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Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.01 22:23:00 -
[1]
Regular fighting,
[Megathron, Neutrons] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
VS.
[Abaddon, Tanked DPS] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Here is how the fight goes, Megathron starts burning towards a given target as does the Abaddon.
Abaddon starts shooting at 45+10 with scorch for 649 DPS. When the Abaddon gets close it switches to ANMF and gets 815 DPS.
The Megathron does 0 DPS until it hits 11+16 with Null when it starts doing 663, or 4.5+13 for 832. Abaddon also has way better EHP (40k more).
[Thorax, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Hammerhead II x5
407 DPS @ 1.9+5, no selectable damage type, and if you opt not to mix guns you get even less DPS.
VS.
[Rupture, Tech 11] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile
Warrior II x4 Valkyrie II x1
402 DPS, selectable damage type, and 1.5+12 engagement range.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.02.01 23:30:00 -
[2]
Yes. Hybrids need some help.
Only blaster boats you see wandering 0.0 are the taranis, daredevil, and ishkur. Armor tanking just leaves you too slow and the caldari range bonus does nothing for blasters.
I lied. I saw a deimos in providence yesterday. Horrible lolmail it made. 2x CPR.
Blasters need either tracking or dps or a combination. The problem with buffing blasters is that people can't agree on what blasters should bring to the table. We agree that they need buffed. Then the arguments begin. Should a blasterboat **** ships of a size class smaller? Should a blasterboat do so much damage in fleet that mwding around to the primary is worthwhile? How much of a dps buff would they need to do this? Should CCP engineer a change to the tracking mechanic so a blasterboat could get under the guns of simular sized ships? (In my opinion, no.)
Should a blasterboat beat a laserboat starting from 40km? In my opinion no, and anybody who asks for this or points out that a blasterboat can't is a ***got looking for a solopwnmobile. #1 No blasterboat is going to start a fight from 40km unless he gets tackled there. #2 A laserboat should win at long range while a blasterboat should win at short range.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.01 23:48:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Should a blasterboat beat a laserboat starting from 40km? In my opinion no, and anybody who asks for this or points out that a blasterboat can't is a ***got looking for a solopwnmobile. #1 No blasterboat is going to start a fight from 40km unless he gets tackled there. #2 A laserboat should win at long range while a blasterboat should win at short range.
I hope you don't think that 40km is long range.
IMO blasters should do simply staggering amounts of damage. I literally do not find the previously floated number of 80% more damage than a pulse geddon when under 500m from target to be at all out of line.
The fundamental problem with blasters stems from a series of HP buffs over the years, and the inherent speed penalties of buffer tanking.
My suggestion has been, and I have yet to be swayed from this, to increase raw blaster damage by at least 25%.
Alternatively, you could also increase blasterboat hull HP by 25%, which would make suitcase tanking, which doesn't incur speed penalties, that much more effective. At the leeast it would allow blasterboats slightly longer to apply DPS before they blow up. If this were to happen though, it would have to apply only to blasterboats, as any increase in hull HP on other ships would essentially be yet another general HP boost and hurt blasterboats more than it helps.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:07:00 -
[4]
So when I point out how good lasers are you say "If blasters were that good they would be OMGWTFBBQ"... newsflash, lasers are ALREADY that good. Are they OP?
I do not think lasers are OP nor do I want blasters to be the same as lasers. I just want blasters to be AS GOOD as lasers, whereas right now look at that abaddon stats and there is NO REASON to fly a mega ever.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: grapez I hope you don't think that 40km is long range.
100km is sniperhac range. 150-250km is sniperbs range. 40km isn't that far in terms of snipers... But large blasters are weapons that operate somewhere out to 20km effectively. Large autocannon have falloff somewhere out to 30-40km where they do 38% of their damage. In the world of short range sub-bs ships the only guys who work at that range are the zealot and the vaga varients. In a small gang situation 40km is pretty long range. Technically the term to describe 40-70km is mid-range if that makes you happy. In a 1v1 a laserboat should win if the fight started at mid-range and a blasterboat should win if the fight started out at short range(say 15km and less) all things being equal.
At 40km the blaster boat can even warp away.
Anybody who brings up a theoretical 1v1 where the blasterboat starts at mid-long range and tries to close against a lasorboat is an idiot.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Anybody who brings up a theoretical 1v1 where the blasterboat starts at mid-long range and tries to close against a lasorboat is an idiot.
I agree with you here, but I'm going to take it one step further and say that the method of balancing ships based on 1v1's is not useful, because 1v1's don't happen on Tranquility.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:41:00 -
[7]
Quote: Here is how the fight goes, Megathron starts burning towards a given target as does the Abaddon.
Abaddon starts shooting at 45+10 with scorch for 649 DPS. When the Abaddon gets close it switches to ANMF and gets 815 DPS.
The Megathron does 0 DPS until it hits 11+16 with Null when it starts doing 663, or 4.5+13 for 832. Abaddon also has way better EHP (40k more).
I'm all for giving hybrids a small buff, but posts like these don't help your point at all.
1. A sane Megathron pilot would not engage an Abaddon at that range, as the Abaddon will win 90% of the time.
2. An Abaddon can't point the Megathron from that range, giving the Megathron an opportunity to warp off and get a good warp-in on the Abaddon
3. The Abaddon is a Tier 3 ship and the Megathron is a tier 2 ship.
In short, your "regular fighting" assumptions are laughable. |
Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:43:00 -
[8]
I don't think it's an idiotic point but it is an obvious one. Blaster boats fight at zero, if they fight at zero and are properly fitted they can own the bad guys. Outside of that scenario they are pretty much useless. If you like that fighting style then you'll like flying blaster boats, it can be a very exciting way to fight but you have to acknowledge you are a one trick pony with a nasty kick. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:50:00 -
[9]
Edited by: adriaans on 02/02/2010 00:51:29 why the heck would the blasterboat start the fight at 45km? not like the abaddon can point him at that range.... worst case the fight starts at 10km distance.
secondly, you're setups suck.
third, the abaddon caps out before mega dies (especially if the mega gets proper fit with a neut) -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.02.02 00:57:00 -
[10]
http://www.it-kills.us/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=135126
Here is a 1v1. I bet 1 bil isk i could pull out hundreds more over the course of yesterday easily. If you want to take me up...
Making the game imbalanced for 1v1 is stupid. A solopwnmobile is a bad thing to have in game.
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drake duka
Minmatar Point Blank. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 01:17:00 -
[11]
Did you all even read his post? He said burning towards a given target, meaning a fleet fight where the baddon would do a lot better overall dps. Yes, the amarr setups suck but just change a web for a cap booster (he prob forgot to change mids in diff setups).
And LOL thorax is worse than rupture, they are really about the same as cruisers can get to optimal range easily. (also nice eft warrior assault launchers, who does that?)
BTW, there is a search button if you use it you will find 50 whine threads with pages of redundant responses, how is yours any different? Just fit rails on your mega or train amarr.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Final Agony
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Posted - 2010.02.02 01:55:00 -
[12]
The first rule of being a good blaster ship pilot is you start every fight at zero and stay there no matter what. Any sane blaster Mega pilot in your 'regular fighting' scenario (which is only regular fighting in nullsec) will warp away and maybe warp back at optimal.
Blaster ships are terrible in 0.0, as most fights happen at range. I love my blasterboats, hence this is one of the major reasons I came back from 0.0 . In lowsec the blaster Mega is actually pretty good as every fight is inside point range, which is inside of 1 falloff for Null L. At these ranges large Null performs very well - better than pulses even.
I do think the tracking could stand some buffing on large blasters. One of the reasons the Hype is so useless is because with no tracking bonus it has a hard time hitting anything, even when the Hype stationary and the pilot has max gunnery support skills.
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Arrador
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Posted - 2010.02.02 02:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: drake duka Did you all even read his post? He said burning towards a given target, meaning a fleet fight where the baddon would do a lot better overall dps. Yes, the amarr setups suck but just change a web for a cap booster (he prob forgot to change mids in diff setups).
And LOL thorax is worse than rupture, they are really about the same as cruisers can get to optimal range easily. (also nice eft warrior assault launchers, who does that?)
BTW, there is a search button if you use it you will find 50 whine threads with pages of redundant responses, how is yours any different? Just fit rails on your mega or train amarr.
actually, Rupture ****s the rax. Similar DPS, but much faster, more raw armor hitpoints, can field neuts, capless guns, can exploit the rax's explosive hole...
[Rupture, Armor Ruppy] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Warrior II x5
472dps, 7300 armor hit points, 20k ehp.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 02:06:00 -
[14]
The example of range is not 1v1, it is Abaddon and Megathron in the same gang trying to shoot a target in a hostile gang. The megathron does nothing for his team and the Abaddon does a lot, that is the point I was trying to make.
