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BrackRotus
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: BrackRotus on 21/01/2010 17:31:03
I have rocket specialization IV with my other supportive missile skills to IV too. My rockets are still hitting around 30 to 40 damage a hit on ships that give bonus to them. This has been like this for a while and it would be awesome if there was a boost in the future.
Does anyone know if rockets are getting overhauled and have links to the info? My rocket DPS is super low even with implants compared to most turret damages and it's not fun anymore to fly my caldari specialized rocket ships with the DPS this low. I'm specialized in the skills given to me and it's just not giving me the results.
If Minmatar woke up tomorrow with 150's doing 30 or 40 damage a hit the world would end and we would have a patch.
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Viibl Triibl
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:37:00 -
[2]
I've been wanting someone to summarize why rockets are so broken. Is this why? Damage never really scales with skills or equipment?
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:37:00 -
[3]
Lost skillpoints it happens with everybody ,get over it.
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BrackRotus
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:40:00 -
[4]
I was in a 5% bonus to rocket ship per level and I still didn't hit above 30 damage on a non shield tanking frigate. 1 autocannon can summarize in 1 shot the 5 shots from one of my rocket launchers.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:43:00 -
[5]
Welcome to last year. Everyone knows that rockets are so broken they're not worth using (except you, apparently).
The only reason to even mount a rocket launcher is if you plan to toss defender missiles in it. --Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
BrackRotus
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: BrackRotus on 21/01/2010 17:45:34
Originally by: De'Veldrin Welcome to last year. Everyone knows that rockets are so broken they're not worth using (except you, apparently).
The only reason to even mount a rocket launcher is if you plan to toss defender missiles in it.
I just came back but it's good to hear I'm not the only one.
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el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:51:00 -
[7]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1209391&page=1
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Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: BrackRotus If Minmatar woke up tomorrow with 150's doing 30 or 40 damage a hit the world would end and we would have a patch.
If Minmatar woke up tomorrow and their BS weapons only did 30-40 damage, they would just call that "Friday". They're used to that sort of thing by now.
To answer your questions though: Yes, rockets suck. Yes, the Devs are aware of this. Yes, they have been aware of this for a very long time. No, they have not given a date for a "rocket fix". ** Disclaimer: Author sometimes spell checks but is not responsible for sins of commission, omission, emission, transmission, or submission. Flowers, bricks, or any other form of feedback appreciated |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.21 17:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kassa Daito
If Minmatar woke up tomorrow and their BS weapons only did 30-40 damage, they would just call that "Friday". They're used to that sort of thing by now.
lol yeah and think about why they still use caldari ships at Friday :P
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.01.21 18:01:00 -
[10]
Didnt some dev said that they know about this problem and they will look at it?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.21 18:06:00 -
[11]
Yesterday
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Debrace
Minmatar Dark Fusion Industries One Stop Research
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Posted - 2010.01.21 18:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kassa Daito
Originally by: BrackRotus If Minmatar woke up tomorrow with 150's doing 30 or 40 damage a hit the world would end and we would have a patch.
Um... did you not just see the recent projectile patch? What the hell is this "The world would end and we would have a patch"
Not sure if you've been around long enough but there was an old saying.
"In Eve, there are four modes, Easy, Medium, Hard, and then there is Minmatar"
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Sprilk
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Posted - 2010.01.21 18:53:00 -
[13]
I do like ccp being aware of the problem.... as probably one of the only players with rocket spec 5 its very exciting.
I trained rocket spec 5 in anticipation of them getting a fix... waiting is fun!
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yani dumyat
Minmatar Pixie Cats
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Posted - 2010.01.21 19:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: yani dumyat on 21/01/2010 19:16:45
Please add your support to the assembly hall thread about fixing rockets.
Rockets suck mainly because you start with low EFT damage, have most of that dps removed the moment someone fits an AB and then you need to reload 1/2 way through a fight. _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.21 19:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Debrace
Originally by: Kassa Daito
Originally by: BrackRotus If Minmatar woke up tomorrow with 150's doing 30 or 40 damage a hit the world would end and we would have a patch.
Um... did you not just see the recent projectile patch? What the hell is this "The world would end and we would have a patch"
Not sure if you've been around long enough but there was an old saying.
"In Eve, there are four modes, Easy, Medium, Hard, and then there is Minmatar"
Yep but wrong order it is matar <easy<medium < hard < caldari
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.01.21 19:10:00 -
[16]
No matter what you do, rockets need a web to buff damage! Unless ccp is going to make and insane increase in explosion velocity that will prolly make rockets overpowered.
Aways in the real-thing both ships tend to be (orbiting) which brings down the overall velocity. The problem is not rockets its the ships that use rockets! For example; Lasers are uber on there own but on a omen would it stil be that uber? now look at lasers on the puisher, prophecy, maller, retri, and coecer. You begin to realise that its not the weapon system but the ships them selves are the problem.
When you look at the mrym, ishkur, vexor and domi. You come to understand that blasters may be a bad weapon system, but the ships/bonus's themselves off set the downside of the weapon system.
So what i look for in a rocket/ship is either tank or high base speed! The only rocket ship that gives me tank which offsets the need for speed is the (vengeance). Fitted correctly it can do 110/dps and tank alot of damage! The other ship is the hookbill that provides highbase speed. Also gives me the ability (due to having 5 midslots) to fit a second web!
So tank to metigate large amounts of damage while dealing good amount of your own or speed to mitigate all incoming damage and dictate range.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.21 19:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Debrace
"In Eve, there are four modes, Easy, Medium, Hard, and then there is Minmatar"
Yep but wrong order it is matar <easy<medium < hard < caldari
I'm not sure I agree - even as a Caldari spec. PvE - meh whatever, but I think Caldari have it made. PvP - depends a lot on how you work - it remains my opinion that Caldari have some of the best choices in any given fleet role. They just don't do 'generalist' - you fit a bit of tank, bit of gank, bit of tackle and they're not that great. You spec up in a given role though, and they're really quite effective.
*shrug*.
Anyway, I agree with the OP. And Gypsio III. Rockets are substandard, because they get hosed by explosion velocity and explosion radius, and because their actual flight velocity is too similar to the flight velocity of the things you're shooting them at in the first place (e.g. drones and frigates - on MWD, most of them will just outrun rockets)
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BrackRotus
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Posted - 2010.01.21 20:13:00 -
[18]
Thanks for the links. As long as they're working on it that's all I can ask for. I don't want them overpowering but something has to give here.
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Fiben Bolger
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.21 21:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Proxyyyy No matter what you do, rockets need a web to buff damage! Unless ccp is going to make and insane increase in explosion velocity that will prolly make rockets overpowered.
Aways in the real-thing both ships tend to be (orbiting) which brings down the overall velocity. The problem is not rockets its the ships that use rockets! For example; Lasers are uber on there own but on a omen would it stil be that uber? now look at lasers on the puisher, prophecy, maller, retri, and coecer. You begin to realise that its not the weapon system but the ships them selves are the problem.
When you look at the mrym, ishkur, vexor and domi. You come to understand that blasters may be a bad weapon system, but the ships/bonus's themselves off set the downside of the weapon system.
So what i look for in a rocket/ship is either tank or high base speed! The only rocket ship that gives me tank which offsets the need for speed is the (vengeance). Fitted correctly it can do 110/dps and tank alot of damage! The other ship is the hookbill that provides highbase speed. Also gives me the ability (due to having 5 midslots) to fit a second web!
So tank to metigate large amounts of damage while dealing good amount of your own or speed to mitigate all incoming damage and dictate range.
My rockets hit every two seconds. I can hit anything in web range. Their explosion radius is lower than the signature radius of a Warrior II.
This poster is correct. Fit a web.
I know. I know. Everyone knows that rockets suck. Most people haven't ever fired one and they know that. And they think that the EFT DPS calculation on guns takes into account the angular velocity of your target and tracking. As if it could.
Rockets don't miss. They do maximum damage against almost anything. And the rate of fire is awesome. They are not the best weapon system. But it is really easy to get Rocket Specialization, they are better than light missiles, you can change damage type, and they don't use cap.
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Fiben Bolger
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.21 22:07:00 -
[20]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Debrace
"In Eve, there are four modes, Easy, Medium, Hard, and then there is Minmatar"
Yep but wrong order it is matar <easy<medium < hard < caldari
I'm not sure I agree - even as a Caldari spec. PvE - meh whatever, but I think Caldari have it made. PvP - depends a lot on how you work - it remains my opinion that Caldari have some of the best choices in any given fleet role. They just don't do 'generalist' - you fit a bit of tank, bit of gank, bit of tackle and they're not that great. You spec up in a given role though, and they're really quite effective.
*shrug*.
Anyway, I agree with the OP. And Gypsio III. Rockets are substandard, because they get hosed by explosion velocity and explosion radius, and because their actual flight velocity is too similar to the flight velocity of the things you're shooting them at in the first place (e.g. drones and frigates - on MWD, most of them will just outrun rockets)
I'm sorry. They get hosed on explosion radius? If the explosion velocity were any higher they would be overpowered on account of their ridiculously low explosion radius. Look at what the variables "explosion velocity" and "explosion radius" are doing in the equation, instead of trying to imagine what they would translate to in the real world, intuitively. Their descriptions are irrelevant, in the end it's just numbers. If the denominator of your ratio is 20, then a numerator over 100 is going to start giving you some big mixed numerals. What's the signature radius of a frigate? 50? And the velocity of a webbed, scrambled frigate? 200 or so? Is that unreasonable? 50 over 200 hundred is about 1/4. Compare that to 5/1. You end up with a multiplier that favors the rocket.
Rockets were once overpowered, I hear. Then they were nerfed and the *****ing seems to have lasted years.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.01.21 22:40:00 -
[21]
This isn't about PVE, Fiben
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.21 22:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gypsio III This isn't about PVE, Fiben
Yep he has no clue at all why rockets are crap.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.01.21 22:53:00 -
[23]
I was writing a counter argument, but it seems I don't have to.
I'll just stick with: 75mm gatling rails do the same DPS as rockets, with 9+3.8km range, vs. ~10km range. 75mm gatling rails also can trade down to antimatter ammo for more damage than that, and fit spike to outrange javelin rockets (and spike doesn't slow you down, which is pretty crippling on a small ship)
75mm gatling rails also take around 1/3rd the CPU, and 1/2 the powergrid to fit.
Where rockets against a 40m signature are losing damage as soon as they exceed 255m/sec, a 75mm gatling rail at optimal is tracking at 1462m/sec. Yes, the turret does start to lose out as you get closer, but even at the 4500m range of antimatter (which is more damage) that's still 742m/sec.
People don't fit 75mm gatling rails very often, because they suck, and the only reason to do so is they're absurdly easy to fit.
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Ammy Azimuth
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Posted - 2010.01.21 23:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: James Lyrus I was writing a counter argument, but it seems I don't have to.
I'll just stick with: 75mm gatling rails do the same DPS as rockets, with 9+3.8km range, vs. ~10km range. 75mm gatling rails also can trade down to antimatter ammo for more damage than that, and fit spike to outrange javelin rockets (and spike doesn't slow you down, which is pretty crippling on a small ship)
75mm gatling rails also take around 1/3rd the CPU, and 1/2 the powergrid to fit.
Where rockets against a 40m signature are losing damage as soon as they exceed 255m/sec, a 75mm gatling rail at optimal is tracking at 1462m/sec. Yes, the turret does start to lose out as you get closer, but even at the 4500m range of antimatter (which is more damage) that's still 742m/sec.
People don't fit 75mm gatling rails very often, because they suck, and the only reason to do so is they're absurdly easy to fit.
Do 75's on a raptor. It's not bad actually since raptors get the optimal bonus.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.01.22 00:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Do 75's on a raptor. It's not bad actually since raptors get the optimal bonus.
imo it mostly isn't very relevant what guns people fit on tackle interceptors as well they tackle if they can actually hit the target well that is just a bonus.
something like say the tarannis is well a bit different.
that and I remember fitting 125s to my harpy and destroying a 6km/s dictor way back before the nano nerf and such.
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Mister LEM0NS
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Posted - 2010.01.22 03:05:00 -
[26]
Does dps realy matter with a rate of fire at 1.5 seconds? a kestrel with 4 launchers doing 40dps can rack up 900 damage in the time it takes my drakes launchers to cycle once. (and thats 2300 volly so 900 is amazing for frigate vs battlecruiser.) So be proud of what you have! |
Ellena Manim
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Posted - 2010.01.22 04:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mister LEM0NS Does dps realy matter with a rate of fire at 1.5 seconds? a kestrel with 4 launchers doing 40dps can rack up 900 damage in the time it takes my drakes launchers to cycle once. (and thats 2300 volly so 900 is amazing for frigate vs battlecruiser.) So be proud of what you have!
Is that trolling?
DPS= Damage per second, not volley damage.
Rocket lack in both,as they have ridiculous low damage.
DPS? Ho yeah, with Rapid Fire IV and Rocket specialization III fires once every 2.38sec on a t2 rocket launcher. (I'm unsure how to get to 1.5 reload, BCUs, maybe)
As 40 rockets fits in a t2 launcher, I need reload once every 95.2 seconds... for 10 sec. Which means (for me) rockets combat includes 9.2% of the time in reload. Let's say each rockets deals 10 damage. (40*10) / 105 = 3.81 Effective DPS Without reload: 4.21
Anyway, take your figure, 40 rockets, 1.5s RoF, that's the all rack in 60 second. (40*10) / 70 = 5.71. Effective DPS Without reload : 6.6666
So boosting the reloading from 2.38 to 1.5 create an apparent boost of DPS of 58% ((66.6-4.21)/4.21)) but taking reload into account it's only 50%...
Do you see what is wrong? The rockets get DPS boost by getting a lower reload (common for missile). For most missile, you spend way more time shooting the reloading. But for rockets, as the reload applies you spend more and more proportional time reloading. The biggest the boost to rate of fire, the more effect reload has.
Add to that a slow speed, and small damage... and you have a broken rocket.
Funny comparison, in PVE i could watch the same cruiser melt under the fire of a retribution, or repair while I was reloading rockets in a vengeance.. Guess which ship got faster kills. |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.22 14:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Fiben Bolger
Originally by: Proxyyyy No matter what you do, rockets need a web to buff damage! Unless ccp is going to make and insane increase in explosion velocity that will prolly make rockets overpowered.
Aways in the real-thing both ships tend to be (orbiting) which brings down the overall velocity. The problem is not rockets its the ships that use rockets! For example; Lasers are uber on there own but on a omen would it stil be that uber? now look at lasers on the puisher, prophecy, maller, retri, and coecer. You begin to realise that its not the weapon system but the ships them selves are the problem.
When you look at the mrym, ishkur, vexor and domi. You come to understand that blasters may be a bad weapon system, but the ships/bonus's themselves off set the downside of the weapon system.
So what i look for in a rocket/ship is either tank or high base speed! The only rocket ship that gives me tank which offsets the need for speed is the (vengeance). Fitted correctly it can do 110/dps and tank alot of damage! The other ship is the hookbill that provides highbase speed. Also gives me the ability (due to having 5 midslots) to fit a second web!
So tank to metigate large amounts of damage while dealing good amount of your own or speed to mitigate all incoming damage and dictate range.
My rockets hit every two seconds. I can hit anything in web range. Their explosion radius is lower than the signature radius of a Warrior II.
This poster is correct. Fit a web.
I know. I know. Everyone knows that rockets suck. Most people haven't ever fired one and they know that. And they think that the EFT DPS calculation on guns takes into account the angular velocity of your target and tracking. As if it could.
Rockets don't miss. They do maximum damage against almost anything. And the rate of fire is awesome. They are not the best weapon system. But it is really easy to get Rocket Specialization, they are better than light missiles, you can change damage type, and they don't use cap.
Show me a Kestrel fit with a web and a tank ;)
Actually, EFT does take tracking into account, if you actaully bother to use the feature. :P
Tho most don't. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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