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BobSlave206
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Posted - 2010.01.22 23:52:00 -
[31]
I personally like this idea a lot. For starters any new toy to play with is a plus
My only thoughts is that I feel like a T3 ship should kick butt at one thing and be good at a few others.
Kind of like a Tengu is an amazing mission runner, but not quite the best PvP boat there ever was.
Perhaps consider having multiple types of the ship.
One specialized for mining, one for corporate type stuff, and one for hauling, or some other combination.
Look at it like the Tengu and Loki, Tengu=Epic PvE + Good PvP and Loki=Good PvE + and Epic PvP
Could also be compared to the different Exumeres
Im not expecting you to go out and make another set or two of ships, but maybe CCP should think of it.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2010.01.23 19:27:00 -
[32]
I love the look of this.
Ships that are able to survive but with an industrial focus. Would mean that you can go invade a potentially dangerous system and pilage all their ore. Or at the very least profit from hidden belts in low-sec :)
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.25 19:19:00 -
[33]
Random bump for the day. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.02.03 08:55:00 -
[34]
This is a fantastic idea and I had a similar one a while back, but I, like you, ran out of ideas on what to do for the engineering subsystems.
This really fits the idea of T3 ships being different not better, but I do have one concern. In making this ship, the blockade runner has been made obsolete. If this ship were to be created, my first purchase would be for a bubble dodging, blockade running (warp cloaked), unscanable (corperate hanger) hauling ship with a larger cargo bay than my viator.
Unfortunately I don't have a fix for you, but I will work on it, because the idea has merit.
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The Gr4veDigger
Minmatar Rogue Clones
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Posted - 2010.02.03 11:07:00 -
[35]
Bumped / Signed,
Im a battleship miner, and kind of gutted that "endgame" turret mining is Deep Core Miner IIs that go as long as strip miners and yet the battleship hold is limited to its base, because of requiring the excess CPU to fit the mining upgrades, you have to rapidly stutter the mining lasers, which is bare-able but would be nice if there was something like what your proposing.
============================== Ink. Marks worth with pride. Symbols of courage and determination. Earned, not given. Rise to the challenge. |
Odhinn Vinlandii
Minmatar Deuses Wild Reckoning.
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Posted - 2010.02.03 22:20:00 -
[36]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Citizens of Eve!!! I present to you, my proposal for a T3 industrial cruiser. These ideas are a compilation of features from various other proposals, players, and the current T3 subsystems.
Strategic = Industry/Infrastructure/Economy Tactical = Military.
Strategic Cruisers are clearly industrial ships.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.03 22:23:00 -
[37]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/02/2010 22:25:36
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Citizens of Eve!!! I present to you, my proposal for a T3 industrial cruiser. These ideas are a compilation of features from various other proposals, players, and the current T3 subsystems.
Strategic = Industry/Infrastructure/Economy Tactical = Military.
Strategic Cruisers are clearly industrial ships.
Thank you for that constructive post.
To all the others, thanks for the bumps.
@ Sigras: I understand your concern. I guess the big difference would be cargo capacity: the covert subsystem should be balanced such that even when fit for max cargo, it still does not have as much cargo space as the lowest of the blockade runners fit for max cargo(caldari/minmatar?) _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Xander Styles
Caldari Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.02.04 00:50:00 -
[38]
It makes sense for npc corps like ORE to take advantage of the new tech to enhance their mining operations, this is an excellent idea
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.02.04 05:07:00 -
[39]
I generally support the idea of an ORE T3 cruiser/BC.
Some of the specifics here seem a bit underwhelming for what would be such an expensive ship. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to be spending 400-ish mill (roughly Ocra-cost) for ship plus subsystems, then you should get Hulk+ performance from it, in addition to the T3 flexibility.
Please note some of the excellent number-crunching and idea generation in this thread from some months ago on the topic.
Since as you've pointed out, industrial additions to EVE come few and far between, I suggest aiming higher with the T3 industrial idea.
Thank you for resurrecting the idea, however.
--Krum --Krum |
Sigras
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Posted - 2010.02.04 05:55:00 -
[40]
Ah, didn't see that the cove ops and the corporation hanger were mutually exclusive. . . Nice work!
