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Nuthyn
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Posted - 2010.01.06 11:27:00 -
[1]
I realize there are many variables and I am not sure how to ask thisà.
When you set up your ship before running a level 4, you do a bit of recon and check mission reports, swap out what damage you are going to be most effective with, and you put in the rat specific hardeners.
What % do you shoot for? Is 70% enough? Do you try to get in the 80s for primary damage??? (Ex- Angels are mostly explosive, so double up here) The variables (what ship, what raceà.) in this are staggering to say the least (ItÆs what make EVE so great!!!). I will most likely be running a BS with an XL shield or 2 armor reps. DonÆt know if that helps or hurts???
I know that some rats are heavy on certain damage types and I see many fits that are ô4 modulesö in resist.
Anyone ever come up with a list of ô4 hardenersö they use for each rat??? Also, if I wanted more gank, any ô3 hardenerö rat specific lists???
Thanks in advance for helping this nooblet.
P.S. I have looked on many sites and did do some of my own research, but I am looking for some big knowledge from some of the pros here.
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Battleduck
Caldari Auctoritas Fleet
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Posted - 2010.01.06 11:31:00 -
[2]
Depends on you ship and how you want to fly it, for my CNR I fit one invulnerability field, and two mission specific hardeners, XL booster and a shield boost amp. There is one mission that deals a lot of different kinds of damage though, can't remember the name, and on that mission it's just 2x invuls and one hardener against the most heavy damage type (I think that is explosive)
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.06 11:46:00 -
[3]
The resist percentages in and of themselves tell you nothing, so there is no simple answer for what counts as "enough."
The resists have to be considered in combination with the tanking method you're using, since that's how they're going to be applied in-game. If you somehow have an absolutely staggering repair rate, the resists don't need to be all that high because the sheer amount of HP you get back will get the job done on its own. On the other hand, if you're looking at a slow repair rate – perhaps you're using an undersized booster/repper – you want the resists to be as high as possible to make that small amount of raw HP represent a large amount of effective HP.
So what you want to look for isn't the resists – it's the repair rate modified by the resists (in other words, your Effective HP regen). Neither one of those two factors tell you anything without taking the other into account.
It's also worth noting that, due to how the resists work, the interpretation of those percentages is… if not entirely opaque, then at least unintuitive. It's not a linear scale and small or large differences do not necessarily translate into small and large changes in effective HP respectively. For instance, changing a resist from 0 to 50% means you take half as much damage. Changing a resist from 50% to 75% also means you take half as much damage. Changing a resist from 40% to 50% makes very little difference, whereas changing it from 80% to 90% make a huge difference. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2010.01.06 12:13:00 -
[4]
I always fit four Shield Hardeners to my Golem. I use eve-survival as a guide as to which ones to fit. I fit two of the main damage type and two of the secondary damage type. I don't look at the actual percentages as I know it is enough. I can solo every level four mission, usually without moving from the warp in point.
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Coyote Moon
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Posted - 2010.01.06 13:34:00 -
[5]
I do not know what to say. Maybe I have a blog with what you want! Visit my blog! http://shadow117.com/evegirlblogclick me to visit!!!
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Ivorian
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Posted - 2010.01.06 14:01:00 -
[6]
Its more a mix of both. The resist and the repair.
For example: I use a Nighthawk with a passive shield regen of 87 and 95% kinetic and 93% thermal resist against guristas. That means, that this ship can easy tank 1200DPS on thermal. More than enough for level 4 missions.
On the other side you can as well use a ship with a active shield booster (perma running) that gives 300 regen/sec and 75% resist in thermal and kinetic. This one can tank as well 1200DPS.
Or the other way around, get your resist to 99%, and a shield regen of 12 is already enough to tank the same 1200DPS.
As you can see, its a mix of both. Resist alone is not all, the kind and way of regen depend as well.
Best would be a mix of both. 300 regen/sec and 99% resist in all
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2010.01.06 14:53:00 -
[7]
A tank rated between 800-1200 to race specific damage is usually enough to complete most L4s depending on your DPS yield. Does not really matter where the tank rating comes from, that's just the way it is.
