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Pteranodon
Caldari Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2009.12.20 11:31:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pteranodon on 20/12/2009 11:32:16 I don't understand why jump freighters have not been given a bit of defensive capability especially when you consider the cost of jump freighters.
I understand all the arguments about not flying anything valuable alone or don't fly what you can't afford to lose but this is a completely different issue.
In the case of a JF you have 4 billion worth of ship that can't defend itself in the slightest. If I read the description about the advanced loading optimisation you just wonder if this is an excuse by CCP to generate a massive ISK sink when it gets caught by an opportunistic gang.
What would be good on jump freighters would be a drone bay capable of fielding 5 heavy drones or a slot that could fit ECM/ECCM.
I think with cargo capacities of 350K M3 & up there is room to give up 125 M3- don't you?
With some counter measures you might just get lucky enough to shake off that tackler before his mates get to you.
Please don't counter with the argument that flying a JF is so safe that it's impossible to get caught because you can get caught & when it happens your going to be crying all the way to the bank.
No I have not been caught yet and I don't fly a JF on this toon so don't waste your time looking for me as I'm sure you have far juicer targets than me to go after.
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ResearchAlt 258
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Posted - 2009.12.20 11:38:00 -
[2]
In that case, we should give the Freighter 8 high slots to fit dreadnought-sized weapons. I mean, 800k m3+ should be able to field 8 siege weapons.
The argument is, a freighter is used to freight goods. If you want a ship that can freight goods and defend itself, use an Orca or an Industrial.
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Pteranodon
Caldari Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2009.12.20 11:52:00 -
[3]
Originally by: ResearchAlt 258 In that case, we should give the Freighter 8 high slots to fit dreadnought-sized weapons. I mean, 800k m3+ should be able to field 8 siege weapons.
The argument is, a freighter is used to freight goods. If you want a ship that can freight goods and defend itself, use an Orca or an Industrial.
I think you know what I meant & it is fairly clear through self interpretation that I did not want the JF turned in Battlestar Galactica but at least it should have some defensive capability. I did ask the question why & not whether we should turn the JF into a deathstar- I did say 1 slot.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2009.12.20 12:00:00 -
[4]
Cost of ship, cost of cargo in ship....want good defence, have your corp or friends provide some intel and scouts for end and mid point jump systems. Given beefy hp's...start letting these things have slots for weapons, electronics, etc would be abused.
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.12.20 13:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pteranodon ...you just wonder if this is an excuse by CCP to generate a massive ISK sink when it gets caught by an opportunistic gang...
Umm just a note, this is not an ISK sink. ISK sinks are where ISK is destroyed and leaves the game. Like buying skills, paying office bills and taxes. The ISK you paid for the JF still exists in the wallet of the person you bought it from. CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.20 13:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: EdwardNardella
Originally by: Pteranodon ...you just wonder if this is an excuse by CCP to generate a massive ISK sink when it gets caught by an opportunistic gang...
Umm just a note, this is not an ISK sink. ISK sinks are where ISK is destroyed and leaves the game. Like buying skills, paying office bills and taxes. The ISK you paid for the JF still exists in the wallet of the person you bought it from.
So youre saying that no value is lost when a JF turns into a JF-wreck?
Try to sell a wreck for 4 bn at Jita then.
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.12.20 13:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Swiftgaze
Originally by: EdwardNardella
Originally by: Pteranodon ...you just wonder if this is an excuse by CCP to generate a massive ISK sink when it gets caught by an opportunistic gang...
Umm just a note, this is not an ISK sink. ISK sinks are where ISK is destroyed and leaves the game. Like buying skills, paying office bills and taxes. The ISK you paid for the JF still exists in the wallet of the person you bought it from.
So youre saying that no value is lost when a JF turns into a JF-wreck?
Try to sell a wreck for 4 bn at Jita then.
Read it again, then learn what a sink is. We are talking about economic terms. Global economics do not give a boop about what happens in your personal wallet. What you are saying is like saying cat's poo adds to the rate of cat's deads.
EVEwatch Sidebar soon "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " |
Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.20 13:58:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 20/12/2009 14:01:33
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
Originally by: Swiftgaze
Originally by: EdwardNardella
Originally by: Pteranodon ...you just wonder if this is an excuse by CCP to generate a massive ISK sink when it gets caught by an opportunistic gang...
Umm just a note, this is not an ISK sink. ISK sinks are where ISK is destroyed and leaves the game. Like buying skills, paying office bills and taxes. The ISK you paid for the JF still exists in the wallet of the person you bought it from.
So youre saying that no value is lost when a JF turns into a JF-wreck?
Try to sell a wreck for 4 bn at Jita then.
Read it again, then learn what a sink is. We are talking about economic terms. Global economics do not give a boop about what happens in your personal wallet. What you are saying is like saying cat's poo adds to the rate of cat's deads.
Im thinking globally already. jumpfreighter still there, 100000 billion ISK worth in assets in the universe, jumpfreighter goes boom, 99996 billion ISK worth in assets in the universe.
EDIT: "Learn what a sink is" olololol. You big economist.
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.12.20 14:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Swiftgaze Im thinking globally already. jumpfreighter still there, 100000 billion ISK worth in assets in the universe, jumpfreighter goes boom, 99996 billion ISK worth in assets in the universe.
Now think about what you wrote, what have been blown are the assets, not the isk. That's why it is not an isk sink. Because you have not destroyed any isk. Infact this is an isk faucet (small one in case of t2), because with insurance you bring more isks into the system. Quote: EDIT: "Learn what a sink is" olololol. You big economist.
I only play economics in the game. It is not about being an economist. It is about knowing what you are talking about, I said that without second intentions, when you learn about what a sink is, you will see that blowing up a ship isn't. Just google it.
EVEwatch Sidebar soon "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " |
Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.20 15:36:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 20/12/2009 15:46:13 Possibly touchT!
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.12.20 16:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Swiftgaze Edited by: Swiftgaze on 20/12/2009 15:38:31 Well in that case we shouldnt worry about wars at all because the more people get blown up, the more ISK there is in the game. Excellent.
Youre pretty clever. Im sure youre good at whatever you do.
EDIT: Nevermind I forgot that NPC corps and stations dont exist at all in this game and thus shouldnt be considered for further elaboration of the topic.
Excessive isk in the game would be a problem for sure, but wars help to activate the economy by moving more isks and ships blown are a resource sink (minerals). Think that when you pay someone with isks you have you are not changing the number of isks that are in the game, it's easy to realize. Sinks and faucets refer to the number of isks that are in the game.
EVEwatch Sidebar soon "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " |
Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.20 16:12:00 -
[12]
Dude, why did you reply to something that I edited 20 minutes before already? :(
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Swiftgaze Dude, why did you reply to something that I edited 20 minutes before already? :(
Because I clicked reply and left there without submitting while I did other things, then submitted. I didn't know you edited it when submitted. Sorry if it bothers you, it was not my intention.
EVEwatch Sidebar soon "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Misanthra Cost of ship, cost of cargo in ship....want good defence, have your corp or friends provide some intel and scouts for end and mid point jump systems. Given beefy hp's...start letting these things have slots for weapons, electronics, etc would be abused.
seconding this.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Gith Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:08:00 -
[15]
I think it would be wicked to be able to PVP in a freighter. I approve of the OP's suggestion, we need at least 6 high slots on the jumpfreighters, and at minimum 5/5 mid/low also so i can tank properly and tackle at the same time. Also need room for sebos because i doubt a freighter can lock smaller victems very fast.
Also, because its so big its not fair to just leave it floating out there, it should be able to fit covops cloaks as well, and since its tech2, it should have the ability to load/unload in space, to supply people with ammo. Also give it a command bonus, i mean, a ship like that must have an awesome bridge and tons of people able to oversee the battlefield.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Undivided
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:46:00 -
[16]
Also, a DDD to discourage cap hotdrops.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:23:00 -
[17]
Jump Freighters already have an excellent defense - the ability to move through space faster than most other ships and the ability to bypass stargates entirely. What would fitting 5 heavy drones do? You'd still get killed hilariously easily. A single ship will still kill the JF if you dont bring friends fast enough.
Also, you don't know what an isk sink is. Exploding ships creates an isk faucet from the insurance payout. The loss of the materials used to build the ship, or the ship's modules or cargo, is irrelevant in this regard. ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Swiftgaze
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Also, you don't know what an isk sink is. Exploding ships creates an isk faucet from the insurance payout. The loss of the materials used to build the ship, or the ship's modules or cargo, is irrelevant in this regard.
Also, you dont know what touchT means. :P
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Swiftgaze
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Also, you don't know what an isk sink is. Exploding ships creates an isk faucet from the insurance payout. The loss of the materials used to build the ship, or the ship's modules or cargo, is irrelevant in this regard.
Also, you dont know what touchT means. :P
I was responding to the OP, who are you? ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Grarr Wrexx
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Posted - 2009.12.20 18:46:00 -
[20]
Ever seen an IRL tanker with cannons? I haven't.
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Caphelo
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Posted - 2009.12.20 19:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Grarr Wrexx Ever seen an IRL tanker with cannons? I haven't.
Pretty common during the world wars.
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Pteranodon
Caldari Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2009.12.20 20:01:00 -
[22]
I don't know if its just me but the trolls are out in force with this post.
I said clearly that I had a wish for one slot, no more & that only to fit an ECM/ECCM & nothing more. If we got drones too then great but I'm not holding my breath.
I think the general opinion is NO you can't have any freighter defence & thats fine by me but it don't answer the question "Why not"?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.12.20 20:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Pteranodon I don't know if its just me but the trolls are out in force with this post.
I said clearly that I had a wish for one slot, no more & that only to fit an ECM/ECCM & nothing more. If we got drones too then great but I'm not holding my breath.
I think the general opinion is NO you can't have any freighter defence & thats fine by me but it don't answer the question "Why not"?
Because it is about team play. a falcon/rook/griffin/blackbird would have much better chance to break locks. a rapier/huginn/hyena could help it to warp out quickly after freed from tackle. a few dps ships could kill the aggressors.
your unbonused multispec has such a low chance of saving you. and if you really died to a single attacker, your corp/alliance fails horribly at defending their assets. i heard noir also does freighter escort.
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Aurelius Valentius
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.20 20:38:00 -
[24]
I would support a limited number of modules for Jump and Regular Freighters - based on the ingame mech for not allowing most modules to fit, the type of slots and the theme that Freighters are cargo ships and are large assets that would logically have some "defense" and "anti-tackle" gear.
1. NO weapons, or slots for such or drone bays... that is counter to the role (Q-ships are another discussion completely and not for here).
2. Rigs would be fine, as they would self limit to probably just what the ship needed as most rigs would do nothing for the ship as it would lack modules to boost.
3. Lows, and Mids, restricted to "Anti-Tackle" items - ECM (Burst), WCS, and such - logical things that would fall into the catagory of "modifications for the preservation of the ship" only - it's not going to stay and fight, it should have options only of that sort.
4. Then these should be Cap Only Mods for Freigthers only - and Balanced to the game.
This and a "route optimizer, where you put in stops and you get a best route plan out" would be a nice mini-update to trade... Oh and the ability to "lock" ships for see what damage they have might be nice... or at least knowing when I get an auto return on a incoming at a gate.... the current no locks sucks, as locks aren't always for shooting... CCP Devs!
How about a "Lock" alarm for freighters? since we can't set auto-return lock brainiacs.
: )
and barring this all - Flash support in the ingaem browser for youtube if I am stuck with what is a hauler in the game as now... I want to watch "Movies while I warp".
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.12.21 10:57:00 -
[25]
its a freighter, dude!
Freight trains and ships dont have guns on them too. They are "civil" vessels and require external protection in hostile environments.
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Czert ElPrezidente
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Posted - 2009.12.21 11:32:00 -
[26]
I think we need to make clear in which TIME is game.
1.I it PEACE time ? Think today time earth - onlyest thear to ships are pirates, with light arms insufficient to sink ship and thier goal is to RANSOM money. Freighters are unarmed and uneqiped for self defense, relying on suppor of navy and will of empoyes to pay money. 2. Elevated danger time ? think golden era of piracy (1680-1700), or generaly sail-ship era. Trader have very limited defence capacity, enough to fend of "flies", but falling into hands of determined attacker. Main goal was to LOOT cargo and seize everthing valuable. 3. War times - think about word war I/II - freighters are general target for ships, they are armed up to thiers limmits, crew manning weapons is from navy. Firepower is enough to fend off any attack lighter than cruiser sized. (and in one case, this ship sank regular criser during WWII).
So, which era fits to EVE ?
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Aurelius Valentius
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.21 11:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Czert ElPrezidente I think we need to make clear in which TIME is game.
1.I it PEACE time ? Think today time earth - onlyest thear to ships are pirates, with light arms insufficient to sink ship and thier goal is to RANSOM money. Freighters are unarmed and uneqiped for self defense, relying on suppor of navy and will of empoyes to pay money. 2. Elevated danger time ? think golden era of piracy (1680-1700), or generaly sail-ship era. Trader have very limited defence capacity, enough to fend of "flies", but falling into hands of determined attacker. Main goal was to LOOT cargo and seize everthing valuable. 3. War times - think about word war I/II - freighters are general target for ships, they are armed up to thiers limmits, crew manning weapons is from navy. Firepower is enough to fend off any attack lighter than cruiser sized. (and in one case, this ship sank regular criser during WWII).
So, which era fits to EVE ?
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2009.12.21 12:22:00 -
[28]
Is it really that hard to find corpmates to watch the route. was in a null sec alliance. Had a great, reliable, jf service. Price per m3 charged...ship was paid off easy. Since a corp effort, sure the corp made out like a bandit too. If in a corp knowing I'd get free or reduced shipping to null sec...tell me when and where you need my cloaky to get eyes in system and I'll be there 10 minutes early to get me a good seat.
Some ships just aren't meant to go into low/null sec alone. This is one of them. Look at carriers, another "freighter" of sorts, or used heavily in that role anyway. Can defend itself quite nicely. Dropped into a bad spot beacause of bad/no intel and little to no support though...it will be on a kill mail.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.12.21 14:17:00 -
[29]
So basically you are asking to be able to fit cyno to magically summon capital hotdrop??? Or fit a cloak???
Giving drone bay would be just too easy way out of trouble with ecm drones or light drones to kill a lucky tackling frigate etc...
Unless you're making some mistake it's pretty much impossible to catch a jump freighter. Just undock and cyno etc... you really don't need anything else on freighters...
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.12.21 14:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Also, a DDD to discourage cap hotdrops.
Make that aoe DDD, so i also kill the cyno. Don't want more caps jumping in on me, while I already spent it. ---
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