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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
Sunset Rogue
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Posted - 2009.12.30 06:39:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Rejected Enlightenment Any plans to mitigate bomb damage to fighters/fighterbombers, one decent bombing run and you're out quite a bit of isk and most of your firepower.
Could just give fighters and fighterbombers an inherent bomb resist. Maybe 75% role bonus against bombs or something.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.30 18:03:00 -
[542]
Why in hell peopel keep askign for more and more ships for gang bonuses if people don 't even use the ones we have? We have Tier 1 and 2 BC we have 2 command ships per race one with extra bonuses. We have carriers, we have titans we have t3 cruisers.
NO ONE NEEDS MORE GANG BONUSES SHIPS! For god sake.. there are thousands of options much more fun and this one is the most overused in eve!
Even a capital ship that throws snowballs is more interestign for the game than EVEN MORE warfare link ships!
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Buzz Aldrino
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Posted - 2009.12.30 19:07:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Rejected Enlightenment Any plans to mitigate bomb damage to fighters/fighterbombers, one decent bombing run and you're out quite a bit of isk and most of your firepower.
Also, split drone/fighter bays in 1.1 or sometime in the future (or never)
A nice way would be to simply reduce the signature radiu sof both fighter and bomber. Never made sence to me that supposedly nimble ships could be hit as easy by battleships, cruisers even should have problems. Also resistances of both should be increased while ehp decreased to make remote repping count more.
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Tweakalvos
Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.12.30 21:01:00 -
[544]
Yay for Good Devs that Know the game they play!!!!
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LoveKebab
Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2009.12.30 21:40:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Sunset Rogue
Originally by: Rejected Enlightenment Any plans to mitigate bomb damage to fighters/fighterbombers, one decent bombing run and you're out quite a bit of isk and most of your firepower.
Could just give fighters and fighterbombers an inherent bomb resist. Maybe 75% role bonus against bombs or something.
im crying inside ...
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Sunset Rogue
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Posted - 2009.12.31 02:02:00 -
[546]
Originally by: LoveKebab
Originally by: Sunset Rogue Could just give fighters and fighterbombers an inherent bomb resist. Maybe 75% role bonus against bombs or something.
im crying inside ...
Crying with tears of joy I see. Because Abathur has already said that FB vulnerability against bombs is a problem.
He also said that FB already have a fair amount of HP, so giving them more is not a very good solution as they would be too hard to kill by conventional methods.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.12.31 08:43:00 -
[547]
I think buffing the remote ecm burst is the key.
What if it was able to jam dreads in siege/carriers in triage/supercarriers/titans
This would give supercarriers a role and serve to reduce dread blobs.
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NedFromAssembly
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.31 09:17:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Sigras I think buffing the remote ecm burst is the key.
What if it was able to jam dreads in siege/carriers in triage/supercarriers/titans
This would give supercarriers a role and serve to reduce dread blobs.
You should hop on sisi and find out it already can. I cant tell you the number of times ive ECM bursted myself while also hitting something nearby.
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McFly
C0LDFIRE
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Posted - 2009.12.31 11:01:00 -
[549]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: NedFromAssembly For those who have missed it, the HP buff is on sisi, nothing else about it seems to be yet.
All changes in the OP should now be on SiSi. If something didn't make it or there are market seeding issues, etc... please bring it to our attention.
More replies later.
Been a few days, and still no skill/item seeds in FD- or anywhere else for that matter.
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Hot Tubes
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.31 13:45:00 -
[550]
Edited by: Hot Tubes on 31/12/2009 13:45:58 I've read through MOST of the topic so please forgive me if this has come up before.
Are there any plans to give the Moros a role bonus of a boost to drone control range? For long range fights the 60km range (full skills, no range module) isn't really long enough sometimes.
Edit: this is for sentry use of course
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Dismond Tiny
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Posted - 2009.12.31 15:20:00 -
[551]
I had an idea to give Supper Carriers a special role. How about Capital Class Energy Neutralizers and Vampires that can only be fitted on SCs? Just a thought.
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RoCkEt X
Hostile.
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Posted - 2009.12.31 15:27:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Dismond Tiny I had an idea to give Supper Carriers a special role. How about Capital Class Energy Neutralizers and Vampires that can only be fitted on SCs? Just a thought.
as most SC's will now rely on EHP fits rather than repper/active based fits, its unlikely they'll have the cap recharge to support such a module anyway. although its a nice idea, i dont think the SC is the right ship for it.
