Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Legacy
Beacon Institute and Industrial
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 21:58:00 -
[1]
Really simple, if someone steals your wrecks you should be able to pop them. Can't say the countless times I have someone in a frig show up where I'm doing missions to try to start stealing my salvage and there is nothing I can do about it.
|
JitaPriceChecker2
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 22:09:00 -
[2]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 05/01/2010 22:10:28 Seriously ,posting topics regarding "stealing salvage" should be a bannable offense.
He cant steal what aint yours.
|
Legacy
Beacon Institute and Industrial
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 22:17:00 -
[3]
it's npc mission salvage, it's just as much mine as what's in the containers, which will give you kill rights, what's the difference...none, go troll elsewhere.
|
Asurymen
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 22:26:00 -
[4]
"They Stole My Salvage" tears are the best tears.
Except perhaps for goon tears.
|
Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 22:40:00 -
[5]
Here's the Ironfleet copy/paste compilation of CCP responses on the topic.
-------
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
|
Vheri Kai'or
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 01:34:00 -
[6]
lordmagnus is the best magnus.
ergo; not supported. it has been stated a thousand tiems a thousand times that wrecks belong to no one.
even if they did, they would technically belong to the pirate faction that the ship once belonged to, and therefor they are still fair game.
|
Comodore John
Gallente KILRATHI INDUSTRIES
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 03:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus Here's the Ironfleet copy/paste compilation of CCP responses on the topic.
-------
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Beat me to it...
Not supported. Why do you want to report yourself as an ISK spammer? If you are one, just stop spamming already! |
darius mclever
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 03:58:00 -
[8]
-1/10 for the troll attempt.
(not supported of course)
|
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 04:08:00 -
[9]
First of all kill rights is a different mechanic from being aggroed towards someone. If you steal their loot you don't get kill rights, so why on earth would you get kill rights for salvaging wrecks (the whole idea of which implies it belong to anyone anyways).
Second of all if it did cause them to be aggressed towards you (which is what I think you are asking for... I hope) it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I ninja salvage occasionally, if I see loot I want I take it. Meaning I'm busy sitting there agressed, salvaging and looting away, and most of the time I'm ignored, or they blow wrecks, or get scared and fly away. It's great fun.
The best is when they refit to PvP and I fly back in a phoon and they warp off again... -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
|
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 04:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Legacy Really simple, if someone steals your wrecks you should be able to pop them. Can't say the countless times I have someone in a frig show up where I'm doing missions to try to start stealing my salvage and there is nothing I can do about it.
I cannot support this. Assigning kill rights for theft is a bit over the top. However, if it was a proposal for flagging the salvage thief, that would be another matter.
Side note: CCP controls the mechanics of the game and they decide what is to be allowed in the game. This does not mean they have license to make unitlateral value judgements on what is wrong and what is right. Members of the CCP staff can say it's not stealing all they want. It does not change the fact that it is stealing. There are a number of potential reasons for CCP to argue that ninja salvaging is not stealing and none of them have anything to do with the definition of theft save within the confines of their game mechanics. In other words it is stealing, but it is stealing that CCP currently chooses to allow.
Windjammer
P.S. The OP is in error when he says there is nothing he can do. If nothing else he can have fun blowing up the wrecks.
|
|
Xiao LoPan
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 07:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Windjammer
Side note: CCP controls the mechanics of the game and they decide what is to be allowed in the game. This does not mean they have license to make unitlateral value judgements on what is wrong and what is right. Members of the CCP staff can say it's not stealing all they want. It does not change the fact that it is stealing. There are a number of potential reasons for CCP to argue that ninja salvaging is not stealing and none of them have anything to do with the definition of theft save within the confines of their game mechanics. In other words it is stealing, but it is stealing that CCP currently chooses to allow.
Windjammer
P.S. The OP is in error when he says there is nothing he can do. If nothing else he can have fun blowing up the wrecks.