I do not give a **** how any ship performs 1v1 because that format exists only in the realm of fiction. I care what a ship brings to a GANG. That Abaddon is bringing solid DPS out to 45+10 and nearly identical DPS at point blank.
Blasters have the same problem at every size, but it is particularly accentuated in the BS class because smaller sized vessels are usually involved in smaller sized battles so the deficiency is less noticeable and the speed can help compensate.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.02.02 03:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Asuka Smith The example of range is not 1v1, it is Abaddon and Megathron in the same gang trying to shoot a target in a hostile gang. The megathron does nothing for his team and the Abaddon does a lot, that is the point I was trying to make.
I do not give a **** how any ship performs 1v1 because that format exists only in the realm of fiction. I care what a ship brings to a GANG. That Abaddon is bringing solid DPS out to 45+10 and nearly identical DPS at point blank.
Blasters have the same problem at every size, but it is particularly accentuated in the BS class because smaller sized vessels are usually involved in smaller sized battles so the deficiency is less noticeable and the speed can help compensate.
Well if your gang's dominant range is close range and you choose to fight at 40km then you're doing something wrong, not the ship.
Besides, gang fights have so many variables comparing single ships in "gang" situations is totally subjective on one's own gang experience. If you were more specific, then it would help.
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lil j0n
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Posted - 2010.02.02 03:47:00 -
[16]
For high and low sec RR pew pew I totally prefer the mega to the geddon. The extra mid, and superior damage types make it the better ship for the typical empire RR fight.
You can't always play to your chosen BS's strengths and you should chose another ship, and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG HAVING TO CHOSE A DIFFERENT SHIP. You probably don't even have to train another race, the Domi does pretty well at supporting RR gangs and doing acceptable damage out to pulse geddon ranges. |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.02.02 04:34:00 -
[17]
What do you actually want Asuka?
If its a 1v1 the Mega would never microwarpdrive across 55km of pain to put dps on a Abaddon. It would warp off. But if it did decide to do this thing the Abaddon would have every right to win.
If its a fleet VS fleet fight the Mega with your fit 45km off the Abaddon would maybe get some drone damage on the Abaddon before one or the other died from being primary. The Abaddon would do full dps to the Mega.
Umm. So...
Hybrids need buffing I agree. But that buff should not make a blaster ship outpreform a laserboat at laser optimals.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 05:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Hybrids need buffing I agree. But that buff should not make a blaster ship outpreform a laserboat at laser optimals.
Agreed - but they should be extremely clear winners up close, otherwise they aren't worth sacrificing the range for. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.02 06:12:00 -
[19]
Why is the ship people are comparing the Mega to always a Baddon?
Why not compare it to a Tempest?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 06:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Why is the ship people are comparing the Mega to always a Baddon?
Why not compare it to a Tempest?
Because the comparison to the worst BS in the game isn't very interesting. Normally they get compared to Geddons though, since you can neglect the drone bay and utility high.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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lil Ghork
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Posted - 2010.02.02 07:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Asuka Smith Edited by: Asuka Smith on 01/02/2010 23:21:18 Regular fighting,
[Megathron, Neutrons] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
VS.
[Abaddon, Tanked DPS] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Here is how the fight goes, Megathron starts burning towards a given target as does the Abaddon.
Abaddon starts shooting at 45+10 with scorch for 649 DPS. When the Abaddon gets close it switches to ANMF and gets 815 DPS.
The Megathron does 0 DPS until it hits 11+16 with Null when it starts doing 663, or 4.5+13 for 832. Abaddon also has way better EHP (40k more).
[Thorax, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Hammerhead II x5
407 DPS @ 1.9+5, no selectable damage type, and if you opt not to mix guns you get even less DPS.
VS.
[Rupture, Tech 11] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile
Warrior II x4 Valkyrie II x1
I like How OP Compares amarr t3 BS to gallente t2.
then next neglects to compare Amarr cruisers vs the thorax were the thorax clearly > the maller
Or the other way around compare the megathron to the tempest, were gallente wins again. Basicly Gallente has the middle ground in both categorious but you choose to compare it to the winner of each. You might have a point but i'm not gonna digniffy it with a propper answer when you try to slant opinion by putic up comparisions like this
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GIGAR
Caldari Domini Umbrus
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Posted - 2010.02.02 07:26:00 -
[22]
Blasters should definitely be more viable at close range. I just refuse to believe that using lasers can be more effective than pumping antimatter onto a ship... In therms of destruction, that is. -------------------------- 2 Years later, mining continues to be the most overlooked game mechanic in Eve |
Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 09:54:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 02/02/2010 09:54:28 I guess the real question from this thread is: "Does CCP believe every ship should have a role?"
Right now it looks like there are two schools of thought, one being that every single ship in the game should have a purpose for existing. And the other school being that there should always be a definitive "best in class" ship (Ie. BEST RRBS, with all other RRBS being pale imitators that you only fly if you do not have the skills for the best, or best roaming BS, or best solo BS, etc).
IMO even if the role is limited a ship should still have one. Right now the Abaddon will beat a Megathron in every situation. It will beat a megathron 1v1 at blaster optimal, it will deal a lot more damage in practical "real-life" situations, overall it just does a way better job at everything.
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VanNostrum
Tigers Of Anatolia
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Posted - 2010.02.02 10:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: VanNostrum on 02/02/2010 10:12:05 Do blasters need a buff in general? I don't wanna imagine taranis/ishkur/ishtar with blaster setups!
If you mean buff large blasters, fine. But what about a domi with blaster setup and large drones? Wouldn't it be kind of OP? Why not buff mega and hyperion and give them some range bonuses instead of something else? Imo this would fix a lot of things instead of making some OP gallente boats even more imba.
btw comparing Abaddon and Hyperion is absurd. A tier 1 domi can easily beat a tier 3 abaddon with neuts so what now? If we want gallente to be viable for sniping fleets we should focus on having a range bonused gallente BS instead of buffing all of them. Like replacing the repair amount bonus on hyperion with a 10% optimal per level on hybrids.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2010.02.02 10:14:00 -
[25]
20% more tracking to blasters, and boost null - in terms of range. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market ! |
Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 10:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: VanNostrum Edited by: VanNostrum on 02/02/2010 10:12:05 Do blasters need a buff in general? I don't wanna imagine taranis/ishkur/ishtar with blaster setups!
If you mean buff large blasters, fine. But what about a domi with blaster setup and large drones? Wouldn't it be kind of OP? Why not buff mega and hyperion and give them some range bonuses instead of something else? Imo this would fix a lot of things instead of making some OP gallente boats even more imba.
btw comparing Abaddon and Hyperion is absurd. A tier 1 domi can easily beat a tier 3 abaddon with neuts so what now? If we want gallente to be viable for sniping fleets we should focus on having a range bonused gallente BS instead of buffing all of them. Like replacing the repair amount bonus on hyperion with a 10% optimal per level on hybrids.
I never suggested any change, I just identified an imbalance and suggested some sort of change. Right now blasters suck, I am not qualified to fix them, but they suck badly and someone who is qualified needs to.
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lil Ghork
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Posted - 2010.02.02 11:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Originally by: VanNostrum Edited by: VanNostrum on 02/02/2010 10:12:05 Do blasters need a buff in general? I don't wanna imagine taranis/ishkur/ishtar with blaster setups!
If you mean buff large blasters, fine. But what about a domi with blaster setup and large drones? Wouldn't it be kind of OP? Why not buff mega and hyperion and give them some range bonuses instead of something else? Imo this would fix a lot of things instead of making some OP gallente boats even more imba.
btw comparing Abaddon and Hyperion is absurd. A tier 1 domi can easily beat a tier 3 abaddon with neuts so what now? If we want gallente to be viable for sniping fleets we should focus on having a range bonused gallente BS instead of buffing all of them. Like replacing the repair amount bonus on hyperion with a 10% optimal per level on hybrids.
I never suggested any change, I just identified an imbalance and suggested some sort of change. Right now blasters suck, I am not qualified to fix them, but they suck badly and someone who is qualified needs to.
you did no such things, you showed biased setup comparisons to promote an agenda, no fact finding mission in that at all
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.02.02 13:22:00 -
[28]
the problem with blasters has reminded the same for years.
Blasters do the most damage per second in game on a blaster ship, of any weapon type - ccp ment their crippling short range to have a dps advantage.
The problem is that other weapon types (mega pulses, autos and torps) offer dps within 5-10% of the blasters at 3-10x the ranges.
If you loose at the relationship between autos and lasers, dps at range, you'll see they are very close, lasers doing more dmg to a longer range autos doing good damage right out to a long falloff range. Throw blasters in to the same comparason and you'll see the damage delt as the range goes up stop completly where the autos and lasers are still doing a huge percentage (100% in lasers case) of their potential dps.
blasters simply need more damage output. Getting this much needed dps boost shouldnt be free, for a 25% overall increase (ranges as current) id be happy spending twice as much cap, or 3 times as many bullets or whatever just not tracking that only need to go up!