@yon CCP has already stated in numerous places that there will be nothing that straight out-mines the hulk besides, as people have already stated,
More minerals per hour = more mineral inflation = less profit per mineral = the same isk/hour
What people don't realize is that this will make T1 ships cheaper making suicide ganks more profitable
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.04 16:55:00 -
[41]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 04/02/2010 16:56:04 Bumping this again.
As Sigras noted, CCP has stated that no ship shall out mine the Hulk. Additionally, note why; more minerals into the system is a bad thing.
Yes this will be expensive like the current T3; but you aren't paying for it to be better than a hulk/orca/blockade runner, at least not in their specialized fields. You are paying for the options and the unique features it provides.
I remember seeing that other T3 industrial idea a while back; I will have to look at it closer for the number crunching it provides. Eventually I would like to dive into slot layouts but that is a ton of work (working out what the slots would be like with all the different combinations). _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.06 16:01:00 -
[42]
bump for the weekend. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.07 11:39:00 -
[43]
Originally by: XXSketchxx Edited by: XXSketchxx on 04/02/2010 16:56:04 Bumping this again.
As Sigras noted, CCP has stated that no ship shall out mine the Hulk. Additionally, note why; more minerals into the system is a bad thing.
Yes this will be expensive like the current T3; but you aren't paying for it to be better than a hulk/orca/blockade runner, at least not in their specialized fields. You are paying for the options and the unique features it provides.
I remember seeing that other T3 industrial idea a while back; I will have to look at it closer for the number crunching it provides. Eventually I would like to dive into slot layouts but that is a ton of work (working out what the slots would be like with all the different combinations).
If it had 5 turrets, it would need a ton of cap. Also, unlike current Hulks etc, more lowslots for armor tank would be preferable if it has to survive in hostile environments like lowsec. Hulks are too easy for players to pop so even an escort isn't enough, the hulk has often popped before the escort has even locked the attacker. This should allow enough time for an escort to train their weapons on an attacker and make him back off.
With a massive hold space of even the equivalent of 1 jetcan, it should be as slow as hell, maybe 40 or 50 m/s. Something akin to an Orca for speed.
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Zann Mei
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.02.07 13:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Engineering Subsystems:
- Augmented Capacitor Reservoir û 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level
- Capacitor Regeneration Matrix û 5% reduction in capacitor recharge rate per level
- Power Core Multiplier û 5% bonus to power output per level
- Harvester Capacitor Optimization û 5% reduced capacitor usage of Mining Lasers and Gas Harvesters per level
The Harvester Capacitor Optimization should have its bonus raised to about 15% per level, the current cap usage of mining lasers isn't that big, and the Cap regeneration matrix would be better in every other way unless the only active modules on your ship are mining lasers. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.07 19:13:00 -
[45]
Update:
-Introduced slot layouts (nearly directly based on tengu) -Introduced base cargo capacities. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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boeboe joe
Gallente Sons Of Sins and Shadow
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Posted - 2010.02.07 20:20:00 -
[46]
I just want to say that CCP is doing a great job on Eve and I love the game. I however agree that industrial ships have been on the backburner for far too long, but again hopefully we will see that change with this thread. I love this idea, and hope to see it in the next expansion.
/signed "I tohught of that!" Lester Stickins, my father. |
Glacture
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Posted - 2010.02.07 21:32:00 -
[47]
/signed
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Rogerano
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.08 04:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: XXSketchxx More edits
Added a 30 second activation delay to cloaking after deactivating miner(s). This is to prevent miners from too easy of getaways. The covert ops cloak is designed to help enable travel through and into hostile areas, not to allow immunity.
Cov-ops on this ship is inappropriate.
It usually takes more than 30 seconds for a ship to align, warp, and land. This means that an attacker will probably arrive at your location after you've cloaked. And that is in a perfect world. In the real world an attacker must load local grid, narrow your ship down to an astral body, warp, land, target your ship, and get a point on. This cannot be done in less than 30 seconds.
But that's by-the-by. A cov-ops cloak is inappropriate no matter the activation delay. Assuming this ship can align and warp in < 20 seconds, it's a simple matter - if local acquires another peace-loving citizen of EVE - for the pilot to warp away from the belt to a prepared safe spot and cloak.