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Lachender Henker
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2009.12.31 15:48:00 -
[553]
I actually like to see fighter-bombers using the bombs stealthbombers use or at least something Squivalent and generate a new AOE effect like that. Depends on how many of those fighter-bombers you will be able to launch you can set bonuses and stats.
For example:
Minmatar Fighter-Bomber:
99,5% amor explosive resistance
5000 explosive damage volley ( per bomb )
explosion radius 10km
10k armor hp 10k shield hp 10 k struc hp a bit less resis to other dmg types since the focus is on explosive resis.
rate of fire 20 seconds
The fighterbomber get 2% Dmg bonus for fighter-bomber-skill per level in this szenario. Carrier-Skill may give another 2% per level for each race ( Hel 2% explosive, Aeon 2% em ... )
In Numbers:
F-B LVL 5 + carrier LVL 5 = 20% Damage Bonus in total 10 FighterBomber Maximum
10 x 6000 = 60000 Damage per volley in a 10 km radius 60000/20 = 3000 DPS in a 10 km radius
For you guys to compare with normal Stealth-Bombers: if i remember correctly you can fire 7 bombs at the same time before they start killing each other, correct me if i am wrong. But i¦ll do my calculations with 7 for now:
Covert ops lvl 5 8000k DmG per bomb
7 x 8000 = 56000 dmg with 15 km radius
so basicly were looking at:
60k dmg in 10 km Radius from f-bombers vs 56k dmg in 15 km radius from 7 stealthbombers
i think that does not look too bad. considering that you need carrier 5, fighters 5, fighterbombers 5 compared to frig 5 cov-op 5 ,i do not even wanna start with the money difference...
also limiting the fighter bomber controlrange to 150 km should make sure that the MS/SC are in harms way when they decide to launch their bombers. You could also restrict em to 0.0 space only like the titan dd is for 0.0 space only, too.
This concept would also focus the ships more on their race and also make sure that MS/SC with different races can not work together on big scale and generate a huge bubble of mayhem. ALso, that way coordination/teamplay is required like we all and ccp like (most).
For normal fighters, on ms/sc i would suggest to boost the damage and reduce the tracking, that way capital ships take more damage from fighters. On the other hand sup caps will be more or less hit like we are used to now. Obviously if they get webbed and painted they will take more damage. This way ms/sc have better chances to be effective in lowsec against other caps like it was intended with fighterbombers, f0r 0.0 they got the other toy i described above.
I hear the "that is too much damage if..." remember the fighterbombers can be killed by the surrounding support outside the 10 km radius and ms/sc sooner or later run out of f-bombers. Also by limiting the f-bombers within a 150km rage you avoid asigning f-bombers to ceptors at a gate with the ms/sc sitting at the pos, so no "assigned mini dd".
My ideas are based on actually exposing the ship and risking a lot, if you bring your ship in. Thats why i think that the current dd range is too far, but thats a different story.
I¦d really like to see your guys imput on this one.
Henker
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Phaton
Ascent of Ages Art of Defiance
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Posted - 2009.12.31 16:40:00 -
[554]
I wanted to test fighter bombers but it seems that they nor thier bpo's have been seeded, anyone else had this problem?
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.12.31 21:36:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Phaton I wanted to test fighter bombers but it seems that they nor thier bpo's have been seeded, anyone else had this problem?
skillbook isn't seeded either ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2009.12.31 21:45:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Lachender Henker stuff
Because we TOTALLY need new AOE mounted on supercapital hull that can kill BS gang in 20 seconds flat amrite?
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William Caldon
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.12.31 23:44:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lachender Henker stuff
Because we TOTALLY need new AOE mounted on supercapital hull that can kill BS gang in 20 seconds flat amrite?
This is why the above idea fails. It was bad enough with the Titan, lets not make it 100X worse with your idiotic out of whack idea.
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Kaimi Fateseeker
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Posted - 2010.01.01 03:28:00 -
[558]
Originally by: Arra Lith Edited by: Arra Lith on 24/12/2009 09:06:01Missile-based capital ship (Phoenix) really needs some serious overhaul. Or there will be only 3 dreads worth using.
