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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.21 18:51:00 -
[781]
Would adjusting signature resolution of hybrids not make them more powerful yet unique and fit with their style of play? A long range weapon would generally be designed to be accurate at that range so a 10% or so reduction in signature resolution across the board combined with their traditionally crappy tracking would give them more powerful specialized roles based on a higher probability of getting better hits would it not?
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Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
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Posted - 2010.05.21 19:20:00 -
[782]
Originally by: Red Raider Would adjusting signature resolution of hybrids not make them more powerful yet unique and fit with their style of play? A long range weapon would generally be designed to be accurate at that range so a 10% or so reduction in signature resolution across the board combined with their traditionally crappy tracking would give them more powerful specialized roles based on a higher probability of getting better hits would it not?
A signature resolution bonus *is* a tracking boost. There is no difference between the two.
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.21 23:18:00 -
[783]
Edited by: Red Raider on 21/05/2010 23:22:54 Edited by: Red Raider on 21/05/2010 23:21:02 Edited by: Red Raider on 21/05/2010 23:19:38 Edited by: Red Raider on 21/05/2010 23:19:03
Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat
Originally by: Red Raider Would adjusting signature resolution of hybrids not make them more powerful yet unique and fit with their style of play? A long range weapon would generally be designed to be accurate at that range so a 10% or so reduction in signature resolution across the board combined with their traditionally crappy tracking would give them more powerful specialized roles based on a higher probability of getting better hits would it not?
A signature resolution bonus *is* a tracking boost. There is no difference between the two.
Thats not exactly accurate. Signature radius vs signature resolution is a much simplified version of weapons accuracy(there was a dev post on this but I can't find it).
If you take a regular rifle and bench mount it the ammo will not hit the exact same spot every time its fired. This is EVE's signature resolution.
If you have a 1 foot diameter round target the closer you are to that target the easier it is to hit it as long as its not moving. Get close enough and you are very likely to strike dead center very often. Move it out 100 yards and if the rifle has a signature resolution of 1.25 feet @100 yards then it will miss the 1 foot diameter target 1/5 of the time regardless of the target moving or not.
If I find the dev blog I will post it but it actually gave the above example showing shot patterns on round targets. This is partially why the theorized formula for gun tracking doesn't seem to work properly at long ranges. I would say this is a good guess as (limited) testing shows it to not function accurately but its on the EVE wiki and I am not opposed to being wrong on this as it was a long time ago.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
IE within optimal a Rohk shooting at a frigate with zero transversal has the same chance to hit the frigate at 10 km's and 100km's. That same frigate moving at a speed that would out track the guns at 10 km's but not at 100km's would still be incredibly difficult to hit at 100km's despite the tracking numbers being present to do so in theory anyways. The reason why is that the dominant figure is transversal speed, range to target, and turret tracking. These generate a sum that largely dominates the result of the equation while signature resolution / sig radius is occasionally lopsided before the shot was even fired(Armageddon, Tempest, and Typhoon all have sub 400m sigs not to mention everything smaller).
A 10% boost to signature resolution would result in a tracking boost so minuscule as to be irrelevant but better shot quality. The idea being that the likelyhood of hitting would remain virtually unchanged because the values that are dominant would remain unchanged but the resulting number when measured against the randomly generated X value would be higher when it does hit.
In reality what they need to do is completely redesign combat so that weapons like beams, hybrids, and projectiles continue on indefinitely(to 250km's anyways) but highlight tracking and signature resolution(accuracy) as important traits that separate rails from the others but that's not going to happen. I digress(after causing a dev to have a nightmare).
Freaking automatic spell correction.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.05.22 02:48:00 -
[784]
Edited by: Goumindong on 22/05/2010 02:55:23 Edited by: Goumindong on 22/05/2010 02:48:51
Originally by: Red Raider A 10% boost to signature resolution would result in a tracking boost so minuscule as to be irrelevant but better shot quality. The idea being that the likelyhood of hitting would remain virtually unchanged because the values that are dominant would remain unchanged but the resulting number when measured against the randomly generated X value would be higher when it does hit.
No. It would not. Turret hit quality is entirely determined by the hit chance and the only thing that signature resolution does is provide the baseline for a linear modification of the targets speed to be plugged into the tracking formula based on target signature radius.
Furthermore, The tracking formula weights percentage changes in signature resolution the same as percentage changes in tracking. If you reduce the signature resolution by 10% its the exact same as increasing the tracking by 10%
E.G.
Tracking part of the to hit formula
.5^{[(Turret Res * Speed) / (Range * Tracking * transversal)]^2}
Modify turret res by -10%
.5^{[(.9 * Turret Res * Speed) / (Range * Tracking * transversal)]^2}
some basic algebra {multiply by 9/10 = divide by 10/9) turns that into
.5^{[(Turret Res * Speed) / (Range * 1.111 * Tracking * transversal)]^2}
Edit: also whoever did that hit quality formula on the eve-wiki has it wrong.
Eve crops at .5 and 1.49 not at .5 and 1.5. Actual formula is
(hit chance +.99)/2 = avg non wrecking hit quality
(hit chance - .01)[(hit chance +.99)/2]+0.03 = final expected DPS for all hit chances > .01 --
A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance |
Grut
The Protei
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Posted - 2010.05.22 09:23:00 -
[785]
Ideas for buffing rails;
1. Decrease rail rof by 50% and increase damage to compensate, adjust other stats to keep the same.. Gives an 8 ish second rof with 3 dmg mods. Projectiles still have 2x volley advantage. Fixes ammo consumption.
Dps Lasers > Hybrids > Projectiles Volley Lasers < Hybrids < Projectiles
2. Create 2 lines of ammo, with the same damage at each optimal, one 4:1 Therm to kin + tracking one 4:1 Kin to therm - cap use.
3. + 10% damage mod.
4. Drop Hybrid reload to 5 secs - important for m hybrids, hybrid ammo doesn't have the falloff flexibility of projectiles.
^^ picking a couple of them would work. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.24 18:11:00 -
[786]
Originally by: Goumindong ]No. It would not. Turret hit quality is entirely determined by the hit chance and the only thing that signature resolution does is provide the baseline for a linear modification of the targets speed to be plugged into the tracking formula based on target signature radius.
Actually I don't think anyone truly knows how its all calculated so saying I am wrong and the wiki is wrong and you are right for a calculation that done by a server is idiotic because you don't know that either. In fact your calculation makes little sense because it crosses check sums for no logical reason.
The Wiki calculation makes sense because the check sums determine:
1)if your turrets can track the target 2)once it's determined wether you can even track the target a hit quality is generated based on sig radius vs sig resolution 3)applies range(optimal, falloff) to damage output
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
You calculation simply adds turret resolution when there isn't anything to support that resolution is part of the initial tracking check sum at all. If this were the case then a frigate shooting at a nano'd BS would likely still hit but that doesn't happen. In fact your formula would result in small guns have a massive damage boost against larger ships due to really high hit quality. As for the rest I don't know since you didn't actually post a formula.
Your formula checks stuff for no reason. Why would the tracking check include signature radius and resolution at all? It doesn't(shouldn't) make your guns move faster or slower so adding that to the formula is pointless and actually counter productive as it can be gamed and makes balance extremely difficult. You track or you don't track first. That number determines the rest of the formula and for good reason. In fact the whole concept that it's considered is kinda ridiculous from a logical standpoint alone.
Feel free to post a link to the dev that spilled your formula though. Though knowing CCP something so stupid as to include signature into tracking wouldn't be a shock at all.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.24 18:36:00 -
[787]
Originally by: Goumindong You're giving the ships extra effective modules slots, just as you can use the range bonus to tank as Liang describes you use the lock range bonus for the same thing.
Megas, Hypes, and Rokhs are all tight fits (CPU/Grid-wise). Allowing them to ditch a sensor booster (netting 1 MW and 10 tf) is not going to allow a ship to add any terribly exciting modules. Similarly, neither the decreased need of a tracking computer (gives 1 MW and 35 tf) or a tracking enhancer (1 MW and 15 tf) might not even free up enough for an additional T2 armor hardener. These "freed" slots will likely be filled with the same modules.
These are not earth shattering changes. They simply give railguns a niche across the board.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.24 19:31:00 -
[788]
Originally by: Red Raider
Actually I don't think anyone truly knows how its all calculated so saying I am wrong and the wiki is wrong and you are right for a calculation that done by a server is idiotic because you don't know that either. In fact your calculation makes little sense because it crosses check sums for no logical reason.
The formula was derived from exhaustive testing by a great many people. I've personally tested its predictive powers, and they averaged correctly every time. I'd say that it may not be exactly how its calculated, but its accurate within .1% or so. And really, all of your other concerns are easily optimized away.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.24 20:31:00 -
[789]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Red Raider
Actually I don't think anyone truly knows how its all calculated so saying I am wrong and the wiki is wrong and you are right for a calculation that done by a server is idiotic because you don't know that either. In fact your calculation makes little sense because it crosses check sums for no logical reason.
The formula was derived from exhaustive testing by a great many people. I've personally tested its predictive powers, and they averaged correctly every time. I'd say that it may not be exactly how its calculated, but its accurate within .1% or so. And really, all of your other concerns are easily optimized away.
-Liang
Which formula the Wiki one I posted or the tracking formula Guam posted? I think the wiki one is pretty accurate myself which is why I was saying a sig res boost would bring up the DPS of hybrids within a nitch that makes them good as a sniper role or at bombarding slow moving or stationary targets but still suck at tracking.
Originally by: Bagehi Possible. I seem to recall one of big nerfs to drones was messing with weapons signature resolution, thus preventing medium/heavy drones from ripping apart smaller ships. However, the bulk of the targets sniper ships are shooting are as large as or larger than the sniper ship. This is usually the very reason they are at sniper range.
While true it would still make rails more likely to have higher quality shots than other weapons. Another side effect is they would be slightly better at fighting smaller ships.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.24 20:38:00 -
[790]
Originally by: Red Raider
Which formula the Wiki one I posted or the tracking formula Guam posted? I think the wiki one is pretty accurate myself which is why I was saying a sig res boost would bring up the DPS of hybrids within a nitch that makes them good as a sniper role or at bombarding slow moving or stationary targets but still suck at tracking.
In your post, you only referenced half of the dps formula - the chance to hit. The quality of those hits is determined solely by the percent chance to hit. At 50% chance to hit you will deal (IIRC) 39.505% of your EFT DPS. At 100% chance to hit you will deal 103% of your EFT DPS (due to wrecking shots).
Quote: While true it would still make rails more likely to have higher quality shots than other weapons. Another side effect is they would be slightly better at fighting smaller ships.
It would do this by virtue of making them have much higher tracking than anyone else.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.24 23:07:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Red Raider
Which formula the Wiki one I posted or the tracking formula Guam posted? I think the wiki one is pretty accurate myself which is why I was saying a sig res boost would bring up the DPS of hybrids within a nitch that makes them good as a sniper role or at bombarding slow moving or stationary targets but still suck at tracking.
In your post, you only referenced half of the dps formula - the chance to hit. The quality of those hits is determined solely by the percent chance to hit. At 50% chance to hit you will deal (IIRC) 39.505% of your EFT DPS. At 100% chance to hit you will deal 103% of your EFT DPS (due to wrecking shots).
Yes, but tracking and accuracy are indeed separate. The change might affect chance to hit a little but tracking would still be a primary player and you could tune it downwards a little to keep chance to hit the same. Imagine it like alpha on arty except hybrid users want to slow things down or stop them to bring their accuracy to full effect(or just get a hell of a long ways away). Hybrids would suffer from a sharper hit quality curve than other weapons this way. It would give them a definite flavor and tactical role that is fitting IMHO since the close up support for both Gallante and Caldari is done via missiles/drones.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.25 00:09:00 -
[792]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/05/2010 00:11:30
Originally by: Red Raider Yes, but tracking and accuracy are indeed separate.
Not REALLY. Let's take a look at the formula:
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
Lets simplify this a bit. The part of the formula we really care about: (Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius)
A bit friendlier notation... = Transv / (Range * Tracking) * SigRes / Sig Radius
Note that the equations aren't bounded by any piecewise functions (such as min/max): = Tranv * Sig Res / (Range * Tracking * Sig Radius)
Holding Transv, Range, and Sig Radius constant (as one would when seeing how the formula would be different for the same shot...) = C * Sig Res / Tracking
Of course the value of C is immaterial since it would be the same whether you had higher tracking or lower sig res. And, this makes tons of sense since high tracking and low sig resolutions both contribute to more hits. So really lowering Sig Res (400 -> 350 or something) is exactly equivalent to an equivalent increase in tracking.
And since hit quality is determined solely based on hit chance, we can see that increasing sig res would have no more effect on hit quality than an increase in tracking.
Hope this helps.
-Liang
Ed: Going back and reading Goum's post a bit closer: he's right. This is just another way to show it. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.25 17:17:00 -
[793]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/05/2010 00:38:26
Originally by: Red Raider Yes, but tracking and accuracy are indeed separate.
Not REALLY. Let's take a look at the formula:
GRRR Looking at it you're right. God I hate this broken system.
If it was broken into check separate check sums not only could you lower server load but you could make a more realistic system that would give hybrids an accuracy nitch like I was thinking.
Instead of the current equations have something like:
ChanceToHit1 = (Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking)) ChanceToHit2 = ((Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius)
If it's a hit then:
Damage = ((Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius) + ((Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)
Misses wouldn't do as much calculation. I guess this is a simplified version of what I would prefer though as I would prefer no range(up to 250km) where sig res and radius are calculated properly based on distance rather than an object being the same size regardless of how far or close it is. Then gunnery would have an additional primary mechanic to balance the three separate systems with.
Each system with strengths and weaknesses but adding accuracy as a strength to Hybrids(rails at least) would make them more viable while the others could be weaker in this catagory. Lasers the weakest because they are pretty much the best weapon system in the game and because from a story standpoint the Minmatar were once renowned for the quality of their machinery.
Anyways, that ain't gonna happen.
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Zachary Sikorsky
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Posted - 2010.05.26 11:23:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Red Raider
... Instead of the current equations have something like:
ChanceToHit1 = (Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking)) ChanceToHit2 = ((Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius)
If it's a hit then:
Damage = ((Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius) + ((Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff) ... Misses wouldn't do as much calculation.
Well, IF statements aren't nearly as efficient as people might thing when it comes down to cpu cycles. It might just be that putting it all in one formula actually performs faster than checking to se if it is a hit. But as you said - it is not as if it is going to happen anyway.
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Ramzah
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Posted - 2010.07.31 13:17:00 -
[795]
+1
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Altaica Amur
The Elliance
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Posted - 2010.08.05 21:20:00 -
[796]
I was curious how this thread was going, I see that Goumindong hasn't ceased to try and derail things. I still support some sort of change to rails either along the lines suggested or as part of a broader effort to change hybrids as a whole, blasters aren't exactly doing that great either.
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Gecko O'Bac
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.08.06 05:45:00 -
[797]
Not really supporting the specific idea, but something must be done... I agree that the stats on rails themselves appear to be ok, but the ships that use them are lacking, especially the caldari ones. So either fix the ships or the weapons...
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Soleil Fournier
UNFAITHFUL SHADOWS Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2010.08.06 22:02:00 -
[798]
Damage on the Rails needs to be improved, especially for Mediums and smalls.
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.08.07 00:33:00 -
[799]
Id say 1 way to boost the rails is if they had medium dps medium alpha, but were able to hit from much further ranges hten everything else. Currently this is semi true. Also rail guns should do mabye 5% damage penetration cause the rounds are moving at portions of the speed of light. It prolly would go throw a sheild. Also railguns should do kentic and explosive damage not heat and kentic. Finally the rounds are way to big. Rail gun rounds can be a fraction of the size of a projectile round and still do the same damage.
Now for blasters they need to do the most dps in game. like 2X better than everything else. they also should have a slight tracking bonus. also blasters should do therm and kinetic damage cause there more likely plasma based. they should still be EXTREME close range.
Both should only need to reload in 5 seconds cause they don't need as much caution as projectile rounds. also they should have a kinda large cycle time cause both need a lot of energy to funchtion. thats my .2isk Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.07 03:32:00 -
[800]
Not supported. I am all gunnery and drones. Railguns are fine. Blasters need fixed. And no Caldarie rail ships dont need more PG becouse there shield tanks. Gallent get more PG becouse are armor tanks suck more PG away from the rails then shield tanks. aka thats why Caldari have more cpu on there ships for that tank. So they are already balnaced gank vers tank as they are. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
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phantomshura
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Posted - 2010.08.07 08:51:00 -
[801]
/signed rails need a buff, blasters need a uber buff and some gallente shipd cough*diemost*cough need a light buff.
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Sanguine Belroth
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Posted - 2010.08.12 14:00:00 -
[802]
I support. Plz make rails better.
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Alvar Kesh
Ealurian Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.08.13 12:32:00 -
[803]
supported
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:01:00 -
[804]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Also rail guns should do mabye 5% damage penetration cause the rounds are moving at portions of the speed of light. It prolly would go throw a sheild.
I would love for my rail guns to throw shields. Then I could use them to remote repair people.
Anyway, on the damage penetration bit, since lasers are moving at 100% the speed of light by definition, should they have 100% damage penetration?
Anyway, despite the dumb guy quoted above, rails need love. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Dhaul
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:54:00 -
[805]
Edited by: Dhaul on 13/08/2010 19:54:11 Supported, I'm sick of crappy hybrid weapons
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.08.14 03:34:00 -
[806]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Also rail guns should do mabye 5% damage penetration cause the rounds are moving at portions of the speed of light. It prolly would go throw a sheild.
I would love for my rail guns to throw shields. Then I could use them to remote repair people.
Anyway, on the damage penetration bit, since lasers are moving at 100% the speed of light by definition, should they have 100% damage penetration?
Anyway, despite the dumb guy quoted above, rails need love.
I just suck at spelling. But railguns slugs actully have high mass. thats the reason for tugnstan. its Very dense. lasers have 0 mass though so they wouldnt perice through. Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
Zorok
LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2010.08.14 05:45:00 -
[807]
I support giving a buff to railguns..They really need a boost..
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Arkanor
Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.08.16 19:47:00 -
[808]
Support doing *something* to fix rails and blasters.
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Genghis Prime
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Posted - 2010.08.17 21:38:00 -
[809]
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Liberal Sparrow
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Posted - 2010.08.18 19:36:00 -
[810]
When I made a character as Gal, many gal guys were beside of me. But now, Most of them transfered to Min and Amarr include me.
Now Gal is absolutely bad. Why someone don't agree this? Even if you could use all guns and ships, you choose Gal?
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