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Voddick
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Posted - 2010.01.23 02:21:00 -
[1]
Problem Overview: Macro mining is a problem that breaks down and undermines the player driven economy of EVE. Empire macro mining robs valuable income from new players who choose to make mining a career and encourage RMT from isk farmers.
Solution Overview: By populating 70% of all asteroid fields with ôore dustö that only contains 1m3 of ore, yet still displays on the overview page as actual ore, macro mining programs will cease to work. In order for this solution to work this ore dust would need to be easy to visually identify when looking at the asteroid field itself. This way, human miners can physically look at the fields and pick out the larger, non dust, asteroids to mine. This difference can be obvious, from making all actual asteroids the large variety, or by shrinking the ore dust to drone size.
Solution Mechanics: Macro miners use bookmarks to continually warp to a set distance from the field, then they rely on overview settings to warp to the nearest asteroid of choice. If the asteroid belt itself was 70% populated with fake 1m3 ore content then these macro miners would only make 3m3 of ore per laser cycle from hitting fake asteroids. This solution also couldnÆt be defeated by rapidly cycling the mining laser as the capacitor couldnÆt keep up with cycles.
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Tragu
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Posted - 2010.01.23 02:59:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tragu on 23/01/2010 03:00:18 This may work for current macro-ers, but not for others. If the 'Ore-dust' was the size of a drone, then when selecting show info on it would have the radius incredibly small, and if you just simply make the macro look at the value, you can find out weather the ore is 'ore dust' or an actual rock. So if this was implemented, it would not stop macro mining, but rather stop it until the macro-maker realises how to get his/her macro to see how large the 'roid is. Good idea but.
(made an alt to post on forums so main doesn't get flamed in game for some reason )
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Voddick
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Posted - 2010.01.23 03:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Vod**** on 23/01/2010 03:48:32 OK, so make them the size of normal roids but a different color.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2010.01.23 03:49:00 -
[4]
AFAIK all asteroids have the same sig radius regardless of size. (Any program that could read information from the client like that is a bot. Bots are not the same thing as macros.)
One of the better ideas... Though, the 'dust' should be procedurally placed, the server would only need to send a number for the client to reconstruct the belt. The dust would also need to be non-solid, like a gas cloud, to prevent collision issues.
Cautiously supporting.
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10/10: Where is your God now? |
Lyn Kishin
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Posted - 2010.01.23 05:41:00 -
[5]
Well as a human miner I use a survey scanner to target asteroids to mine, and this proposal would hopelessly clutter up (and lag to hell) the survey scanner, and basically make it useless, unless the survey scanner could filter out roid dust, and then you'd have the macro bots using that instead of the overview.
Sorry, but not supported in it's current form.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.23 07:32:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 23/01/2010 07:32:20
Originally by: Lyn Kishin Well as a human miner I use a survey scanner to target asteroids to mine, and this proposal would hopelessly clutter up (and lag to hell) the survey scanner, and basically make it useless, unless the survey scanner could filter out roid dust, and then you'd have the macro bots using that instead of the overview.
Sorry, but not supported in it's current form.
This.
And professional macro/bots can recognize different colors.
The problem are the professional macro used by isk sellers rings.
We are not speaking by something cobbled together in the basement by some computer savvy guy but by programs created by people that get paid for them and that are experts in the field.
Beside that any mechanism you want to implement should be reasonably acceptable by the people playing for fun or you would get the opposite effect, reducing the number of player miners.
The people working for isk sellers are paid for what they do and generally every one of them manage a good number of accounts using macro to do most of the work.
If the new mechanic require a check every few minutes (retarget a new set of roids after the macro as destroyed the current targets) the program will need only a warning on the lines of "I am down to the last set of roids", then the person managing of the macro group will enlarge the proper window and target a new set of asteroids for the macro to tur into minerals.
If you make the mechanic annoying enough the guy that is paid to do that for a 8 hours shift will still do it (maybe a tad slower, but that is all) while the player that pay to ave fun will stop doing something that is no more fun.
End result you reduce the player miners and not the isk farmer.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.23 07:50:00 -
[7]
@ OP I think your forgetting the obvious.
Just how many objects are you going to throw into the grid?
Can you say... Lag city?
Yup... thought so.
Not supported. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.01.23 09:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Drake Draconis @ OP I think your forgetting the obvious.
Just how many objects are you going to throw into the grid?
Can you say... Lag city?
Yup... thought so.
Not supported.
This. not supported.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2010.01.23 13:17:00 -
[9]
Wont' work.
Macros would just use an ore scanner and lock the largest quantity rocks. They would then continue to do as they've always done. The only thing it would accomplish is add more lag.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente Carpe Diem inc. Celestial Shadows
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Posted - 2010.01.23 18:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lyn Kishin Well as a human miner I use a survey scanner to target asteroids to mine, and this proposal would hopelessly clutter up (and lag to hell) the survey scanner, and basically make it useless, unless the survey scanner could filter out roid dust, and then you'd have the macro bots using that instead of the overview.
Sorry, but not supported in it's current form.
Ditto. Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
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Zahorite
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Posted - 2010.01.23 19:05:00 -
[11]
Personally I just don't see macro miners as a major issue. If you think in terms of eve economics they just aren't a huge problem, in fact they may be a benefit.
Right now macro miners only mine in high sec areas, meaning that they mostly mine pyrite and tritanium. Because of the recent changes with 0.0 space and the ability for any alliance to now mine ABC ores in any system in 0.0 there is an abundance of higher metals and a lack of pyrite and tritanium. In fact I've seen mining ops in low sec that are purposely going after scordite and veldspar because there just isn't enough down in 0.0 space.
A macro miner will never make as much isk as an active miner that joins a corp in 0.0 space, or even one that is in high sec since they will choose dense and massive over regular ores.
The removal of those macro miners would drastically increase pyrite and trit prices which would cause corps to focus their efforts on mining veld and scordite even though they are the less valuable ores simply because they need the ores to manufacture things.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2010.01.23 22:49:00 -
[12]
There are two ways macro miners could be stopped very quickly.
1) Pirates are supposed to be defending their roid belts, hence the pirate spawns. Increase the pirate spawns in proportion to the amount being mined and the repeativeness of the mining location - ie Pirates gain knowledge of "player" activites and begin to target specific players in specific areas. New players exempt from this mechanic.
2) Decrease the value of all high sec roid belts and make larger roid fields available via the exploration mechanism. Basically forcing human interaction in mining.
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Uronksur Suth
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Posted - 2010.01.23 22:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 23/01/2010 22:51:53
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Drake Draconis @ OP I think your forgetting the obvious.
Just how many objects are you going to throw into the grid?
Can you say... Lag city?
Yup... thought so.
Not supported.
This. not supported.
Same. What a nightmare.
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Voddick
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Posted - 2010.01.24 07:26:00 -
[14]
Ok, proposal retracted on bases of feasibility. Instead of focusing on one idea, IÆd like to turn this thread into a discussion area for solution suggestions. So far some smart ideas have been put forward and I would like to keep this discussion going.
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Spacer X
Xpress Yourself
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Posted - 2010.01.25 07:47:00 -
[15]
Macro Miners "helping" the economy is just plain ignorant and probably the voice of a macro user. Macro mining needs to stop because not everyone starts out in 0.0 space.
They need to flag miners who warp back and forth to bookmarks for hours. No miner will continually travel back and forth for hours on end. The macros have changed to fly under the radar by setting bookmarks in different belts. This breaks up their travel giving the appearance of someone going to a new belt. Belt rats with more jamming devices would just slow them down. I made a point to mine roids macros were hitting. As soon as the roids disappeared, they were hitting other roids.
There are taletell signs of a macro, but CCP will not end macro mining since they are constantly fixing new features they bring out. Macros are in pretty much every system in high sec and CCP has no interest in stopping them. Otherwise they would. I recently came back to the game after quitting in hopes they would stop cheating or take an interest in it and attempt to slow it down. The only way CCP will take interest in it is if IT or Goons take an interest in it. We know IT is dev ran, so if macro mining is to stop, Goons will need to employ it. The only time CCP takes real interest in ANYTHING is if Goons are doing it, everyone knows that.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente Carpe Diem inc. Celestial Shadows
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Posted - 2010.01.26 00:03:00 -
[16]
A note on bookmarks,
Any smart miner also uses bookmarks -- carefully planning his/her attack on a belt from pre-set positions that ensure that the lasers cover every last rock.
No proposal that relies on detecting bookmarks is reasonable.
Additionally, legitimate miners will fly back and forth in a high-traffic system with lots of can flippers. So that idea is of marginal use as well.
I don't like macro miners holding down the price of ore I could be mining more profitably, but I have not yet seen any "solution" that didn't take the fun out of being a legitimate miner or target legitimate miners along with the macros. Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Aleena Doran
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Posted - 2010.01.26 11:46:00 -
[17]
How about smarter belt pirates to cause grief to macro miners? Pirates which perferentially target large/valuable ships (hulks), use warp scramblers and engage drones would make life difficult for a macro I think. Since they target hulks they would let beginners play freely. Genuine human players should be able to respond to rats appropriately, or if needed ask for help in local. I'm not suggesting high dps rats. Rather low dps + warp scrambling capability.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2010.01.26 21:11:00 -
[18]
Maybe we are going about this the wrong way.
When CCP looked at the RMT problem that is present on pretty much every MMO, they implemented a novel solution... a CCP certified way of meeting the same needs, thus turning a 'problem' into a profitable mechanic.
Why not do the same thing with macros? Produce an API (better yet, a mini virtual machine, and make them code in assembly. limited cycles per real time clock) that runs inside the client and allows scripts to operate. Make these scripts packagable items that can be traded on the market (or at least contracts) thus clever writer can make money selling designs to other players.
Playing field gets leveled and they would create a whole new market type.
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SE Serion
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Posted - 2010.02.16 18:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: SE Serion on 16/02/2010 18:36:27 Just to get rid off any mis conceptions on the matter,
You will never get rid off macro, bots or hacks, NEVER... !!! Every file and program is no more then 1's and 0's and can be backwards engineered, and will be for as long as there are nerds and bored students. "Just Because We Can !!!!" You can make it harder, use encryptions put in scanners and so on... This will cost money, need up-keeping and possibly make things slower. Do you want to pay more to play just to make it harder to macro mine? or ask yourself "Do I need more lagg, just to prevent a basement nerd from marco mining?", people that get payed for it will just work around the problem anyway. Any solution, how simple it may seem, CAN be very complicated, or take a lot of time to implement.
And now oke, say we get rid of ALL the macro miners. "Do I really want to pay 2 times more for my pvp ships?" I don't, do you?.
And what is the problem? Are macro miners really making the game less fun for you? Or are you jealous that they make more isk being afk then you?
You can do all the posting and crying in the world. That will not change how people are and that there are macro miners. Get used to it and move on... (same thing with anti-war rallies, "DON'T BE ANTI-WAR, BE PRO-PEACE !!!!!")
SE Serion,
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