game simply isn't for the casual player when you move into corps. There is no way around it. Especially trading, any % over normal tax is very painful since you are buying and selling for large quantities for much smaller profits than you put into it. 5% can take away ALL profit on what is considered to be good trades. You killed that, good job.
Trying to force me to join a corporation that's ran by other players is absolutely ludicrous. I would expect that many casual players will be doing the same.
Why not make a casuals corp? You can set the tax to 0% and you'll work together with people that are like minded.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:10:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz You responded to this in another thread didn't you? Aren't you the one that just states the opposite, and never provides any content?.
No. As for content, it's in the thread in question. I suggest you read it instead of assuming it will contain what you wish it contained. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Skalet
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:25:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Skalet
facts: IFyou are smart, you can make more cash missioning than any other profession hands down.
You just proved you aren't very smart
Missioning is potentially good ISK but not even close to the best moneymaker in game.
get two accounts make one account the armor rep/salvager make the other the insane dps machine make 50+mill an hour semi afk.
The end
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:30:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Skalet
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Skalet
facts: IFyou are smart, you can make more cash missioning than any other profession hands down.
You just proved you aren't very smart
Missioning is potentially good ISK but not even close to the best moneymaker in game.
get two accounts make one account the armor rep/salvager make the other the insane dps machine make 50+mill an hour semi afk.
The end
Why bother when I can make four times that with one account without leaving a station? Nevermind the ISK available in WH exploitation (not missions!)
Come on, think a little harder... many things in EVE blow mission income out of the water. Missions are just good and easy (keyword) money, not omgamazingISK.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. EVE has devs that care about sound? (Ha ha ha! Gotcha. It actually doesn't!) |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:32:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz @Kerfira
I read a couple of pages of that linked thread, and noted that everyone responding was calling BS on you. My personal experience, at 7 million SP (approx 1 million in "learning" skills): I can make 12 to 15 million per hour spent dedicated to L4 missions.
Obviously I'm not the most efficient mission runner in highSec. But 3 times the income? Of course I'm skeptical.
Perhaps if you have 50 million SP, use a few billion worth of ship/modules, optimal skills for missions, optimal standings, and the very best agent in the very best NPC corp in the very best system in EvE you can average 45 million per hour. Or maybe you're getting surprisingly frequent drops of 1 billion ISK modules /lol.
So essentially you're saying that "I refuse to believe this is possible!", and don't provide any info except one piece which is easily refutable!
15m ISK is LESS than the ISK gained from LP for a Guristas Extravaganza mission, which takes me less than 1 hour to complete if blitzing. Then there are rewards, bounties and loot on top of that!
GE is not even one of the best missions if you look at ISK/time average.....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:41:00 -
[156]
If missions are the issue, why did CCP increase the number of agents, gave most of them to Caldari and concentrated them in high pop spots so you cou can pick and chose mission and do marketwhoring while you are at it?
They did not even try to put some "competition" or variety or opportunity cost into mission running, quite on the contrary.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:42:00 -
[157]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Gorefacer
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: MaxxOmega I agree with the OP this is outrageous... er... ummm.... what's the problem again?
Funnily enough you've probably stumbled on the crux of the problem with this little bit of contemptuous sarcasm, and that's that most players don't seem to able to grasp the issue...
If you were that casual about the game a 3% tax on mission running wouldn't even register let alone prompt you to write long diatribes on the internet about it.
If this change wasn't a change but implemented from the start it would make sense to people and nobody would question it. Now people feel entitled to have wardec immunity for free.
There is NO freedom being impinged on at all. You can stay in NPC corps and pay the tiny fee for all that that entails or you can create your own corp or join another one. All options are viable. You were taxed before and your taxed now. One minor added extra tax in exchange for a service you've since been getting for free isn't freedom crushing in the least bit.
Try again.
lol. Dude, I've already stated in this thread that the 11% tax does not affect me, at all. I repeat, what I'm worried about is the direction CCP are taking with this, using a whip instead of a carrot to get players into corps. The blog states they may increase the tax if it does not have the desired affect. A dev in the information portal thread on the subject has even stated he's had wet dreams about increasing it to 100% - that would impinge my freedom to choose. But thanks anyway for confirming my point that most can't grasp the issue.
