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Neyko Turama
Minmatar Black Arrows
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Posted - 2010.01.03 12:59:00 -
[1]
Linkage
Text paste from above linked Page
"How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated?
* The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you wonĘt have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane)."
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I'd like to know if there is an advantage in nongrouping to the grouping of turrets. Can someone confirm that, as stated in the quote above, hit dyce is rolled seperatly, even if the weapons are grouped? Because the satement above only says "ABC", it doesn't says "ABC, because....*shows proof*" Any mathematical formuals would be great
Would be cool if you could help me out, thx,
neyko |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:13:00 -
[2]
imo the advantage of not grouping is you can shoot multiple targets.
as for actual performance, no idea. but the very few missions I've ran with group/non-group has had pretty similar stats as to average damage.
Secure 3rd party service |
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Lork Niffle
Gallente External Hard Drive
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:14:00 -
[3]
Grouped turrets and non-grouped offer the same DPS. The tracking calculation and falloff is calculated once, that value is then taken and used each time for each turret to calculate damage. In other words it uses the same relative velocity and distance values to calculate each turrets damage. This reduces radial velocity calculations without reducing damage. ------------------------------------- The system issues man. |
Max Manlove
Swashbucklers
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:24:00 -
[4]
I've never seen a group of turrets score a wrecking hit. I tend to keep mine ungrouped due to that.
Please someone prove me wrong on this. ♥♥♥ Protecting Your Right To Love Thy Neighbor ♥♥♥ |
Bagrista
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Max Manlove I've never seen a group of turrets score a wrecking hit. I tend to keep mine ungrouped due to that.
Please someone prove me wrong on this.
They still can do a wrecking hit, you just don't see it, because the readout is "your group of xxx hits yyy for zzz". It is possible that 1 or 2 turrets score a wrecking hit and the others don't, the message stays the same, you just see a slightly bigger number. Grouping has no effect on this. This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Xiozor
Hydro Chronic
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:36:00 -
[6]
The only time non-missiles (which don't really have variables in the same way turrets do, at least not with any % outcomes) should be grouped is in high-lag scenarios. If you want to be lazy then really you should just group in to groups of 2 which is what I do for convinience.
This is especially true for Artillery sniping in to falloff. You get a more average damage per shot rather than wasting a whole volley.
e.g. I shoot at a target that isn't 100% to hit, let's say 50% accuracy. If it were to be near my tracking in speed or in to my falloff, if I have 7 turrets firing, every time I fire a group of 7, there is a 50% chance I will do nothing, and a 50% chance I will do everything. If I am shooting with 7 seperate turrets, 3/4 will hit most times.
While you could argue that mathematically 1 would hit then the other would miss, we are all aware of sods law, and not hitting someone at all for 3 volleys in a row is not acceptable, and while you are just as likely to hit 3 times in a row it is better to have the garuntee of 'some' damage rather than an all or nothing. ----------------------------------------------- Mr.Kippling just launched a nuclear holocaust at third world countries! ... But he does make exceedingly good cakes. |
Yakumo Smith
Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:39:00 -
[7]
An advantage of non grouped turrets is when you are one shoting weaker targets. (or finishing off a target)
If you only need the damage of 1 gun to finish off an enemy, firing a group of 8 means you'll kill the enemy and have to wait a full cycle before firing again. Ungrouped, you can finish off the target and then start immediately into the next one.
I must admit I still group weapons, but I tend to have at least 2 groups of guns.
I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2010.01.03 13:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Xiozor
e.g. I shoot at a target that isn't 100% to hit, let's say 50% accuracy. If it were to be near my tracking in speed or in to my falloff, if I have 7 turrets firing, every time I fire a group of 7, there is a 50% chance I will do nothing, and a 50% chance I will do everything. If I am shooting with 7 seperate turrets, 3/4 will hit most times.
Bollox, this is just misinformation coupled with a bad understanding of statistics.
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Pipecock Jackxon
Gallente Pirates of Dark Water
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Posted - 2010.01.03 14:25:00 -
[9]
Grouping guns wont affect the dps/tracking/range or anything of that, its just so you don't have to press f1-f8 to fire.. its just like a shortcut. I usually dont Group my torps tho, but thats cause i like the multiple boom effect =)
(Yes i made that sig) |
Taedrin
Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2010.01.03 14:30:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Taedrin on 03/01/2010 14:34:25
Originally by: Bagrista
Originally by: Max Manlove I've never seen a group of turrets score a wrecking hit. I tend to keep mine ungrouped due to that.
Please someone prove me wrong on this.
They still can do a wrecking hit, you just don't see it, because the readout is "your group of xxx hits yyy for zzz". It is possible that 1 or 2 turrets score a wrecking hit and the others don't, the message stays the same, you just see a slightly bigger number. Grouping has no effect on this.
QFT - you don't see OMG damage with grouped weapons because only a few of your turrets will get wrecking hits in a single volley (if any at all). It is still possible that each weapon in the weapon group could get a wrecking hit, but the chances of that happening are slim to none.
EDIT: another thing about tracking - tracking calculations are not simply hit or miss. It is the tracking calculation which determines how hard you hit. If you use ungrouped guns, you will notice the combat log uses words like "barely hits", "glances" and "wrecking hit". If you are fighting in fall off or fighting near your weapons tracking speed, you will see more "barely hits" and "glances" messages than normal and "wrecking" hits. If you are fighting at optimal and the target is moving slowly, then you will see less "barely hits" and "glances" messages. If the target and you are not moving AT ALL, then you have 100% chance to hit, IIRC. ---------- There is always a choice. The choice might not be easy, nor simple, nor the options be what you desire - but, nevertheless, the choice is there to be made. |
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Dracoknight
Strategic Syndicate Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2010.01.03 14:34:00 -
[11]
There is no difference, the game calculate every gun even grouped, and then the log only shows the total damage done by that group.
The only difference is that you shoot every gun at once which can vary to ungrouped since they dont shoot at the same time so they hit a target at a different speed, Angle and even signature radius
But i prefer to group my guns so i dont miss the dps by pressing F1-F8 ( slow at keyboard ) ____________________
I wish my Thorax could use missiles... |
superteds
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Posted - 2010.01.03 15:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xiozor The only time non-missiles (which don't really have variables in the same way turrets do, at least not with any % outcomes) should be grouped is in high-lag scenarios. If you want to be lazy then really you should just group in to groups of 2 which is what I do for convinience.
This is especially true for Artillery sniping in to falloff. You get a more average damage per shot rather than wasting a whole volley.
e.g. I shoot at a target that isn't 100% to hit, let's say 50% accuracy. If it were to be near my tracking in speed or in to my falloff, if I have 7 turrets firing, every time I fire a group of 7, there is a 50% chance I will do nothing, and a 50% chance I will do everything. If I am shooting with 7 seperate turrets, 3/4 will hit most times.
While you could argue that mathematically 1 would hit then the other would miss, we are all aware of sods law, and not hitting someone at all for 3 volleys in a row is not acceptable, and while you are just as likely to hit 3 times in a row it is better to have the garuntee of 'some' damage rather than an all or nothing.
In high lag you ungroup and set auto-repeat off tbh, so your guns don't hang up all the time.
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.03 15:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Xiozor The only time non-missiles (which don't really have variables in the same way turrets do, at least not with any % outcomes) should be grouped is in high-lag scenarios. If you want to be lazy then really you should just group in to groups of 2 which is what I do for convinience.
This is especially true for Artillery sniping in to falloff. You get a more average damage per shot rather than wasting a whole volley.
e.g. I shoot at a target that isn't 100% to hit, let's say 50% accuracy. If it were to be near my tracking in speed or in to my falloff, if I have 7 turrets firing, every time I fire a group of 7, there is a 50% chance I will do nothing, and a 50% chance I will do everything. If I am shooting with 7 seperate turrets, 3/4 will hit most times.
While you could argue that mathematically 1 would hit then the other would miss, we are all aware of sods law, and not hitting someone at all for 3 volleys in a row is not acceptable, and while you are just as likely to hit 3 times in a row it is better to have the garuntee of 'some' damage rather than an all or nothing.
You haven't said a single correct thing. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2010.01.03 16:20:00 -
[14]
large engagements rely on ungrouped weapons - so if they got stuck [i.e. cycling red for hours, until you warp], it won't be _all_ of them.
alas, dreads are more likely to be used in such environments - putting the gist back into logistics |
Daan Sai
OHiTech
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Posted - 2010.01.03 23:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider large engagements rely on ungrouped weapons...
Which is ironic considering that grouping was intended to help fight lag in large engagements, lol!
--------------------------------- Internet Submarines is Serious Business ---------------------------------
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Marz Ghola
Minmatar Killed In Action
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Posted - 2010.01.03 23:14:00 -
[16]
I group for pvp, damage right up front and immediate is important for small gang. Also makes changing ammo types easier on the fly.
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Armoured C
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.01.03 23:20:00 -
[17]
i usually have my lazors grouped into 2 or 3 groups so if i need to change crystals i can still lay down fire while changing crystals with other lazors
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Garmr NachtTeufel
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Posted - 2010.01.03 23:20:00 -
[18]
I group for convenience, no other reason really.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2010.01.03 23:30:00 -
[19]
Grouping has potentially worse on-paper performance (cannot split fire, overshooting, bugs propagate to affect whole group) but is much more comfortable for user - which can lead to better preformance. It is up to you to identify the bottlenecks.
"Real men play badminton, deep diving is for pussies." PvP 13373P33K unscrambled
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Wesfahrn
WESCORP 2.0
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Posted - 2010.01.04 02:12:00 -
[20]
So a 3rd party macro program is much better due to its flexibility. |
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.01.04 03:10:00 -
[21]
Some people can minimize wasted dps in missions by not grouping. I suppose if they had a grouped macro also this would be viable but more bother than i care to mess with.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.04 03:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Neyko Turama I'd like to know if there is an advantage in nongrouping to the grouping of turrets. Can someone confirm that, as stated in the quote above, hit dyce is rolled seperatly, even if the weapons are grouped?
I can say for certain that the dice are NOW rolled seperatly, or atleast that the net effect is the same.
This was not always the case. When grouped turrets were first released, I tested and confirmed that grouping turrets would increase effective damage output in any case where chance to hit was less than 100%.
According to the bug report that I filed on the issue, this was fixed with the release of "TEX 1.0.2" (sorry, I forget what the public name was for TEX). I have since rerun my tests and confirmed that damage appears identical from grouped and ungrouped turrets.
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