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Mograph
Caldari Doth IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.07 09:32:00 -
[1]
I was thinking about this and....
I'm in a fast frig orbiting something stationary, say i'm in a Rail Raptor. if i am orbiting it at 20km at about 4k a second.
My guns shouldnt need to track very much as they will alwyas be either pointed to the left of me or the right of me. Is this how the tracking system works in eve?
(you know how the ac-10 Gunships work in real life right? they fly in a circle above a position and the guns dont need to track very much and they kill the enemy in massive infa red balls of fire!!!)
Nub question really, just want it clarifying how the tracking vs transversal / angular velocity all works in relation to my tracking speed and the Orbiting situation. and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing. |
Florio
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.01.07 09:53:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Florio on 07/01/2010 09:55:31 Edited by: Florio on 07/01/2010 09:54:24 My understanding is that you are correct. Think of two spheres attached by a piece of string with one stationary and the other in orbit. The orbiting sphere maintains the same position relative to the string (the guns have less tracking to do as they point along the line of the string).
In addition, the stationary sphere does not maintain the same position relative to the string ('the string gets wound round the sphere'): in this instance the stationary sphere's guns would have to move 'with the string' and therefore have to move to track the orbitting target.
If the stationary sphere starts to orbit the target it can reduce its relative movement and therefore the tracking requirement decreases. We can therefore see that the faster orbiter has less tracking to do.
edit/ and just to be clear yeh I'm pretty sure this is indeed how tracking in eve works.
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Mograph
Caldari Doth IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.07 10:07:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Florio Edited by: Florio on 07/01/2010 09:55:31 Edited by: Florio on 07/01/2010 09:54:24 My understanding is that you are correct. Think of two spheres attached by a piece of string with one stationary and the other in orbit. The orbiting sphere maintains the same position relative to the string (the guns have less tracking to do as they point along the line of the string).
In addition, the stationary sphere does not maintain the same position relative to the string ('the string gets wound round the sphere'): in this instance the stationary sphere's guns would have to move 'with the string' and therefore have to move to track the orbitting target.
If the stationary sphere starts to orbit the target it can reduce its relative movement and therefore the tracking requirement decreases. We can therefore see that the faster orbiter has less tracking to do.
edit/ and just to be clear yeh I'm pretty sure this is indeed how tracking in eve works.
Thanks for that, i was reading about it on some other threads and nowhere mentioned about orbiting, they all assumed that ships were traveling along a vector that didnt deviate. and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing. |
Brentum Kaltarr
Elemental Foundries
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Posted - 2010.01.07 12:07:00 -
[4]
'Fraid not. In practice, your orbiting speed becomes an addition to your angular velocity.
You're not wrong that it shouldn't be but presumably Eve just calculating the angular velocity of the two spheres orbiting, without any rotation of the spheres themselves factored into the mix.
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Cattegirn
Rampant SR
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Posted - 2010.01.07 12:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mograph I was thinking about this and....
I'm in a fast frig orbiting something stationary, say i'm in a Rail Raptor. if i am orbiting it at 20km at about 4k a second.
My guns shouldnt need to track very much as they will alwyas be either pointed to the left of me or the right of me. Is this how the tracking system works in eve?
(you know how the ac-10 Gunships work in real life right? they fly in a circle above a position and the guns dont need to track very much and they kill the enemy in massive infa red balls of fire!!!)
Nub question really, just want it clarifying how the tracking vs transversal / angular velocity all works in relation to my tracking speed and the Orbiting situation.
You're right as far as reasoning goes, but that's not how Eve works. The guns track based on the angular velocity and that's that. Strategy articles, PVP training |
Florio
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.01.07 13:43:00 -
[6]
ah well, looks like i stand corrected. :)
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Mograph
Caldari Doth IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:34:00 -
[7]
Oh right. I always wondered why you often miss when orbiting same sized ship faster when in a real life situation your guns would not have to track much as your orbit would keep them in 2line of sight if they were stationary.
How much maths would be involved in to change the turrets to a more realistic model? (I dont mean 3d Object I mean the mathamatical model)
If it were changed i guess it would break lots ships that have tracking bonuses etc. Just train them gunnery skills then.
Cheers guys and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing. |
Simvastatin Montelukast
Qui dormit non peccat
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:52:00 -
[8]
Well, technically you would be correct in assuming that one object circling a stationary object would not have to track much where you would be wrong is not factoring in your own velocity and how it affects a projectile.