Casual players want changes that decrease the time required to enjoy the game, not changes that increase that time. Jump clones were a very welcome addition, NPC corp tax increases are not. Now it may be that this change simply brings NPC's to a level playing field with PC's, and fair enough if it is - 11% isn't particularly onerous. But if CCP push it further - and the indications are that it's definately an option - it may become onerous.
I think the points been made by the OP. Reading some of the replies in here however I doubt that points ever going to be accepted by the corpies and hardcore players; I can only hope it gets through to CCP. I will summaries the point into an easily understandable statement: leave me and my play-style the &%#@ alone!
There's not much to grasp. Thus far your play-style has been left alone. You can continue to play the way you have been. A 3% mission tax is a very minor inconvenience/cost in exchange for the minor advantage of wardec immunity. It sounds like your complaining about something that hasn't happened yet.
If you want to argue the point that CCP will do something unfairly tax related in the future then that's fine but I see no point in participating as I have no idea what they will end up doing. I think what HAS been done is not unfair or out of line though for the reasons I've already outlined.
I think I just got trolled again, these guys are good.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Skalet
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:49:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Skalet
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Skalet
facts: IFyou are smart, you can make more cash missioning than any other profession hands down.
You just proved you aren't very smart
Missioning is potentially good ISK but not even close to the best moneymaker in game.
get two accounts make one account the armor rep/salvager make the other the insane dps machine make 50+mill an hour semi afk.
The end
Why bother when I can make four times that with one account without leaving a station? Nevermind the ISK available in WH exploitation (not missions!)
Come on, think a little harder... many things in EVE blow mission income out of the water. Missions are just good and easy (keyword) money, not omgamazingISK.
heh ive gone past the missioning days tbh, but i was merely stating that its very easy to make alot of cash by that.
now having said that, i do make more than that nowdays, but thats a combo of T2 ship production, and other sources.
still in the end, if anyone is having trouble making isk relatively easy in EVE it is thier problem for not realizing the potential for making isk in every facet of EVE.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:56:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Gsptlsnz You responded to this in another thread didn't you? Aren't you the one that just states the opposite, and never provides any content?.
No. As for content, it's in the thread in question. I suggest you read it instead of assuming it will contain what you wish it contained.
Small chance of that
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.06 20:19:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Gorefacer There's not much to grasp. Thus far your play-style has been left alone. You can continue to play the way you have been. A 3% mission tax is a very minor inconvenience/cost in exchange for the minor advantage of wardec immunity. It sounds like your complaining about something that hasn't happened yet.
If you want to argue the point that CCP will do something unfairly tax related in the future then that's fine but I see no point in participating as I have no idea what they will end up doing. I think what HAS been done is not unfair or out of line though for the reasons I've already outlined.
I think I just got trolled again, these guys are good.
Wardec immunity isn't a very good RP reason for the tax, considering the downsides to being in the NPC corp already (compared to a player corp). Lack of a corp wallet, hangar and POS access to name a few. It also only seems to target a specific playstyle, since it doesn't affect traders / builders / miners etc. Are they not important to get out of the NPC corps or something?
Doesn't affect me personally, and I'm not necessarily against it because it's not hard to work around the actual tax part. It's the loss of social interaction in the NPC corps that worries me more. These players probably will just end up leaving after sitting in their one man corp for a few months and getting bored (some of the local a**holes probably won't care but that's unfortunate, because any player loss in EVE is a bad thing).
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. EVE has devs that care about sound? (Ha ha ha! Gotcha. It actually doesn't!) |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 20:26:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Gorefacer There's not much to grasp. Thus far your play-style has been left alone. You can continue to play the way you have been. A 3% mission tax is a very minor inconvenience/cost in exchange for the minor advantage of wardec immunity. It sounds like your complaining about something that hasn't happened yet.
If you want to argue the point that CCP will do something unfairly tax related in the future then that's fine but I see no point in participating as I have no idea what they will end up doing. I think what HAS been done is not unfair or out of line though for the reasons I've already outlined.
I think I just got trolled again, these guys are good.