The vindi got more damage because it wasnt melting faces as it should, hello, none of the blaster ships melt faces anymore - no more than a gank geddon or auto mael 5 times as far away.
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N Ano
Caldari Zerg Corp
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: N Ano on 02/02/2010 14:01:31
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita http://www.it-kills.us/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=135126
Here is a 1v1. I bet 1 bil isk i could pull out hundreds more over the course of yesterday easily. If you want to take me up...
Making the game imbalanced for 1v1 is stupid. A solopwnmobile is a bad thing to have in game.
Wait, what are you trying to prove?
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Kenpotchi
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: N Ano Edited by: N Ano on 02/02/2010 14:01:31
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita http://www.it-kills.us/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=135126
Here is a 1v1. I bet 1 bil isk i could pull out hundreds more over the course of yesterday easily. If you want to take me up...
Making the game imbalanced for 1v1 is stupid. A solopwnmobile is a bad thing to have in game.
Wait, what are you trying to prove?
The fact that he can sit at 24km+ depending on the type of scram and kill a fail fit cane.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:28:00 -
[31]
I too agree that all ships should be the same. I think gallente blaster boats should dish out 3000 dps but maintain their range that way all us gallente are cool and can configure our boats so that our range doesn't matter and we make use of our new found sweetness. Amarr are blatantly overpowered because of scorch. It is the devils crystal. Gallente need lovin' real bad.
As a side note I think all gallente bs's should be able to launch atleast one fighter. I also think all gallente carriers should be able to fit capital guns and fit scorch ammo until ccp fixes our race.
Thankyou for your time. |
Sumelar
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:34:00 -
[32]
Originally by: GIGAR Blasters should definitely be more viable at close range. I just refuse to believe that using lasers can be more effective than pumping antimatter onto a ship... In therms of destruction, that is.
If you want to go that road, there's no way they could fit a containment system for the antimatter onto a turret shell anyway.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:38:00 -
[33]
I know this might sound stupid, but having short range weapons also brings the benifit that you have a big chanse to kill the target, since you are fighing inside Scramble and some times web range your intended target can't really escape.
A ship with weapons that only work outside scramble range really need atleast 1 more ship to get any kills at all... unless the intended target missplaced their warpout button.
So by making blasters the strongest weapon inside scramble range, wouldn't this make them and their ships the only weapon/ship of choice for solo fighting?
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:44:00 -
[34]
That's just it, ever since the web and speed nerd there has been constant screaming from vindicator and mega pilots. CCP never touched the guns all they did was make it more difficult for pirates and epeen pvp'rs to get 100% kills in their boats. With the addition of the scram and the web any competent mega pilot should be able to hold a target and overload guns popping said target before it gets away. If they can't think outside the box they run here...screaming. |
Ivelios d'Sanquine
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Posted - 2010.02.02 15:14:00 -
[35]
I shall quickly join the ranks of "yes blasters/rails needs to be better".. what about adding scripts to blasters? one that does increased EM penetration (and example) or quicker tracking speed or redused heat damage from overheating and so on.
dont make the gun itself better, it would not add more to the game exept make weapons more alike to one another. make them unik and give them scripts
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Cambarus
The Compass Reloaded
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Posted - 2010.02.02 16:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ivelios d'Sanquine I shall quickly join the ranks of "yes blasters/rails needs to be better".. what about adding scripts to blasters? one that does increased EM penetration (and example) or quicker tracking speed or redused heat damage from overheating and so on.
dont make the gun itself better, it would not add more to the game exept make weapons more alike to one another. make them unik and give them scripts
So instead of giving them more damage (keeping in mind that the thing that's supposed to keep blasters separate from other guns is their crazy DPS at close range) you're suggesting scripts that either give them variable damage types or increased tracking. You really haven't paid much attention to the minmatar race have you? (Hint: mid-range minni ammo gives a bonus to tracking, and minni have variable damage types) |
Ivelios d'Sanquine
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Posted - 2010.02.02 17:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Ivelios d'Sanquine I shall quickly join the ranks of "yes blasters/rails needs to be better".. what about adding scripts to blasters? one that does increased EM penetration (and example) or quicker tracking speed or redused heat damage from overheating and so on.
dont make the gun itself better, it would not add more to the game exept make weapons more alike to one another. make them unik and give them scripts
So instead of giving them more damage (keeping in mind that the thing that's supposed to keep blasters separate from other guns is their crazy DPS at close range) you're suggesting scripts that either give them variable damage types or increased tracking. You really haven't paid much attention to the minmatar race have you? (Hint: mid-range minni ammo gives a bonus to tracking, and minni have variable damage types)
it was an exampel... the script could also increase a ****load of other things... but it would make the blaster unic.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.02.02 18:05:00 -
[38]
May i remind part of last post of CCP employ in that matter :
Quote: Blasters rox
Good luck.
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NightmareX
Infinitus Odium Scum Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.02 18:43:00 -
[39]
Edited by: NightmareX on 02/02/2010 18:46:09
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 May i remind part of last post of CCP employ in that matter :
Quote: Blasters rox
Good luck.
And not only that. But one of the reasons i think CCP wont buff Blasters DPS, is because CCP gave all ships a HP buff some years ago. It was meant to be able to fight for longer period because the EVE population was increasing pretty good that time. And that means alot more players fighting. And therefor the ships have to last longer so we can have a chance to get in some backups and that before you die.
So why are all of you that says omg Boost Blasters DPS by 25% and that goes for that then?. It clearly goes against the HP buff some years ago.
The thing that i think will get fixed / nerfed next is Lasers / Scorch, because that thing is way to powerfull in Blasters territory.
Director of Infinitus Odium. |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.02 18:43:00 -
[40]
I think Blasters could indeed use some love. Personally I would give them a bit more falloff range, so more DPS can be applied to a target while the ship still closes in. A plain increase in damage is on the other hand not subtle, but still effective.
Another option could be to nerf Amarr a bit. Scorch again changed to only EM damage and the resistance nerf of Armor EM and Shield Explo Damage is reverted back.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.02.02 19:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: N Ano Wait, what are you trying to prove?
This->
Originally by: grapez 1v1's don't happen on Tranquility.
I'm proving this wrong. I went to a prominent killboard and I linked the first 1v1 I found. If you want to contest my assertion that 1v1s happen you can take up my bet and we can search killboards. I'd even be happy to say that 400 killmails resulted that day from 1v1 combat. 1 bil isk bet with anyone who wants to argue that I am wrong.
I'm posting with a faceless forum alt. I didn't kill the failfit hurricane. If you like I can go find more awesome 1v1 killmails but I don't think that would further my argument unless you want to argue that only ******ed people do 1v1s. Hint look up Garmon.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.02 19:25:00 -
[42]
Nice 1v1 you have there, with 90% of the damage coming from a faction spawn.
Also, no amount of "balancing" would have saved that Hurricane.
Also, 1v1's don't happen on Tranquility. I'll take your bet, you'll find a bunch of hilarious killmails of people being stupid and claim that they're somehow germane and I'll just laugh when I never pay you your 1 billion space dollars.
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Sovereign Enterprise
Gallente Crimson Empire. Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 19:28:00 -
[43]
How about instead of increasing blaster damage, you lower all the other damage?
One thing to consider about the whole "lolol just warp in at 0 you n00bz0r" is that it doesn't always work that way. In a 10v10 gang scenario, no one sits in blobs 10km from each other waiting to be "facemelted" by blasters, the amarr ships burn the **** out to 15 or 21 km, the minnie ships get out of web range, and the caldari ships didn't even warp within 50km.
As a result, 30 seconds into the fight you've got a massive shell of reds and purples comprised of a sphere anywhere from 20 to 75km in diameter. Let's say geddon #1 is called primary, because he was unlucky and everyone warped onto him. The next is an ECM scorpion which is REALLY messing up your fleet, and he's 50km off because he warped at range. Amarr battleships change to scorch, in one second mind you, and are instantly applying near full damage (except apocs, who have 62 km range?) Minmatar ships likely have barrage loaded already, so they're doing OK- maybe 50% damage. Caldari ships don't give a crap, they're still spewing missile spam out. And there's the gallente ships, spending 30 seconds just to reach 1000m/s, by which time the scorpion is dead.
Now, did the extra DPS the gallente blaster boats provided in bringing down that geddon REALLY justify having them contribute NOTHING to the scorpion kill besides drone damage and looking pretty?