Main disadvantage of missiles is delayed damage. Delayed damage means that missile-ship starts doing damage after ~ 20 seconds (depends on range to target) - thats usually 1 less volley than gunnery-ships. If enemy ship is killed by gunnery alpha than missile ships will always do 0 damage. On conventional ships this is compensated by two things. First is ability to adjust damage type (same as gunnery ships can adjust damage/range by switching ammo - projectiles can adjust both damage type dealt and range now). Second is that base missile damage is at least same as closest range gunnery ammo. Here is some comparision - proof:
1) Cruise missile launcher II vs 425mm Railgun II Cruise DMG = 300 / RoF = 17.6 Base DPS (unmodified by skills and ship bonuses) = 17.045
425mm Railgun + Antimatter L DMG = 48 * DmgMod = 3.3 / RoF = 9.563 Base DPS = 16.56
Cruise / 425mm ratio = 102.93% (almost 3 % higher base dps)
2) Siege torpedo II vs Neutron Blaster II Torpedo DMG = 450 / RoF = 14.4 Base DPS = 31.25
Neutron Blaster + Antimatter L DMG = 48 * DmgMod = 4.2 / RoF = 7.875 Base DPS = 25.6
Torpedo / Neutron ratio = 122.07% (almost 22 % higher base dps)
3) Heavy Missile II vs Railgun 250mm II HM DMG = 150 / RoF = 12 Base DPS = 12.5
Railgun 250mm + Antimatter M DMG = 24 * DmgMod = 3.3 / RoF = 6.375 Base DPS = 12.42
HM / Railgun = 100.6% (almost same base dps)
That is why missiles work at conventional ships, despite disadvantages (lower bonuses from skills / delayed damage) - they work especially well in PvE. Higher base DPS is KEY.
As for capital ships. Citadel missiles keep all their disadvantages but DO NOT KEEP THEIR ADVANTAGES !!!
Proof:
4) Citadel Cruise vs Dual 1000mm CC DMG = 1500 / RoF = 44 Base DPS = 34.09
Dual 1000mm + Antimatter XL DMG = 96 * DmgMod = 5.8 (new) / RoF = 14.345 Base DPS = 38.81
CitadelCruise / Rail1000mm ratio = 87.8 % (13% lower dps) Delayed damage = equal to first 2 missed volleys (30 seconds missile travel time)
5) Citadel Torpedo vs Ion Siege Blaster CT DMG = 2000 / RoF = 34 Base DPS = 58.82
Ion Siege + Antimatter XL DMG = 96 * DmgMod = 7.92 / RoF = 6.375 Base DPS = 119.26
Torpedo / Ion Siege ratio = 49.32 % (almost 2x lower dps) Delayed damage = equal to first 3 missed volleys (22.5 seconds missile travel time)
Phoenix can't switch damage dealt, like Raven (or Golem) - without losing its damage bonus. Phoenix deal much less DPS than other dreads with highest-damage ammo - making higher DPS as trade off for delayed damage no longer valid. Phoenix still deal delayed damage (thats always min 2 volley hits less than other dreads - 3 less with close range).
When you see those numbers at capitals - Im sure first though is - something is broken here ? Especially with close range weapons - torpedos dealing 2x less damage than Blasters AND Torpedos "missing" first 3 cycles (damage kicks in after blasters succesfully shoot 3 times) AND torpedos cant switch damage type (always kinetic or no bonus..). As for long-range weapons - difference is much less, but still - advantage of bigger damage as trade of for delayed damage is no longer exist at capital ships - and that hurts.
So welcome new era - Revelation & Moros (well and Naglfar too, since it get rid off that missile thingie). Phoenixes will be for funny suicidal stuff only...
QFT. I still keep hoping for a honest and reasoned answer to this serious analysis and points ... but it's so drowned in the mom/supercarrier furor, I think it's been lost. Abathur, can you please give some consideration to this, or at least fill us in on what may have been given?
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NedFromAssembly
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.01 10:21:00 -
[559]
This game does not need more AoE **** in it.
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Lady Australia
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Posted - 2010.01.01 10:50:00 -
[560]
Originally by: Arra Lith
stuff about phoenix sucking
back in the pre dominion pos shoot days, the moros/rev would outdps a phoenix on a tower about 3:1 (figures were around 120k damage per minute on a phoenix to 360k on rev/moros.
this doesnt even touch on the fact that citadel missiles are so slow my grandmothers gopher could outrun them, and they can be speed tanked by a carrier (seriously WTF).
Out of interest, how does increasing the velocity of a missile do anything besides make it hit the target faster and make them far more useful? it shouldnt change the dps* (depending on ROF obviously, not explosion velocity/radius/base damage) at all?
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LoveKebab
Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.01.01 13:58:00 -
[561]
Edited by: LoveKebab on 01/01/2010 14:02:13
Originally by: Sunset Rogue
Originally by: LoveKebab
Originally by: Sunset Rogue Could just give fighters and fighterbombers an inherent bomb resist. Maybe 75% role bonus against bombs or something.
im crying inside ...
