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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10543
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:I would make the small point that "slaves" is a standard CONCORD-recognised commodity and includes slaves of all races, which the Angel Cartel gleefully trades in, so we have no idea how many of those were actually Minmatar. Another point of contention is the use of the word "murder," when referring to property.
One cannot murder a commodity.
I think this an overreaction. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Kalaratiri
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tiny Temper wrote:Verone wrote: **** happens.
While I don't condone or agree with slavery, the blood is on the freighter pilot's hands for being thick headed and dumbassed enough to fly the vessel through Utopia of all places without an escort.
Whether they were slaves, mine workers, commercial passengers or livestock is irrelevant, a freighter or transport pilot has a duty of care and responsibility to their passengers and cargo.
You are probably disappointed that you did not get the opportunity to participate in the mass slaughter of my Minmatar brothers yourself pirate!
I have always found Verone to be courteous towards Matari and an avid detractor of slavery.
Maybe you should leave your insults for people you actually know. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10543
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Tiny Temper wrote:Verone wrote: **** happens.
While I don't condone or agree with slavery, the blood is on the freighter pilot's hands for being thick headed and dumbassed enough to fly the vessel through Utopia of all places without an escort.
Whether they were slaves, mine workers, commercial passengers or livestock is irrelevant, a freighter or transport pilot has a duty of care and responsibility to their passengers and cargo.
You are probably disappointed that you did not get the opportunity to participate in the mass slaughter of my Minmatar brothers yourself pirate! I have always found Verone to be courteous towards Matari and an avid detractor of slavery. Maybe you should leave your insults for people you actually know. Where's the fun in providing respectful, informed commentary? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
What a tragedy. This just goes to show once again what an abominable bunch of putrid low lives pirates are.
Los Muertas wrote:I would call for this pilots expulsion from the armed forces and to have their right to fly revoked. Pirates will be pirates, they have their own jobs to fulfill so they cannot be blamed for doing what they do. I concur. Why should we not reproach this pack of murderers? Because they chose their profession and are unwilling to change? What kind of argument is that? |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10545
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Posted - 2012.06.24 18:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
A pragmatic one? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
So because someone is unwilling to change his or her behavior you simply tolerate it, no matter how opposed you are to it? Are you really such a pushover, Lyris? I donGÇÖt see how this is pragmatic unless you avoid every and all conflicts. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10545
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 18:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:So because someone is unwilling to change his or her behavior you simply tolerate it, no matter how opposed you are to it? Are you really such a pushover, Lyris? I donGÇÖt see how this is pragmatic unless you avoid every and all conflicts. A quick review of my combat record and my posting history will show that I do not avoid conflicts.
But there is a difference between avoiding conflict and picking one's battles. If you are opposed to something that you cannot possibly alter, then tolerance is pretty much your only recourse. That is what seems to be the case here, though do correct me if I've misjudged your ability. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Quick question: Ultimately child abuse (or pretty much every other prime) cannot be prevented but does that really stop you from condemning said crimes? Do you really just shrug your shoulders at them and go GÇ£Meh, I canGÇÖt change itGÇ¥?
So then why would the fact that I cannot GÇ£prevent piracyGÇ¥ stop me from condemning it as the horrible malefaction that it is? Attitudes like yours are what benefits piracy among other things. If it were up to people like you then CONCORD would not even bother to punish criminals in high sec space. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
635
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:If it were up to people like you then CONCORD would not even bother to punish criminals in high sec space.
That's a fairly well known opinion of Goonswarm Federation. They've never liked CONCORD or anyone who operates under CONCORD protection, hence why they live in nullsec and sponsor suicidal 'ganks'.
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David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 20:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
I am aware of that. What I am trying to do is finding out whether she is able to admit to her hypocrisy or not (even if just indirectly) which is why I appealed to her selfishness (a common trait among GÇ£goonGÇ¥ scum). Would she tolerate crime merely because she cannot change it? Would that really stop her from admonishing evildoers that did her wrong? |
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10545
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 01:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:Quick question: Ultimately child abuse (or pretty much every other prime) cannot be prevented but does that really stop you from condemning said crimes? Do you really just shrug your shoulders at them and go GÇ£Meh, I canGÇÖt change itGÇ¥? Of course I do, and so do you. I challenge you to produce for us a r+¬sum+¬ of all the Very Bad Things you've personally opposed with direct or even indirect action rather than words. Just as you and I both turn blind eyes to the literally billions of planet-side humans who die every day of hunger or illness in worlds across the Cluster, the millions more whom are murdered, tortured, or abused in some other way, and the various legal injustices we might oppose, we also turn blind eyes towards child abuse and instead of doing something about it use it as a talking point on GalNet to advance our arguments. One of us even has the wherewithal to admit it.
