Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 27 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 89 post(s) |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
313
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:02:00 -
[91] - Quote
Now that we have someone from CCP reading this thread here is the petition I sent in just before the justifiable anger and updated during the silliness.
Quote:Hi guys,
I gotta say this recruitment drive is hauling a poor crop indeed. Check out this one:
(link removed by me)
No empathy - check. No effort at all to help - check. Immediately close the user's thread without any chance for the community to help - check. Link the customer to an already closed thread - check.
Forums are to communicate and to lessen the burden of support - basically the cost of it. If you empower a group of drones who fail to understand that they at some level need to represent your company as well as mindlessly apply "rules" then you are doing yourself a great disservice.
Why you even let them say "rules" is beyond me. Forum moderation is 100% subjective and dependent on infinite combinations of context. Make your people say "guidelines". Semantically the same thing, provides infinite wriggle room and is not as confrontational to the customer.
Who is educating your moderators?
Moderators should be polite, but firm. Most importantly they should give the customer a feeling they appreciate their position, even if they privately could not care less.
I have no idea where you are getting these people, but Gods you are creating a miserable time for yourself down the tracke And during the madness...Quote:And now as you can see by looking at the forum he has lost all control and all respect.-á
Exactly what you don't want from someone representing you.-á
A simple rule with this large forum game, there are always more of them with less to lose than you. You need to have moderators who can win the mob to win the day.-á
Time is money. A settled forum is a cheap forum.-á
Without finesse unimaginative volunteer moderators just create a mess that paid employees need to clean up. And here we are just as I predicted.
I have views on forum moderation and in particular games forums built up over many years and to me CCP is demonstrating a text book case of how you can repeatedly fumble the ball in this area. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
541
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Those posts aren't what this was about.
Ah, so you're a firm believer that all headaches need an asperine, no need to look at the whole picture.
|
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:34:00 -
[93] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:The problem with stupid people is that they don't realize they're stupid. "The" problem? I don't think I agree with that. I'll agree that it is one of the problems, but I'm certain we can all agree that failing to recognize their own condition is a second place prize behind having the condition itself. (Sorry for the stilted language; I'm trying to avoid repeating the insult while still agreeing with the sentiment.)
I'm uncertain if this is an appropriate place to ask this (if not, please be gentle with your rebukes), but can someone (CCP or ISD) please explain the CCL volunteer interviewing & vetting process? I would have imagined that prior moderation experience (with *evidence*) be required. If so, then is someone looking into how that interview/vetting failed to screen out the apparent non-performing volunteer(s)?
MDD |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:48:00 -
[94] - Quote
I appreciate the work the CCL is trying to accomplish with the help of CCP.
I personally avoid the more popular areas of the forums because of the trolling and the negative style posting. I do agree it is a sand box, but it is a multplayer sandbox and we must respect our neighbors and not to poop all over it. There are Places like Failheap Challenge and anothers where people can be as ugly as they like.
The only recourse I have when dealing with such vile posting on the eve forums, is to go to portions where the Trolls and other ugly poster frequent less. Now with CCL and CCP fighting back the tide of vile filth I can start coming back to the regular forms.
Thank You CCL and CCP. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:57:00 -
[95] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!
First they came for the shitposters, and I did not speak out because I was not a shitposter.
Then they came for the immature morons, and I did not speak out because...
Nah, f*ck it, I'm fine with suppressing shitposters and immature morons.. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
548
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:09:00 -
[96] - Quote
Remigius Varagine wrote:So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE? On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)? And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?
I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance. Stop playing EVE? No, we don't need our opponents to unsub, but undermining their confidence in their alliance to stop them from joining fleet the next time there's an ALL HANDS ON DECK RED PEN EVERYONE BE THERE op, sure.
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Syllviaa
Dominus Nex Angelus
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:12:00 -
[97] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote:We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive.
Unfortunately some members of your group did not share your opinion, which led to the whole debacle yesterday. It's not as though this was a one off incident, it had been going on for weeks. It's a shame it took such drastic measures for you to realise there was actually a problem. Freeing the people listed below after a month or so would be great too
Free CCP Zymurgist Free RubyPorto Free Talon SilverHawk Free Malacath Azaria IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:32:00 -
[98] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Those posts aren't what this was about.
Ah, so you're a firm believer that all headaches need an asperine, no need to look at the whole picture.
You're looking at the color of the blood and missing the arterial spurting.
The ISDs were acting inappropriately towards constructive posts that were well within the historical norm of the forum when it was well moderated. The shiptosting riot came after that. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:35:00 -
[99] - Quote
ISD Eshtir wrote: We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive.