Crying with tears of joy I see. Because Abathur has already said that FB vulnerability against bombs is a problem.
He also said that FB already have a fair amount of HP, so giving them more is not a very good solution as they would be too hard to kill by conventional methods.
ok let's see: - giving a role bonus to DRONES (not ships) - check - ppl who cant manage their fighters now whining about how fighters and f-bombers gonna suck to AOE bombs - check
seriously how is this any diferent from what's happening now ? ppl r using fighters against smartbombing carriers, they r using it cuz they fail and probably cant even use t2 sentries
the THING with drone oriented ships is that u r supose to watch for ur dps if its not being nuked by anything (even a single ship can destroy a fighter (let's give them a role bonus against everything or better let's make them indestructible...)
if u cant watch for ur drones than ur not supose to use a carrier, it's a simple thing - u see that ur fighters being hit by something u scoop just the one whos being pwned or lock it and try to rr OR u scoop ALL fighters and use sentry drones from a safe distance - ffs u should have at least 50km rep range anyway...
some changes proposed here are as ridiculous as changes proposed to lets say Vindicator cuz the ship is suposed (lol?)to do 1600+dps without overloading...
ECM burst works ok - i wouldnt mind tweaking it a bit by addint like +10-15 to it's strengh but tbh i can live with how it works now
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Natasha Nikolaev
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:12:00 -
[562]
Originally by: LoveKebab
if u cant watch for ur drones than ur not supose to use a carrier, it's a simple thing - u see that ur fighters being hit by something u scoop just the one whos being pwned or lock it and try to rr OR u scoop ALL fighters and use sentry drones from a safe distance - ffs u should have at least 50km rep range anyway...
I hope you're not suggesting that scooping FBs and dropping T2 sentries is a viable alternative for SCs.
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DickeDinger
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:35:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lachender Henker stuff
Because we TOTALLY need new AOE mounted on supercapital hull that can kill BS gang in 20 seconds flat amrite?
Dude, you need to read it again, he described that it is not mounted on the ship. It is also not working for the whole grid just a 10 km radius. What i also like about this that you can actually kill the fighterbombers and take the Supercarriers "aoe" effect of the field. It seams totally different to me then the dd device we used to know pre dominion.
Good idea, i like it !
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:54:00 -
[564]
Originally by: ****eDinger
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lachender Henker stuff
Because we TOTALLY need new AOE mounted on supercapital hull that can kill BS gang in 20 seconds flat amrite?
Dude, you need to read it again, he described that it is not mounted on the ship. It is also not working for the whole grid just a 10 km radius. What i also like about this that you can actually kill the fighterbombers and take the Supercarriers "aoe" effect of the field. It seams totally different to me then the dd device we used to know pre dominion.
Good idea, i like it !
You are pretty dumb even by EVE standards. But ill translate this idea for you: 10km radius (20km sphere) doomsday launch every 20 seconds. With 5 motherships and his idea you would kill 50+ dreads (more or less dependant on how far they bump from each other) in 120 seconds flat.
So dream on - it will never happen.
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DickeDinger
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Posted - 2010.01.01 19:16:00 -
[565]
the 50+ dreads sit still then and do nothing for 2-3 mins, just watching how they get killed...
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ByFstugan
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.01 20:06:00 -
[566]
I still feel what's on the table about SuperCarriers is a rather lame work since the withdraw pre-dominion. The reason for leaving the changes of this ships was that they got no real role and they blured in to much with the Dreads/Carriers. After this U now came back with a change that furfills that failure even more, especially since the Hel got stuck with it's old bonuses. So I wonder:
1) What's the Supercarriers new role that make it stick out from Dreads/Carriers? - I mean the one you found during the silence? Or do you not care about that anymore?
2) Why do you keep the logistics bonus and at the same time remove the triage? - It feels to me as U don't know what to do with the ship. As if U both wanna remain it logistics oriented and at the same time not.
3) Will you change the Hel bonus? - It's rather silly to keep old bonus when you remove the triage, you got to see that? - What about the Fighter Bomber explosion radius that was the last I know of on SiSi pre-Dominion?