Quote:So then why would the fact that I cannot GÇ£prevent piracyGÇ¥ stop me from condemning it as the horrible malefaction that it is? Attitudes like yours are what benefits piracy among other things. From my perspective the reason you should stop condemning it is twofold: first, because you lack the courage of your conviction to actually do something about it; second, because intellectual dishonesty is unbecoming an academic career.
Quote:If it were up to people like you then CONCORD would not even bother to punish criminals in high sec space. Where you see crime, I see business.
Quote:What I am trying to do is finding out whether she is able to admit to her hypocrisy or not (even if just indirectly) which is why I appealed to her selfishness (a common trait among GÇ£goonGÇ¥ scum). Would she tolerate crime merely because she cannot change it? Would that really stop her from admonishing evildoers that did her wrong? I am many things, Monsieur Toviyah, and many of them are not nice. Hypocrite is not one of my traits, insofar as any of my lackeys has ever told me. You're welcome to point out any inconsistency in my stated beliefs, however; and, I will even listen to you and reflect upon it. Who better than an idealistic University student to instruct me on the finer points of philosophy and morality, ne? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10545
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 01:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:David Toviyah wrote:If it were up to people like you then CONCORD would not even bother to punish criminals in high sec space. That's a fairly well known opinion of Goonswarm Federation. They've never liked CONCORD or anyone who operates under CONCORD protection, hence why they live in nullsec and sponsor suicidal 'ganks'. CONCORD is nothing more than an extortion ring. Though if you listen to Jade Constantine, she will tell you that the high cost of maintaining a 50-entity war declaration against us is proof we have them in our pockets. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Scherezad
Hobgoblin Marketeers
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Of course I do, and so do you. I challenge you to produce for us a r+¬sum+¬ of all the Very Bad Things you've personally opposed with direct or even indirect action rather than words. Just as you and I both turn blind eyes to the literally billions of planet-side humans who die every day of hunger or illness in worlds across the Cluster, the millions more whom are murdered, tortured, or abused in some other way, and the various legal injustices we might oppose, we also turn blind eyes towards child abuse and instead of doing something about it use it as a talking point on GalNet to advance our arguments. One of us even has the wherewithal to admit it. Hyperbole. Because one cannot do everything does not prevent them from doing anything. A moral actor will oppose those evils which lie in their path, which is the course of action you suggest. Further, having a moral failure in one area does not excuse moral inaction in another. You are confusing morality with self-awareness, these aren't the same things.
I encourage you in continuing to call out the moral turpitude of those you find it in, however. Your point on the inaction of our community stands.
Quote:From my perspective the reason you should stop condemning it is twofold: first, because you lack the courage of your conviction to actually do something about it; second, because intellectual dishonesty is unbecoming an academic career. Neither intellectual dishonesty nor inconsistency are characteristics of moral actions. One can take moral actions while being inconsistent in their application.
Quote:Where you see crime, I see business. You are making a poor platform for your lectures on moral character.
Quote:I am many things, Monsieur Toviyah, and many of them are not nice. Hypocrite is not one of my traits, insofar as any of my lackeys has ever told me. You're welcome to point out any inconsistency in my stated beliefs, however; and, I will even listen to you and reflect upon it. Who better than an idealistic University student to instruct me on the finer points of philosophy and morality, ne? Please see above. I hope that these comments help you to clarify and strengthen your arguments.
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10547
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 14:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
I welcome your input, Scherezad, but I caution you against assuming that I am or represent a moral character.
With that said, I did enjoy your comments. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Scherezad
Hobgoblin Marketeers
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 15:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:I welcome your input, Scherezad, but I caution you against assuming that I am or represent a moral character.
With that said, I did enjoy your comments.
I don't make the assumption, your allegiance is clear. You're making statements about morality, not acting morally. These are very different things - one requires us act against our instincts, another can be done casually from the armchair. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10549
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
I am nothing if not someone's left hand. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:32:00 -
[47] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:You're making statements about morality, not acting morally. These are very different things - one requires us act against our instincts, another can be done casually from the armchair.