Don't get me wrong, I love blasters personally for solo work. Once you get within scram/web range (not too terribly hard to do, most people are idiots) the fight ends quickly in your favor. However, once you get into any sort of fleet work it all just starts to break down.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.02 20:05:00 -
[44]
Quote: Another option could be to nerf Amarr a bit
and how, my good sir, would you even remotely do that? Ccp just buffed them from the sewer a little less than two years ago. Are you implying putting them back just because gallente have guns that operate differently? Oh I see...here we go with the roller coaster nerf brigade of people who haven't been on it either before or blatanty not long enough.
Having trully experienced flaws in this game for six years I have to state those thinking gallente blasters are broke are ex-vindi and mega pilots whining about inability to properly close range like they used too. Plain and simple.
You can't have my scorch devil crystals so bye bye. |
drake duka
Minmatar Point Blank. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 20:41:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Arrador
Originally by: drake duka Did you all even read his post? He said burning towards a given target, meaning a fleet fight where the baddon would do a lot better overall dps. Yes, the amarr setups suck but just change a web for a cap booster (he prob forgot to change mids in diff setups).
And LOL thorax is worse than rupture, they are really about the same as cruisers can get to optimal range easily. (also nice eft warrior assault launchers, who does that?)
BTW, there is a search button if you use it you will find 50 whine threads with pages of redundant responses, how is yours any different? Just fit rails on your mega or train amarr.
actually, Rupture ****s the rax. Similar DPS, but much faster, more raw armor hitpoints, can field neuts, capless guns, can exploit the rax's explosive hole...
[Rupture, Armor Ruppy] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Warrior II x5
472dps, 7300 armor hit points, 20k ehp.
lol failfit, I heard u like resists? |
drake duka
Minmatar Point Blank. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 20:50:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita http://www.it-kills.us/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=135126
Here is a 1v1. I bet 1 bil isk i could pull out hundreds more over the course of yesterday easily. If you want to take me up...
Making the game imbalanced for 1v1 is stupid. A solopwnmobile is a bad thing to have in game.
I think by 1v1 they mean when both pilots want to PvP, you posted a kill of an ishtar ganking a ratting cane (killing a ratter doesn't count as a 1v1").
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Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 20:50:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 02/02/2010 20:52:18
Originally by: Sovereign Enterprise
Don't get me wrong, I love blasters personally for solo work. Once you get within scram/web range (not too terribly hard to do, most people are idiots) the fight ends quickly in your favor. However, once you get into any sort of fleet work it all just starts to break down.
Now, let me add to this that I do not think every weapon has to be perfect for a fleet fight. Blasters are in a difficult situation because the entire concept of them sort of precludes usefulness in a long range fleet fight. The real problem is that railguns are not really viable either so you wind up not being able to contribute anything besides moral support in a fleet fight.
The problem with blasters is that they are never the best option, they fill no role besides "I already trained hybrids so this is all I can fit". If everyone had all level V skills I doubt blasters would ever be used. I myself would never choose blasters over lasers or projectiles in a vacuum.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.02.02 21:52:00 -
[48]
So a 1v1 is only a 1v1 if its fair? By the time somebody gets pointed most fights are predetermined.
K this is a case where both pilots wanted to fight.
http://www.gentlemen-in-space.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=38945
I am not the rifter pilot.
For the most part PEOPLE WHO SOLO DON"T LOOK FOR FAIR FIGHTS. ITS A GOOD WAY TO GET DEAD.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.02 22:03:00 -
[49]
So,
1.) You keep posting killmails with more than one involved party. These are manifestly not "1v1's." 2.) You say that you were not involved in this kill, and yet you assert that these two pilots agreed to a 1v1. I simply don't believe you. You either don't have enough information about this fight to be authoritative or you are lying about your role in these fights. 3.) By your own admission, 1v1's don't happen unless one party knows they have an advantage, so what's the point in balancing around this situation?
Face it, 1v1's are a a non-squitur in Eve; they don't happen as a matter of game design. Two people agreeing to a 1v1, and that 1v1 actually playing out, is plainly not the norm in Eve, so why even talk about them?
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Elldranga
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Posted - 2010.02.02 22:18:00 -
[50]
So.... why did you start the fight 55km away and charge straight towards him? That's probably the stupidest thing you could have ever done.
Given how many circumstances (such as a gate jump) start the fight MUCH MUCH closer, and how possible it is to manipulate circumstances to your advantage rather than his, trying to make an argument by stacking the deck in his favor by starting the battle in ideal positions for the laser boat, and presuming that your mega pilot is really idiotic, doesn't really say much in favor of your argument
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Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.02.02 22:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sovereign Enterprise Don't get me wrong, I love blasters personally for solo work. Once you get within scram/web range (not too terribly hard to do, most people are idiots) the fight ends quickly in your favor. However, once you get into any sort of fleet work it all just starts to break down.
Don't get me wrong, I love blasters [lasers] personally for solo [group] work. Once you get within scram/web range [someone else to point and web the target] (not too terribly hard to do, most people are idiots) [I have friends online] the fight ends quickly in your favor. However, once you get into any sort of fleet [solo] work it all just starts to break down.
Do you see where this is going? Gallente blasterboats are not the best fleet ships because they don't have significantly higher DPS until within tackle ranges. They are solo and very small group ships. This is similar to how Amarr pulse ships are not the best solo ships because they don't show significantly higher DPS than other ships until well outside tackle range.
What Gallente might need to be useful in a fleet is making the shorter range options of rails a bit more attractive with some extra tracking so they can use a weapon with the right ranges for the fights they're taking place in instead of trying to turn blasters into pulses. ** Disclaimer: Author sometimes spell checks but is not responsible for sins of commission, omission, emission, transmission, or submission. Flowers, bricks, or any other form of feedback appreciated |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 22:47:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kassa Daito ...
You are aware that gang PVP is much more plentiful than Solo PVP - and that it's much easier skill wise? While I am ok with blasters being more useful in small gangs and lasers in larger gangs, I feel that the balance between DPS and range is woefully lacking when looking at blasters. They simply don't have enough of it to entice me to use blasters unless I am quite literally solo.
And Solo PVP almost doesn't happen anymore. Queue up the 20 people claiming to solo PVP and not actually doing it, or doing it in frigs.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.02 23:41:00 -
[53]
good grief liang. bastardizing one race to enhance others isnt the option thats any good. ccp does this as a cycle going about every year they do it so there is a new fotm. you know im right. blasters have a role its just that for group pvp amarr happens to be on top in that role due to ranges. blaster boats have always been sweeter for solo pvp and after the speed changes all hell has broken loose because of it.
I mean if the current state of the game is that gallente are functioning as a pre ww1 tank design operating in ww2 then they need an overhaul not a typical CCP paint brush effect that sends the whole game into turmoil like they so often do annually. this usually means another race gets the suck.
jovial
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Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.02.03 00:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kassa Daito ...
You are aware that gang PVP is much more plentiful than Solo PVP - and that it's much easier skill wise? While I am ok with blasters being more useful in small gangs and lasers in larger gangs, I feel that the balance between DPS and range is woefully lacking when looking at blasters. They simply don't have enough of it to entice me to use blasters unless I am quite literally solo.
And Solo PVP almost doesn't happen anymore. Queue up the 20 people claiming to solo PVP and not actually doing it, or doing it in frigs.
-Liang
I agree with you. The balance of Gallente hybrid platforms vs others in mid ranges is completely f**ed up. I was just pointing out the worthlessness of complaining that the best solo combat ships in EVE are not also good at group PvP. It's like me complaining that the only ship I, as a non-khanid Amarr pilot (still need to train missile skills), have a snowball's chance of soloing something in is a curse and that can only take on cap-dependent ships. I realize the vast majority of my ships own in the larger fleets and use them there. In fact, I'm currently rounding out my hybrid skills for Gallente ships I can use in smaller groups (I love the 100% gank brutix for pure adrenaline-filled fun factor).
Blasters aren't useless, they are just not useful where you're trying to shoehorn them due to the current metagame. Because they already work well in certain roles then giving them a bonus that even remotely affects those roles has to be accompanied by some kind of nerf to the roles they already excel at or they'll become too powerful there. Ex: you can't just give blasters a free tracking bonus or they'll kill small ships too fast or give them more range because they'll now slaughter the long range disruption 'ceptors too.
The biggest complaint about hybrids IMO is that they have no midrange weapons. There is a giant hole in their engagement range where blasters cant hit and rails can't track and the current metagame for medium gangs happens to engage there often. ** Disclaimer: Author sometimes spell checks but is not responsible for sins of commission, omission, emission, transmission, or submission. Flowers, bricks, or any other form of feedback appreciated |
Atreus Tac
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.03 00:37:00 -
[55]
Hybrids do need a boost. The fact that all gang theory crafting I hear never include hybrid boats sucks when that is all you can fly.
However moving amarr back to their old position 2 years ago would be unfair. Tbh nerfing to make things even normally means that just something else becomes OP.
Would be nice to just see what CCP has to say so I can keep training hybrids or just sell my char.