You can of course complete some L4s with much less tank paired with excessive DPS, but general rule of thumb is 800-1200 for L4s, 300-600 for L3s, +50 for L2s, and L1s it's just kind of circumstantial depending on gate restrictions and mission type.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Ceti Lomax
Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz' aar K'in
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Posted - 2010.01.06 19:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ceti Lomax on 06/01/2010 19:58:27
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 06/01/2010 14:56:59 A tank rated between 800-1200 to race specific damage is usually enough to complete most L4s depending on your DPS yield. Does not really matter where the tank rating comes from, that's just the way it is.
You can of course complete some L4s with much less tank paired with excessive DPS, but general rule of thumb is 800-1200 for L4s, 300-600 for L3s, +50 for L2s, and L1s it's just kind of circumstantial depending on gate restrictions and mission type.
You must in almost any ship fit race specific tank for L4s (except drone missions obviously). You can fit a uniform tank for ALL L3s if you fly a battleship, command ship, or marauder. You can fit a uniform tank for ALL L2s if you fly a cruiser or larger. You can fit a simple buffer tank for ALL L1s paired with a DCII and/or small repper/booster if all you can fly is a frigate.
In my opinion, 800-1200 DPS defense is overkill for LVL 4 missions. My Drake omni-tanks 350 DPS, and I can pretty much sleep-walk through any lvl 4 mission, as long as I'm a bit carefull to maintain a reasonable 30-75 km engagement distance from the rat horde.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.01.06 20:52:00 -
[9]
Personally I throw the above advice in the trash mostly.
Level 4's about agro management. If you manage your agro then you dont get that much incoming dps at any time. Is many experienced players who after years of playing still havn't learnt the basics of agro management so feel one has to over tank or over gank to make up for this lack.
If you manage your agro you generally get away with 1 LAR (or shield equiv) and some hardening. If I run an abaddon I run 1 plain LAR II, plus 2 omni resist modules (faction energized adaptives) and this is plenty for most lvl 4 missions and I'm using modulated pulse lasers - ie T1 gear. I used to run a faction large armor repairer as it repairs more, ie tanks more (plus didn't have T2 skills at the time). But really its not needed. Advantage of the faction gear is low reqs and good results of T2 or better - but at an isk cost.
I've made a new char and run most lvl 4's with 14 days training. That was: - drone interfacing 4 - sentry drones 3 - drone rigging - LAR - battleship 2
This had up to 297 dps on the domi, plus almost 300dps tank with 1 LAR. More tank and more gank does make it easier. Most lvl 4 battleships have very low tanks of < 100 dps. There are a few exceptions like some harder guristas seam to have huge sheild regen comparitively with some closer to 250 dps tank. I mission in amarr space with close on 60 different lvl 4 missions from my agent of which 1 is serps, 2 guristas, 2 with angels - almost all of the rest are em/therm weak which is ideal for amarr lasers.
Agro mangement is good to learn. Some experinced players never learn it.
can agro by: - shooting group - shooting another group within range (longer shots, longer agro) - drone shooting another group within range. - drone proximity - proximity (lowest range which many haven't discovered yet) - events (damage/destroy ship/structureetc)
If the eve guide says shoot group xxx and will agro group zzz - mostly you can manage this agro and just get 1 group to agro if your willing to take a little more time. For a new player with a softer ship, taking a bit more time a good thing to do. Learn to manage your agro and it will make you a better mission runner than many experienced players. More tank, more gank makes missioning easier. But when experienced players say wait till have T2 weapons before lvl 4 missions - it suggests their mission running skills are terrible.
Learn to remove the scram npc's first, always carry a flight of light drones which can remove scrams. If make a mistake, be prepared to warp out. Choice between run lower level missions vs lvl 4's with a low skilled ship? The level 4's should return much better isk so getting into them as quickly as possible is an advantage.