So yes, the cloak does provide immunity. If you want to ninja-mine, get a burst. Much cheaper. --- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.08 04:51:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Rogerano
Cov-ops on this ship is inappropriate.
It usually takes more than 30 seconds for a ship to align, warp, and land. This means that an attacker will probably arrive at your location after you've cloaked. And that is in a perfect world. In the real world an attacker must load local grid, narrow your ship down to an astral body, warp, land, target your ship, and get a point on. This cannot be done in less than 30 seconds.
But that's by-the-by. A cov-ops cloak is inappropriate no matter the activation delay. Assuming this ship can align and warp in < 20 seconds, it's a simple matter - if local acquires another peace-loving citizen of EVE - for the pilot to warp away from the belt to a prepared safe spot and cloak.
So yes, the cloak does provide immunity. If you want to ninja-mine, get a burst. Much cheaper.
You could do the same with a hulk though really, as long as you have a station/safespot/POS to warp to. Having the activation delay makes things a bit trickier .
The point of the covert ops cloak is to provide easier transit to dangerous areas. Thanks for the input though. Positive and negative (with good reason) is always welcome. If the covert ops cloaking device were to be removed, what would you replace it with? _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Rogerano
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.08 05:34:00 -
[50]
To do so would reduce the effectiveness of a hulk by 1/3rd. Not an attractive option, in addition to not offering particularly effective evasion when on the move through gates. However I think that's the best that should be offered to miners. It's a nice balance.
This covert-ops miner represents an obvious choice for 0.0 miners who want to operate in risky areas. It would be impervious to interception with the right fittings, just as T3 cruisers are. Your intentions don't matter.
Ninja-mining would take on whole new meaning. Covert portal a bunch of cov-ops miners and expanded blockade-runners in. When full, portal out again.
We have mining platforms. They have proven adequate. If miners want to operate in risky areas they will need escort and protection.
--- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.02.09 02:15:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rogerano To do so would reduce the effectiveness of a hulk by 1/3rd. Not an attractive option,
You realize that his proposal < 10% better than a hulk with 2 strips and a cloak right?
Originally by: Rogerano This covert-ops miner represents an obvious choice for 0.0 miners who want to operate in risky areas. It would be impervious to interception with the right fittings, just as T3 cruisers are. Your intentions don't matter.
Because its not possible to kill a blockade runner outside of using a bubble right?
Originally by: Rogerano Ninja-mining would take on whole new meaning. Covert portal a bunch of cov-ops miners and expanded blockade-runners in. When full, portal out again.
Why is this a bad thing? They're putting ships out there that are > 4x the cost of a hulk, even in the current inflated market! Also, ever hear of a rorqual?
Originally by: Rogerano We have mining platforms. They have proven adequate. If miners want to operate in risky areas they will need escort and protection.
Says the man providing escort and protection. . .
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Rogerano
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.09 04:37:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sigras You realize that his proposal < 10% better than a hulk with 2 strips and a cloak right?
So? The proposal also includes the ability to pretty much go any where (provided the pilot knows his stuff) with low risk. I believe one day the T3 combat cruisers will also have this ability toned down, FWIW. It is currently a little over the top, but hey I enjoy making use of it so I'm not going to complain about ships _currently_ endowed. At least non-T3 ships capable of fitting cov-ops cloaks are unable to warp within a bubble and this increases the chances of interception.
Originally by: Sigras Because its not possible to kill a blockade runner outside of using a bubble right?
Well I guess that depends on what you have with you when you attempt an intercept. Shrug. We've done it a few times in and out of a bubble. Not sure what your point is. The bubble does make it much easier TBH.
Originally by: Sigras Why is this a bad thing? They're putting ships out there that are > 4x the cost of a hulk, even in the current inflated market! Also, ever hear of a rorqual?
Rorqual can hardly be considered a ninja miner in the same league as the black-ops possibilities I mentioned. With the new fuel bays, a few black-ops, and expanded blockade-runners it would be possible to run a nice mining session in hostile 0.0 with no risk. The ships would be a one-time outlay (which is not the case for combat ships). I guess getting the ore out would present a challenge - perhaps this is where you see balance?