If you fire a projectile, while moving at speed (even if at a stationary object) you would have to factor in the sideways momentum. Hence the angular momentum being factored in.
Although I don't know that it does for a fact, I wonder why you would actually have to factor this in for lazor weapons as even at 4k, it would have no affect on light (or the speed at which lazers travel).
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Cattegirn
Rampant SR
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Posted - 2010.01.07 20:48:00 -
[9]
I'm not even sure this is a technical limitation or cpu load issue. I think it might be a gameplay decision. Strategy articles, PVP training |
Arpad Elo
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Posted - 2010.01.11 00:28:00 -
[10]
think of your ship as being a mathematical point instead of a ship.
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Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2010.01.13 23:49:00 -
[11]
I've done a lot a destroyer theory to practical application work:
To do it without the pen and paper stuff, go into your overview settings and turn on your angular velocity bracket.
Right click your guns in space and show your actual tracking on your guns.
Your angular velocity (in the braket) must be equal to or less than the tracking speed of your guns to get full damage (assuming that signature radius of guns in less than the signature radius of the ship your shooting.)
At approximately +50% of angular above tracking speed you go down to about 1/2-1/3 of your maximum damage output, at 75% you don't do any more damage. Add in a signature diference bonuse by % up to your guns max damage and you have the rough equations needed to figure it out.
With small guns, if you can get your guns tracking up to about .2, you will be able to hit cepters doing their kamakazi orbiting at at 5 k (.3 angular) without a problem. Medium guns need to get their tracking closer to .36 or higher if you want to hit a .3 frig. against cruisers with small guns you can get your angular up to almost 2.7 and still be able to hit with a tracking of .2.
Just figure out what your hunting with and against and work up a build from there. Webbers and painters negate the need for quick tracking guns or tracking computers.
On cruiser sized equipment, try to figure out how to get tracking to at least .1 and load a webber, youll be be able to fend fairly well on your own with webber support.
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2010.01.14 17:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon Your angular velocity (in the braket) must be equal to or less than the tracking speed of your guns to get full damage (assuming that signature radius of guns in less than the signature radius of the ship your shooting.)
Patrice speaks the truth. The target's relative angular velocity is the best variable for comparing to your guns' tracking speed (both are given in radian values). The greater the difference, the better the damage output (assuming optimal range). As angular approaches zero, you'll start to see more and more "well aimed" and "excellent" hits.
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Saietor Blackgreen
Crimson Star Empire Symbiogenesis
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Posted - 2010.01.15 08:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon Your angular velocity (in the braket) must be equal to or less than the tracking speed of your guns to get full damage (assuming that signature radius of guns in less than the signature radius of the ship your shooting.)
Patrice speaks the truth. The target's relative angular velocity is the best variable for comparing to your guns' tracking speed (both are given in radian values). The greater the difference, the better the damage output (assuming optimal range). As angular approaches zero, you'll start to see more and more "well aimed" and "excellent" hits.
There is a mistake here. If your angular velocity = guns tracking, you will have about 50% hit chance (same as atoptimal+faloff), and about 40% effective DPS (additional reduction of DPS due to hit quality drop).
You have 100% theoretical DPS on target only if target is at optimal or closer, and angular velocity = 0.
So, to get to a flatter portion of the curve, you need angular velocity to be around 1/4 of your tracking or less.
Of course this all is true if target sig = gun resolution. Otherwise you need to factor in the signature factor. You can search for tracking formula if you like, or just use the simulator in the guide or DPS graphs in EFT.
--- EvE online. New game every 6 months. |
Mograph
Caldari Doth IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.15 13:10:00 -
[14]
thanks for all the info, its all a bit beyond me so I think i will continue to either use missiles. or orbit at 500m with blasters ab scram and web and go afk hoping they die before I do.
it s really interesting how all these random factors affect how much damage guns do. and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing. |
Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2010.01.15 16:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon Your angular velocity (in the braket) must be equal to or less than the tracking speed of your guns to get full damage (assuming that signature radius of guns in less than the signature radius of the ship your shooting.)
Patrice speaks the truth. The target's relative angular velocity is the best variable for comparing to your guns' tracking speed (both are given in radian values). The greater the difference, the better the damage output (assuming optimal range). As angular approaches zero, you'll start to see more and more "well aimed" and "excellent" hits.
There is a mistake here. If your angular velocity = guns tracking, you will have about 50% hit chance (same as atoptimal+faloff), and about 40% effective DPS (additional reduction of DPS due to hit quality drop).
You have 100% theoretical DPS on target only if target is at optimal or closer, and angular velocity = 0.
So, to get to a flatter portion of the curve, you need angular velocity to be around 1/4 of your tracking or less.
Of course this all is true if target sig = gun resolution. Otherwise you need to factor in the signature factor. You can search for tracking formula if you like, or just use the simulator in the guide or DPS graphs in EFT.
Ty for that clarification. As an addendum, I've noticed that to have a high chance to hit targets one step down in size (i.e. BS shooting a cruiser, or cruiser shooting a frig), angular needs to be around 1/10 of tracking. That's not a rule, but it's what has worked in my experience flying a Rokh.
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.15 16:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus I've noticed that to have a high chance to hit targets one step down in size (i.e. BS shooting a cruiser, or cruiser shooting a frig), angular needs to be around 1/10 of tracking. That's not a rule, but it's what has worked in my experience flying a Rokh.
The size difference between classes is only 1:3. The size difference between battleship and frigate is 1:10.
To deal 90% damage against the same size ship (ie cruiser hitting cruiser) you need angular velocity to be about 1/3rd of your turrets tracking. It is likely the combination of this and the differnce in size that leads to your observations that to have a high chance to hit (90% DPS) targets one step down you would need angular to be around 1/10 of tracking.
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2010.01.15 17:10:00 -
[17]
Cool, that makes a lot more sense now. Hadn't looked at it that way.
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Saietor Blackgreen
Crimson Star Empire Symbiogenesis
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Posted - 2010.01.15 17:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus I've noticed that to have a high chance to hit targets one step down in size (i.e. BS shooting a cruiser, or cruiser shooting a frig), angular needs to be around 1/10 of tracking. That's not a rule, but it's what has worked in my experience flying a Rokh.
The size difference between classes is only 1:3. The size difference between battleship and frigate is 1:10.
To deal 90% damage against the same size ship (ie cruiser hitting cruiser) you need angular velocity to be about 1/3rd of your turrets tracking. It is likely the combination of this and the differnce in size that leads to your observations that to have a high chance to hit (90% DPS) targets one step down you would need angular to be around 1/10 of tracking.
Hugo is actually very close to mathematical answer. Difference in sigs between sizes in 1/3, but in tracking formula signature factor is a SQUARE of sig, so resulting tracking boost/penalty from shooting a target 1 size bigger/smaller than your guns is a factor of 9.
Hugo, you are one perceptive guy :)
--- EvE online. New game every 6 months. |
Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.15 17:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ki Tarra on 15/01/2010 17:46:16
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Hugo is actually very close to mathematical answer. Difference in sigs between sizes in 1/3, but in tracking formula signature factor is a SQUARE of sig, so resulting tracking boost/penalty from shooting a target 1 size bigger/smaller than your guns is a factor of 9.
Sorry, but no.
While the tracking formula does include a square of sig, it also includes a square of angular velocity. The effects cancel each other out.
A cruiser size gun will hit a frigate that is moving at ~1/3 x tracking (actually 40/125 to be exact) the same as it would hit a cruiser moving at 1 x tracking.
For a battleship (400m) to have a high chance to hit (90% DPS) a frigate (40m), the frigate would need to have a angular velocity of 1/30th (1/10 due to sig radius * 1/3 to get 90% DPS) of the battleship's tracking, not 1/100th (1/10 ^ 2).
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2010.01.15 23:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ki Tarra Edited by: Ki Tarra on 15/01/2010 17:46:16
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Hugo is actually very close to mathematical answer. Difference in sigs between sizes in 1/3, but in tracking formula signature factor is a SQUARE of sig, so resulting tracking boost/penalty from shooting a target 1 size bigger/smaller than your guns is a factor of 9.
Sorry, but no.
While the tracking formula does include a square of sig, it also includes a square of angular velocity. The effects cancel each other out.
A cruiser size gun will hit a frigate that is moving at ~1/3 x tracking (actually 40/125 to be exact) the same as it would hit a cruiser moving at 1 x tracking.
For a battleship (400m) to have a high chance to hit (90% DPS) a frigate (40m), the frigate would need to have a angular velocity of 1/30th (1/10 due to sig radius * 1/3 to get 90% DPS) of the battleship's tracking, not 1/100th (1/10 ^ 2).
Actually, we're all off by a bit. I got OCD about this and ran a simulation using the chance-to-hit formula to calculate a battleship-sized turret shooting at a frigate.
For the simulation, I kept the following constant:
Turret sig res: 400m (battleship) Target sig radius: 40m Optimal range: 100km Tracking: 0.001 Transversal velocity: 10m/s
Notes: The selected transversal is very slow, but I chose this in order to give a slower decline in chance to hit as angular velocity increases with a decreasing range. Also, angular velocity can be calculated: transversal / range.
Keeping these constants and changing range from 100km to 0km, we can see how angular velocity gives us a good indicator on chance to hit. The numbers are rounded; R = range, av = angular velocity.
R: 100km, av: 0.0001, chance to hit: 97% R: 50km, av: 0.0002, chance to hit: 90% R: 35km, av: 0.00029, chance to hit: 80% R: 28km, av: 0.00036, chance to hit: 70% R: 20km, av: 0.0005, chance to hit: 50% R: 10km, av: 0.001, chance to hit: 6%
So, when angular velocity is 0.0001, or 1/10 of tracking for this simulation, there's a 97% chance to hit the frigate. At 0.0002, or 1/5, you have approximately 90% chance to hit. From 20km, the drop-off becomes very rapid as the distance closes and angular rises.
Note, I did not do any calculations for damage; this is chance-to-hit only.
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.15 23:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Turret sig res: 400m (battleship) Target sig radius: 40m Optimal range: 100km Tracking: 0.001 Transversal velocity: 10m/s
R: 100km, AV: 0.0001: ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((10/(100,000 * 0.001))*(400 / 40))^2) = 0.5 ^ (1 ^ 2) = 0.5 = 50% R: 50km, AV: 0.0005: ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((10/(50,000 * 0.001))*(400 / 40))^2) = 0.5 ^ (2 ^ 2) = 0.0625 = 6.25%
I don't know where you went wrong on your math. Your angular velocities look right, but when I drop the numbers into the tracking formula I get different results than what you posted for chance to hit.
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2010.01.16 01:03:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Hugo Lordmagnus on 16/01/2010 01:03:49
Originally by: Ki Tarra I don't know where you went wrong on your math. Your angular velocities look right, but when I drop the numbers into the tracking formula I get different results than what you posted for chance to hit.
Found it: in the program, I'd been running several different scenarios and had left the turret tracking speed at .005--instead of .001--before running the sim I posted.
/facepalm
Alright, I reset it with everything the same except for transversal, which I reduced to 3.5m/s in order to get a near-90% chance value within 100km. Here's the new--hopefully corrected--raw data:
r: 14000 tv: 3.5 av: 0.00025 Chance to hit: 0.013139006488339289 r: 20000 tv: 3.5 av: 0.000175 Chance to hit: 0.11970041008732171 r: 25000 tv: 3.5 av: 0.00014 Chance to hit: 0.2570284566640167 r: 28000 tv: 3.5 av: 0.000125 Chance to hit: 0.33856388673422316 r: 35000 tv: 3.5 av: 0.0001 Chance to hit: 0.5 r: 90000 tv: 3.5 av: 0.00003888888888888889 Chance to hit: 0.9004795589019837
So 90% happens roughly around 0.000039 angular velocity. With a tracking of 0.001, that's 3.9% -- very close to your original estimate of 1/30 (or 3.333..%).
Good stuff; I think I've learned a world's worth about turrets today
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Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.16 01:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus So 90% happens roughly around 0.000039 angular velocity. With a tracking of 0.001, that's 3.9% -- very close to your original estimate of 1/30 (or 3.333..%).
Factor in the ajustment for hit quality ( Dam=(Phit^2+Phit+0.0499)/2 ) and you will find that it gets even closer: 3.5964%
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.16 02:40:00 -
[24]
Math! My only nemesis!
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Renagaide Tempest
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:04:00 -
[25]
i thought the title of this thread was attacking transexuals.......imagine how confused i was when i started reading it......dang
I'm picturing that ac 10 gunship in the sky circling over those helpless transexuals blasting them to pieces...
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2010.01.16 15:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus So 90% happens roughly around 0.000039 angular velocity. With a tracking of 0.001, that's 3.9% -- very close to your original estimate of 1/30 (or 3.333..%).
Factor in the ajustment for hit quality ( Dam=(Phit^2+Phit+0.0499)/2 ) and you will find that it gets even closer: 3.5964%
Nice! I'm gonna have to look you up for figuring out any future weapon calculations.
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