Take it from a demented capsuleer, pilot: morality is intuitive at its core, very much a matter of acting in accordance with certain instincts. That there are other, countervailing instincts does not negate this. Losing some, most, or all of those moral instincts is a significant change that mere reasoning ability does not easily make up for. |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 16:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
It's less about a coherent system of values, and more about a grab-bag of instincts, yes. Quite strong ones. Stepping back and analyzing exactly how I managed to get so gloriously screwed up, it's less a matter of losing or supplanting my moral beliefs and instincts, and more circumventing or co-opting them. We're wired to help, support, and love our in-group, and ignore or stomp on the out-group. Rather than fight against that, I've simply shifted the definition of what's a worthy target. And not by much.
It's easy. All it takes is a little ignoring, maybe a slight tweak of a mental switch. Almost everyone out of capsuleer school knows how to do it. That, or you realize in full your actions every time you pop one of those fat red crosses on your overview. In which case, Maker help you - you're probably gone farther than I am already. |
Scherezad
Hobgoblin Marketeers
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:05:00 -
[49] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Take it from a demented capsuleer, pilot: morality is intuitive at its core, very much a matter of acting in accordance with certain instincts. That there are other, countervailing instincts does not negate this. Losing some, most, or all of those moral instincts is a significant change that mere reasoning ability does not easily make up for.
I respect you greatly, Pilot, but I hardly think that having dementia makes a positive case for your claim. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10549
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 17:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jev North wrote:It's easy. All it takes is a little ignoring, maybe a slight tweak of a mental switch. Almost everyone out of capsuleer school knows how to do it. I suspect that anyone who's ever received any sort of military training has such a mental switch.
Quote:That, or you realize in full your actions every time you pop one of those fat red crosses on your overview. I don't see why these two points need be separate. I know what I do: I kill people and break things, the same as any other combat pilot of the common era or any soldier of any era. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
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Makkal Hanaya
Drakenburg
216
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Scherezad wrote:You're making statements about morality, not acting morally. These are very different things - one requires us act against our instincts, another can be done casually from the armchair. Take it from a demented capsuleer, pilot: morality is intuitive at its core, very much a matter of acting in accordance with certain instincts. That there are other, countervailing instincts does not negate this. Losing some, most, or all of those moral instincts is a significant change that mere reasoning ability does not easily make up for. Instincts are of the flesh. Morality issues from the divine spirit within all human beings.
Simple observation gives evidence to this. If I see another in pain and feel the need to help them, that's nothing like feeling hungry because I haven't eaten and smell a hot meal or feeling fear because it's dark and I've heard a loud noise.
While a person can deny their moral spirit, they never lose it. It is part of what it means to be human. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
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Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:37:00 -
[52] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:... I hardly think that having dementia makes a positive case for your claim.
Some things are conspicuous primarily in their absence. Oxygen, for example, or the reluctance of a weapon of mass destruction for hire to detonate unarmed, unhardened, inhabited civilian structures in order to watch the pretty lights.
Or the capacity of same to feel guilty about it, after.
The Demented pass from caring to not caring. Unlike certain other types of dementia, it is not our reason that erodes, or our minds as a whole; it is our emotional, instinctive capacity to give a damn. My going theory is that this has to do with a distortion in the scale of our perspective-- exemplified in the capacity of a hunting pilot to regard a freighter full of thousands of people (not always, or usually, cargo-- it takes a large crew to run a starship of that size and complexity) as a single target and a desirable kill.
The process appears distinct from the usual de-socialization and retribalization (not like the Matari, more like a street gang) that characterizes pirate crews: it's an estrangement from the very humanity of the target. A kill such as the one described above is unlikely to draw any emotional recognition from the predatory pilot that somebody, to say nothing of thousands of somebodies, just died. The first (and often only) thought is usually for the capsuleer pilot, which draws a shrug-- the capsuleer is safe and sound in a clone bay, likely light years away.
The descriptive analysis above is what reason buys you, pilot. Morality is instinct shaped by culture, which is why attempts to encode it as a matter of logic fail without exception.
Perhaps I am unusually, or even unnaturally and obsessively, aware of this because of my determination to track my own state. Whatever the reason, my capacity for moral impulse is a quality I miss like a severed limb. So yes, my status as one of the Demented does give me a particular perspective on this subject. |
Scherezad
Hobgoblin Marketeers
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 20:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Perhaps I am unusually, or even unnaturally and obsessively, aware of this because of my determination to track my own state. Whatever the reason, my capacity for moral impulse is a quality I miss like a severed limb. So yes, my status as one of the Demented does give me a particular perspective on this subject.