Originally by: Sigras Says the man providing escort and protection. . .
Not sure what you mean here. I do not think the type of pvp I sporadically participate in is relevant to this discussion.
Mining in 0.0 should not be risk free. --- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause. |
Qujulome
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.02.09 07:54:00 -
[53]
Idea is awesome, details need to be debated more. /support
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.02.09 12:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Rogerano So? The proposal also includes the ability to pretty much go any where (provided the pilot knows his stuff) with low risk. I believe one day the T3 combat cruisers will also have this ability toned down, FWIW. It is currently a little over the top, but hey I enjoy making use of it so I'm not going to complain about ships _currently_ endowed. At least non-T3 ships capable of fitting cov-ops cloaks are unable to warp within a bubble and this increases the chances of interception.
Originally by: Sigras Because its not possible to kill a blockade runner outside of using a bubble right?
Well I guess that depends on what you have with you when you attempt an intercept. Shrug. We've done it a few times in and out of a bubble. Not sure what your point is. The bubble does make it much easier TBH.
Originally by: Sigras Why is this a bad thing? They're putting ships out there that are > 4x the cost of a hulk, even in the current inflated market! Also, ever hear of a rorqual?
Rorqual can hardly be considered a ninja miner in the same league as the black-ops possibilities I mentioned. With the new fuel bays, a few black-ops, and expanded blockade-runners it would be possible to run a nice mining session in hostile 0.0 with no risk. The ships would be a one-time outlay (which is not the case for combat ships). I guess getting the ore out would present a challenge - perhaps this is where you see balance?
I guess my response to all of this is to say that I would have the industrial module dictate the mass/agility of the ship. I would give it about 15,000,000 kg of mass and the agility of a plated battlecruiser. That would make it very hard to black ops cyno and make it less uber at bubble dodging. Also it would make this module less popular for wormhole-ing and make a potential AB/MWD less effective.
Additionally I ran the numbers, and even with T2 expander rigs, the MAX cargo space you can have on one of these with bubble dodging and covert ops cloak is 2,425.95 m^3 or about 3 minutes of mining. . . You can bring blockade runners if you want but they can't bubble dodge. . .
Originally by: Rogerano
Originally by: Sigras Says the man providing escort and protection. . .
Not sure what you mean here. I do not think the type of pvp I sporadically participate in is relevant to this dicussion.
Mining in 0.0 should not be risk free.
This comment was meant to be factitious sorry, that's so hard to do in text format. . . :(
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.09 16:32:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sigras
Additionally I ran the numbers, and even with T2 expander rigs, the MAX cargo space you can have on one of these with bubble dodging and covert ops cloak is 2,425.95 m^3 or about 3 minutes of mining. . . You can bring blockade runners if you want but they can't bubble dodge. . .
This is a key part of the proposal. With the covert ops setup, yes you can get to your mining spot relatively easily and mine relatively safely. But, mine less than a T1 covetor (10mi?) and you have a tiny cargohold, meaning you will either have to jetcan and come back with a hauler, or drop to a station/POS. Point being, there will be plenty opportunities of vulnerability.
Now you could use the ore yield subsystem and get performance slightly better than a covetor, though less than a hulk, but on the upside have an ore bay of potentially 25,000m3 (just less than 1 jetcan). But, you lose the safety of the cloak.
Honestly, I don't think the cloak is unbalanced; current T3 cruisers can be fit to get into hostile areas safely to rat/plex, while losing some efficiency (less damage = slower ratting). Why shouldn't miners be able to do the same (but with less effectiveness). _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.02.10 03:39:00 -
[56]
I do have a few questions for the OP though. . .
1. Why does the industrial processor get a low slot? I would rather see it get a mid slot for two reasons. a. A mid slot would potentially allow for command processors. b. It makes the signature optimizer the only choice to add a low slot limiting the ability to mobile boost/harvest/haul
2. Why does the Emergent Locus Analyzer get a 99% reduced CPU need for Scan Probe Launchers bonus? The core launcher, which is what I'm assuming it was designed for, only takes up 10 CPU, and I'm not sure this thing should be able to use combat probes. . . Seems a bit out of the ships role.