CCP made no value judgment, the rightness or wrongness wasn't remarked on, legality was, right and wrong are no where close to legal and illegal.
what CCP is really doing for the mission runners that cant deal with ninja salvagers is allowing them to keep their ships. as soon as high sec mission runners can attack "ninja salvagers" we all know what would actually happen.
|
Insa Rexion
CTRL-Q
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 08:02:00 -
[12]
Supported
I'm sick of these greedy little w***ers whining about this deasd horse over and over like they don't already make more isk than their risk level deserves.
Give them what they want, let them lose their ships to ppl who actually know how to fly and let the flood of tears commence --------------------------------------------
well mannered ****ole |
Seth Ruin
Minmatar Ominous Corp Cult of War
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 08:04:00 -
[13]
You realize you can't get the salvage without specialized equipment? That's the crux of the issue. That's why salvaging is a mini-profession as much as mining, hacking, and archeology. You can run a radar site and kill all the rats, but that doesn't mean the contents of the hacking can is yours by any kind of right.
The contents in the rat wreck itself is yours because regardless of your fitting, if you killed that rat, you can get that loot. There's no exceptions. All you need is space in your cargo hold.
And you're going to complain about ninja-miners who are stealing the asteroids in your missions too, right?
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 08:33:00 -
[14]
Quote: as soon as high sec mission runners can attack "ninja salvagers" we all know what would actually happen.
For this reason alone, supported!
|
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 09:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Xiao LoPan CCP made no value judgment, the rightness or wrongness wasn't remarked on, legality was, right and wrong are no where close to legal and illegal.
The terms "theft" and "stealing" are not exclusive to the realm of law, though law often attempts to define them in a contractual fashion. When someone steals from another, we identify it by whether the action in question was wrong or right. The legal system strives to either emulate right or wrong or seeks to circumvent right and wrong. Thus the concept of theft cannot be left to definitions made by law. In other words it is quite possible to steal even though the law will not punish it as such.
So when CCP staff say ninja salvaging is not stealing they are making a value judgment. It would be more accurate of them to say it is not illegal in EVE and so no law has been broken. That would be a comment on law rather than the one they do make which is comment on value as well as law.
Originally by: Xiao LoPan what CCP is really doing for the mission runners that cant deal with ninja salvagers is allowing them to keep their ships. as soon as high sec mission runners can attack "ninja salvagers" we all know what would actually happen.
If you believe this to be true, you should support the OP's idea, though I still think he phrased it incorrectly when he said kill rights. I'm pretty sure he meant flagging similar to loot theft.
Finally, you don't know what would happen. What would happen is one of the reasons CCP does not want to flag ninja salvagers and why most ninja salvagers don't want to be flagged.
Windjammer
|
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 09:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Seth Ruin The contents in the rat wreck itself is yours because regardless of your fitting, if you killed that rat, you can get that loot. There's no exceptions. All you need is space in your cargo hold.
And what if you didn't have enough room in your ship? What if you had to go back to station to get another ship with sufficient cargo space? Not yours because you didn't have the cargo hold capacity?
This also ignores mission ships that do have salvage equipment on them while doing a mission. These guys are ninja salvaged all the time because they can't get to the wreck they created before a ninja pops in and steals it.
Originally by: Seth Ruin And you're going to complain about ninja-miners who are stealing the asteroids in your missions too, right?
Yes. Though that is a less common phenomena because of the time it takes to suck up the rock and the relatively low value of most rock found in missions. The asteroids are literally created by the action of the mission runner. And, of course, the term ninja miner most often refers to an entirely different type of activity
Windjammer
|
Seth Ruin
Minmatar Ominous Corp Cult of War
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 11:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Seth Ruin The contents in the rat wreck itself is yours because regardless of your fitting, if you killed that rat, you can get that loot. There's no exceptions. All you need is space in your cargo hold.
And what if you didn't have enough room in your ship? What if you had to go back to station to get another ship with sufficient cargo space? Not yours because you didn't have the cargo hold capacity?
The cargohold capacity is not keeping you from looting. It's simply keeping you from looting the entire mission at once. Again, you don't need a special module to loot wrecks. I can loot a wreck just as easily with no modules fitted whatsoever. You can not, however, salvage with a "naked" ship. This is because salvaging requires a tool that not everyone has. Once salvaging is built-in (like the ship's onboard scanner, for example), then we can argue about salvage "belonging" to you.
