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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:09:00 -
[1]
Why the frell does this game require we make money that is required to be spent for nothing, i.e. broker's fees, taxes to npc entities?!? Do not mistake this as a thread about the npc player corp taxes. It is not. My question is about the broker fees on selling items and the taxes collected by npc stations, etc. It makes no sense whatsoever. All this serves to do is insure a certain percentage of ingame money is not available requiring the players to work that much harder in order to play the game.
As for the broker fees: It's easy to get comfortable with the current game configuration because that's the way it is. And many of you will see it as such. But if you try to reason it, it can't be done. The only reason that can be logically concluded is the broker's fee only serve to MAKE the player work harder. Yes I know it's such a small percentage. However, it accumulates over time resulting in many hours, days and weeks of lost productivity (and that's laughable since this is a game resulting in a net loss of productivity in our lives) depending on a player's time in game and the scale of their operations.
My suggestion for brokers' fees: Allow players to fill those roles depending on skills and interests to do so. Allow the players to profit from those transactions. I would not mind at all paying brokers' fees if I knew it was resulting in a net productivity gain within the game instead of the net loss it is now.
As for taxes on services/products to npc entities it is purely a waste to the player and to the game. All of the same arguments I made about the brokers' fees apply towards these taxes however, without Sov in empire space there are no fixes for it. It should be done away with.
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Lexx Khadar
Minmatar Free Minmatar Union
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:13:00 -
[2]
brokers/sales tax fees are easily negated with trade skills. Its also there to make people place sensible sell/buy orders on the market. And to stop people taking goods down too often to reprice them as soon as their undercut. Do that enough with brokers fees and you will eat into your profits.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:13:00 -
[3]
Because ISK sinks are required to balance the ISK fountains.
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Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:14:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 07/12/2009 15:17:26 Im wrong. Im a monkey.
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Nocturnal Avenger
x13
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:15:00 -
[5]
"Allow the players to profit from those transactions. I would not mind at all paying brokers' fees if I knew it was resulting in a net productivity gain within the game instead of the net loss it is now."
Look at it this way: instead of reducing cost, you are actually increasing profit.
Same deal but with a different angle.
- Carebear Pirate - |
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mr Kidd The only reason that can be logically concluded is the broker's fee only serve to MAKE the player work harder.
The only reason is to remove ISK from the economy. Without it, the constant, massive influx of ISK would soon make your petty billions insufficient for buying anything more expensive than coffee and duct tape – exotic dancers would be right out.
Quote: I would not mind at all paying brokers' fees if I knew it was resulting in a net productivity gain within the game instead of the net loss it is now.
The whole point of them is that they remove ISK, so that would be a bad thing. But think of it this way: they're ensuring that your ISK is keeping its value, rather than being worth 1/10th of what it was when you acquired it. It's actually allowing you to do less… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Thargorr
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:37:00 -
[7]
Take high school econ, THEN whine. It's only a half-year course after all. You get to spend the second half taking government which (high voice)blows(/high voice).
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gfldex
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:41:00 -
[8]
Without the sales tax and broker fee a fairly simply macro could gerenate billions each day while creating massive server load. Both of those events are undesirable.
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Lady Katrana
Wild Jokers
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:53:00 -
[9]
realism
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Chi'kote
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Posted - 2009.12.07 15:54:00 -
[10]
I agree with the post about "take an economics class." Isk sinks, money supply, inflation, etc. etc.
If you've already taken a high school econ class, then stop sleepign in class.
If you've already taken a college econ class, and passed, post your school. I need to make sure not to hire anyone from there.
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MinerJimmy
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:04:00 -
[11]
Edited by: MinerJimmy on 07/12/2009 16:05:34 Edited by: MinerJimmy on 07/12/2009 16:04:33
Originally by: Chi'kote I agree with the post about "take an economics class." Isk sinks, money supply, inflation, etc. etc.
If you've already taken a high school econ class, then stop sleepign in class.
If you've already taken a college econ class, and passed, post your school. I need to make sure not to hire anyone from there.
Tbh this is a fairly ******ed post. The game is nothing like a real economy, getting rewarded neverendingly by someone who can never run outta money - ie getting bounties for missions. Or money dissapearing into thin air ie trade tax - again this doesn't happen money always goes somewhere. With this post I'm going to have to assume you're one of these people that thinks that everyone is a loser in the credit crunch.
In truth, money sinks are vital in the game because this is a very closed loop economy. It helps to control the economy in a way that a real economy would work, but cannot work ingame!
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Grarr Wrexx
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:07:00 -
[12]
Free docking rights in hundreds of stations, protection through concord and sentry guns, access to all the agents. I think that's worth a measly 11% of your bounties.
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Faerana
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:07:00 -
[13]
It also makes it very hard for people to make back isk that was removed from their account due to buying from isk-sellers. With a negative wallet balance you can't pay the fees to sell something.
Which is good, they see the light.
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:15:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 07/12/2009 16:15:17
Originally by: Chi'kote I agree with the post about "take an economics class." Isk sinks, money supply, inflation, etc. etc.
If you've already taken a high school econ class, then stop sleepign in class.
If you've already taken a college econ class, and passed, post your school. I need to make sure not to hire anyone from there.
This is utter fail! In a real economy taxes go to the government for defense, improvement of society, etc. The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again. That tax money is effectively put back into the economy with tangible, measurable results. The same with brokers' fees. But in Eve, the money just disappears as there are no benefits to the respective races' players.
Please, tell me which school you attend so I can make sure to report your utter fail to understand even the most basic of economics.
Now someone is going to argue that we have stations, security, etc. True. But technically the taxes we pay don't go there as they are as easily generated as pressing a button somewhere within CCP to spawn them. So no, the "our taxes go to support that stuff" is utter fail as well. My original summation remains, taxes/brokers' fees just makes the player work harder in order to afford to play the game in a way that does not directly generate isk.
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Mrs Snowman
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:29:00 -
[15]
Your arguing that there should be no tax because the tax is going to an NPC. Which is rediculous because its not. Its going back to CCP, they are taking the ISK off you because you then have to spend TIME gaining it back!.... and I dont know if you've noticed but you PAY REAL MONEY FOR YOUR TIME IN EVE! (or someone does down the line)
So actually the tax is your time for which they are perfectly within their rights to charge, since its what the business model is based around (as is any subscription based product)
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X3R0N
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:31:00 -
[16]
Edited by: X3R0N on 07/12/2009 16:31:31
Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 07/12/2009 16:15:17
Originally by: Chi'kote I agree with the post about "take an economics class." Isk sinks, money supply, inflation, etc. etc.
If you've already taken a high school econ class, then stop sleepign in class.
If you've already taken a college econ class, and passed, post your school. I need to make sure not to hire anyone from there.
This is utter fail! In a real economy taxes go to the government for defense, improvement of society, etc. The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again. That tax money is effectively put back into the economy with tangible, measurable results. The same with brokers' fees. But in Eve, the money just disappears as there are no benefits to the respective races' players.
Oh really ?
Reading these forums is kinda like watching a car crash is super slo-mo. Fascinating at first, but rapidly becoming appalling... yet you can't quite tear yourself away!
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mr Kidd The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again.
In the real world, goverments use interest rates instead of taxes as dollar-sinks. Slightly different mechanic, same end result.
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Odilon Raennere
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:43:00 -
[18]
For that matter, why do rats shoot at me when I target them and start blasting their hulls open? They should just explode when I come on grid and give me their bounties. All this serves to do is ensure a certain percentage of my ammo, capacitor, and time is not available requiring me to work that much harder in order to play the game. I want answers, CCP!
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:45:00 -
[19]
When you put up a buy order, do you think your character leaves the pod and hangs out at the local fish market looking for 1M units of trit?
Are you stupid or something?
It all gets handled through the Secure Commerce Commision, a part of the CONCORD assembly. Only reason you can buy safely, sell safely and even have universal currency is through them. Stop whining and realize you're paying for a service.
Or you could start your own market and currency using trade windows or something.
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Lady Spank
Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:48:00 -
[20]
It's a gam we shouoldnt have to pay space fees monies for ducking rights and stuffs sort it out CPP.
Originally by: Tirus Sinobi Your response has set your intelligence barrier so low that anything you post from here on that breaches it, will have to be considered posted by somebody else.
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MinerJimmy
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Mr Kidd The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again.
In the real world, goverments use interest rates instead of taxes as dollar-sinks. Slightly different mechanic, same end result.
How does interest make money vanish? :S
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.07 16:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MinerJimmy
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Mr Kidd The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again.
In the real world, goverments use interest rates instead of taxes as dollar-sinks. Slightly different mechanic, same end result.
How does interest make money vanish? :S
Because your money is only worth what you can spend it on. If you have $100 today and can buy a candy bar for $10 today, then when you have $100 tomorrow and the candy bar (and everything else proportionately) costs $20, you have lost money. In fact, the $100 of tomorrow is worth only $50 in today's money, in my example. Inflation made half of your money disappear.
But the numbers stayed the same so that you can stay happy.
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Virgil Travis
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:05:00 -
[23]
Inflation in a nutshell
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MinerJimmy
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Mr Kidd The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again.
In the real world, goverments use interest rates instead of taxes as dollar-sinks. Slightly different mechanic, same end result.
How does interest make money vanish? :S
I am not talking about the interest charged by normal banks to their clients. I am talking about interest charged by goverment banks: ie Federal Reserve System, Bank of Canada, etc.
These orginzations create money out of nothing. Money that they collect is effectively returned to where it came from: nowhere.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:21:00 -
[25]
Lets not try to justify where that money goes. We all know that if you want to justify where the money goes all you have to do is say that it goes to pay for the salaries of the people running the stations/corps/govt. and hardware like the station you are docked in. Its the only way to really represent these things in game.
However, since some people can't wrap their heads around this concept, I'll put it another way.
CCP would like the market to be competetive, and while part of your success is based on your personal skill at such things they would like your in-game skills to have an impact as well, so that you must make a concious decision to train in a particular direction to achieve maximum success in your chosen profession.
They could just eliminate the fee's, but at the same time they would also decrease the value of the item you are selling to compensate. You wouldn't make 1 isk more. All that would happen is that you eliminate a viable profession from the game.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:25:00 -
[26]
Edited by: arbiter reborn on 07/12/2009 17:25:54 it goes to "The Broker" obviously. read moar eve-geek books
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Emboras
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:27:00 -
[27]
You pay taxes so npc can afford hiring you for a mission and place bounties on pirates. |
MinerJimmy
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:28:00 -
[28]
Edited by: MinerJimmy on 07/12/2009 17:29:25 I wasn't actually discussing inflation at all, I simply said how does interest make money dissapear, interest is used to control inflation. Hence such low interest rates at present to reduce deflation making money easier to attain through borrowing and cost less, to try and stimulate growth, when theres surplus money obviously the opposite, i fully understand that, but no one has expland how interest makes money dissapear when a $5 note is simply a representation of the same amount of liquid funds as a $50 maybe in 10 years time.
My point was simple, how can the eve universe be compared to real life? It can't because the economy isn't big enough so to all those people flaming the op with economics bull**** should look at the origin of most of this money. At the end of the day everyone in real life is out to make money - NPC's in game don't seem to be so money minded!
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MinerJimmy
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Mr Kidd The governments of the world don't have blackholes that they're shoveling your money into never to be seen again.
In the real world, goverments use interest rates instead of taxes as dollar-sinks. Slightly different mechanic, same end result.
How does interest make money vanish? :S
Because most that "money" only exists as numbers on a spreadsheet. SO it's really easy to disapear something that never actually existed.
Read up on Fractional Reserve Banking.
Also for the record the treasury destroyes billions in actual physical currency per year as well.
The Fed can (and does) affect the money supply by using the interest rates they charge the large regional banks to increase or decrease the "cost" of currency which in turn affects the amount of lending and at what rates those banks charge the smaller banks and on down the line until it gets to your ATM card or car loan.
So yes there are "money sinks" in the real world economy as well even if they aren't quite as transparent as those in EVE.
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MinerJimmy
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:44:00 -
[30]
Sorry if i came across ******ed, of course I completely understand the need for money sinks in game to control inflation - obviously something which most people understand fairly well - look at the deutsche mark or Rupee (or whatever the Currency they use in Zimbabwe is called), and its clear why inflation has to be controlled. Just don't see why people can compare it to Economics or the Eve Economy to that of a Government, banking system or the Economy of the world thats all, its too close looped to be comparable, theres not enough of the other influencing factors in the market.
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