Just my thoughts
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.10 04:03:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sigras I do have a few questions for the OP though. . .
1. Why does the industrial processor get a low slot? I would rather see it get a mid slot for two reasons. a. A mid slot would potentially allow for command processors. b. It makes the signature optimizer the only choice to add a low slot limiting the ability to mobile boost/harvest/haul
2. Why does the Emergent Locus Analyzer get a 99% reduced CPU need for Scan Probe Launchers bonus? The core launcher, which is what I'm assuming it was designed for, only takes up 10 CPU, and I'm not sure this thing should be able to use combat probes. . . Seems a bit out of the ships role.
Just my thoughts
To answer all your questions in one go:
Laziness
A very good point about the probe launcher; I am definitely going to adjust that subsystem. I will take a look at the slot layouts. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.02.10 04:30:00 -
[58]
To my earlier post:
First I understand issues of mineral inflation and mining rates. If CCP has flatly stated nothing will ever out-mine a (bonused, presumably) Hulk, then so be it. "Hulk+" performance covers quite a bit of ground, from tank to cargo to agility, as well.
For a T3 industrial ship, if you are going into it knowing that you will not get any mining performance upgrade over your existing Hulk, then the ship had better bring some utility that is perfect for certain types of operations: mining in wormholes, mining in lowsec/0.0, ice mining, gas mining, salvaging, etc. There's a great deal of opportunity for some creativity here, fortunately, because industry ships have been untouched for so long (other than capitals).
I don't have the time to create the input given in the previous thread I linked to, but I will return to a key point: * Posters considering this general ship idea have consistently UNDER-estimated subsystem bonuses!
I'm not really sure why this is, other than perhaps a psychological reaction to the kind of "red-headed-stepchild/locked-in-the-closet" relationship industry has with CCP. We're dying for some real attention, but don't settle for less than what's being given with the T3 cruisers! (Even subpar ones like the Legion.)
Likewise, a T3 industrial should bring real role flexibility, much like the T3 cruisers do: cloak, highDPS, sniping, enhanced tank, enhanced buffer, ewar, bubble immunity--all of these are viable with each T3 cruiser (to one extent or another), just not at the same time. Similarly, swapping the subsystems should take the ship from mining to specific type mining, to salvaging, to hauling, to tanking, to cloaking, to ... etc. You get the picture. Flexibility.
--Krum --Krum |
Sjors Sjoemelaar
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Posted - 2010.02.10 09:16:00 -
[59]
/signed
Going for a T3 ship, is for my miner no option but if there are T3 industrials then I go for F3 Tech.
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Janeth Veris
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Posted - 2010.02.10 11:00:00 -
[60]
I have a further suggestion.
***Limit this t3 indy ship to using 1 and only 1 strip miner. ***(and bonusses only for t2 strip miner) At max this one strip miner should have a yeild of around 5000 - 7000m3
The logic is this: -Firstly this means you can only mine 1 type of ore at a time = more specialized -This means other high slots can be used for guns salvagers and other stuff -And most importantly this means most hi-sec roids wil be worthless for this thing. Therefore making this thing less effecient than a hulk in hi-sec but more effecient in 0.0.
The cover ops reconfiguration subsystem is unbalanced I think. A max cargo bay of 25000m3 for ore is 2 much! The ship should be either a hauler or a miner. not both.
So: ore yield subsystem: 40% bonus to mining laser yield per level. 10000m3 ore hold bay. 200m3 cargo ore hauler sybsystem: +10000m3 ore hold per level. 500m3 cargo
This wil push people more into team working and this way this ship does not become a super replacement for hulk solo mining in hi-sec.
lastly I recommend this: cover ops reconfiguration subsystem: +30% bonus to mercoxit mining yield per level - 99% cpu for covops cloak - 5000m3 ore bay. 200m3 cargo bay.
We need an ice mining subsystem as well I would say :)
The main problem with this ship is it should be balanced next to hulks and orca's. And what we don't want is 100's of this stuff going back and forth in hi-sec cleaning out all the belts.
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