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Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.06.26 15:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Im trying to make a calc sheet that calculates materials etc for every bpo. I've searched a lot for the formula, but im getting conflicting results. Mostly the problem is 1 unit less or more than what the game shows on assembly line screen. So i assume my problem is the rounding of the formula. Anyone knows how exactly eve rounds the formula. Does it round every waste type (me, skill, station etc) separately or after they all add up? Does it round the raw waste factor or after the base material is multiplied? And what type of rounding it uses for each waste? According to what type it uses you get different results. I have used the formulas already posted on many threads but they give wrong results.
If anyone knows a lot about this, it would be nice to post here, or even a ccp post. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
470
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Posted - 2012.06.26 16:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Waste is the waste % included in the SDE
if (me<0) { wasteage=(waste/100)*(1-me); } else { wasteage=(waste/(me+1))/100; }
round(perfect+(perfect*wasteage)) for the waste specific to the blueprint round(perfect+(perfect*wasteage)+(perfect*(0.25-(0.05*pe)))) for the waste including your PE waste.
For the base materials only. Rounding is if <.5 to the integer below, otherwise up.
When you add in the extra materials, they're unaffected by ME waste, and only affected by your PE waste if they're also in the base materials.
That's the formula that's being used in my BP calculator (check the javascript if you don't believe me ) and I've not found a mistake with it (since the last one was corrected, shortly after the first release).
The materials for the drone damage amp II are wrong in the SDE. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.06.26 16:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Rounding is if <.5 to the integer below, otherwise up.
By this you mean a normal rounding? 0.5 becomes 1, 0.4 becomes 0?
Ok i will test it. Although i think i already tested this formula and gave me conflicts. And where do you put the waste from assembly line, like rapid equipment assembly in a pos? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
470
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Posted - 2012.06.26 16:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
0.49999999 becomes 0. 0.5 becomes 1.
As for rapid assembly arrays, I'm not sure. I'd expect it's applied before the rounding. I've never dealt with them however.
If you do find a blueprint that conflicts with the calculator on my site, let me know, and I'll have a quick dig at it. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.06.26 16:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ok check tracking link i bleuprint, a weird blueprint having extra and raw materials same, so you have to apply the pe skill. According to your formula with a PE skill of 1 and on a station line the isogen requirement is 3. But when you go in game and try to build it, it says 2. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
470
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Posted - 2012.06.26 16:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
You do treat them separately. Handle base materials (rounding), then extra materials(rounding), and then add the two together.
By the /looks/ of things, you only change the base materials, with the rapid equipment assembly array. But it's not something I've tried. and the slightly faster build time(about 3.2 hours in a day) isn't worth the additional waste for me.
tracking link 1: http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/2103/0/1/0/5 FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
82
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Posted - 2012.06.26 17:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
eve doesn't round. it truncates. anything 0.99 gets truncated to 0. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
790
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Posted - 2012.06.26 18:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
When you have Production Efficiency 5, you no longer see [Perfect] on BPO (no loss from incompetence).
Total Material = ROUND(Base Material * (1.25 + Base Waste / (1 + Material Level) - Production Efficiency Skill * 0.05))
Base amounts can be found from a database dump or Base Waste = Waste shown on an unresearched BPO Base Material = ROUND(Material amount shown on an unresearched BPO / (1 + Base Waste))
Perfect Material Level = FLOOR(Largest Material Count / ((1 + Base Waste) / (2 * Base Waste))) for 10% base waste BPO: Perfect Material Level = Largest Material Count / 5.5 and drop the fraction (don't round) for 5% base waste BPO: Perfect Material Level = Largest Material Count / 10.5 and drop the fraction (don't round)
Typically a material level of 20 or less is adequate, however some items like many small rigs don't require any research to be perfect, as they use low material counts with less than 0.5 units of waste. |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 18:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Even rounding separately has issues when you use rapid assembly line, the formula looks correct cause only difference is 1 unit, the rounding is the issue. Assembly line waste do seem to apply to extra materials according to another thread i read, and doing my own calculations. I dont really mind if rapid production is worth it, i just wanna find out the correct formula.
My problem is how rounding is applied to all those factors. Does assembly line waste round together with something else (like skill waste) or alone? Have tweaked formula so much but i cant seem to find whats wrong with the rounding. Unless ofc there is a hidden IF statement in the formula.
I have my doubts about truncating, i think it will reduce minerals a lot. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
790
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Posted - 2012.06.26 18:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sorry, I missed the part about assembly line multiplier. Reading comprehension for the lose.
I've never bothered with a Rapid Assembly Array, so I'll have to buy one and check when I get home this evening.
I suspect that the multiplier is on the base amount, so it gets rounded with everything thing else (only one rounding is done on the final result), but I'll have to check this theory when I get home. |
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Dave stark
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
83
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Posted - 2012.06.26 18:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lek Arthie wrote:Even rounding separately has issues when you use rapid assembly line, the formula looks correct cause only difference is 1 unit, the rounding is the issue. Assembly line waste do seem to apply to extra materials according to another thread i read, and doing my own calculations. I dont really mind if rapid production is worth it, i just wanna find out the correct formula. My problem is how rounding is applied to all those factors. Does assembly line waste round together with something else (like skill waste) or alone? Have tweaked formula so much but i cant seem to find whats wrong with the rounding. Unless ofc there is a hidden IF statement in the formula. I have my doubts about truncating, i think it will reduce minerals a lot.
might truncate up, not down for manufacturing... i know it truncates down for mining. |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
i think my problem might be how production line waste is applied, anyone knows exactly how you put that in the formula? |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
This should answer your questions: community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1561558 |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 18:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Yea i already read your post Lutz, but i still cant get it to work.
Where exactly do you put the production waste factor from the assembly line? for each material (raw and extra), counting also waste from PE skill, and how do you round the decimals? |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lek Arthie wrote:Yea i already read your post Lutz, but i still cant get it to work.
Where exactly do you put the production waste factor from the assembly line? for each material (raw and extra), counting also waste from PE skill, and how do you round the decimals?
Yes. Production Waste from rapids are applied to raw materials AND extra - if, and only if the material is in both sections!
Check out the 12th post. It also describes where to "put" the waste factor from the rapid
Quote:Now for the Rapid Equipment Assembly Array, which has an material modifier of 120%. It is common 'knowledge' that only raw materials are affected by the baseMaterialMultiplier. So my Pyerite quantity should be 6,800 * (1.2 + (baseWaste / (1 + ME))) = 6,800 * (1.2 + 0.1 / (1 + 52)) = ROUND(8172.83) = 8,173
and
Quote:The Pyerite requirement is 9,573 instead of the pre-calculated 8,173. The missing 1,400 units come from the production waste of the extra material Pyerite: 7,000 * 0.2 = 1,400
For this kind of math, rounding is always done at the end. It's the accounting rounding like described above (or in DIN 1333).
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Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ok using your math can you check out tracking link i blueprint again? Using a rapid assembly line and comparing the factory quote with pe skill 1 and 5 i get:
lvl 1 pe mexallon 4 <---- this is incorrect, in-game quote shows 5 isogen 3 <---- correct
lvl 5 pe mexallon 4 <---- correct isogen 2 <--- correct |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
473
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
One thing I'd certainly recommend:
If you're building stuff, up your Production Efficiency. It helps a great deal. 5 is ideal, 4 is ok. But at least get it to 3. Even without any implants or remaps, it's only 14 and a half hours or so. Saving 15% of the base materials is worth that, certainly. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 19:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lek Arthie wrote:Ok using your math can you check out tracking link i blueprint again? Using a rapid assembly line and comparing the factory quote with pe skill 1 and 5 i get:
lvl 1 pe mexallon 4 <---- this is incorrect, in-game quote shows 5 isogen 3 <---- correct
lvl 5 pe mexallon 4 <---- correct isogen 2 <--- correct
Oh dear ... I just had to think (!) of how to write a sql :( Four months without databases changes a man *sigh*
But:
For Mexallon the raw base value is 2, for extra it is 1.