Ae4 bonus room can swamp a low skilled ship so initially avoid the bonus room. Blockade 4 with bloods the tanking with a low skilled char is not a worry, but the cap drain is. I've had over 8000 cap drained in this mission in under 20 secs! You can run the mission and have no trouble, or you can run it and have extreme cap drain which is plenty to get an active tank killed. You can still remove the scram frigates with drones (or turrets at range) and you may need to warp out if trouble leaving the drones behind if not enough time to pull them in. Active turrets using cap plus no cap also = no dps. Even a low skilled char can take this mission in bites by warping out. ea5/5 has timed spawns so low skilled can be swamped. EA 1-5 are factional missions so If dont want to reduce your empire standings can avoid it.
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Sprilk
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Posted - 2010.01.06 23:07:00 -
[10]
Your question is very loaded...
Your needed tank is directly related to how fast you kill.
IF you can kill them faster then they kill you then you have a good enough tank, i use a 300-400dps tank depending on the mission and thats enough for the most part with good agro manamgnet and a **** load of dps from me.
this question is hard to awsner because it also comes down to what kind of ship you use as well.. its a trial and error thing for your playstyle, skill, knowlage, ship, and damge you put out. anyone giving you a hard number has no idea what they are talking about
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.01.07 01:02:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 07/01/2010 01:02:56 First, Google up the EFT dmg profile for each NPC. It will help you when deciding of what/how many hardeners to use.
That said, just keep in mind EFT numbers may not fully reflect certain nuances when you come to practical applications, so interpret its results as a guide, not a bible.
4-slot shied tank Sansha/Blood - 2 EM, 2 TH Serpentis/EOM - 2 KI, 2 TH Angels/Rogue Drones - 2 INV, 1 EX, 1 EX/KI* Guristas - 2 KI, 1 TH, 1 KI/INV* Mercs - 2 INV, 1 KI, 1 TH
*(optimal max)/(more rounded)
From here on, you can derive yourself a 3-slot shield tank and equivalent armor tanks.
P.S SBA usage in Angel/Drone/Mercs configs may reflect higher EFT numbers, but as I've mentioned before, it's not a bible. This does not apply to armor tanks however, as the SBA mod is unique to shield tankers only.
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Nuthyn
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Posted - 2010.01.07 01:36:00 -
[12]
Thank you everyone!!!
I am jammed at work.
Will try to respond soon.
You guys are awesome!!!
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Yan v'Nomb
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Posted - 2010.01.07 13:41:00 -
[13]
Im a bit surprised by everybody over tanking, especially the Golems.
I you're an armor tanker you gimp your dps a lot if you over tank by trading more tank for a damage mod. As a shield tanker you gimp your damage less but still you could have put a target painter where the hardener is.
Apoc with 2 larsII 3/2 heat sinks and n-type hardeners sansha/blood : 1 therm 1 em (on the blockade an extra therm) eom : 1 kin 1 therm mercenaries : 1 kin 1 therm 1 exp angels : 1 exp 1 ean 1 dc guristas/serpentis : 1 kin 1 therm drones : 1 kin 1 therm 1 exp It varies between missions somewhat like cargo delivery against serpentis when i kill everything I put in another thermal hardener.
With the apoc i can run the the second lar for quite a long time but its not cap stable.
Its a matter of testing out what works on a specific mission. Just put in enough tank and if a mission is easily tankable make a note of it and next time kick out a hardener and put in something usefull.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.01.08 03:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Yan v'Nomb Im a bit surprised by everybody over tanking, especially the Golems.
Most posts on the forums will be people overtanking. To be honest, if you are new to L4s and your skills lack, it isn't a bad idea to start off heavy on the tank side, and swap tank mods for dps mods as you learn your limits.
Personally, I have very little tank on my CNR. EFT shows 109 sustained and 417 when my booster is active. Some people will say that isn't enough tank, but the last time I had to warp out of a mission was in my first week of running L4s.
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Nuthyn
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Posted - 2010.01.08 11:02:00 -
[15]
I am not new to Lvl 4s.....
I have not done one yet.
I did gang with someone last year - totally different.
I am trying to go a bit heavy on the tank until I am a bit more familiar with managing the aggro, so I am looking for some - more tank, less gank.
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Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2010.01.08 11:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer [...]over gank to make up for this lack.
How can you overgank in a mission?
Other than that, if you do it right and ganktank, your resistances are a lot more important than your basic rep rate (seeing how they affect your effective rep rate anyway), since you will be soaking damage into your 'buffer' and only run the repper when it is really neccessary. This is why more hardeners/damage control are better mods than SBAs or a second repper imho. Numbers can be deceiving, but as a rough ballpark figure aiming for 85% primary / 75% secondary on a single repper setup is sensible for most missions. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Nuthyn
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Posted - 2010.01.09 23:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Other than that, if you do it right and ganktank, your resistances are a lot more important than your basic rep rate (seeing how they affect your effective rep rate anyway), since you will be soaking damage into your 'buffer' and only run the repper when it is really neccessary. This is why more hardeners/damage control are better mods than SBAs or a second repper imho. Numbers can be deceiving, but as a rough ballpark figure aiming for 85% primary / 75% secondary on a single repper setup is sensible for most missions.
Thank you for the response and itÆs exactly what I am looking for.
Quite frankly, I donÆt have the ôcommitment abilityö to run Lvl 4s just yet. I have been researching certain areas of running them and have taking away some great data.
Cap is life.
Too much tank and not enough gank can still get you killed.
Control the aggro (Spelling???).
Know your triggers, damage type you will receive, and damage type to deal.
Never fly anything you are not fully prepared to lose.
However, I am looking for a permatank. I know what you all are saying, but here is whyà
1 - I get disconnects. 2 - I only get to play infrequently, after the kiddies go to bed. Sometimes they get up and I have to walk away from the computer.
Doing Lvl 3s, the above are a non-issue. Lvl 4s are a bit different.
What I am hoping to do is run both my accounts at the same time. I have quite a few Battleships and am going to attempt a Lvl 4 in the near future.
I am planning on running a Hyperion and a Maelstrom (I have decided these are the ships I am willing to lose). Both fits are going to be cap-stable and no faction, fully tech 2 except for the guns (Still tech 1). The Hyperion is going to be the main tank and the Maelstrom is going to be fitted with 1200s and a bit more gank.
I have some ideas, but any suggestions would be great.
Also, I am going to be running two accounts at once, so I would like to avoid cap batteries.
Oh, and I saw some guy post a picture of how a DCU2 saved his 3 billion ISK ship. I always put them on my mission runners.
Thanx again for your replies.
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Lekegolo Khanid
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Posted - 2010.01.10 04:29:00 -
[18]
If you have two toons then RR or ST (Remote repair or shield transfer), my CEO did it all the time with a Domi and a phoon. Recently he switched to Onerios and tempest which he says works better.
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Nuthyn
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Posted - 2010.01.10 17:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lekegolo Khanid If you have two toons then RR or ST (Remote repair or shield transfer), my CEO did it all the time with a Domi and a phoon. Recently he switched to Onerios and tempest which he says works better.
I had always heard that using repair drones was a bad idea. You should use your drones to do damage, so you are reducing the amount of damage you are taking by actually killing stuff faster???
Also, would I be better off running a Domi (instead of the Hype) and a Mael??? The Hype toon has limited Gunnery skills.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.01.10 18:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer [...]over gank to make up for this lack.
How can you overgank in a mission?
I consider recommending waiting till have the skills for T2 weaps as overgank - is a lot of experienced player recommend this.
Much better to run a low skilled char on lvl 4's making good isk than to run lower lvl missions making less isk till have higher skills.
As I said, more tank/gank makes mission runing easier, but you can run lvl 4's with much, much less. In Amarr space where I mission in which most ships are em/therm weak, the npc's have low tank of generally less than 100 dps - ie once had agro you could afk with some small drones like hobs and even with only about 120 dps they will chew everything. The 14 day char with sentries doing up to 297 dps chews most lvl 4's quite easily so while light on dps its not that light.
If looking at a 2x LAR setup, yes it can work. Can also run a better tank by removing the 2x LAR and going passive shield tank as the passive shield tank can tank more dps if pick a reasonable battleship. Take like of the faction Apoc or Mega, even the new faction domi - they all have good passive tanks. Yes they were nerfed in the last update so are mere shadows of their former tanking abilities. But even vs EM/Therm they can still tank up around 1400 dps which is more than 2x LAR's worth. You can even afford to pull some of the tank to run weap upgrades for more dps (I have run 2 of this last year - drops em/therm tank to ~1000 dps). I used this passive tanked setup lots on my navy apoc when I had dc problems and had lost 2x abaddons from almost dc's due to not being able to kill any ships from the lag. With the lag the ship showed like no armor damage and next it was in the hull and then popped. Since then ccp improved something so I've not really had a problem with lag/dc's since about Oct 08. But the navy Apoc gave me a good tank that could take lag/dc's much better than an active tanked ship. I lost a few drones where the ship lagged/warped out thinking had a dc but had no actual dc - but I stopped loosing ships. I trained some min artillery as passive tanking kills the cap. Apoc has no damage bonus so lost no damage so not a bad compromise. Now I only use the navy apoc where can have high cap drain - like blockade 4 with bloods or storylines with non em/therm weak npc's.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.10 19:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar How can you overgank in a mission?
Unless you want to savor the experience of shooting at mindless database entries, you can't.
Gank > Tank, if you have good skills.
It took me a while to figure out why I loathed doing missions so much--it was because I was overtanking and had crappy DPS and thus missions took about an hour or more each. By the time I finished each mission, I was almost ready to shoot myself and was swearing never to do another mission again. Now I still wouldn't call them fun, but they're tolerable.
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Gathoni
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Posted - 2010.01.11 08:37:00 -
[22]
Advice from another dual box Daddy who plays after the kid goes to sleep and gets disconnected.
Warp out when the kids/wife call you. You can usually do it in 2-5 seconds and then your tank is not an issue. If you must, log off. It will usually save your ship and the hot key is faster that warping out.
Use the Domi instead of the Hyperion. It fights better without you (disconnect or family issue) and is much cheaper to lose.
Don't accept the mission until the kids have been asleep for at least 10 minutes. Make sure they are really asleep!
Pay your isurance. The macho guys tell you not to, but they are wrong
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Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2010.01.11 19:36:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 11/01/2010 19:39:29
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer I consider recommending waiting till have the skills for T2 weaps as overgank - is a lot of experienced player recommend this.
I would call that idiocy, not overgank :D
Personally I had officer guns on my mission ship before I could even use T2 guns, from cash earned running missions with best named/faction before, not RMT crap.
If you know what you are doing and go with the ganktank from the get go (which of course is not possible with a crappy connection or family likely to interrupt) and always use the best tool for the job (I trained all four races up simultaneously for the most part so never had to do such counterproductive things like running AE in a Laserboat) you can rake in quite some cash even with mediorce skills. I never really felt a need to train T2 guns until it was required for PvP actually. I had all battleships at lvl4 before I even thought of getting one of the large guns to 5.
And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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chainsaw Destroyer
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Posted - 2010.01.18 08:50:00 -
[24]
Well, all the guys above are right on a lot of points, but on to your question, go with highest possible "%" you can can fit or use. If you have to use hardeners for certain dmg type thats is fine, and easy enough to do. I would go with a active tank (passive can work very well too . But with a active shield tank you will get the highest dmg possible. Also for the booster go with biggest one you can fit, and have enough power to run it a short while. I mainly go with cap booster's, because they do the most for your cap, and take up the fewest slots. once you get most of those tanking skillz you'll fly through lvl 4's quite quickly.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.18 09:02:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Im a bit surprised by everybody over tanking, especially the Golems.
Maybe they don't want to immediately lose 2-3B of fitting (and the ship is not a gift either) it if they crash / lose connection once a month.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kagan Storm
Caldari Ghost Armadillo Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.18 11:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Im a bit surprised by everybody over tanking, especially the Golems.
Maybe they don't want to immediately lose 2-3B of fitting (and the ship is not a gift either) it if they crash / lose connection once a month.
Unless you are warpscrames... you will fly away automaticly....
If you dc and die you can petition.
99% of people don't get the rush from doing %#%953258952968'286820438024902' damage to a rat with a perfect hit... but just want to afk farm.
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