Wardec immunity isn't a very good RP reason for the tax, considering the downsides to being in the NPC corp already (compared to a player corp). Lack of a corp wallet, hangar and POS access to name a few. It also only seems to target a specific playstyle, since it doesn't affect traders / builders / miners etc. Are they not important to get out of the NPC corps or something?
Doesn't affect me personally, and I'm not necessarily against it because it's not hard to work around the actual tax part. It's the loss of social interaction in the NPC corps that worries me more. These players probably will just end up leaving after sitting in their one man corp for a few months and getting bored (some of the local a**holes probably won't care but that's unfortunate, because any player loss in EVE is a bad thing).
because it's impossible to set up a chat channel, right?
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.06 20:39:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Malcanis because it's impossible to set up a chat channel, right?
Of course not, it's just impractical. I've had one set up from my last corp and it went well for a few weeks, but people start disappearing from it and now it's just me and one other guy most of the time with the occasional busy period of 4-5 people tops. Since NPC corps cycle players regularly this isn't an issue, and many of them are new, need help and have questions to ask so there's a lot going on in chat already.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. EVE has devs that care about sound? (Ha ha ha! Gotcha. It actually doesn't!) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 20:40:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Malcanis because it's impossible to set up a chat channel, right?
Of course not, it's just impractical. I've had one set up from my last corp and it went well for a few weeks, but people start disappearing from it and now it's just me and one other guy most of the time with the occasional busy period of 4-5 people tops. Since NPC corps cycle players regularly this isn't an issue, and many of them are new, need help and have questions to ask so there's a lot going on in chat already.
Pay me 11% of your income and I'll sort it out for you.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.12.06 20:48:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Gorefacer There's not much to grasp. Thus far your play-style has been left alone. You can continue to play the way you have been. A 3% mission tax is a very minor inconvenience/cost in exchange for the minor advantage of wardec immunity. It sounds like your complaining about something that hasn't happened yet.
If you want to argue the point that CCP will do something unfairly tax related in the future then that's fine but I see no point in participating as I have no idea what they will end up doing. I think what HAS been done is not unfair or out of line though for the reasons I've already outlined.
I think I just got trolled again, these guys are good.
Wardec immunity isn't a very good RP reason for the tax, considering the downsides to being in the NPC corp already (compared to a player corp). Lack of a corp wallet, hangar and POS access to name a few. It also only seems to target a specific playstyle, since it doesn't affect traders / builders / miners etc. Are they not important to get out of the NPC corps or something?
Doesn't affect me personally, and I'm not necessarily against it because it's not hard to work around the actual tax part. It's the loss of social interaction in the NPC corps that worries me more. These players probably will just end up leaving after sitting in their one man corp for a few months and getting bored (some of the local a**holes probably won't care but that's unfortunate, because any player loss in EVE is a bad thing).
Perhaps it isn't a good RP reason. My main point is that currently nobody is being "forced" to do anything. It's a small downside for residing in a corp that (as far as I understand it) CCP never intended for people to hang out long in anyway. What I don't get is that many things in the game are taxed but there is no great outcry at them, why this one?
If I had or have in the future a character in one of these corps I'd either decide it's not worth paying the tax and get around it or decide it's worth the tiny fee not worry about tax dodging or war decs. Where's the problem?
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:03:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Gorefacer
If I had or have in the future a character in one of these corps I'd either decide it's not worth paying the tax and get around it or decide it's worth the tiny fee not worry about tax dodging or war decs. Where's the problem?
The fee might not be so tiny, depending on how you play. Ratting / complexing is almost taxed fully unless you salvage and loot everything (not always possible or profitable). That goes back to how this doesn't affect everyone's playstyle.
What about players in NPC corps who live in 0.0? They're being taxed for... nothing! (because wardecs are irrelevant)
Now, I was all for "more incentive to join a player corp" especially since I don't trust anybody (like I really don't care much for the idea of giving a bunch of guys unwritten consent to shoot and kill me without consequence) but the more I look at this particular feature, the more silly it seems.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. EVE has devs that care about sound? (Ha ha ha! Gotcha. It actually doesn't!) |
Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:27:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Gorefacer
If I had or have in the future a character in one of these corps I'd either decide it's not worth paying the tax and get around it or decide it's worth the tiny fee not worry about tax dodging or war decs. Where's the problem?
The fee might not be so tiny, depending on how you play. Ratting / complexing is almost taxed fully unless you salvage and loot everything (not always possible or profitable). That goes back to how this doesn't affect everyone's playstyle.
What about players in NPC corps who live in 0.0? They're being taxed for... nothing! (because wardecs are irrelevant)
Now, I was all for "more incentive to join a player corp" especially since I don't trust anybody (like I really don't care much for the idea of giving a bunch of guys unwritten consent to shoot and kill me without consequence) but the more I look at this particular feature, the more silly it seems.
Well I'm not necessarily defending their decision to only apply the tax to mission running nor am I saying that the change has zero affect on any playstyle. Only that it doesn't limit any particular playstyle or force anyone into another one.
Many people feel that lvl 4 mission running can too easily net good ISK with little to zero risk. Was this the reason CCP chose to tax it and not other things? I don't know. However if they did choose to tax all income earning activities I don't think it would affect the point I was making in any way.
I usually make my income by sitting in station in Jita and buying and selling things. A 10% margin on items isn't too terrible in many circumstances. After buy and sell order fees I'm being taxed upwards of 3% my total sale or 30% of the profit margin. Despite the tax I don't feel it forces me to another playstyle or is unfair in any way and I don't have any way of dodging the fee.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.12.06 22:41:00 -
[167]
Note: tax is only charged on bounties above a certain value (off the top of my head I think it's 100k).
So if you're worried about the 11% tax, just make sure you have enough people in your fleet that the bounties will be divided up equally amongst you, and you'll not pay any tax at all. The biggest fleet you'll need is 20 people for the 2M ISK bounties in some level 4 missions.
That many people flying RR HACs should rip through missions pretty darned quickly.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
b1zz
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Posted - 2009.12.07 09:00:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Gorefacer
There's not much to grasp. Thus far your play-style has been left alone. You can continue to play the way you have been. A 3% mission tax is a very minor inconvenience/cost in exchange for the minor advantage of wardec immunity. It sounds like your complaining about something that hasn't happened yet.
If you want to argue the point that CCP will do something unfairly tax related in the future then that's fine but I see no point in participating as I have no idea what they will end up doing. I think what HAS been done is not unfair or out of line though for the reasons I've already outlined.
You sound like the type to allow a despot to take control of your country granting himself absolute power before it occured to you that maybe you should have raised a voice against it some time previously.
The blog is pretty blatant on the point that CCP want players in player corporations, and they are willing to push the tax further "if the changes do not have the impact we hope"; this should give you an idea of what they will end up doing.
The tone of that blog should be hugely worrying to the player base. For anyone not interested in player corporations it's down right scary. Simply tell us the tax is to bring NPC onto a level playing field with PCs, there's no need for the "suggestions".
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Yonna Paris
Gallente Hinata House
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Posted - 2009.12.07 11:29:00 -
[169]
Originally by: b1zz The tone of that blog should be hugely worrying to the player base. For anyone not interested in player corporations it's down right scary.
I think CCP should cancel NPC corps altogether. Just hotdrop any new player into a random existing player corp. Should make things interesting and eliminate this kind of incredible whining.
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Den Ortur
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Posted - 2009.12.07 13:06:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Redart ...instead of playing, you're here.... combing the forums, calling people with negative security status carebears and stupid for playing a game the way he or she wants to play it...
And you're here too. Combing the forums. Calling people stupid.
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Ralle030583
Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.12.07 13:45:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Yonna Paris
Originally by: b1zz The tone of that blog should be hugely worrying to the player base. For anyone not interested in player corporations it's down right scary.
I think CCP should cancel NPC corps altogether. Just hotdrop any new player into a random existing player corp. Should make things interesting and eliminate this kind of incredible whining.
thats funny idea .. somwhow...
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Master Shipper
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Posted - 2009.12.07 23:21:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Ralle030583
Originally by: Yonna Paris
Originally by: b1zz The tone of that blog should be hugely worrying to the player base. For anyone not interested in player corporations it's down right scary.
I think CCP should cancel NPC corps altogether. Just hotdrop any new player into a random existing player corp. Should make things interesting and eliminate this kind of incredible whining.
thats funny idea .. somwhow...
I don't. It seems that's where it's heading.
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Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.08 00:07:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Wet Ferret Wardec immunity isn't a very good RP reason for the tax, considering the downsides to being in the NPC corp already (compared to a player corp). Lack of a corp wallet, hangar and POS access to name a few. It also only seems to target a specific playstyle, since it doesn't affect traders / builders / miners etc. Are they not important to get out of the NPC corps or something?
I always considered the lack of a corporate wallet and corp hanger to be a bonus...
As no one will run off with the corp wallet or you ships from hanger.
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Fatneck Runt
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Posted - 2009.12.08 00:37:00 -
[174]
If you don't like the change, and you don't like your other options, simply vote with your wallet and cancel your account(s). Be sure and list your reasons for the cancellation when you're going through with it, as there's a space provided to do so. I just did, and I feel better about it already.
There are those out there who would say that this isn't the game for me. After this latest change by CCP which basically targets the extremely casual carebears like me, I'd have to agree with them. This really is no longer the game for me (if indeed it ever was), so I have canceled my accounts. My 4 year-old main account is paid-up for a couple of more months, but this alt account will be done in a few days.
I doubt I will be missed by many people, but that's OK - I've always existed on the fringe anyway.
I'm done. Cue the abusive/derisive comments.
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.12.08 00:40:00 -
[175]
Why is everyone talking about RP? What does my accent have to do with anything? ---
I was going to run for CSM but life waylaid me :( |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.08 00:53:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar I always considered the lack of a corporate wallet and corp hanger to be a bonus...
As no one will run off with the corp wallet or you ships from hanger.
I've been running my own corp for over 7 months, and I have yet to run off with my own corp wallet or hangar contents, and not too worried about me doing so. Not sure I would be too upset if I did, though. Did I mention there's nobody in my corp that's not me?
Those two features alone are worth being in a corp for, IMO (one-man or otherwise). And you don't have to give access to anyone who you don't want to have it anyway... so why would you consider the lack of something that's optional, controllable (and highly useful) as a bonus? It is quite the opposite no matter which angle you look at it from.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. EVE has devs that care about sound? (Ha ha ha! Gotcha. It actually doesn't!) |
Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.08 02:02:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Zartanic on 08/12/2009 02:05:41
Its scary that some people can't handle doing solo player corps whuich are dirt cheap and take a few minutes to set up. I've been in one on and off for months and never had a wardec. And the 11% is peanuts anyway, it nets to about 4% which is less than one level of the negotiation skill. It won't do what CCP want (move players to nul sec) and I don't know why they think it would but its otherwise a small amount to care about.
Some players should be embarrassed they play this game and behave like spoiled brats when they don't get everything their way.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.12.08 02:13:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Zartanic The protection NPC corps provide is totally against the spirit of the game and Id rather players were kicked out into the real EVE world after a set time anyway and put into a default solo Corps.
Hmm, yeah, about that whole "spirit of the game" thing. Let's talk about how urging people into or out of certain playstyles is "in the spirit of the game". How does that work, good sir?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. EVE has devs that care about sound? (Ha ha ha! Gotcha. It actually doesn't!) |
outopian
Gallente Decimus Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.08 04:10:00 -
[179]
Not gonna read the whole thread, but all I hear in the first post is, "I don't wanna be wardecced"
Play Peggle. That's a fun game.
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Slightly Green
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Posted - 2009.12.08 04:35:00 -
[180]
I just can't believe that this is considered such a major issue. This game, even as it stands, is probably one of the more solo/casual friendly MMO games out there. Try any other MMO to see what I mean... you're not forced to do much at all in Eve.
You don't have to group to get 'epic' gear. You don't have to group to see all the content. There may be advantages, but you're not forced.
As for 11% - it was a long time coming, and they signalled it was coming quite a long time before it happened. Why the culture shock?
Also... epic thread ftw.
S. Rifter
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