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mastastriker01
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Posted - 2010.01.02 18:49:00 -
[1]
So this is what is happening with the market mechanics. If you choose to buy an item that is marginally more expensive from the market details window, you will be actually buying from the cheapest stock while paying the more expensive price.
Example: All items in same station Paradise Cruises 60,000 units @ 280 isk/unit from seller x 5,000 units @ 282 isk/unit from seller y
I would choose to get the 282 price just because I only need 5,000, or whatever reason does not matter. Buy window opens and choose 5000 units at 282 isk, and you buy. You would expect that order would be fulfilled and disappear.
Wrong. Due to CCP market mechanics, and this according to them This happens 55,000 @ 280 isk/unit from seller x 5,000 @ 282 isk/unit from seller y
You have just purchased 5,000 @ 282 price from the seller that was selling it at 280!! In essence seller x received the isk when you CHOSE to buy from seller y.
Quote from CCP GM Orfeus "Hi, I'm GM Orfeus.
I'm sorry but this is the intended function of the market broker in place in order to match up sell and buy orders.
When you buy something straight from the market your effectively setting up a buy order that is instantly filled with the appropriate sell order by the market broker. The mechanics used to determine the appropriate sell order is by going by the LOWEST price available.
These mechanics are in place to keep the market prices as close to an average as possible. The broker matches any instant buy with the lowest sell order and an instant sell to the highest buy order.
If you wish to sell to specific person for a specific price I recommend using the contract system.
If there are any further questions please don't hesitate to reply to this answer.
Sincerely, GM Orfeus EVE Online Customer Support Team "
In essence there is no choice from who you buy anymore, it will instantly go to the lowest price seller, even if you choose not to!! I found it particularly disturbing when I chose to buy an item that I had placed on market at my own price, my stock remained the same while the lowest seller stock diminished and the isk was going to him, AT MY PRICE!!!
How is this fair market mechanics? wtf, CCP is literally stealing people's isk without no one noticing...
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Esu Nahalas
The Night Corporation
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Posted - 2010.01.02 18:56:00 -
[2]
So, you want to manipulate the market by buying and selling from and to yourself. What could possibly go wrong?
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Companion Qube
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Posted - 2010.01.02 18:57:00 -
[3]
EVE is dying!! OH GOD EVE IS DYING!!
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Erialor Godsent
Gallente Federal Navy Support Divison
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:03:00 -
[4]
Originally by: mastastriker01 In essence there is no choice from who you buy anymore, it will instantly go to the lowest price seller...
Was there ever? This has been the way it worked since I started afaik - nothing new here.... --
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Luca Lure
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:06:00 -
[5]
There is something mysticly happening. CCP is stealing ISK (as if they couldn't just print it.)
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:09:00 -
[6]
FYI - You are not allowed to quote GMs on the forums.
See #9 of the Rules of Conduct in Forum Rules (I looked it up, I don't have them memorized )
Not trying to internet lawyer, just trying to help the OP out.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:10:00 -
[7]
Yes, it is similar to how the securities exchanges (stock markets) work and is intended to prevent direct manipulation of a market.
Instead, as in real life, manipulation requires actions that take advantage of human stupidity fueled by greed and whatever else floats your boat.
If you need an example of one, take a look at the technetium market and the 'Pump and Dump' scheme. Akita & Co. duped at least 70bn isk out of investors (don't worry, these guys get scammed all the time) along with untold billions of isk from other market speculators that ended up in the wallets of people like me who could spot the scam when he first tried to claim that he had 'elite math skillz'.
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mastastriker01
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:15:00 -
[8]
Ok so I quoted CCP, my fault, havent read the forum post rules.
And this is not the fact that I cant even buy from myself, which If its my stock that its on market, no reason why I cant.
My point is that even though I chose to buy at a slightly higher price from seller x, the stock from seller y was the one being sold, at the higher price of seller x.
Seller y was getting the revenue from seller x. That is what is wrong.