[/left] |
drake duka
Minmatar Point Blank. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.02.03 02:05:00 -
[56]
I didn't say the posted kills needed to be "fair fights", I'm saying at least they should both be prepared to PvP at least (both be PvP fit), what's the point of posting a km of someone ganking a ratter?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.03 05:09:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jovialmadness good grief liang. bastardizing one race to enhance others isnt the option thats any good. ccp does this as a cycle going about every year they do it so there is a new fotm. you know im right. blasters have a role its just that for group pvp amarr happens to be on top in that role due to ranges. blaster boats have always been sweeter for solo pvp and after the speed changes all hell has broken loose because of it.
I mean if the current state of the game is that gallente are functioning as a pre ww1 tank design operating in ww2 then they need an overhaul not a typical CCP paint brush effect that sends the whole game into turmoil like they so often do annually. this usually means another race gets the suck.
jovial
Wait what the hell? I'm not asking for blasters to become wtf overpowered - and I think you should note that my last suggested boost did not yield projectiles being outright better than the lasers whom they were balanced against. I'm all a big fan of small steps - with the sole exception that CCP is just as likely to give us an inadequate 2% tracking increase and call it good for another two years.
No, my comment was specifically that blasters simply are not very useful in gangs - they either need more range so that they can engage from further away, or more damage so that when they do engage it offsets their range limitation. Currently, you won't really see a truly noticeable damage advantage even when you do manage to play your cards right. So why should you use blasters when your choice becomes "deal really good damage at any range" or "deal really good damage if you play your cards exactly right"?
Oh. Wait. I. Don't. Even. With. 45M. SP. In. Them.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.03 05:20:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/02/2010 05:21:16
Originally by: Kassa Daito
I agree with you. The balance of Gallente hybrid platforms vs others in mid ranges is completely f**ed up. I was just pointing out the worthlessness of complaining that the best solo combat ships in EVE are not also good at group PvP.
It's hardly worthless to note that a ship that's good in an extremely small niche sucks in the overwhelming majority of use cases - especially when its pretty much the whole thing your "race" does. I mean, its all well and good to be "excellent at solo" - but truly it does not offset the utility of being "****ing awesome blossom all around".
Quote: It's like me complaining that the only ship I, as a non-khanid Amarr pilot (still need to train missile skills), have a snowball's chance of soloing something in is a curse and that can only take on cap-dependent ships. I realize the vast majority of my ships own in the larger fleets and use them there.
Actually, it isn't the same. Their whole race sucks at the overwhelming majority of the game - whereas yours "sucks" (read: not quite as awesome) at a very tiny portion of the game. I think you can see the monster difference there.
Quote: In fact, I'm currently rounding out my hybrid skills for Gallente ships I can use in smaller groups (I love the 100% gank brutix for pure adrenaline-filled fun factor).
Yeah, shield gank brutixes are pretty neat... I'd probably stop there instead of training up BS sized blasters though.
Quote:
Blasters aren't useless, they are just not useful where you're trying to shoehorn them due to the current metagame. Because they already work well in certain roles then giving them a bonus that even remotely affects those roles has to be accompanied by some kind of nerf to the roles they already excel at or they'll become too powerful there. Ex: you can't just give blasters a free tracking bonus or they'll kill small ships too fast or give them more range because they'll now slaughter the long range disruption 'ceptors too.
You realize that you just told us that we should have no compensation for having weapons that are complete **** at 95% of the game right? We should be barely better than lasers even if they manage to play all if their cards right and land exactly on top of the enemy. No, you seem to be operating under the EXTREMELY WRONG idea that blasters are "fine" in their niche.... and they aren't.
Also, you should note that even with a 400% tracking boost we wouldn't see blasters dealing such crazy damage as you are insinuating... what we would see is them dealing the damage that their weapons were initially balanced around. Webs weren't so much nerfed because blasters were so awesome as that mobility is that critical.
Quote: The biggest complaint about hybrids IMO is that they have no midrange weapons. There is a giant hole in their engagement range where blasters cant hit and rails can't track and the current metagame for medium gangs happens to engage there often.
No, I'd argue that the most common complaint is that they aren't worth using when there's no reward for all the :effort: of flying around getting into optimal. They hit for **** when you're solo and you're miles from the target when you're in a gang. They need some niche - and currently they do not have one.
-Liang
Ed: And before you comment, I have Amarr BS5. And Caldari BS 5. And Minmatar BS 5. And Gallente BS 5. And all T2 Lg weapons. Liang will have them all soon on just one character. And you know what? Blasters are not worth using unless you're playing station games or are in some other extremely niche environment. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Arrador
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Posted - 2010.02.04 00:47:00 -
[59]
Originally by: drake duka
Originally by: Arrador
Originally by: drake duka Did you all even read his post? He said burning towards a given target, meaning a fleet fight where the baddon would do a lot better overall dps. Yes, the amarr setups suck but just change a web for a cap booster (he prob forgot to change mids in diff setups).
And LOL thorax is worse than rupture, they are really about the same as cruisers can get to optimal range easily. (also nice eft warrior assault launchers, who does that?)
BTW, there is a search button if you use it you will find 50 whine threads with pages of redundant responses, how is yours any different? Just fit rails on your mega or train amarr.
actually, Rupture ****s the rax. Similar DPS, but much faster, more raw armor hitpoints, can field neuts, capless guns, can exploit the rax's explosive hole...
[Rupture, Armor Ruppy] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Warrior II x5
472dps, 7300 armor hit points, 20k ehp.
lol failfit, I heard u like resists?
Hai,
How do you expect to fire guns while capped out?
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Essence Praetor
PWNED Factor
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Posted - 2010.02.04 01:00:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Essence Praetor on 04/02/2010 01:01:48 Let Blasters/Rails do 3 damage types instead of 2?
In descending order like 40% Kin 35% Explosive 15% EM?
Edit:
And maybe blasters can get a small falloff buff to work with (shrugs)
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Onewingedangel
Minmatar Exploit Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.04 04:27:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Onewingedangel on 04/02/2010 04:38:53 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 04/02/2010 04:36:35 Oh wow total pro your EFT fitz totally gotta duke it out.
Lets take just a moment to explore why the fits you propose are the apex of stupid.
Your super genius tripple trimarked abaddon with only two plates and an mwd caps out in like what, 1m30s ---> 2minutes tops? Seriously. Just seriously.
Lets take a trek to reality land. The abaddon is awesome for Solo/group pvp. Your abaddon fitting is ******ed. An abaddon with no MWD caps out at just over 3m with peak skills. Anyone who actually flies an abaddon knows you need a cap booster if plan on killing more than one ship.
Super awesome fact two, the Megathron really is really good. You just need to be close. And what do lazerz do when someone is 30m from you? Not much.
Finally, you are whining that your EFT warrior TIER 3 BATTLESHIP gets better numbers than your EFT warrioer TIER 2 BATTLESHIP.
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
OMG I tried to solo a Sliepnir in my Claymorz and I got totally pwned lawlz minmatar needz nerfz
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.04 05:14:00 -
[62]
blasters need moar damage.
moar as in MOAR!11one.
as for rails, now that's a tricky situation.
they are the weapons with the longest optimal ingame.
...small blasters are sorta ok. you don't see many people complaining about the lack of damage and tracking on the taranis or daredevil, or even the ishkur. cruiser sized blasters.... probably a small falloff boost (no more than 10%), together with a dmg boost of no less than 10%. large blasters... deffo more than 15% dmg boost.
as for rails, probably a 5% dmg and tracking boost across the entire range for starts? I mean, they were never supposed to be that high damage. that's the lasers department, nor high alpha, that's the projectiles department. great hit quality at extreme ranges might help it, together with probably upping the lock cap from 249km to 300km? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Darnok Iksnibiks
Gallente Bifrost Investment Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2010.02.04 14:27:00 -
[63]
Imho the only thing that need to be done to fix blasters is to buff void ammo by 25-50% more damage bonus, why? -easy to implement -t2 ammo will be better than t1/faction, as it should be -tracking reduction will be proper counterweight for dps potential, instead making ammo useless -will boost caldari hybrids platforms too, since void and ship bonus will result in nice optimal
I can see some possible cons, like: -hurting rax, brutix and hyperion due to worse tracking -making megaT only valid choice in gallente BS hulls
Just my 2 cents…
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Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.02.04 15:59:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: And before you comment, I have Amarr BS5. And Caldari BS 5. And Minmatar BS 5. And Gallente BS 5. And all T2 Lg weapons. Liang will have them all soon on just one character. And you know what? Blasters are not worth using unless you're playing station games or are in some other extremely niche environment.
I think I've figured out our disagreement: I don't have that much experience with large blasters although I recognize their limited usefulness just from the stats. I've used mediums and smalls both before and after the speed nurf but I was Caldari before the speed change and Amarr after it for BS-size ships.
