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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.01.30 16:12:00 -
[61]
Originally by: wagashi TeaDaze whole argue can be summarized into ,I paid good money for my garage alt and you aren't going to make me look like a tool by making it obselete.
If you are going to summarize my position please do so accurately instead of trying to put words into my mouth.
As I have stated previously I don't have and never have had a supercapital. I have a carrier pilot who like most carrier pilots could fly a supercarrier (it doesn't require anything special, just needs racial carrier level 3 - not even 4 or 5 required!).
So at this point one group of people say I shouldn't be commenting on this because I don't have one already and another group complain I couldn't possibly be arguing against it unless I have...
Put that to one side, why don't I have a supercarrier? Simple. I don't want to have that pilot stuck inside the ship because I use him for other things. This along with the cost vs usage I would get means I decide not to buy a supercarrier. The restrictions are working as intended for me (and I'm sure many other people).
Lets look at supercarrier ownership
* Needs a carrier pilot with racial carrier 3 (lots of those in game) * Needs 15-20 billion isk (Significant but totally achievable for many of those carrier pilots) * Requires the pilot to sit in the ship at all times or leave it unattended at a friendly POS (This is one thing that puts me and OP off)
Now, if I was in an alliance throwing capitals around everyday then that third restriction wouldn't stop me owning one because I would have a reason to use it everyday. Agony don't throw caps around everyday so for me another negative is how little use it would get meaning it would need to be parked most of the time.
Now, in the OP's world where you can park your supercarrier in a pos and have it sit there 100% safe without any further interaction that third restriction vanishes. Now any casual player with a carrier pilot and some isk can own a supercarrier. That is something I feel would be terrible for the game.
Some people sidestep the issue with either garage alts, or more commonly in my experience have a second combat pilot. Is it cheating? OP thinks so and I respect his position. I won't use a garage alt either because I have enough alts already thanks and don't want another one . Many people do but it is their choice and not a requirement.
I simply don't agree that CCP are forcing people to have an alt, which was the crux of the OP's argument for changing the rules.
Originally by: wagashi Absolutely Supported. Of all the idiotic uses of POS bowling and all the crap unpreventable theft there is just no sane reason to ever leave it in a POS ever. I can't even believe this guy can sit there and say not being able to leave the ship EVER is a required handicap to its combat ability.
Firstly I was under the impression that POS bowling was patched out over a year ago and anything left in the POS shield isn't safe no matter what value it has. I don't see why supercapitals should be safe at a pos when other ships are not.
Secondly you can argue that point all you like but it is one of the restrictions that CCP decided was appropriate. I'm simply saying I don't see a compelling reason to make supercapitals easier to own. I am however just one of nine on the CSM and I don't speak for the rest of them. It is entirely possible such a proposal would pass without my vote.
Rather than trying to attack me or misrepresent my position why not support the proposal the OP raised and encourage other people to as well. If enough support is achieved then it will end up in front of the CSM. I won't support it but there are 7-8 others who might...
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 10:15:00 -
[62]
Originally by: TeaDaze
Now, in the OP's world where you can park your supercarrier in a pos and have it sit there 100% safe without any further interaction that third restriction vanishes. Now any casual player with a carrier pilot and some isk can own a supercarrier. That is something I feel would be terrible for the game.
TeaDaze - come on. You grouse about someone putting words in your mouth and then you go and put words in mine.
NO proposal I've suggested (which have had several possible options) would ever provide "100%" security for the ship. That's simply untrue. Making it difficult to steal (as opposed to ridiculously easy as it is now) is not 100% secure at all. That's the garage alt route.
Even if a supercarrier could be anchored in such a way that it was entirely 'unstealable' it would still not be anything like 100% secure because it's floating there in space! How long do you think it would be before an enemy scout found it, reported it and then an enemy fleet showed up to take down the POS and kill it?
It's a couple dozen BILLION ISK TARGET! 100% Secure? I don't know of any system in 0.0 that is secure enough to prevent a determined strike like that from eventually succeeding. I have had to run large gate camps in the middle of NC space in heartland systems just because there was no one around to chase off the gang.
There would always be risk in leaving them unattended and, truth to be told, few would use the system after the first few got popped. They'd go right back to garage alts, I expect.
Me - I'd move mine around to keep that from happening at least easily, but that's also a fair bit of work.
If "every" or even a lot of cap pilots got them there would be a lot of lost supercarriers until people learned how best to hide them and even that would be tough.
100% security is not and has not ever been the goal. Just something that isn't ridiculous.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Zaiyo Modi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.31 13:07:00 -
[63]
This is a pointless thread.
OP should bother to sum up his points. This has been a waste of my time.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.01.31 14:50:00 -
[64]
Quote: Now, in the OP's world where you can park your supercarrier in a pos and have it sit there 100% safe without any further interaction that third restriction vanishes. Now any casual player with a carrier pilot and some isk can own a supercarrier. That is something I feel would be terrible for the game.
Tea should be the last one to talk about 100% security. You support use of garage alt, and have your super capital magically vanish into nothingness. That's somehow more risky then leaving it at a pos, that can be taken down, right? Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.01.31 17:01:00 -
[65]
I do not like this proposal. If you need to 'park it' buy supercapital alt, put it on same account as your main and if you need to fly it just log to that character. If you are opposed of alts then tough luck. Nothing can be done for you. You can always use capital ship maintenace bay btw if you are willing to 'park it' without pilot somewhere. It is as good as 'anchoring' it's just those with proper acsess in your corporation can take it.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.31 17:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Zaiyo Modi This is a pointless thread.
OP should bother to sum up his points. This has been a waste of my time.
Fair enough, here you go:
Supercapital ownership (that's supercarriers and titans) is borked.
Because these ships are extremely valuable and cannot be docked anyplace the current 'standard' for players who own them is to have an alt who logs out in them making a ship which is supposed to never be able to leave space or dock anywhere magically disappear. It is then 100% secure, immune to scouting or attack except when actually in use.
The only other realistic option is to have a character sit in it 100% of the time because of the ease of theft that leaving such ships at a POS entails. Because of 'bumping' and POS lack of security such ships are ludicrously easy to steal if left unattended. Being restricted to sitting forever in a ship which cannot dock that also cost you a zillion ISK doesn't allow for very enjoyable play and is a ludicrous 'limitation' as it almost entirely keeps the character from being able to play the game.
Security for such ships needs to be improved so that there are other options available. One might be to allow a character to 'anchor' a supercapital when not in use. Another might be to improve POS security (which needs to happen for lots of other reasons as well) and other might be to fix bumping, because right now it's ludicrous. Yet another might be to simply not allow logging out in such ships but that has other issues that need attending to (like what does a player do if they're on holiday or some such?)
To sum up:
Garage alts are bad because they are too good. Owning a supercap without one isn't practical at all (the risk is far too high) if unattended and gameplay suffers unreasonably if you elect to just never leave it. These things mean that some other option should be available to players who wish to fly one of these ships.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2010.02.02 07:35:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jerid Verges on 02/02/2010 07:39:58 The way I see it, the only arguements that people in favor of 'Alt pocketing' (As I like to call it, using another character to perform a houdini to protect a supercap) is that it is already 'Hard enough' to fly a super cap and that if people aren't ready to 'dedicate themselves to the super cap' they aren't 'fit to fly it'
Now is that an Elitist opinion or what? It should take support from OTHER players to own a supercap. It should be a TEAM effort.
Nobody is doubting that people who have super caps have their own worries and woes. But it is entirely out of the spirit of gaming to have such a massive cop out and you heard me right. That is some major crap that somebody can just make a ship disappear.
I don't think that it punishes super cap pilots to make their caps actually exist in the game when they're off. A newb pilot can dock in a station in empire, to protect his ship while he's offline. I don't see why a supercap pilot should be afforded the same luxury simply because he's willing to dedicate his money to an Alt. It's metagaming. There are risks and rewards to a supercap, and if CCP wanted it to be so easy to store supercaps, they'd be able to dock in stations. If supercap pilots don't want to be dedicated to flying their supercap 24/7 there should be meathods IN THE GAME to allow them to do this without having to warp their cap into a non-existant pocket of the time space continuum.
Alt-pocketing makes storing a supercap FAR too easy. It's like a legal exploit.
Quote: Now any casual player with a carrier pilot and some isk can own a supercarrier. That is something I feel would be terrible for the game.
This is a load of crap. If super cap piloting is anything like you describe it is then not ever casual pilot can fly one. Using Alt pocketing is exactly the same as storing a Supercap in a POS that is 100% safe, and I don't agree with either. Nothing that valuable should be 100% safe anywhere, whether that is behind a POS force field or in a non existant void.
At least storing a Supercap behind a POS would make sense.
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Gigiarc
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Posted - 2010.02.07 01:56:00 -
[68]
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