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Anson Halleck
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:17:00 -
[9]
Sorry for your loss, but it is working as intended and it was always like this.
When you buy from market, you are setting up a buy order. This buy order matches with available sell orders (cheapest first - you can't choose any particular order) at the price YOU stated in your order.
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Treelox
Amarr Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:20:00 -
[10]
working as intended, this is what is known as a "broker system".
Sig Zone
Signature picture is inappropriate. Please change. ~Weatherman
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Proton Power
Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:23:00 -
[11]
This is the way it was intended, but your wrong on one account atleast based on what I read.
CCP Does not take the extra 2isk (Using your Example).
The person with the 280 sell order actually gets 282 isk instead, more than he has asked for.
---- I would love to see sell orders with person name, corp and alliance so that you can actually create market warfare, but until that happens if ever, this will be the way things go.
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mastastriker01
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:27:00 -
[12]
So what is the point of the market detail windows to show x-numbers of sellers of the same item in the station/system/region?
If all the isk is going to the lowest seller, show only the lowest seller. F*** the other previous competitors as if anyone chooses their slightly higher price it is the current low seller that gets all the orders PLUS the previous asking prices ISK?
Come on, what kind of market mechanics is that?
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Companion Qube
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:28:00 -
[13]
You know, if I'd been ripping myself off for over a year by buying from orders other than the lowest price I wouldn't go bragging about it to the forum.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:31:00 -
[14]
I've been a strong believer in a real incarnation of what CCP call "Free Market" really it's not free market, it's more of a free market with a stipulation that the cheapest items move first. For a start lets assume I'm a broker and someone comes to me saying "Hey I want to buy x item at y price." I find item x at 4% below y price. I have a choice, buy it at what the seller is asking for and keep the remaining 4% for myself, return the 4% to the buyer, return 2% to the buyer so he gets it cheaper and claim a finders fee of 2%.
In EVE, the seller gets that ISK. But CCP tote it as "The broker pays whatever for it." The fact is this "feature" or mechanic IS exploitable and it promotes the 0.01 undercutting. I'm sure if CCP removed this feature you'd still have under cutters but I would bet their constant order updates wouldn't be so active.
They justify this what truly believe is lazy code by saying that it's a mechanic designed to not be used as an exploit, or RMT possibilities. In case the OP doesn't see the RMT possility, imagine this -
RMT Seller says "Place 1 Unit of Trit up on the market for 3B ISK and I'll buy it." Buy places 1 Unit for Trit up for 3B ISK and boom, RMT happened.
The problem with CCP's justification is I would believe this would make RMT even MORE detectable, and they'd actually have a good handle on how much RMT traffic there is because of it. If they added this feature, they would have Market logs showing these transactions, since this would be the easiest way to RMT they could very easily track how much RMT there is going on.
That's to say that the RMT activity even CONSIDER this. Since RMTers are pretty savvy, well apparently. I find it hard to believe that they would even do it this way, some sure, but the good ones, I highly doubt it. Bring in to the fact that if this was allowed and RMT took place, you'd have a awesome player response to place 1 unit of trit in places like Jita or where RMT happens like this for various amounts of ISK. I mean seriously who wouldn't place 1 unit of trit up for billions if there was one up for the same price and this type of RMT was happening? A quick petition once you sell that item saying someone purchased it I believe it's an attempt at RMT, please find out if it's legit, if it's not please remove it from my wallet.
Why CCP don't allow players to really screw around with RMTers in this way is beyond me, but they feel justified in having a POOR excuse for LAZY market code.
I have a good idea about what would make the Market so much more "free" and so much more "Competitive" it would be what I consider HIGHLY advance marketing tactics, bring TRUE PVP to the market. The mechanics and requirements are already in the game, just needs to be linked.
Standing.
Add personal or corporate or alliance standing as options to the sellers.
If a person, corp, or alliance are listed in your standings as "HIGH" they get discounts, and to them when viewing the market they get listed as YOUR price minus any standing discounts you set.
Put it this way, if I placed something on the market and someone undercut me by 0.01 then I add to them to my standings as BAD and charge a surplus. I then relist for everyone else cheaper then they are. However when that undercutter looks at the market they see they are still the cheapest because I'm charging them a surplus. They have no reason to update their order to be cheaper because they see they still are the cheapest.
Now all this can be solved for them by using an alt that doesn't sell anything. So there is a way to get around the mechanic, but what there is NO WAY for them to get around is good standing discounts.
EG - I place Trit on the market for 2.75, I give my good standing clients a 2% discount so for them they see it at 2.7. The under cutter sees it as 2.75, but all my good clients see it as 2.7. So they buy from me.
Single handedly STOP undercutting overnight and introduce real PVP to the market. That's what I'd like.
Amarr for Life |
Angelzin
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:41:00 -
[15]
Don't worry. CCP did not stole your ISK. Seller X got paid 282 isk for those 5000 units you bought.
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Jasdemi
Caldari United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Companion Qube EVE is dying!! OH GOD EVE IS DYING!!
UNOES!! Let's open more QQ threads or else it WILL DIE! OMGZ
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Anson Halleck
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: SencneS
I have a terrible idea about what would make the Market so much more "free" and so much more "Competitive" it would be what I consider HIGHLY advance marketing tactics, bring TRUE PVP to the market. The mechanics and requirements are already in the game, just needs to be linked.
Fixed.
Sorry, but broker based market that shows different price to everyone sounds more like a chaos than usable feature. Besides, what is wrong with undercutting anyway?
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mastastriker01
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:48:00 -
[18]
I will make an amendment,
CCP isn't stealing isk for themselves.
CCP lazy coding and failed "broker" market mechanics is allowing the lowest seller to 'steal' isk from the previous low price sellers.
@ All the trolling, If you don't care, don't reply.
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Don Pellegrino
Helljumpers Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.01.02 19:53:00 -
[19]
I love it when people want to buy their own stuff and just end up giving me more money for my item.
No, CCP isn't stealing the isk, it's the cheapest seller at the station that gets it. My best last month: 400M for a damage control
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Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.01.02 20:13:00 -
[20]
I have no problem with the order going to the player with the lowest/highest sell/buy price. The problem I do have is that it should go to that player AT THEIR price, NOT the price entered. A good broker system would do this. |
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Leveraged Equity
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Posted - 2010.01.02 20:15:00 -
[21]
OMG |
WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:17:00 -
[22]
what do you mean "no choice from who you buy anymore"
anymore? It was always like this apparently the only person who didn't know was you. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Anson Halleck Sorry, but broker based market that shows different price to everyone sounds more like a chaos than usable feature.
hahahah Poor poor man.. That's the point!
At the moment everyone knows EXACTLY which order will get purchased from first and which order will get filled first.
Making it so if you don't like a particular alliance or whatever you can jack up the price for them ONLY, while the alliance you DO like gets them cheaper.
Imagine my system out in 0.0 space. Imagine the HAVOC you could play on alliances buy, listing items in their outposts MUCH higher for them then for everyone else... Or better yet imagine Alliance owned outposts with reasonable prices for your alliance or corporation but for everyone else the price is 500% higher.
The idea for this fills a lot of requests, requests that constantly get asked by players to have CCP "FIX". The added Chaos standing effected orders would have on the market would make the market truly free, and free in a way that would make it not so predictable. I would also bet it would increase margins on all items.
It's sad you feel a very predictable market with little to no combat or tactics is better then anything else. I can only believe that YOU are an 0.01 under cutter and a system that would make it more unpredictable and more dynamic would take away from your profits, to that I would say "Adapt or Die" but the system is not in place. And will probably never get to that stage because WHINERS and CCP's laziness to fix a flawed system are too great...
Amarr for Life |
Adehlea
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: mastastriker01 I will make an amendment,
CCP isn't stealing isk for themselves.
CCP lazy coding and failed "broker" market mechanics is allowing the lowest seller to 'steal' isk from the previous low price sellers.