The mid size blasterboats seem to be relatively balanced to me, being effective vs smaller ships and the most effective against larger ships. On the other hand, I can see how the BS-class ships that can't outmaneuver anything or even remotely control optimal from outside web/scram range are relegated to popping the smaller ships that also require sub-web range to be effective.
IMO at least most blasters are OK for their intended role. They may need a slight boost but overall the mediums are nice and the smalls are passable but TBH, I have never looked at frigates as DPS platforms except in swarms so generally I consider their utility mods to be more important than guns. That role is being dropped out of warp on top of something and quickly turning it into a wreck, then moving on. If you're going to consider that a niche role then you've obviously never been in w-space before as it accurately describes much of the combat out there (drop small fleet at 0 > kill a few ships > GTFO). Occasionally we get something that looks like a small fleet battle being played out with BCs, CS, T3s, a handful of BS, and the occasional carrier but those are infrequent.
The biggest issue I have with them is that they are paired with rails; very long range + average damage, + crappy tracking weapons. If they were paired with something more along the lines of what beam lasers are (possibly with slightly higher tracking), then you could reasonably fit them for small gang work. It would require a change of tactics from the pilot but beams are currently highly underrated for midrange work (mostly due to pulses+scorch being as good or better for anything below 60/30. At that point, you could then make a choice of engagement range when fitting a gallente gunboat as opposed to the current giant gaping hole left by having the longest range weapon paired with the shortest. ** Disclaimer: Author sometimes spell checks but is not responsible for sins of commission, omission, emission, transmission, or submission. Flowers, bricks, or any other form of feedback appreciated |
Garbad theWeak
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Posted - 2010.02.04 16:59:00 -
[65]
My main uses hybrids full time, and my alt uses lasers. Lasers are better under pretty much any combat condition. Here is why:
1. As mentioned, blasters are utterly useless unless you are point blank. Pulse can at least be marginally effective midrange. But once they are close range, its pretty comparable.
2. Mid range lasers are better. They tend to have better range and dps at the distances that matter for a given class. Tracking and such is ok, and its fine that their dps and alpha are worse than others. They are supposed to be the middle choice, decent at all but lacking the power of lasers or the flexibility of projectiles.
3. Hybrids are ok long range. The ho hum performance of rail snipers is because of better sniperboats mods on amarr ships.
IMO, to fix the hybrid problem:
1. Increase blaster falloff by 50% so that it can have an effect similar to autocannons if rigged for it. Nothing major, just a slight tap. In general, blasters are fine.
2. Tweak up the range on all medium or small railguns by 10%. Just enough to let them project a bit better. Also consider a small dps increase (5% or so) to make them a bit more deadly. IMO, the big weakness of rails is in these guns -- midrange small/medium rails are just terrible.
3. Rework the hype into a sniperboat. The hype generally isn't as good with blasters as the mega/dom, and is rarely used. Remove the armor rep bonus and give it a range bonus. No changes needed to large hybrids guns themselves.
IMO, this would bring hybrids into par with the other gun systems.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.04 17:38:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kassa Daito The mid size blasterboats seem to be relatively balanced to me, being effective vs smaller ships and the most effective against larger ships.
Even medium blasters are of extremely limited utility as gang sizes get above quite small. Medium pulse has absolutely no trouble tracking anything that blasters themselves have a prayer of tracking.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Oriss Amarr
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Posted - 2010.02.04 19:35:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Oriss Amarr on 04/02/2010 19:38:20 Edited by: Oriss Amarr on 04/02/2010 19:35:52 I don't know why in every "OMG SAVE TEH RAILZ!" thread I see range as a balancing factor. All battleships can hit 250km easy, so basically all the range translates into (theoretically) is increased DPS since you have to fit less mods to reach maximum rage. IMO, give turrets across the board similar ranges. This turns range into a "do I pick long range turrets, or short range?" instead of "f these blasters, I can't hit squat. I want pulses so I can actually hit." You still have the issue of being able to long range and snipe / kite (either by fitting more range mods, or using long range turrets over a short ranged turret opponent) without all the hassle of trying to give one race the range advantage... with a cap on range.
Balancing factors that SHOULD be used and affect DPS: tracking, damage, alpha, and rate of fire. Again, IMO damage should be pretty standard across the board so you don't get one ship who out DPSes everything. Really, they should give amarr a blistering rate of fire (due to not using ammo and lasers should be pretty fast to fire again due to said no ammo), minmatar the solid alpha but slow cycling turrets, and give gallente the high tracking turrets. This gives minmatar have very good sniping abilities and FF abilities, gallente a better advantage versus smaller ships, and makes amarr the best all around turret, on top of the no ammo advantage. Maybe give amarr a slight DPS boost over the others to compensate for not having a concrete advantage, although not having to reload and insta crystal swaps could easily be the compensating factor for this if they all have the same base DPS not including reload times.
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Veldsparmonster
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Posted - 2010.02.04 19:39:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Oriss Amarr All battleships can hit 250km easy, so basically all the range translates into (theoretically) is increased DPS since you have to fit less mods to reach maximum rage.
250km armageddon, abbadon, tempest, maelstrom, hyperion, megathron, dominix fit plz.
Quote: Death to the blob!
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Oriss Amarr
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Posted - 2010.02.04 19:54:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Veldsparmonster
Originally by: Oriss Amarr All battleships can hit 250km easy, so basically all the range translates into (theoretically) is increased DPS since you have to fit less mods to reach maximum rage.
250km armageddon, abbadon, tempest, maelstrom, hyperion, megathron, dominix fit plz.
I meant to say every RACE has a BS that can hit it, not every bs.
Shows how much I sniperthron. They changed the range bonus on it. So even with the "longest turrets in the game" gallente can't fit a long range sniper. Cool.
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Sunset Rogue
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Posted - 2010.02.04 21:10:00 -
[70]
Large blasters are the main problem. Mediums could maybe do with some improvement but the main issue is large blasters. Do not increase blaster optimal. Giving blasters more optimal just makes them poor emulators of pulse lasers. This would just lead to further whines of "buff blasters" and "nerf lasers"
I suggest improving blaster damage output by a fair margin, and a small improvement to tracking. Any half decent blaster pilot will manage their transversal anyway, and giving a huge tracking bonus would likely cause problems with Caldari blaster boats having TOO much tracking (at their extended ranges) for their shipclass.
Another problem with blaster boats is that they are typically plated up out of necessity, and this makes them *much* slower than many of their intended targets. I was toying with the idea of giving blaster boats an overheated MWD penalty/bonus: reduced agility , improved velocity. This would cause several other balance issues I know, but there IS the current problem of blaster boats being generally unsuitable for getting tackle on their intended targets.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.04 21:27:00 -
[71]
Just give (Gallente) blasterboats more strucuture HP. They're the structure race anyhow, and this with a suitcase would have the same effect as having a few extra plates without the mass penalty. This would be mitigated by the fact that out can't reasonable active tank structure, so while the HP comes out to be essentially "free," it still doesn't amount to an actual tanking option.
Caldari blaster platforms don't have this problem because they generally can fit a decent (regenerative, tankable) shield buffer while also fitting at least one tackle and damage mod.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.04 21:44:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 04/02/2010 21:44:35
Originally by: grapez Just give (Gallente) blasterboats more strucuture HP. They're the structure race anyhow, and this with a suitcase would have the same effect as having a few extra plates without the mass penalty. This would be mitigated by the fact that out can't reasonable active tank structure, so while the HP comes out to be essentially "free," it still doesn't amount to an actual tanking option.
Caldari blaster platforms don't have this problem because they generally can fit a decent (regenerative, tankable) shield buffer while also fitting at least one tackle and damage mod.
So.. Expensive.. Or.. Slow.. To.. Repair..
:(
-Liang
Ed: I don't want to break out my Niddy to repair my Mega after every fight. :| -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.04 22:08:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 04/02/2010 21:44:35
Originally by: grapez Just give (Gallente) blasterboats more strucuture HP. They're the structure race anyhow, and this with a suitcase would have the same effect as having a few extra plates without the mass penalty. This would be mitigated by the fact that out can't reasonable active tank structure, so while the HP comes out to be essentially "free," it still doesn't amount to an actual tanking option.
Caldari blaster platforms don't have this problem because they generally can fit a decent (regenerative, tankable) shield buffer while also fitting at least one tackle and damage mod.
So.. Expensive.. Or.. Slow.. To.. Repair..
:(
-Liang
Ed: I don't want to break out my Niddy to repair my Mega after every fight. :|
Yeah, I know :(
But that's kind of the point. Blaster setups would get an HP buffer increase that doesn't inhibit their ability to get to target and doesn't amount to yet another across-the-board HP buff, which are the twin issues that stymie blasters. To add some vinegar to this wine, this extra HP wouldn't be able to be repped easily. I think it's a fair balance, as much as I hate "balance," and I'd totally throw a few hull reppers in my Mega's cargohold to make blasters do what they're supposed to do again.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.02.05 01:08:00 -
[74]
well obvious fix would be to increase blasters dps and tracking and the cost of falloff.