4) What's your view on Fighter Bomber survival-ability in massive capital fights as we see in nullsec today? - Will Fighter bombers get some resistans to bombs (smarties as well as stealth bombers bombs)? - Or U got some other solution to this or U not see this as a possible problem for SC-pilots? - Myself would prefere if FB's always orbited the SC's and fired long range torpedos orbiting, would that be impossible - and if so why? It still wouldn't be hard to kill them all with Stealth Bombers bombs. _______________________________
The wise knows what he knows not. |
0nline
Templars of Space
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Posted - 2010.01.01 20:09:00 -
[567]
Edited by: 0nline on 01/01/2010 20:09:16 Edited by: 0nline on 01/01/2010 20:08:59 Well it's been a very long time that the changes have been on the test server but none of the stuff is getting seeded. I guess CCP Nozh has come back from vacation and gone
'Hey CCP Abathur WTF do you think your doing I told you that you're not allowed to make those mothership changes that everyone wants. Now let me get my nerf gun out and screw everything up.'
But seriously guys why can't you allow us to test this stuff these changes look good to me.
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RoCkEt X
Hostile.
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Posted - 2010.01.01 20:40:00 -
[568]
Edited by: RoCkEt X on 01/01/2010 20:40:48 FB's do not need resistance to smartbombs or bombs.
you see a bomb/smarties, you pull your fighters back, its the way it works now, its the way it has always been and its the way it always will be.
fighters now respond instantly, like drones, instead of 1 at a time, this means you can pull them back fast after the bombs are launched. bombs have a 10 second pop time iirc, easily enough for you to get your fighters out of harms way if you're watching.
i'm getting sick of this issue. at base HP (without drone durability) have 20k hp, so with drone durability 5, its a 25% increase, so 25k hp without resists, based on averages, it'd be around 35k ehp. which is enough to survive 5 bombs; i.e. stop complaining.
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Natasha Nikolaev
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:16:00 -
[569]
Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 01/01/2010 21:21:18
Originally by: RoCkEt X
you see a bomb/smarties, you pull your fighters back, its the way it works now, its the way it has always been and its the way it always will be.
pulling fighters/FBs back = zero dps. The reason why this isn't as big of an issue with fighters on carriers is that in larger fights carriers are tasked with logistics, not dps. SCs are the opposite. If SCs have to recall their FBs every time a few smartbombs come into play or a few bombers come out, they aren't worth using in any sizable fight.
Quote: fighters now respond instantly
Except, you know, when it's very laggy, such as in a fleet fight, which is the main place SCs will be used. However it's obviously greatly improved from how it was.
Quote: which is enough to survive 5 bombs
Which, coincidentally, is 1-2 less bombs than are generally launched at one time by bomber gangs.
And even if they only launch 5 (or only five hit), what then? you return them to orbit and spend the next however many minutes locking and repping all 20 FBs while contributing exactly nothing to your fleet? Even when you're all done repping, shield reppers still have zero armor and low structure on their FBs and armor reppers are a bit better off as they have no shield/low structure but at least the shield will rep over time.
I'm not agreeing with the need for smartbomb/bomb resistance "role bonus", just saying you're downplaying the danger of them far too much
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RoCkEt X
Hostile.
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:51:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Natasha Nikolaev Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 01/01/2010 21:32:39
Originally by: RoCkEt X
you see a bomb/smarties, you pull your fighters back, its the way it works now, its the way it has always been and its the way it always will be.
pulling fighters/FBs back = zero dps. The reason why this isn't as big of an issue with fighters on carriers is that in larger fights carriers are tasked with logistics, not dps. SCs are the opposite. If SCs have to recall their FBs every time a few smartbombs come into play or a few bombers come out, they aren't worth using in any sizable fight.
Quote: fighters now respond instantly
Except, you know, when it's very laggy, such as in a fleet fight, which is the main place SCs will be used. However it's obviously greatly improved from how it was.
Quote: which is enough to survive 5 bombs
what then? you return them to orbit and spend the next however many minutes locking and repping all 20 FBs while contributing exactly nothing to your fleet? Even when you're all done repping, shield reppers still have zero armor and low structure on their FBs and armor reppers are a bit better off as they have no shield/low structure but at least the shield will rep over time.
I'm not agreeing with the need for smartbomb/bomb resistance "role bonus", just saying you're downplaying the danger of them far too much
tbh, theres a counter to everything. and smartbombs are the counter to drones.
As for lag, if its laggy, everyone else is F**ked too, whether they're using drones, fighters, guns, missiles or thier nipples for dps, they're still gonna have lag problems.
You're essentially asking for them to remove a perfectly reasonable counter, thus making FB's overpowered. The current patch notes are perfectly fine, however the size of SC dronebay needs increasing.
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