I disagree, but retract the point. This is not the place for that sort of conversation, and I apologize for bringing it up. |
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
159
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 00:55:00 -
[54] - Quote
160.800 lives lost to senseless violence; this was the beginning subject of this thread. This image has occupied my thoughts and even my dreams a great deal and I have pondered how to attach significance to these lives lost in some demonstrable way. Besides the ongoing work of freeing those under the bondage of slaver, I felt that some symbol needed to be put forth to remember these lives. 160,800 are sadi to have perished though I hope some survived and maybe were rescued. However, assuming all perished, I felt the need to honor their lives with the same number of lives.
160,800 slaves have been freed from the clutches of their slave masters in Amarr and Khanid space. NUVOS has secured these individuals bringing them safely to a center in the Aharalel system. We thank DSTON for receiving them at their Center there. These men, women, boys and girls have been told the story of the loss of their brothers and sisters and that freeing them from slavery honors the sanctity of those lost. These 160,800 shall not be lost to the violence of pirates; they shall never again come under the lash and shackle.
"This is a good beginning to freedom," one of their Elders said. Would that we could do the same for every life lost. Though we have not the resources, we shall not be deterred from doing what we can and freeing as many as we can.
Perhaps for some it was significant, that these newly freed ones were transported aboard a specially fitted liner; an Obelisk christened the "Emancipate." Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can. |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 05:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Perhaps I am unusually, or even unnaturally and obsessively, aware of this because of my determination to track my own state. Whatever the reason, my capacity for moral impulse is a quality I miss like a severed limb. So yes, my status as one of the Demented does give me a particular perspective on this subject. I disagree, but retract the point. This is not the place for that sort of conversation, and I apologize for bringing it up.
As you wish. While our ... state ... as capsuleers does seem on-topic, you may be right that such an abstracted discussion as the root nature of morality is out of place here. There will be other opportunities, I'm sure. Some will probably even involve less notable losses of life. |
Halete
Echoes of Korgoth Initiative
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 06:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
I've been following with keen interest. Perhaps a separate thread is in order? Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 08:03:00 -
[57] - Quote
Well, Lyris, Scherezad already spoke for me and you swiftly conceded so there isnGÇÖt really anything left for me to say. But let me ask you this: How exactly would I go about changing anything about the issues you listed? You know damn well that we capsuleers are restrained by lightyears of red tape when it comes to interactions with planetary populations. Heck, only two years ago we were not even able to found colonies on unchartered planets, much less interfere with the politics of populated worlds. Believe me, if I could I would mostly certainly devote large parts of my funds to humanitarian missions. The same goes for piracy. Nothing short of violence would really stop them and even that seems unlikely at best. So as a pacifist the only thing that I can actually do with all the bureaucratic hurdles is what you refuse to do: Drawing attention to this crime, raising awareness and pushing for harder sanctions by CONCORD. Winning hearts and minds on the one hand, increasing the pressure on them on the other hand. If you see another possibility for battling this scourge in a non-violent way, please, do tell.
Oh and for your information, my enrollment at the University of Caille no longer serves its original intent, that is, qualification for an academic career. I have moved on to interstellar trading and my studies are merely a pastime now GÇö although my Archeology courses there did help me a few times on my exploration runs. |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated
67
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 09:53:00 -
[58] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:..as a pacifist.. ..interstellar trading... ..my exploration runs. Do you run when the inevitable pirates show up on those exploration outings, or do you simply consider them non-persons by virtue of the bounty on their heads?
What do you trade, and to who? What do you think it gets used for? |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10549
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 11:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
If you will excuse me saying so, Monsieur Toviyah, you strike me as someone afraid to get his hands dirty. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 12:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
If by GÇ£getting oneGÇÖs hands dirtyGÇ¥ you mean GÇ£committing unspeakable atrocitiesGÇ¥ and by GÇ£afraid toGÇ¥ you mean GÇ£morally opposed to with every fiber of my beingGÇ¥ then you are correct. Otherwise IGÇÖm afraid that you are mistaken.
Jev North wrote:Do you run when the inevitable pirates show up on those exploration outings, or do you simply consider them non-persons by virtue of the bounty on their heads? Inevitable pirates? Excuse me, dear? I didnGÇÖt know that Sleeper Drones were granted human rights by now.
Jev North wrote:What do you trade, and to who? What do you think it gets used for? Implants, mostly, and to fellow capsuleers. As for their use, I suppose they are bought to improve their perception and what have you not? |
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