@ All the trolling, If you don't care, don't reply.
I doubt its lazy coding - if anything writing code to take the offered price and then go searching for everything that is better than that is more coding than simply buying what was clicked on!
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:28:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tippia on 02/01/2010 22:32:12
Originally by: mastastriker01 CCP lazy coding and failed "broker" market mechanics is allowing the lowest seller to 'steal' isk from the previous low price sellers.
How is it lazy coding to emulate a 100% efficient market? What the current system ensures is that the seller manages to sell at at least the rice he wants; the buyer manages to buy at at most the price he wants. Everyone's happy! ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2010.01.02 22:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Angelzin Don't worry. CCP did not stole your ISK.
Ok, they can shut down 2010 now as far as I am concerned. This thread is the winner
ROFL! ----------------------------------------
Buy / sell Jidsale shares here |
Hippopotamus Rex
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Posted - 2010.01.02 23:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SencneS
Making it so if you don't like a particular alliance or whatever you can jack up the price for them ONLY, while the alliance you DO like gets them cheaper.
Imagine my system out in 0.0 space. Imagine the HAVOC you could play on alliances buy, listing items in their outposts MUCH higher for them then for everyone else... Or better yet imagine Alliance owned outposts with reasonable prices for your alliance or corporation but for everyone else the price is 500% higher.
I suspect your hypothetical market doesn't exist because of a free market, rather than because of a lack of one. You could set up such a market if you wanted. But I assume people would prefer the existing one. And if it were reversed, and CCP had implemented the one you describe, someone would be free to set up a similar one that we have now. Perhaps no one would use that one, but I suspect that people would use the current market when they wanted the lowest price and your system when they wanted to hurt competitors/enemies - and I think the current market would win out.
Just a guess though.
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Anson Halleck
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.01.02 23:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Anson Halleck Sorry, but broker based market that shows different price to everyone sounds more like a chaos than usable feature.
hahahah Poor poor man.. That's the point!
At the moment everyone knows EXACTLY which order will get purchased from first and which order will get filled first.
Making it so if you don't like a particular alliance or whatever you can jack up the price for them ONLY, while the alliance you DO like gets them cheaper.
Imagine my system out in 0.0 space. Imagine the HAVOC you could play on alliances buy, listing items in their outposts MUCH higher for them then for everyone else... Or better yet imagine Alliance owned outposts with reasonable prices for your alliance or corporation but for everyone else the price is 500% higher.
The idea for this fills a lot of requests, requests that constantly get asked by players to have CCP "FIX". The added Chaos standing effected orders would have on the market would make the market truly free, and free in a way that would make it not so predictable. I would also bet it would increase margins on all items.
It's sad you feel a very predictable market with little to no combat or tactics is better then anything else. I can only believe that YOU are an 0.01 under cutter and a system that would make it more unpredictable and more dynamic would take away from your profits, to that I would say "Adapt or Die" but the system is not in place. And will probably never get to that stage because WHINERS and CCP's laziness to fix a flawed system are too great...
Your idea is more suitable for contact system IMHO. There it makes sense, but not on market. How is it more competitive, if no one knows what they are competing against? Market should be transparent, not a guessing game.
BTW you speak about whining and not being able to adapt, but to me it seems it is you who is whining and not being able to adapt.
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Rolk Anderson
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Posted - 2010.01.02 23:24:00 -
[29]
CCCP is simply redistributing wealth.
In this case it redistributes wealth from stupid people (I.e. you) to lucky people (That jammy sod who sold his stuff).
COMMUNISM
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Taram Caldar
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.02 23:32:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 02/01/2010 23:32:46 It is the way it is to prevent market manipulation from being super easy. It's still possible even how it is now but it's much harder and takes a LOT more funding than most people are willing to commit to do it. Suck it up and deal with it. If it worked the way you wanted to the market would quickly go to hell in a handbasket.
Want a sig made? Contact me in game. Click my sig to see samples |
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