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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.01.11 16:10:00 -
[31]
Personally i liked a lot MORE the first iteration of T3 in test server. Where the variations on slow layouts and numbers of slots was MUCH larger.
As things are now ccp got several subsystems that have basically 1 single choice when you select another subsystem Y. Just because slot layouts are too tight and for example if you choose a shield tank bonus and a web bonus you MUST select the other modules on the maximum mid slots possible to just have enough for a minimal tank and webs.
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Soliscout
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Posted - 2010.01.11 21:43:00 -
[32]
wtf is protus ?
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.11 23:22:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Soliscout wtf is protus ?
a sex move. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Empire Dweller
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2010.01.11 23:25:00 -
[34]
If everyones going to fall over themselves saying the tengus the greatest- at least point out the ridiculously low amount of effective hit points it has.
Tengus great- for pve. For pvp its nothing special.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.01.11 23:49:00 -
[35]
My Tengu hits 200k+ with tackle gear. I think that's decent.
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.11 23:51:00 -
[36]
140k here (up to 160k overheated) on pure t2 setup (6 midslot layout)... More than most battleships out there and better for RR. I wouldnt say its bad.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.12 06:51:00 -
[37]
Edited by: darius mclever on 12/01/2010 06:53:31 254k EHP on my probing tengu. 320k EHP with overload.
forgot to mention: faction version 326k EHP without overload 445k EHP with overload
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Obsidian Hawk
Free Galactic Enterprises FREGE
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Posted - 2010.01.12 07:16:00 -
[38]
I need to weigh in as i am both a proteus and legion pilot.
A lot of balancing issues I see is when it comes to pve, the proteus has several subsystems that allow you to fit drones while the legion only has 1, giving it a disadvantage to fighting small ships, so you have either sac a high slot to either put on a pulse or a smalle missile launcher to combat that.
Other than that the legion is a great ship. I mean a 50% bonus to optimal range, put in some amarr navy multis and you got one really hard hitting ship. The natural armor tank is great also.
my fitt for pve/pvp
Elec - TTN prop - fuel catalyst - sucker goes fast with a t2 ab def - adaptive augmentor eng - power core multi - gives the hardpoints i need. off - liquid crystal mags.
Summary - the offensive sub should have a 25m drone bay, and the drone reconfiguration should be upped a little bit more to be at least semi on par with a myrmidon or ishtar.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.12 07:42:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk I need to weigh in as i am both a proteus and legion pilot.
A lot of balancing issues I see is when it comes to pve, the proteus has several subsystems that allow you to fit drones while the legion only has 1, giving it a disadvantage to fighting small ships, so you have either sac a high slot to either put on a pulse or a smalle missile launcher to combat that.
Other than that the legion is a great ship. I mean a 50% bonus to optimal range, put in some amarr navy multis and you got one really hard hitting ship. The natural armor tank is great also.
my fitt for pve/pvp
Elec - TTN prop - fuel catalyst - sucker goes fast with a t2 ab def - adaptive augmentor eng - power core multi - gives the hardpoints i need. off - liquid crystal mags.
Summary - the offensive sub should have a 25m drone bay, and the drone reconfiguration should be upped a little bit more to be at least semi on par with a myrmidon or ishtar.
So what are we talking if it was givin another turret hardpoint instead of drone bay like what was suggested earlier in this thread?
DPS wise and stuff.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.12 08:52:00 -
[40]
My proteus has around 800k EHP. That being said I use it primarily as a bait ship and cyno killer.
My legion I use as a sniper hac in fleet engagements and it does a fantastic job, tracking better, shooting farther, hitting harder, and with way more HP than a sniper zealot.
The tengu is a suped up cov ops that can probe like a cov ops and tackle like a drake.
The loki I have setup as a mix of a vagabond and a rapier.
Overall I am fairly happy with t3. If any of them do need a looking at though it's the legion. At the very least I would greatly like to see the nuet range on the parisitic complex extended.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.01.12 10:15:00 -
[41]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources My proteus has around 800k EHP. That being said I use it primarily as a bait ship and cyno killer.
My legion I use as a sniper hac in fleet engagements and it does a fantastic job, tracking better, shooting farther, hitting harder, and with way more HP than a sniper zealot.
The tengu is a suped up cov ops that can probe like a cov ops and tackle like a drake.
The loki I have setup as a mix of a vagabond and a rapier.
Overall I am fairly happy with t3. If any of them do need a looking at though it's the legion. At the very least I would greatly like to see the nuet range on the parisitic complex extended.
problem is exaclty that.. T3 are supposed to cover SEVERAL roles dependign on configuration. While legion and oto elsser extent the loki have only 1 role (not considerign the non probeable gang bonuses ship that is just non predicted gameplay :P )
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.12 10:35:00 -
[42]
The legion needs it subsystems looked at and the loki just needs an extra mid slot or two.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.12 11:51:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 11:53:57
Originally by: Seishi Maru T3 are supposed to cover SEVERAL roles dependign on configuration. While legion and oto elsser extent the loki have only 1 role
tbh, the proteus also really only has 1 role, as an ultra deimos (which it does quite well). The only real variation is whether you go ultra tank (like ed) or ultra gank. The ishtar-ish drone user modules are quite lackluster. I guess the covops is fairly usable too, but the tengu is just so much better at this (as it can stay at range) that I don't even really consider it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Iroko Kamba
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Posted - 2010.01.12 12:33:00 -
[44]
I always thought the Loki has a worse damage output than a Legion?
And Proteus - it does more damage. But only ultra-close-range, which contains always all or nothing situations in pvp.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.12 12:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 11:53:57
Originally by: Seishi Maru T3 are supposed to cover SEVERAL roles dependign on configuration. While legion and oto elsser extent the loki have only 1 role
tbh, the proteus also really only has 1 role, as an ultra deimos (which it does quite well). The only real variation is whether you go ultra tank (like ed) or ultra gank. The ishtar-ish drone user modules are quite lackluster. I guess the covops is fairly usable too, but the tengu is just so much better at this (as it can stay at range) that I don't even really consider it.
Its far better than the tengu if you are using it for tackling something on the edge of shields of a hostile pos or to get the initial tackler as you jump in a gang. Mine is cov ops fit.
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2010.01.12 13:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Finally, an aesthetic change: The "Baby Avatar" subsystem is totally wasted on the crappy probing sub. I recommend switching its model with the dissolution sequencer, because it makes my Legion look like a stupid snowmobile.
Don't you touch the "Baby Avatar" sub, it makes my salvage legion look fantastic.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.12 13:35:00 -
[47]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Its far better than the tengu if you are using it for tackling something on the edge of shields of a hostile pos or to get the initial tackler as you jump in a gang. Mine is cov ops fit.
The first is an extremely specialized use (one which a dual web loki might be better for, anyways) and what does a cov ops cloak have to do with jumping through and getting an initial tackle? Maybe I'm just not understanding you on the second one, this is way too early for me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.12 14:06:00 -
[48]
Scrambler that goes farther than most disruptors, a good faction web, and a cov ops cloak let you dictate engagement range and lets you disengage if it's more than you or your specific group can handle. Also let's not every time you get the initial tackle are you jumping into ****.
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Letifer Deus
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.01.12 14:59:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 14:59:32
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Scrambler that goes farther than most disruptors
I don't think 20km is more than any disruptor.
Quote: and lets you disengage if it's more than you or your specific group can handle.
Assuming that by "disengage" you mean cloak and warp, sure.
Quote: ...let you dictate engagement range..
On a single target, yes up to ~18-20km.
Quote: Also let's not every time you get the initial tackle are you jumping into ****.
ok so you're warping into sh*t. What is a cloak going to do for you here?
I realize now I/we are compeltely derailing this thread so I'm going to stop now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
raukosen
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Posted - 2010.01.12 17:09:00 -
[50]
[Legion, lowsec] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Ammatar Navy Medium Nosferatu Ammatar Navy Medium Nosferatu
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Medium Nanobot Accelerator II
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex Legion Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
Good tank, decent damage
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.12 17:29:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 14:59:32
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Scrambler that goes farther than most disruptors
I don't think 20km is more than any disruptor.
Quote: and lets you disengage if it's more than you or your specific group can handle.
Assuming that by "disengage" you mean cloak and warp, sure.
Quote: ...let you dictate engagement range..
On a single target, yes up to ~18-20km.
Quote: Also let's not every time you get the initial tackle are you jumping into ****.
ok so you're warping into sh*t. What is a cloak going to do for you here?
I realize now I/we are compeltely derailing this thread so I'm going to stop now.
JMmm nice and narrow minded, just the kind of person who should be fitting a ship designed to be flexible and out of the box.
A) Nice to know you don't use heat or gang links. B) Yes I do, being able to cloak is a huge asset C) Yup, thats usually what it is because I play smart you see, if I have 5 people in backup and local goes up by 60 then I know to gtfo so I warp and cloak, not having to cycle safes, I can even warp to a bookmark on grid with the gate to watch from complete safety and give intel at the same time. D) Well sometimes you arent in lowsec so you arent simply warping to belts, but are moving towards things that are scattered around the grid and moving at full speed or warping while cloaked can be a massive asset.
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Kurenin
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.13 00:43:00 -
[52]
Hello sirs.
It has come to my attention that the Legion, in addition to the other, non Caldari strat cruisers, in fact fellates goats.
Unfortunately the Legion is Fellatrix Maximus as it is impossible to do any one task with the ship. It's really really bad.
Set it up with turrets and you've got yourself a crap amount of EHP, poor tracking, poor speed, range that suggests you should be outside of scrambling range, but can't maintain that range (so you may as well go closer, then get eaten alive anyway).
Set it up as a missile ship and you really may as well just go and refine the ship, the range is awful, it is slow, has crap EHP, does poor damage etc.
The drones...
The EWAR thingy is awful too. It's like the stupid EWAR frigate. No one really cares enough that you're draining 1 cap every 20 years, nos / neuts aren't really effective unless you're using BS size ones and this has always been the case.
In addition to this, they also have poor range, meaning you have to go in close and get chewed up.
It's just horrible and I see no reason why you wouldn't just train missiles and get a Tengu instead.
It's better than all the others, at almost any range and any role.
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Obsidian Hawk
Free Galactic Enterprises FREGE
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Posted - 2010.01.13 04:36:00 -
[53]
all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot.
I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.13 08:50:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot.
I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis.
I think an extra turret slot would be more in line instead of all offensive subs getting drones.
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.01.13 10:55:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Seishi Maru Personally i liked a lot MORE the first iteration of T3 in test server. Where the variations on slow layouts and numbers of slots was MUCH larger.
As things are now ccp got several subsystems that have basically 1 single choice when you select another subsystem Y. Just because slot layouts are too tight and for example if you choose a shield tank bonus and a web bonus you MUST select the other modules on the maximum mid slots possible to just have enough for a minimal tank and webs.
Sadly this is the core of the problem. When T3 was on sisi originally there was huge variation, now as other have already said, you're locked into 5-10 practical configurations with the ships. This ultimately defeats the point of having customisable ships. That is of course, before the inferiority of the ewar subs is taken into account.
Then there's the issue of layout themselves. The legion, in any config without the offensive sub, is all mid slots - not lows which amarr actually use. Similarly the Proteus is virtually all lowslots instead of the balanced low/mid layout other gal ships enjoy - it's resulting in them being plated rather than actively tanked while amarr, and plated armour tankers, lack the mids to fit a decent tank let alone cpr & hs.
I personally find it interesting that ppl at ccp thought the ewar subs should remain inferior to the recons, yet the offensive subs deal more damage than hacs. -------------------------
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Zarazaa
Scarlet Blood
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Posted - 2010.01.13 11:42:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot.
I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis.
I think an extra turret slot would be more in line instead of all offensive subs getting drones.
The only thing that would do is escalate the problem, to major fitting issues, cap issues and so on.. The core problem isn't this subsistem or that subsistem or the likes, but the sad philosphy behind new content every single expansion has added, pre nerf and general uselessness which plagues T3 too... That wouldn't be such an issue if CCP actualy took the time after each expansion to refine and ballance the new added content, but that's not the case, and i don't think much can be done about it..
Regarding the present issue, i think a 7'th turret would be a bad idea for the fact that it creates more problems then it solvs, working with the bonuses and the slot layout of each sub to provide move flexibility would be the right way to go.. on the other hand, a basic dron bay for every single Offensive subsistem(for every T3 cruiser) should be a must imo given the unballanced nature of some game mechanics such as Scrams and Webs combined with the SLOW nature of T3 hulls comparted with most T2 and Pirate/Faction cruisers.. I've seen dual web Loki die to solo assault frigs and ceptors cause if couldn't hit em, i don't care how lame you are as a pilot, that's simply bad design, and untill that is fixed(if ever) every single Offensive sub should get atleast a basic drone bay..
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.13 12:15:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Zarazaa
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot.
I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis.
I think an extra turret slot would be more in line instead of all offensive subs getting drones.
The only thing that would do is escalate the problem, to major fitting issues, cap issues and so on.. The core problem isn't this subsistem or that subsistem or the likes, but the sad philosphy behind new content every single expansion has added, pre nerf and general uselessness which plagues T3 too... That wouldn't be such an issue if CCP actualy took the time after each expansion to refine and ballance the new added content, but that's not the case, and i don't think much can be done about it..
Regarding the present issue, i think a 7'th turret would be a bad idea for the fact that it creates more problems then it solvs, working with the bonuses and the slot layout of each sub to provide move flexibility would be the right way to go.. on the other hand, a basic dron bay for every single Offensive subsistem(for every T3 cruiser) should be a must imo given the unballanced nature of some game mechanics such as Scrams and Webs combined with the SLOW nature of T3 hulls comparted with most T2 and Pirate/Faction cruisers.. I've seen dual web Loki die to solo assault frigs and ceptors cause if couldn't hit em, i don't care how lame you are as a pilot, that's simply bad design, and untill that is fixed(if ever) every single Offensive sub should get atleast a basic drone bay..
For every T3 offensive subsystem on all races sure. Legion pilots would still whine about it because it is not a boost to them specifically.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.01.13 12:53:00 -
[58]
Sometimes people on the internet argue for the sake of arguing.
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IceAero
Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2010.01.13 13:10:00 -
[59]
Edited by: IceAero on 13/01/2010 13:12:12 Edited by: IceAero on 13/01/2010 13:10:17 Hey everyone.
I've been following this issue for a long time, every since they nerfed the legion right before T3 ships went live...
I see an EASY (and balanced, I hope) solution to this:
Liquid Crystal Magnifier subsystem: 12.5% bonus to damage instead of 10% (If you give it another turret, you'll be able to have 9 high slots, 5 from offensive, 1 from engineering, 1 from defensive, and 1 from electronics...SO IF you want it to have 7 turrets, you'll have to change another subystem's high slot addition)
Assault Optimization: 3% or 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level (It's Khanid, after all) OR 10% bonus to HAM velocity or Flight Time OR +25m3 for drones (Once again, it's Khanid)
Covert Reconfiguration: CHANGE 10% bonus to medium energy turret capacitor use per level TO 10% bonus to medium energy turret damage AND ADD:small drone bay
Drone Subsystem ADD +2 turret CHANGE 10% bonus to medium energy turret capacitor use per level TO 10% bonus to medium energy turret damage
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Deva Blackfire
Cry Me a River INC
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Posted - 2010.01.13 13:40:00 -
[60]
Originally by: IceAero
Assault Optimization: 3% or 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level (It's Khanid, after all) OR 10% bonus to HAM velocity or Flight Time OR +25m3 for drones (Once again, it's Khanid)
Armor resist - nope (would get stupid values if you use defensive resist subsystem). Drones - maybe Velocity and flight time - what for?
Just give it 7,5% rof like tengu has and it will be on par with tengu missile system (tengu gets range and choice between HAM and heavy, legion will have HAMs only but with tad more damage on non-kinetic damage types compared to legion). And considering legion fits max 2 BCU and tengu 3-4 it will balance itself out.
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