Originally by: Windjammer This also ignores mission ships that do have salvage equipment on them while doing a mission. These guys are ninja salvaged all the time because they can't get to the wreck they created before a ninja pops in and steals it.
It doesn't ignore them at all. They are free to salvage, just as I am free to warp to a belt and mine. That doesn't mean if I'm the first in the belt it belongs to me, however. Hell, even if I scan out a grav site, the asteroids don't belong to me any more than they belong to the next guy who warps in.
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Seth Ruin And you're going to complain about ninja-miners who are stealing the asteroids in your missions too, right?
Yes. Though that is a less common phenomena because of the time it takes to suck up the rock and the relatively low value of most rock found in missions. The asteroids are literally created by the action of the mission runner. And, of course, the term ninja miner most often refers to an entirely different type of activity
It's certainly an interesting point-of-view, but it is fairly obvious CCP doesn't agree with your "right" to anything in the mission. Activating "your" mission gate is not a criminal act. Killing "your" mission rats is not a criminal act. Mining "your" mission asteroids is not a criminal act. This is not by accident. This is a design decision made by CCP devs long, long ago; otherwise, missions would be instanced and none of this would be an issue.
|
Kirila
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services Primary.
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 12:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Kirila on 06/01/2010 12:48:32
Originally by: steave435
Quote: as soon as high sec mission runners can attack "ninja salvagers" we all know what would actually happen.
For this reason alone, supported!
^^^ this!!! HAHAHAHA let us be flagged
|
Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 12:51:00 -
[19]
oh look, it's THIS topic again for then F-ing bajillionth time.
Salvaging is a mini profession
CCP likes it that way
it's not going away
GIVE UP.
|
Ogogov
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 14:43:00 -
[20]
just pop the wrecks. Wastes their time as much as yours.
What I am more concerned about is when you DO get kill rights, others in your fleet don't have aggression and this is becoming a problem because a PvE fit ship has absolutely no way of successfully engaging a PvP fit ship - not only that but now you can't even get a buddy to help out and chase them off? Ridiculous.
Perhaps its a badly thought out attempt at tweaking the aggression rules to try to get people to move out of high sec missioning hubs and into low sec, which again other than the occasional one-sided engagement with a BC gate camp is pretty much devoid of any activity whatsoever.
|
|
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:43:00 -
[21]
Hell with it, drop salvage altogether. No more salvage for anyone.
It's like a pack of damned kids all *****ing about who got the biggest piece of cake. Screw it, no cake for any of you. --Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperium Technologies
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:08:00 -
[22]
Get rid of concord protecting ninja-salvagers sitting in noobcorps and being invulnerable. Let's promote more pew-pew.
|
EdvensoR
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:25:00 -
[23]
not supported
|
Awesome Possum
Imperium Signal Corps
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Windjammer It does not change the fact that it is stealing. In other words it is stealing, but it is stealing that CCP currently chooses to allow.
You're right, it is stealing (in a way).
Unfortunately for the OP and mission runners, it is stealing from the wreckage owner. In the case of mission runners, that would be Serpentis, etc.
So no, the salvagers should not be flagged toward the MR in any way shape or form for salvaging a ship.
OTOH, they shouldn't really be flagged toward the MR for looting from the wrecks either.. just as in PVP, the wreckage loot belongs to the owner of the ship. ♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 19:02:00 -
[25]
If you are not making enough ISK running missions why don't you try ninja salvaging? CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Seth Ruin The cargohold capacity is not keeping you from looting. It's simply keeping you from looting the entire mission at once. Again, you don't need a special module to loot wrecks. I can loot a wreck just as easily with no modules fitted whatsoever. You can not, however, salvage with a "naked" ship. This is because salvaging requires a tool that not everyone has. Once salvaging is built-in (like the ship's onboard scanner, for example), then we can argue about salvage "belonging" to you.
Your argument is selective and ignores what makes the loot the "property" of the mission runner. In your argument a module, the salvage module, is what makes the loot the property of one person or the other. This ignores the module which made the wreck in the first place. Turret, launcher or both.
If salvaging capability were built into the ships rather than requiring a module you'd still argue in the same fashion. Basing your argument on a module or lack thereof is futile.
Originally by: Seth Ruin They are free to salvage, just as I am free to warp to a belt and mine. That doesn't mean if I'm the first in the belt it belongs to me, however. Hell, even if I scan out a grav site, the asteroids don't belong to me any more than they belong to the next guy who warps in.
Getting to a belt first or scanning a site is not what created the site or the belt. These things are created through no action of any player and because of that no single player has any claim to them. The exception to this is what's going on in 0.0 because of the Dominion release, but that is an entirely different section of the game with its own unique dynamics.
Mission NPC's are created by the action of the mission runner. He goes to an agent, requests a mission and accepts it. Further, the mission runner creates the wrecks by shooting the NPC's in just the same way he/she creates the loot in the wreck by that action. This is the basis for the claim of ownership. Not who got to the loot or salvage first.
Originally by: Seth Ruin It's certainly an interesting point-of-view, but it is fairly obvious CCP doesn't agree with your "right" to anything in the mission. Activating "your" mission gate is not a criminal act. Killing "your" mission rats is not a criminal act. Mining "your" mission asteroids is not a criminal act. This is not by accident. This is a design decision made by CCP devs long, long ago; otherwise, missions would be instanced and none of this would be an issue.
This is simply restating and agreeing with what I've already said in post 10 of this thread. Thank you for agreeing with me? Again, stealing the salvage is not a criminal act, but that does not mean it isn't stealing. It simply means there is no "law" prohibiting the act.
There was a time when killing an NPC did not generate a wreck, only a loot can. And there was a time when stealing from that loot can was not a flagged offense. CCP has a long history of devs changing what they've made decisions on "long, long ago".
Regardless of what is flagged or not flagged and even what Concord responds to and what they do not respond to there is one thing everyone should be able to agree upon. Missions will never be a private little dungeon or as you say, "instanced". That would take too much interaction out of the game and CCP's overall design philosophy is interaction.
If stealing salvage were flagged in the same way that stealing loot is, things would be much more interesting for mission runners and for ninja salvagers. I really do not believe that CCP will do this in the foreseeable future. They see ninja salvaging as a mini profession. In other words a beginners profession. By its very nature it is for those new to the game because it allows the beginner to gain income from something they can do with very little training. Flagging the theft would expose these beginners to getting their little rumps shot off. That would discourage beginners and CCP wants to acquire beginners. More money in CCP's pocket that way.
Windjammer
|
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Helicity Boson oh look, it's THIS topic again for then F-ing bajillionth time.
Salvaging is a mini profession
CCP likes it that way
it's not going away
GIVE UP.
I would have thought someone like you would be very much in favor of flagging. Gives you more opportunity to bait people into attacking you.
|
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Windjammer It does not change the fact that it is stealing. In other words it is stealing, but it is stealing that CCP currently chooses to allow.
You're right, it is stealing (in a way).
Unfortunately for the OP and mission runners, it is stealing from the wreckage owner. In the case of mission runners, that would be Serpentis, etc.
So no, the salvagers should not be flagged toward the MR in any way shape or form for salvaging a ship.
OTOH, they shouldn't really be flagged toward the MR for looting from the wrecks either.. just as in PVP, the wreckage loot belongs to the owner of the ship.
By your line of reasoning the loot in the NPC wreckage should not be flagged either as it too belongs to the NPC, Serpentis in your example. If that came to pass, ninja stealing would become even more profitable, the volume of bear tears would increase and missions would be nerfed. Perhaps this is something you should advocate.
|
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: EdwardNardella If you are not making enough ISK running missions why don't you try ninja salvaging?
Because a good mission runner has enough of his own wrecks to salvage, they're easier to find and he/she isn't a thief when they salvage them. It may surprise you that some care about that last part, but it is still true.
Windjammer
|
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 23:52:00 -
[30]
I don't think four posts in a row is enough, try again. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |