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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:19:00 -
[1]
Fleet fights are pointless. First, don't even think of having your guns grouped, or on auto-repeat, or try to change ammo. You're lucky if don't get a black screen getting into the system. Then, you're lucky if the grid loads. Then, you're lucky if enemy ships load. Then, you're lucky if your guns activate. Then, you're lucky if your guns stop firing. Then, you're lucky if you can align and warp out. Then, you're lucky if your pod self-destructs.
Eve should be marketed as a Massively Frustrating Online Game.
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Yarinor
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:24:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Kern Hotha First, don't even think of having your guns grouped
/facepalm You realize that if everyone grouped their weapons it would reduce lag by quite a bit right?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:30:00 -
[3]
Nullsec lagwars need moar threadnaught! The Time Is Now!
/signed!
Originally by: Akita T We don't hate people like you, we look at you with mostly pity and a hint of disgust balled up in a big wad of "notto disu shi'tto agen".
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Elle D
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:36:00 -
[4]
Although the OP is 100% correct, it's a small part of the bigger problem.
Lag seems to affect certain players differently than others. I don't know if it's due to system specs, ISP, or geographical location. Many times primary targets are called many seconds(60+) before they show up on my (finely tuned) overview.
I would be ok with lag if I knew my enemy was crippled by the same issue.
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Sarlem Arinum
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:38:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sarlem Arinum on 16/01/2010 04:39:29
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Kern Hotha First, don't even think of having your guns grouped
/facepalm You realize that if everyone grouped their weapons it would reduce lag by quite a bit right?
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but how do you group the turrets and bays?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Elle D Lag seems to affect certain players differently than others. I don't know if it's due to system specs, ISP, or geographical location. Many times primary targets are called many seconds(60+) before they show up on my (finely tuned) overview.
Thats because your fc was lucky enough to load the grid before you did. Blame the fact that nullsec is still running on the same sparse hardware that was around when having 10k online at once was a new and wonderful thing. Alas the technology has not caught up with the game mechanics.
Originally by: Akita T We don't hate people like you, we look at you with mostly pity and a hint of disgust balled up in a big wad of "notto disu shi'tto agen".
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sarlem Arinum Edited by: Sarlem Arinum on 16/01/2010 04:39:29
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Kern Hotha First, don't even think of having your guns grouped
/facepalm You realize that if everyone grouped their weapons it would reduce lag by quite a bit right?
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but how do you group the turrets and bays?
In space unload your guns, then hit the small triangle at the bottom right from the cap/shield/armor thingy, click on grouping mode. Now drag all your guns on top of each other, exit grouping mode load guns, pew away. Docked, fitting screen, remove ammo from guns, shift drag guns on top of each other, profit.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Serpents smile
Originally by: Sarlem Arinum Edited by: Sarlem Arinum on 16/01/2010 04:39:29
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Kern Hotha First, don't even think of having your guns grouped
/facepalm You realize that if everyone grouped their weapons it would reduce lag by quite a bit right?
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but how do you group the turrets and bays?
In space unload your guns, then hit the small triangle at the bottom right from the cap/shield/armor thingy, click on grouping mode. Now drag all your guns on top of each other, exit grouping mode load guns, pew away. Docked, fitting screen, remove ammo from guns, shift drag guns on top of each other, profit.
He was talking about grouping turrets with missiles i would assume. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Elle D Lag seems to affect certain players differently than others. I don't know if it's due to system specs, ISP, or geographical location. Many times primary targets are called many seconds(60+) before they show up on my (finely tuned) overview.
Thats because your fc was lucky enough to load the grid before you did. Blame the fact that nullsec is still running on the same sparse hardware that was around when having 10k online at once was a new and wonderful thing. Alas the technology has not caught up with the game mechanics.
It's running on 3.3 GhZ 45nm Xeons and a 64-bit server... It's not the hardware, it's the code, and the sheer fact that current technology simply can't deal with 500+ people shooting each other. (no mmo can do this)
What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.01.16 04:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Elle D Lag seems to affect certain players differently than others. I don't know if it's due to system specs, ISP, or geographical location. Many times primary targets are called many seconds(60+) before they show up on my (finely tuned) overview.
Thats because your fc was lucky enough to load the grid before you did. Blame the fact that nullsec is still running on the same sparse hardware that was around when having 10k online at once was a new and wonderful thing. Alas the technology has not caught up with the game mechanics.
It's running on 3.3 GhZ 45nm Xeons and a 64-bit server... It's not the hardware, it's the code, and the sheer fact that current technology simply can't deal with 500+ people shooting each other. (no mmo can do this)
What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
Unless something changed, not all nodes are 64bit. Infact the last time a Dev publicly noted numbers, there are very few actual "servers" utilising 64bit code. Hence the need to reinforce systems by allocating them one of the few 64bit ready nodes. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Lord Meltdown
Caldari The Wraith Templar Force
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Posted - 2010.01.16 05:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Elle D Lag seems to affect certain players differently than others. I don't know if it's due to system specs, ISP, or geographical location. Many times primary targets are called many seconds(60+) before they show up on my (finely tuned) overview.
Thats because your fc was lucky enough to load the grid before you did. Blame the fact that nullsec is still running on the same sparse hardware that was around when having 10k online at once was a new and wonderful thing. Alas the technology has not caught up with the game mechanics.
It's running on 3.3 GhZ 45nm Xeons and a 64-bit server... It's not the hardware, it's the code, and the sheer fact that current technology simply can't deal with 500+ people shooting each other. (no mmo can do this)
What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
hate to burst your bubble but 700 man cap fleets(caps only) + more support + all caps fielding sensor boosters have been done before dominion and still not as much lag as we get now, the servers never crashed when fights started and the servers crash now on smaller fights. The problem is somewhere with-en the new dominion coding or something happened when dominion was introduced.
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.01.16 05:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: mechtech What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
Most importantly, they need to keep us updated. Wtb more dev postings _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.01.16 05:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: mechtech It's running on 3.3 GhZ 45nm Xeons and a 64-bit server... It's not the hardware, it's the code, and the sheer fact that current technology simply can't deal with 500+ people shooting each other. (no mmo can do this)
Wrong. The server code pre dominion handled even largish fleet fights(1000+) fine if they chose to tell ccp beforehand so they could reinforce the node but even when the code was working fine a random fight lagged out the node because it is not setup to handle it. This is due to only having one cpu running an entire region of nullsec space though to be fair before the dominion sov update it was perfectly fine for even random 500+ fights unless they started to escalate to far.
Originally by: mechtech What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
No, they just need to seed moar servers in nullsec like they do for the motsu region. I'm assuming this has not happened yet because they are still working on infiniband and can't justify seeding a bunch of current tech servers when the leet tech is just around the corner requiring yet another costly set of brand spanking new hardware.
Originally by: Akita T We don't hate people like you, we look at you with mostly pity and a hint of disgust balled up in a big wad of "notto disu shi'tto agen".
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Culmen
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.01.16 05:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Kern Hotha First, don't even think of having your guns grouped
/facepalm You realize that if everyone grouped their weapons it would reduce lag by quite a bit right?
I made the critical error of jumping into a 500+ man cap ship battle with guns grouped.
In the entire hour + i was there, i fired a total of 4 salvos The rest of the time my guns were in an endless cycle, even after re logging.
The problem wasnt on my end, frame rates didn't drop much after i turned off all effects, brackets, zoomed out, etc.
This must have been server side.
Moral of the story, group your guns if you don't mind not shooting anything with them. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.01.16 06:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Blane Xero Unless something changed, not all nodes are 64bit. Infact the last time a Dev publicly noted numbers, there are very few actual "servers" utilising 64bit code. Hence the need to reinforce systems by allocating them one of the few 64bit ready nodes.
According to this dev blog (at the bottom), the TQ nodes are all 64-bit 16gb stuff replaced last year
Originally by: Zeba No, they just need to seed moar servers in nullsec like they do for the motsu region. I'm assuming this has not happened yet because they are still working on infiniband and can't justify seeding a bunch of current tech servers when the leet tech is just around the corner requiring yet another costly set of brand spanking new hardware.
I think coding and all that fancy networkin-databasin' stuffs the important part. Even if CCP doubled the number of nodes running the system processes (less systems/node) they'd probably still sputter and die almost as often _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2010.01.16 06:50:00 -
[16]
I know this topic has been discussed many times. I also know that if you complain about something you should probably have a solution to fix the problem, and I don't. Limiting participation per battle sucks in Warhammer and would suck here. There's got to be a solution, though.
CCP: please come up with a clever solution to let us play your game.
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
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Posted - 2010.01.16 07:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Elle D Lag seems to affect certain players differently than others. I don't know if it's due to system specs, ISP, or geographical location. Many times primary targets are called many seconds(60+) before they show up on my (finely tuned) overview.
Thats because your fc was lucky enough to load the grid before you did. Blame the fact that nullsec is still running on the same sparse hardware that was around when having 10k online at once was a new and wonderful thing. Alas the technology has not caught up with the game mechanics.
It's running on 3.3 GhZ 45nm Xeons and a 64-bit server... It's not the hardware, it's the code, and the sheer fact that current technology simply can't deal with 500+ people shooting each other. (no mmo can do this)
What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
Unless something changed, not all nodes are 64bit. Infact the last time a Dev publicly noted numbers, there are very few actual "servers" utilising 64bit code. Hence the need to reinforce systems by allocating them one of the few 64bit ready nodes.
Something changed. If I recall the Dev blog correctly, they replaced half the cluster last year and then the rest this year and they're now all 64-bit. |+ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ +|
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.01.16 08:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: mechtech
What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
Or multithreading.
Btw., yes, grouping guns in combat is bad. Always ungroup them, always set auto repeat off, disable them manually. Battles have been lost simply because one side didn't know this and couldn't shoot back. ----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Feilamya
Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2010.01.16 10:53:00 -
[19]
If the server is just as poorly coded as the client, then even the fastest CPUs, the largest cluster in the world and Infiniband won't fix the problem.
A very simple example: Did you ever browse the market while manually flying from system A to system B in The Forge?
Whenever you request the market details for another item, your client freezes. If you happen to be on a gate, you can't jump until the market request has completed. This is a minor problem, but it is still annoying, and it perfectly demonstrates why the code of the EVE client, and perhaps also the EVE server, or maybe even the EVE network protocol, is broken, and will never be able to handle large amounts of players in its current state.
Why? Your CPU is idle while your client is waiting for the server to respond. If the client wasn't the piece of **** that it is, you would see a progress bar over the market window while your UI would still be fully responsive. You could jump to the next system and read the market information when it becomes available.
This can be implemented with either multi-threading or asynchronous communication or a combination of both. When I first heard about "stackless I/O", I thought they had done it, but apparently they haven't.
In large fleet fights, the problem is exactly the same. If your client remained responsive while waiting for the server to process requests, you might not even notice the lag (which is unavoidable). Your guns might start firing a few milliseconds or seconds later than you told them to, but you could still give new commands to your ship, like targeting, activating MWD, navigating, warping out, etc.
EVE is the only MMO I know which has this problem. Large numbers of players are not an excuse for coding a real-time massively multiplayer game like it was a single-player browser game.
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Armoured C
Gallente Onei Robotics
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Posted - 2010.01.16 11:17:00 -
[20]
you fill find lag has been increased with this expansion
before this expansion the server was pretty impressive handling 1500+ man fleet fights in 0.0 and pumping jita up to new PCU of like 1600 people with no lag.
you will find that the server isnt the problem and that eve can handle it success it just the people making the code that have caused the problem.
also eve is going to keep getting bigger since progressively every year we break the total PCU at least twice last year i think we did it 4 times and i think that the server itself can handle double easy if the code is working.
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Exitar Stormscion
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Posted - 2010.01.16 11:27:00 -
[21]
Problem escalated with dominion ... yesterday we had 350 fight and after that 500 ppl fight ... both fight where lagging like hell ... and that i mean like you were in 1000 man fights.
Mortal in body Eternal in will. |
Elena Laskova
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Posted - 2010.01.16 12:05:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Elena Laskova on 16/01/2010 12:06:19
64-bit memory addressing doesn't usually make applications faster. If it helps EvE a lot, that would suggest the server nodes are severely memory constrained.
The small number of objects involved (1000 ships + their modules and cargos) suggests the underlying problem isn't memory.
A memory constraint may be the latest symptom of course. But you can't fix a performance problem caused by geometrical/exponmential complexity growth by throwing resources at it.
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Xing Fey
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Posted - 2010.01.16 12:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Feilamya If the server is just as poorly coded as the client, then even the fastest CPUs, the largest cluster in the world and Infiniband won't fix the problem.
[... SNIP LONG POST ...]
EVE is the only MMO I know which has this problem. Large numbers of players are not an excuse for coding a real-time massively multiplayer game like it was a single-player browser game.
Quoting this becaue it's right. The fundemental problem would seem to be the architecture of the eve code. The way it goes about things is for a 2003 game, not a 2010 game...
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2010.01.16 12:38:00 -
[24]
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 16/01/2010 12:39:38
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: mechtech It's running on 3.3 GhZ 45nm Xeons and a 64-bit server... It's not the hardware, it's the code, and the sheer fact that current technology simply can't deal with 500+ people shooting each other. (no mmo can do this)
Wrong. The server code pre dominion handled even largish fleet fights(1000+) fine if they chose to tell ccp beforehand so they could reinforce the node but even when the code was working fine a random fight lagged out the node because it is not setup to handle it. This is due to only having one cpu running an entire region of nullsec space though to be fair before the dominion sov update it was perfectly fine for even random 500+ fights unless they started to escalate to far.
Originally by: mechtech What they need is some technical breakthrough, like using GPUs to do the processing, or Infiniband, or making the workload able to spread across tons of cores, or even quantum computing!
No, they just need to seed moar servers in nullsec like they do for the motsu region. I'm assuming this has not happened yet because they are still working on infiniband and can't justify seeding a bunch of current tech servers when the leet tech is just around the corner requiring yet another costly set of brand spanking new hardware.
I think they first need to fix what they messed up with dominion, pre-dominion there was alot less lag, the +/- 5k increase in PCU ( prolly mostly in empire ) doesn't make much difference.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE / EVE Online ( Pre-Dust514 ? ) |
Lunatic Shakhid
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Posted - 2010.01.16 13:04:00 -
[25]
I think the software and hardware can support large fleet engagements with ease. The problems are caused by the inability of FCs to organise an effective battle using the resouces at their disposal. There is no point giving incompetant commanders extra hardware and more efficient code when all they are going to use it for is to generate a bigger blob.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2010.01.16 13:50:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kerfira on 16/01/2010 13:54:31 No matter how much HW is bought, or how effective the code is made, people will ALWAYS bring as many people as the server can handle + 50%.....
If CCP wants to get away from that, what is needed is a complete rewrite of 0.0 combat mechanics AWAY from anything that has timers on it, and instead going towards 'Sov by Activity'... Whoever DOES stuff (hunting/ratting/plexing/producing/mining/etc.) in an area should be the ones who get Sov (after a while), not just whoever puts up some structure....
It's the timers that enable the blobs to build, since everyone knows WHEN the battle is going to be. Before this basic blob-encouraging mechanic is changed, EVE 0.0 battles can be nothing but blob/lag-fests.....
Other changes would have to be done as well.... For example POS should not be involved in moon mining. Instead it should be done by mining ships (getting a higher return/time of.c.). This would provide attractive targets for hunters, but not attractive enough to warrant a blob.... The main problem is that the targets are too big/few/valuable enough to need a blob to both defend and attack.
Making the targets smaller, more numerous and less valuable would break the blob....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Shigsy
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.16 14:01:00 -
[27]
Lag for me has been fine in most fights i've been in, the real killer is cycling issues. It's fine if you can stop guns while the guy you're shooting is still alive, but if he dies while you're shooting him, you have to warp out to unstick your guns.
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Stratigic
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.01.16 15:17:00 -
[28]
Last night we crashed one of those "NON SHALL PASS" types of gatecamps, was a perfectly fair fight, like 20 vs 20 or something like that
the lag was bad, makes me think eve is just a poser game, y'no 'HAY look at my ship, it has awesome detail for a frigate'
if you follow me
but then again my comp isnt exactly the best, i suggest bringing a updates virsion of classic graphics back so people like me with crappy PC's can unite and fight lag free :D
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.01.16 15:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Kern Hotha First, don't even think of having your guns grouped
/facepalm You realize that if everyone grouped their weapons it would reduce lag by quite a bit right?
Clue to the clueless, in fleet fights, grouping your weapons = surefire way for them to get stuck when ccps ****ty netcode kicks in. Auto repeat too. Ungrouping my weps mean i can fire 4 or 5 of them whilst the others are stuck due to said ****ty netcode(this was on a reinforced node fyi). Grouping them means if one gets stuck, they ALL get stuck.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Droog 1
Black Rise Inbreds
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Posted - 2010.01.16 16:33:00 -
[30]
but the promotional videos show...oh wai... |
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