That would make very good super short weapon, that would be actually worth compensation of limited range and problem with tracking at very close range( the closer you are the more tracking you need so blasters DO NOT HAVE THE BEST REAL TRACKING)
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Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2010.02.06 18:04:00 -
[75]
IMO allowing a blaster ship to reach optimal should be rewarded with instant death. Currently this isn't the case, which is a problem.
The whole idea behind blasters is: Get close, bbq. Screw up, medical bay. The "screw up" part works quite well. The "get close" part doesn't. This applies to pve in particular, where you fit blasters for sh**s and giggles only. No fancy warping games there.
It's quite simple. The effort of getting that close to your target must be rewarded with enormous damage. Otherwise the whole concept just fails. Blasters are like pumpguns. They should make big f***ing holes.
Long story short: Boost the DPS. Even compared to my railguns the blaster's DPS isn't all that hot when you look at just how much more versatile railguns are, or other types in that regard.
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Foraven
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.06 22:18:00 -
[76]
I find the hybrids to have too many issues. I'm gallente and use both hybrid types, but end up using only the larger variant on all size because i value range and damage over tracking and rate of fire. The issue with blasters is the fallof, i don't mind losing some damage if i can still hit out of optimal (i tend to rig them for fallof). For rail, what i dislike is the lack luster damage at range, what is the use of being able to hit far if they can rep it back with ease?
So what i would do to hybrids :
-Make more variety with ammos, not just go from range to damage. More damage types and other effects would be nice. -Give extra fallof to blasters so we can still do some damage at range. -Give some damage bonuses to rail when at range so they are crippling at optimal and less effective up close (damage wise).
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.07 11:42:00 -
[77]
Blaster PVP needs halve way useful webs to dedicate range within her range and more tracking(like 75% webs + tracking boost) as well as more damage to make it sensible again.
In general go back at least to pre QR levels of usability of the concept.
There is nothing wrong with the range of blasters or the focus, it is not that the concept did not worked in the past. Not any ship type have to be useful in big gangs/fleets, as long as It holds a useful and strong role for other things. Put back the label "solo" at blaster pvp again without all this "Look how much I can tank.", "You need to bring lots of RR." and "Blaster PVP relays on people coming to it, instead the other way around." nonsense.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Johnny Thermidor
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Posted - 2010.02.07 12:26:00 -
[78]
The way to fix this is simply to give ships meant to fit blasters very very fast acceleration so that they can get into the range they need to be fighting at without being torn to shreds by these long-range-short-range battleships.... like the pulsepoc or abby.
Railguns are fine... Javelin ammo needs fixed (and void too for that matter), but otherwise they're a good, useful fleet weapon.
and no, blasters don't need more damage, they already have the best in the game. what they need is either better falloff or better tracking, or possibly both.
that's my two cents.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.07 13:12:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Johnny Thermidor and no, blasters don't need more damage
droneless gank (3 T2 magstabs) neutron deimos with null does more 25dps than a zealot with similar gank fit and scorch. what does the zealot gains with this? 300% more range, maintains nearly the same EHP, and similar speeds.
so no, they do more damage than any other gun yes, but it's a marginal increase.
hell a gank torp raven does the same (if not more) damage as a blasterthron, and it has ~30km range, can pick damage, and it has still 2 utility highs to use, not adding the fact that the tank doesn't suffer by adding damage mods to it.
so no, blasters don't do nearly enough damage.
they are supposed to be superior face-melting point-blank SURPRISE BUTSECKS!1one guns, not "marginally better" guns. I don't need tracking that much, not even falloff. Only damage so that I can come up close and personal to the guy, put a quad-barreled sawed off shotgun on his face and scream "BOOM HULLSHOT!" as I pull the trigger and see his head vaporise. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Kanuo Ashkeron
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.02.07 13:59:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Kanuo Ashkeron on 07/02/2010 13:59:28 The problem seems to be that a blaster boat has a) to less raw damage and b) too less tracking to put the damage on the target. So the obvious would be to increase both, damage output and tracking which would make them too powerful against smaller targets.
Smaller targets not only tank by high traversal but also with a smaller signature radius. So my suggestion is to increase damage, tracking AND signature resolution of blasters.
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Gabriel Karade
Gallente Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2010.02.07 14:33:00 -
[81]
You don't need to worry too much about a blaster tracking boost hurting smaller ships, even around a 400% boost would only put them back on par with pre-QR ability (the days of 90% web), and a 400% boost to anything isn't going to happen.
I've suggested rather, building in the Megathron tracking bonus to all blasters, with a slight boost, and upping the overload damage. Given that overload damage isn't sustainable, you could really justifiy some more dramatic percentages (over a base % damage boost) to give blasters some proper 'Oomph'.
I also believe some ship bonuses need re-working, to seperate out for exmaple, the Megathron and Hyperion, and give ships such as the Diemost a workable role. Won't bore with details, there's already a detailed thread on-going in F&I. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.07 14:56:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron Edited by: Kanuo Ashkeron on 07/02/2010 13:59:28 The problem seems to be that a blaster boat has a) to less raw damage and b) too less tracking to put the damage on the target. So the obvious would be to increase both, damage output and tracking which would make them too powerful against smaller targets.
Smaller targets not only tank by high traversal but also with a smaller signature radius. So my suggestion is to increase damage, tracking AND signature resolution of blasters.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade You don't need to worry too much about a blaster tracking boost hurting smaller ships, even around a 400% boost would only put them back on par with pre-QR ability (the days of 90% web), and a 400% boost to anything isn't going to happen.
I've suggested rather, building in the Megathron tracking bonus to all blasters, with a slight boost, and upping the overload damage. Given that overload damage isn't sustainable, you could really justifiy some more dramatic percentages (over a base % damage boost) to give blasters some proper 'Oomph'.
I also believe some ship bonuses need re-working, to seperate out for exmaple, the Megathron and Hyperion, and give ships such as the Diemost a workable role. Won't bore with details, there's already a detailed thread on-going in F&I.
but why add more tracking? ok sure, maybe boost it by 5%, but adding more tracking to a battleship gun so that it hits frigates better?
I have a better tool for that, it's called T2 warrior. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Gabriel Karade
Gallente Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2010.02.07 15:02:00 -
[83]
Grimpak, I think you misunderstand me, the point I was making is no realistic tracking boost is going to have any effect on BS guns vs frigates, in-fact, the boost I proposed only had a slight improvement on performance vs cruisers - the DPS applied to the cruiser became on a par with a T1 frigate shooting said cruiser.
The idea was to give the Blaster ships a bit more perfomance (read: damage mitigation by having better control over transversal) vs equally sized ships. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.07 15:16:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Grimpak, I think you misunderstand me, the point I was making is no realistic tracking boost is going to have any effect on BS guns vs frigates, in-fact, the boost I proposed only had a slight improvement on performance vs cruisers - the DPS applied to the cruiser became on a par with a T1 frigate shooting said cruiser.
The idea was to give the Blaster ships a bit more perfomance (read: damage mitigation by having better control over transversal) vs equally sized ships.
and I say a massive dps boost should be enough.
sure it won't increase the hit quality, but I want blasters to be what they were in the first days: the same gun that armed b-throns warping at 0 to you and unleash the face****.
blasters rely on the "shoot him dead in 10 secs flat" theory. Improving hit quality vs small-sized targets won't do much more than it does today, and so does fallof. I don't see blasters being acommodated to a role where they are just shy of all the other weapon systems in every stat, except on damage, and still be beaten anyways, because such damage advantage is just a marginal advantage. I want face****, carnage and bloodbath at 2km range, provided by blasters that hurt like hell, even with all the drawbacks they have.
Also, considering the state of blasters after the web changes, I see it from another standpoint: web changes only proved how marginally better blasters were even before that change hit.
TL;DR: blasters nowadays provide just a slim advantage in damage, considering the drawbacks they have, so refine their strong points and give them more damage. Sure you don't get better hit quality like that, but hell, when it hits, it gotta hit for hurt, no matter what.
that and make the hyperion 5%dmg + 5% RoF bonuses. that would be an interesting combo ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Taua Roqa
Minmatar Vast Castle
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Posted - 2010.02.07 15:24:00 -
[85]
I fought a fully t2 fit shieldgank brutix the other week at point blank in my shieldgank hurricane, because i knew it would melt (it never got close to making me hit armour), and i happily agreed to 1v1 a proteus in a hurricane too, as i knew it would never catch me even with it's crafty faction scrambler and mwd overloads - but i got bored then leeroyed at it.
it's probably wrong that i will happily engage a blastership because i know my, now VERY nicely buffed, damage type chosing long range autocannons will shred their ship if i decide to let them get in range and give them a false hope of killing me.
personally, i would definitely mix EW in on a blasterboat, they got big fat dronebays and it's perhaps a mistake to put hammerheads etc in them, perhaps some mix of web/damp drones (do said drones need a little love or perhaps blasterships can bonuses to them?) or something?
it's not right that a class of weapons seems so limited and predictable, i'd like to fly a blastership one day but only if they get a little love, hehe/
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.07 15:38:00 -
[86]
After reading this thread I am glad that both: 1. CCP does the balancing. 2. They don't listen to their customers.
-------------------------------------------------- I'm so Old I can remember when QQ was TT
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.07 15:43:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Cipher Jones After reading this thread I am glad that both: 1. CCP does the balancing. 2. They don't listen to their customers.
do give your opinion then ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.02.07 15:49:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Oriss Amarr
Originally by: Veldsparmonster
Originally by: Oriss Amarr All battleships can hit 250km easy, so basically all the range translates into (theoretically) is increased DPS since you have to fit less mods to reach maximum rage.
250km armageddon, abbadon, tempest, maelstrom, hyperion, megathron, dominix fit plz.
I meant to say every RACE has a BS that can hit it, not every bs.
Shows how much I sniperthron. They changed the range bonus on it. So even with the "longest turrets in the game" gallente can't fit a long range sniper. Cool.
wtb 250km minmatar bs
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Ashira Twilight
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Posted - 2010.02.07 18:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 well obvious fix would be to increase blasters dps and tracking and the cost of falloff.
That would make very good super short weapon, that would be actually worth compensation of limited range and problem with tracking at very close range( the closer you are the more tracking you need so blasters DO NOT HAVE THE BEST REAL TRACKING)
This IMO.
Everybody whines that blasters aren't any good in large gangs because of fights starting at 15+km. It's like they're asking for the same range as lasers while keeping their superior dps and damage types. That or they're asking for 879238902358790890 dps at the ranges they get now.
I think lasers(beams and pulse) are right where they should be, good range and okay dps when resistances are applied.
I think rails are well below where they should be, but a fix for them would be muuuuuuuuch harder than fixing blasters.
Autocannons are more than a little too flexible now, IMO. I like the changes to arty.
Blasters need to do what they already do better, which is getting in your face and putting a chainsaw down your throat. A damage boost on the large blasters, and a tracking increase for large/medium. The web nerf really really really hurt, and they need more tracking to offset that.
But TBH, I think everybody that thinks blasters should be 95% effective at 95% of all gang engagement ranges to be complete morons. The previous threads have made me bitter.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.07 18:33:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/02/2010 18:34:26
Originally by: Ashira Twilight
Everybody whines that blasters aren't any good in large gangs because of fights starting at 15+km. It's like they're asking for the same range as lasers while keeping their superior dps and damage types. That or they're asking for 879238902358790890 dps at the ranges they get now.
...
But TBH, I think everybody that thinks blasters should be 95% effective at 95% of all gang engagement ranges to be complete morons. The previous threads have made me bitter.
Way to hyperbole there. Nobody's asking for instapopping Titans with BS blasters. What we're asking for is for it to be worthwhile to haul our happy asses around in anything larger than a 2v2. As things stand, it is almost impossible to make up for the extra damage a pulse ship gets just from being able to hit further away.
I can almost agree to your intended boost - except that I think you should take your intended boost to tracking and push it over to damage. Damage is always useful, where tracking is only conditionally useful. And even leaving all other things the same (optimal, falloff, etc) I don't think that'd make blasters 95% effective in 95% of of the gang situations. It would just be nice to be more useful than 15% effective in 99% of all gang situations.
Quote: Autocannons are more than a little too flexible now, IMO. I like the changes to arty.
Eh, I don't find ACs to be any better than pulse.
-Liang
Ed: Your post makes me think you trained lasers. C/D? For the record, I have all racial BS at 5 and can use all T2 large weapons, and my ship of choice (even post projectile boost) is the ARMAGEDDON. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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Ashira Twilight
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Posted - 2010.02.07 19:42:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 07/02/2010 19:50:44 Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 07/02/2010 19:49:49 Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 07/02/2010 19:49:11 I trained lasers on another account back when they were "teh suck" (which I did on purpose because I wanted to be "different") and eventually trained them on this character too because of the awesomesauce of sansha ships.
I trained gallente and caldari first, because when I was new they were what everybody told me to train. Gallente for pvp and caldari for pve.
I don't disagree with you Liang, and I wouldn't toss you into the idiot pile. Of course, I do think the autocannon changes went a little too far. I always thought the problems stemmed from the ships, not the weapons(excluding artillery which needed the boost real bad).
What I've seen in the previous threads are people whining endlessly about how blasters can't compete at 15+km ranges, that they don't do enough dps at those ranges, and that they can't get into their sweetspot fast enough to outdamage amarr ships.
In pvp, all that matters is 0km to 24km in 95% of situations. So, if blasters were made to be equal with pulse lasers at 15km to 20km the whines would just start right back up because now the pulse laser guys can't compete. All the while the guys using autos are kiting blasters and out-tracking lasers. [fail auto stealth whine]
I wholeheartedly believe in a balance between the weapon systems. Amarr dominate 15-45km, gallente dominate 0km[sucks to be them], minmatar have HUGE flexibility(except in the battleship department, but with the recent changes I haven't made my mind up about that yet).
TL;DR Ash thinks that Liang has the superior experience, but thinks that blasters should have more damage AND tracking because the web changes crippled them in in-your-face-gank-mode even though the tracking wouldn't help all that much.
typo edit wtf can't type today
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Trader20
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Posted - 2010.02.07 20:01:00 -
[92]
If ur that far away with a blaster boat just warp out and warp back in closer.. Only reason ppl think pulses are uber is because they have nice range for gate/station camps but when you warp right ontop of somebody in a blaster boat they perform. And no tracking won't be an issue because ur target should have 2+ webs on him anyway.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.07 20:24:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Ashira Twilight TL;DR Ash thinks that Liang has the superior experience, but thinks that blasters should have more damage AND tracking because the web changes crippled them in in-your-face-gank-mode even though the tracking wouldn't help all that much.
I would push more for damage than tracking tbh.
whatever it is, they need to do more damage. Having marginally better damage but 3x less the range it makes them not that great.
and no, no falloff nor optimal boost. that's bad. a weapon that can visibly and without no shadow of doubt, outperform everything in the 0<->10km bracket is what I wish for blasters. and I'm talking about 15%+ increase in DPS here. people can decrease falloff or whatever, I don't care. I want my sawed-off shotgun with explosive pellets, and I want to put it in someone's throat and pull the trigger.
(ok it's somewhat gory, but you get the point )
but that's me thinking about the days of olde, when saw a b-thron landing at 5km of you and all that came up in your head was "************************ WARP OUT FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-" ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2010.02.07 22:26:00 -
[94]
Great, those days of Megas beeing the only useful battleship are gone. And I hope they won't come back. At least PvP in eve is now more then get asap in a Mega, approach, point, web, F1-F7.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.07 22:49:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Jacob Stov Great, those days of Megas beeing the only useful battleship are gone. And I hope they won't come back. At least PvP in eve is now more then get asap in a Mega, approach, point, web, F1-F7.
yes, like every fight in EVE takes place at 15km range. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Xing Fey
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Posted - 2010.02.07 23:19:00 -
[96]
I'd love to see hybrids get an overheating bonus where lasers get cap-use and projectiles get tracking...
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Gabriel Karade
Gallente Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2010.02.08 18:59:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Jacob Stov Great, those days of Megas beeing the only useful battleship are gone. And I hope they won't come back. At least PvP in eve is now more then get asap in a Mega, approach, point, web, F1-F7.
Being perfectly honest though, those days never existed:
The original 'Gankageddon' with 8x Heat Sinks? For sure... The Raven when Siege launchers could fire Torpedos or Cruise missiles, with said missiles doing full damage to all ships? Definitely...
The blaster Megathron? not even close...
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:49:00 -
[98]
I think the problem with Gallente having been "awesome" was primarily due to people not knowing how to fit ships. For instance, the Drake has always been better than the Myrm. The best a Myrm (even the 5 Ogre Myrm) could possibly hope for was to cap the Drake out and warp away.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Asuka Smith
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.08 23:11:00 -
[99]
Gallente need to use shields. Combining the tanking style that makes them the slowest, and then the guns that require you move the fastest? It is stupid.
Right now the best fits of mine that use blasters are shield tanked anyways and I just lose a bonus. Maybe if the active armor tanking rigs did not impact speed it would make blasters viable as a small-gang active tanking weapon (that is niche, but at least it is a role at all).
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