Your skill waste for Production Eff I is 1.20 (1.25 - (0.05 * 1)) The production waste for the rapid array is also 1.2 (20% more) I asume you use a ME 0 blueprint
So with prod eff 1: raw materials: 2 + (1.2 * 1.2 + (0.1 / (1 +0))) = 3.08 extra materials: 1 + (1.2 * 1.2) = 1.44
ROUND(3.08 + 1.44) = ROUND(4.52) = 5
With PE 5 it would be raw: 2 + (1.0 + 1.2 + (0.1/ (1 + 0))) = 2.6 extra: 1 + (1.0 + 1.2) = 1.2
ROUND(2.6 + 1.2) = ROUND(3.8) = 4
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
474
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Posted - 2012.06.27 20:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
bah. looks like my calculator is rounding a little too early then.
Not a major deal, as production efficiency is a skill that serious manufacturers train up quickly, but still something I'll need to look at. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
I suppose you mean this
raw materials: 2 * (1.2 * 1.2 + (0.1 / (1 +0))) = 3.08 extra materials: 1 * (1.2 * 1.2) = 1.44
for both the equations, cause thats the only way i can find your results.
But still if i use this formula then the isogen requirement is wrong. With that formula and using rapid assembly line:
pe 1 isogen 3 <---- correct
pe 5 isogen 3 <----- thats wrong, it should be 2.
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 20:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lek Arthie wrote:I suppose you mean this raw materials: 2 * (1.2 * 1.2 + (0.1 / (1 +0))) = 3.08 extra materials: 1 * (1.2 * 1.2) = 1.44 for both the equations, cause thats the only way i can find your results. But still if i use this formula then the isogen requirement is wrong. With that formula and using rapid assembly line: pe 1 isogen 3 <---- correct pe 5 isogen 3 <----- thats wrong, it should be 2.
Yes, of course I meant to multiply.
And, yes you are right, the math does not fit this way, because it's like
ROUND(raw) + ROUND(extra) and not ROUND(raw + extra) :( sorry for that - I should've checked my code the first way
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Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 21:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you round them separately then mexallon is again wrong (just like before).... Its 4 instead of 5.
I dont know what is wrong, the formula seems to be just fine, i dont understand why this blueprint is so weird. |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lek Arthie wrote:If you round them separately then mexallon is again wrong (just like before).... Its 4 instead of 5.
I dont know what is wrong, the formula seems to be just fine, i dont understand why this blueprint is so weird. You sure, that you get 5 with Prod Eff 1? I ran the numbers and got this quote: [pre] |============================================================| | NAME | REQUIRED | MISSING | DMG/JOB | WASTE | |============================================================| | Raw Material (4x) | | | | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | Isogen | 2 | 3 | 100.00% | 50.0% | | Mexallon | 3 | 4 | 100.00% | 33.3% | | Pyerite | 3,644 | 4,214 | 100.00% | 37.5% | | Tritanium | 4,394 | 5,081 | 100.00% | 37.5% | |------------------------------------------------------------| | Extra Material (4x) | | | | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | Isogen | 1 | 3 | 100.00% | | | Mexallon | 1 | 4 | 100.00% | | | Pyerite | 570 | 4,214 | 100.00% | | | Tritanium | 687 | 5,081 | 100.00% | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | Skill (1x) | | | | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | Industry | 1 | 1 | | | |------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote for: Tracking Link I, Material Efficiency Level: 0 Production Efficiency Skill: I, Production Slot Modifier: 1.2[/pre]
edit: DAMN YOU NEW BOARD!!!! for not having a PRE!!! - just quote and copy n' paste the bill of materials into a notepad ...
can you provide a screen shot of your BOM? |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yes i tested in game. Using a rapid assembly line. With production efficiency 1 you get 5 mexallon and 3 isogen. Where do you got that quote? I tested on test server, but i dont think they have changed anything specifically on that blueprint. |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lek Arthie wrote:Yes i tested in game. Using a rapid assembly line. With production efficiency 1 you get 5 mexallon and 3 isogen. Where do you got that quote? I tested on test server, but i dont think they have changed anything specifically on that blueprint. The quote comes from my private programs. If you are sure about the 5, then I'll take a look into it on Singularity myself and erect a POS there and test this issue. I spent quite a while on the code, so I'd like it to be right :) |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yes i'm pretty sure its 5 mexallon, i checked it many times trying to figure out what is wrong.
If you can test it on test server with a PE level 1 char, please do and post here your results. Yea i want the correct formula also, 1 mexallon might not be that much on this blueprint but i wonder if the formula gives wrong results on other more expensive materials. |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Also note that if you round the raw and extra separately then the materials of lockbreaker blueprint are wrong. Only if you round them together you get correct results. So maybe the problem with tracking link is not mexallon, but isogen which should be 2 instead of 3. (using rapid assembly with a level 5 PE skill). |
Lek Arthie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.07.01 21:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Any chance for a CCP help on this issue? |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
290
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 18:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Finally I got it, but I'm not pleased with the outcome :(
As a preface and reminder. There are three types of waste, which have to be applied to the base material quantity given in the database:
Material Waste: The base waste factor of every item is modified by the ME level of the blueprint. The formula for ME < 0 is MW = wasteFactor * (1 GÇô ME), for all other it is MW = wasteFactor * (1 / (ME + 1)). With the "perfect ME level" there is no additional waste. The wasteFactor is found in the invBlueprintTypes table of the database dumb. The number provided there should be considered in percent. So a waste factor of 10 equals 10%.
Skill Waste: The base skill waste for lack of knowledge is 25%. Each level of Production Efficiency reduces the waste by 5%. The formula is SW = 1.25 GÇô (0.05 * PE level). With perfect PE, there is no additional waste.
Production Waste: Each assembly line has a material multiplier. Usually it is 1 (one), but for some assembly lines (Rapid Equipment, Advanced Small/Medium/Large Ship Assembly) it is higher. The formula is easy: PW = baseMaterialMultiplier The baseMaterialMultiplier can be found in the ramAssemblyLineTypes of the data dump.
IGÇÖve already showed in [1], that both raw and extra materials are subject to waste. Raw materials are affected by all three types of waste. Extra materials only by skill and production waste. To determine the effective material quantity the formula looks like this:
Quantity = ROUND(rawMaterialQuantity * (SW * PW + MW) + baseExtraMaterialQuantity * SW * PW)
The rawMaterialQuantity is derived from the quantity to be found in the invTypeMaterials table, the baseExtraMaterialQuantity is the quantity from the ramTypeRequirements table from the database dump. Mathew and Fubar explained in [2] how to calculate the material quantity (if an item in the ramTypeRequirements table is marked as recycle = 1, then the materials for this component have to be subtracted by the quantities of the actual item: e.g. the Gyrostab II has amongst other things 890 units of Tritanium as raw materials requirement and a recycle flagged Gyrostab I module as an extra material. Thus the 696 units of Tritanium for the Gyrostab I have to be removed from the raw quantity of 890, making 194 (= 890 GÇô 696) units of Tritanium the new rawMaterialQuantity.
The problem: The formula above sometimes didn't work out as the OP already mentioned with the Tracking Link I. Until this post, I was sure the rounding was done like in accounting: ROUND DOWN on values < 0.5, otherwise ROUND UP. Well, this is not true for every value: CCP rounds in favor for the user, when it comes to the number 2.5! Then the value is rounded down to 2!!!
Take a look at this quote. It is the quote of a ME 0 Gyrostab I Blueprint (MW = 0.1), my char had a PE level of 3 (SW = 1.15) and I was building at a normal equipment array (PW = 1). The database dump states the raw material quantity of 2 units of Zydrine. So the above formula would give a final Quantity = ROUND(2 * (1.15 * 1 + 0.1) + 0 * 1.15 * 1) = ROUND(2.5) ... which would be normally 3, but the actual bill of material says 2 (and also uses up 2 units, when built!).
The same thing happend here (Tracking Link I, ME 0, PE 1, standard array) and here (Tracking Link I, ME 0, PE 5, rapid array)
As far as I can tell, all values above 2.5 are rounded correctly, like in accounting. Values between 1 and 1.499999999 are rounded down too. Above 1.5 and below 2 is rounded up. But I cannot test the behaviour of 1.5 (no such base quantity exists in the db!)
Peace Math is a lie!
[1] http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1561558 [2] http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1220024 (posts #30 and #31)
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
359
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Posted - 2012.07.03 20:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
Good rundown Lutz but I found that 2.5 is rounded up for some items as well. It's super confusing but appreciate you work in figuring it out. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
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