I won't edit your words in my quote, but please be accurate:
"We Accept feedback now that the problem got loud" -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3750
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 22:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked. This actually happens all the time and is extremely annoying. I had a thread infested with npc alts, and rather than deal with them ISD simply closed the thread for being "off-topic". |
|
None ofthe Above
278
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:00:00 -
[101] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked. This actually happens all the time and is extremely annoying. I had a thread infested with npc alts, and rather than deal with them ISD simply closed the thread for being "off-topic".
It could have been worse, the thread could have been infested by goons... oh wait.
Anyway. Totally agreed. As I posted earlier I think that's important to stop this practice.
|
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:09:00 -
[102] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players. So maybe its another example where care bear gaming style collides with goon gaming style.
A new forum moderation has to acknowlegde the different demands of forum warriors and casual players. The former ones having a more polemic demand the latter ones having a more informativ demand
...and btw. moderating CSM threads (and podcasts) is also needed but is a highly sensitive affair.
|
Syllviaa
Dominus Nex Angelus
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:18:00 -
[103] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players.
Actually it is, you just need to learn how to utilise it.
Free CCP Zymurgist, RubyPorto, Talon SilverHawk, Karl Hobb, Malacath Azaria -Mallak Azaria (Soon to be free) -Malacath Azaria IB4TS |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:27:00 -
[104] - Quote
Syllviaa wrote:Kyshonuba wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players. Actually it is, you just need to learn how to utilise it.
I am all ears
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2543
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker.
Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. Let me be totally blunt to you Mara Tessidar. Your alliance mates made up the nonsense you are happily posting. As far as I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums.
Sometimes you just need to stop and think about what you are posting rather than blindly echoing the things posted on your alliance wiki. Posting RL pictues of eve players there and accusing them of child abuse and pedophilia might well be an accepted practise on Something Awful forums but continually attempting to smear the RL reputations of eve players is not something these forums should be a party to.
At this point you are the problem Mara Tessidar. And you are exactly the sort of person whose behaviour needs moderating on Eve online forums.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
Kyshonuba wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:
Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.
.... not for high sec corporations and casual eve players.
Forum warfare got you the dozens of nerfs to HS violence that have happened over the years. I think it's been pretty useful to that crowd. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Lord Zim
952
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:36:00 -
[107] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:At this point, it's going to take a long, long time for the ISD team to even hit the baseline. Maybe it's the fault of one rogue member, but as CCP knows, one member can do a lot of damage when it comes to reputation. If the CCL team is to be recovered, it needs to spend a long time on the forums learning how to calm threads down with words.
(And editing peoples posts [besides normal word filter stuff] is probably the worst thing you can do ever. Better off wiping the post out and sending a reason why.) I'm going to just second this. I wouldn't be surprised if I've got a few of my posts which have been edited (since I've posted a lot, and I'm not trying to **** up everyone's backside by being mr politically correct), but I have no idea since I don't go back and read my own posts to see if I've "broken any ISD rules".
It would probably help if the ISD moderation involves stealth-editing, that there's a way for us to see that at a glance. Or some way of being notified. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:At this point, it's going to take a long, long time for the ISD team to even hit the baseline. Maybe it's the fault of one rogue member, but as CCP knows, one member can do a lot of damage when it comes to reputation. If the CCL team is to be recovered, it needs to spend a long time on the forums learning how to calm threads down with words.
(And editing peoples posts [besides normal word filter stuff] is probably the worst thing you can do ever. Better off wiping the post out and sending a reason why.) I'm going to just second this. I wouldn't be surprised if I've got a few of my posts which have been edited (since I've posted a lot, and I'm not trying to **** up everyone's backside by being mr politically correct), but I have no idea since I don't go back and read my own posts to see if I've "broken any ISD rules". It would probably help if the ISD moderation involves stealth-editing, that there's a way for us to see that at a glance. Or some way of being notified.
Better yet, don't stealth edit. It makes you look like you're hiding (again, blanking out curse words, we understand). -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
360
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:41:00 -
[109] - Quote
I would like to see a more structured rule system rather than the very vague ones used now.
A post that mutates into another for a few pages is not necessarily off topic but just a different tangent people feel needs to be discussed.
As to the rumor rule a clarification as to this would be great. Does it cover any rumor at all or just rumors about CCP its self. I ask this as the entire crap posting CSM interference I ran earlier this year was entirely based on rumors. If we cannot use any rumors it will be boring and would give an unfair advantage to people who are not members of Goonswarm, in the next CSM election. We would have so many facts to throw against them while they will have very few to throw back. Otherwise all the CSM discussions will be is Goonswarm say something not proven as a fact and next you have 5 posts saying "Rumor ban the Goon". Then what will you do, as the rules in there present form state that rumors are a banable offense. All it will lead to is factual statements of CCP favoring one alliance over the rest of the game or a lot of pissed goons.
Also the moderators will need to be more attentive when closing duplicate threads, as they have already closed threads that were similar but not actually the same on this forum. It may seem a trivial point but when you are arguing for something not exactly the same as another person the threads get badly distorted if they have to be placed in the same thread. And frankly I feel like scum when I usurp someone else's thread(Unintentionally)
I welcome CCP's willingness to discuss these matters even though the fact that some people had to get banned first to show what was wrong was not a good step in the right direction.
A lot of people are still distrusting after last summers atrocities and frankly you cannot blame them. CCP lost a lot of trust and respect in those dark days and while the forums need moderation, a slow increase over time would have been a better way rather than trying to change them all at once.
Please unban those who were banned to get us to this level of communication as a sign of good faith and a willingness to learn from your mistakes. (Although I must say we are not blameless in this)
Thank you again for talking about this and hopefully saving this forum from obscurity. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1375
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:55:00 -
[110] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I would like to see a more structured rule system rather than the very vague ones used now.
A post that mutates into another for a few pages is not necessarily off topic but just a different tangent people feel needs to be discussed.
As to the rumor rule a clarification as to this would be great. Does it cover any rumor at all or just rumors about CCP its self. I ask this as the entire crap posting CSM interference I ran earlier this year was entirely based on rumors. . You getting really weird and creepy whiteknighting Issler Dainze for CSM wasn't a "rumor". |
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
360
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 00:59:00 -
[111] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I would like to see a more structured rule system rather than the very vague ones used now.
A post that mutates into another for a few pages is not necessarily off topic but just a different tangent people feel needs to be discussed.
As to the rumor rule a clarification as to this would be great. Does it cover any rumor at all or just rumors about CCP its self. I ask this as the entire crap posting CSM interference I ran earlier this year was entirely based on rumors. . You getting really weird and creepy whiteknighting Issler Dainze for CSM wasn't a "rumor". Your very right. Given the number of people who play EvE from the United states and after watching the South Park episode on Terrorism. I wanted to know if the joke about people from the United States was true. Also a comment Made by Jeremy Clarkson about the matting habits of the people of the United States and vegetables made me want to know more.
Well the result of the election pretty much turned that from a Joke to a Fact. Thanks for taking part in the Study
Oh so yes your allegation of white knighting was a rumor not a fact and as I said above "Rumor Ban Him" Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Yonis Kador
Transstellar Alchemy
179
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: 'Crap posts' are not necessarily a problem. Abusive, spiteful and hateful posts most certainly are.
Then CCP Navigator, I'd suggest that the CCLs type the words "excessive off topic, " "lack of content," and "no content" much less frequently.
A minority of the threads locked in recent days have been due to hateful, personal attacks.
Edits abound.
I tend to agree with the idea that posts currently being locked for trolling or lack of content be moved to another section and moderated there only for personal attacks and language instead of being locked. I'd at least like to see them moved off the first page of GD. When I log onto the forums, seeing a half dozen topics locked on page one does not give me the impression this is a place full of freely-expressed ideas. It's disturbing.
And self-moderation by the community would seem simple. Add a "dislike" button to GD. Maybe even have posts auto-minimized if they receive a certain percentage of total dislikes to remove them from the flow of conversation. Add a value for "Dislikes received: " under the character avatars. If likes matter, why wouldn't dislikes? CCLs still wouldn't be able to base moderating decisions solely on these values, but it could be a useful tool in deciding what the forum thinks of a poster with 10,000 dislikes and 14 likes. It's these highly-subjective, individual CCL determinations on content that seem to be the problem. That hammer should be a little heavier to wield.
If there's this many topics with no content, CCP sent the CCLs into a cockroach infested home with a can of Raid. And a couple of them are spraying anything that twitches.
I still think that no matter what kind of content they're contributing, if players are posting on CCPs forums, they're not spending time doing something else. Those customers shouldn't be routinely censured without any expressive outlet available.
Keep this as the informational forum. Moderate it as necessary. Devs can post in forum high-sec, spam-free nirvana. But I think there's room for purely-entertainment posts too. Construct "The Void." You can even initially ban players there instead of from all forums. Maintain a seedier, forum underbelly. Give players options. Some players take trolling to an art form. They need a bridge to live under, i.e. a low-sec version of the forums.
Gagging customers in this way is bad PR no matter the justification.
Yonis Kador "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
229
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:19:00 -
[113] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:
Hi Crunchie Attuxors,
I want to address a few of your points if I may. Firstly, the ISD team have absolutely no banning powers whatsoever. All bans from the forums are issued by the Community team as are all new forum rules. The latest rules we have are to provide a better environment for Developers and players to talk. That is our primary goal.
It is to be expected that some volunteers (even seasoned CCP staff for that matter) will drop the ball from time to time. In regards to ISD members, I view this as a training opportunity to make these guys and girls better and ensure they communicate much more effectively with the Community.
Obviously we will continue to conduct audits and ensure that CCL members revive the best support possible from us to do the best possible job for everyone.
I had a large post I was about to hit enter on, but realized it would just get me banned. Talking about mystifying 10 hour bans, with no notification, and my subsequent petition that completely evaporated is bannable.
Your crew is out of control, and my worst fears detailed in posts from last week in the CCL recruitment thread have all come to pass. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1376
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:29:00 -
[114] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: so yes your allegation of white knighting was a rumor not a fact and as I said above "Rumor Ban Him" Actually that makes the white knighting fact and your post-sperg damage control fall under the realm of 'rumor' sooo... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1376
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 01:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
dbl post |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
360
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:05:00 -
[116] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Frying Doom wrote: so yes your allegation of white knighting was a rumor not a fact and as I said above "Rumor Ban Him" Actually that makes the white knighting fact and your post-sperg damage control fall under the realm of 'rumor' sooo... And sperg being one of the things they should get rid of. Pointless attacks on the disabled and racial groups should be the first thing to go. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:05:00 -
[117] - Quote
I wish there was an Ignore person on forums. And then if a person who is placed on ignore often enough become Auto ignore. If I loved reading these Auto ignore people, I could click the button, but that would be my choice.
A video by Extra Credits Brought this idea up in a video the was brain storming on how to empower the community to police out the poo posters from mainstream communication in FPS. While allowing those Poo posters to be heard by those people who selected to listen to poo posters.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment
If something like this could be implemented I think the forums would have a nice rose covered out side look and for those who wanted the hate, garbage, and filth could simply dig down for it.
To get this to work would take a while to build the data points so it would be tough to meta game the mechanic.
First CCL and CCP would be the only ones registering the ignore votes. As time proceeds only those with XXX amount of Valuable Posts would have their ignore votes towards the auto ignore count. If a scam does pop out, then the mechanism can be reversed by the volunteers if they deem that the auto ignore had been meta gamed, and those who chose to be apart of that unfair play would have their votes of ignore not count towards auto ignore.
To prevent abuse of the Alts posting poo, or temp accounts poo posting, The auto ignore would hit all alts of that account, Accounts have to be a certain age before being allowed into certain sections, this process can be sped up by Valued posts, A post with X amount of likes or non poo replys
This in the end would Make the volunteers life a lot easier and would not block free speech, just remove the mega phone! Allowing those of us who don't want meadow muffins piles in our sandbox, an ability to filter it out.
COAD would be an interesting place to be a test bed.
Just my 2 Cents... as 5000 players press the "Ignore Gevlin" Key on their key board. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:36:00 -
[118] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:And self-moderation by the community would seem simple. Add a "dislike" button to GD. Maybe even have posts auto-minimized if they receive a certain percentage of total dislikes to remove them from the flow of conversation.
God, no. With the amount of metagaming that goes on in the forums, you're effectively giving the larger alliances the censorstick instead of the ISDs. Dunno about you, but I know who I trust more.. |
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 02:42:00 -
[119] - Quote
Aryth wrote:
Now, if you could just unlock the 4x4 thread once the blog hits that would be spiffy :)
Eve forums have new rules aryth.
-º 28b: Once a week any eve account may start a forum thread with up to 100 pages -º 28c: Once the threads exceeds 100 pages topic starter has to pay a certain amount of LP's to keep it open. -º28d: Calculation formula used is ...
Base thread LP Cost = (Base thread pages)-¦ X (Number of posts + Number of Quotes) X 10 000 LP thread Cost = Base LP Cost X Faction member posts
Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox |
Antisocial Malkavian
Aliastra Gallente Federation
180
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 04:00:00 -
[120] - Quote
daveo911 wrote:in before lock?
for no content? lol
Gevlin wrote:I wish there was an Ignore person on forums. And then if a person who is placed on ignore often enough become Auto ignore. If I loved reading these Auto ignore people, I could click the button, but that would be my choice.
lets just make all of Goons mods then... http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 27 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |