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Ann Tarloir
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Posted - 2010.02.05 11:04:00 -
[1]
I was wondering if there is a list anywhere of items which have no t2 bpo (i.e. items that can only be built by invention, such as a salvager II)
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.05 11:47:00 -
[2]
Everything that was added after invention was introduced has no T2 BPO. There's a list somewhere but I can't find it fast enough (tried a couple of searches but always only found the SHORT versions of the list, hadn't bookmarked the long version).
Either way IT DOES NOT MATTER which items have T2 BPOs, since whenever invention is even remotely profitable for it, your competition is always other inventors, NOT BPO OWNERS. Most of the profitable-to-invent items are actually items that DO have T2 BPOs, while plenty of items that have no T2 BPOs invent at a loss because a lot of inventors just blindly invent them without doing the math wrongfully believing it must be profitable just because there's no BPO for it.
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Ann Tarloir
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Posted - 2010.02.05 13:41:00 -
[3]
Thanks Akita, that's exactly the information i was after
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.05 14:03:00 -
[4]
Akita just nailed it. Nice. |
Gavin Miner
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Posted - 2010.02.06 00:50:00 -
[5]
except ships.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.06 01:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gavin Miner except ships.
Item type is completely irrelevant. So no, no "except ships". Ships too.
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Don Pellegrino
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.06 04:01:00 -
[7]
ships just tend to have lower profit margins because for some reason people prefer to build ships over modules
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.06 05:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gavin Miner except ships.
I made a Kronos to sell, and after I did the math I kept it instead because the profit margin was so damn low. Considering how much time is needed to make ships compared to other T2 items inventing ships will remain an idle pass-time for me not a money maker.
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Vokradacka
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Posted - 2010.02.06 17:41:00 -
[9]
So there is no problem because invetion guys are blind noobs without brain.
Akita T have probably many BPOs..good PR....
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.06 18:11:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/02/2010 18:12:07
Originally by: Vokradacka Akita T have probably many [T2] BPOs
Try again. I have none. And I never had any. I'm a trader, not a manufacturer Being a trader however means understanding why prices are where they are, so you know when to buy or when to keep out of it.
Originally by: Vokradacka So there is no problem because invetion guys are blind noobs without brain.
The facts speak for themselves, but that isn't necessarily the only possible conclusion. All you need is several inventors that don't do the math on a low-volume-traded item, and then even those other that DID the math trying to get a minimal profit will end up engaged in a price war that will force them to either keep their assets locked down and unable to move to something else more profitable, or dump the stock below manufacture price just to recover as much ISK as possible as fast as possible. It's just that for items without T2 BPOs, especially for those with low trade volumes, there is a greater chance to encounter invention competitors that don't do the math at all (or don't do it properly).
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.02.06 22:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T It's just that for items without T2 BPOs, especially for those with low trade volumes, there is a greater chance to encounter invention competitors that don't do the math at all (or don't do it properly).
If the market is small enough, and you're at the right point of the cycle, it can be amusing to buy out the entire supply and enjoy the absence of competition for a while. I did this a few times in the aftermath of various new T2 items becoming inventable, before things had fully stabilised. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
TigerXtrm
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Posted - 2010.02.06 23:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Akita T Everything that was added after invention was introduced has no T2 BPO. There's a list somewhere but I can't find it fast enough (tried a couple of searches but always only found the SHORT versions of the list, hadn't bookmarked the long version).
Either way IT DOES NOT MATTER which items have T2 BPOs, since whenever invention is even remotely profitable for it, your competition is always other inventors, NOT BPO OWNERS. Most of the profitable-to-invent items are actually items that DO have T2 BPOs, while plenty of items that have no T2 BPOs invent at a loss because a lot of inventors just blindly invent them without doing the math wrongfully believing it must be profitable just because there's no BPO for it.
I might be missing something, but I never understood that. On one side you have an invented BPC with a ME of -4, on the other side a researched T2 BPO with an ME of 50 (I assume ME works the same for T2 BPO's as it does for T1?). So how can an invented BPC compete with a BPO at any level? That's like saying an ME100 Battleship BPO is worse than a ME0 print.
I really don't get it. Higher ME = lower component requirements = less cost to build = lower price on the market = high profit. How do ME -4 BPC's compete with that at all?
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Ruziel
Minmatar Twilight Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2010.02.07 00:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: TigerXtrm
I might be missing something, but I never understood that. On one side you have an invented BPC with a ME of -4, on the other side a researched T2 BPO with an ME of 50 (I assume ME works the same for T2 BPO's as it does for T1?). So how can an invented BPC compete with a BPO at any level? That's like saying an ME100 Battleship BPO is worse than a ME0 print.
I really don't get it. Higher ME = lower component requirements = less cost to build = lower price on the market = high profit. How do ME -4 BPC's compete with that at all?
Volume. You can only build so many at a time with a single BPO, whereas an inventor can build several BPCs at a time. Sell twice the items at half the profit and you're still making the same. Sure the BPO holder can invent too, but they only get and advantage with those produced off the BPO.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.07 01:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: TigerXtrm I might be missing something, but I never understood that. On one side you have an invented BPC with a ME of -4, on the other side a researched T2 BPO with an ME of 50 (I assume ME works the same for T2 BPO's as it does for T1?). So how can an invented BPC compete with a BPO at any level? That's like saying an ME100 Battleship BPO is worse than a ME0 print.
The key words here were "for items where invention is even remotely profitable", meaning those items where the volume used up game-wide are slightly higher than the numbers all the corresponding BPOs could possibly provide.
In the "invention profitable" extreme you have, for instance, the demand of Hulks - which is pretty much almost an order of magnitude above the amounts all Hulk BPOs that exist combined could possibly manufacture. Most damage mods also fall into this exact same category, and so do a lot of other popular items like weapon systems, armor repairers, shield boosters, all kinds of hardeners and cap rechargers. For all those types of items, you're never directly competing with BPO owners - sure, they make more ISK per sale, but it's not THEM you have to worry about, it's the countless other inventors that try to get into the action.
On the other side of the extreme you have things like T2 small armor plates or some other item almost nobody ever wants to use because better alternatives exist... and for those items, even BPO owners would have trouble making any profit, and so most of those T2 BPOs just sit unused somewhere. Invention of such items would be basically pointless - even if those T2 BPOs would not exist, nobody would buy the invented product (barely anybody buys it now, when it's cheap... almost nobody would buy it if it would be invention-priced).
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Meret'Seger
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Posted - 2010.02.07 02:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: TigerXtrm
Originally by: Akita T Everything that was added after invention was introduced has no T2 BPO. There's a list somewhere but I can't find it fast enough (tried a couple of searches but always only found the SHORT versions of the list, hadn't bookmarked the long version).
Either way IT DOES NOT MATTER which items have T2 BPOs, since whenever invention is even remotely profitable for it, your competition is always other inventors, NOT BPO OWNERS. Most of the profitable-to-invent items are actually items that DO have T2 BPOs, while plenty of items that have no T2 BPOs invent at a loss because a lot of inventors just blindly invent them without doing the math wrongfully believing it must be profitable just because there's no BPO for it.
I might be missing something, but I never understood that. On one side you have an invented BPC with a ME of -4, on the other side a researched T2 BPO with an ME of 50 (I assume ME works the same for T2 BPO's as it does for T1?). So how can an invented BPC compete with a BPO at any level? That's like saying an ME100 Battleship BPO is worse than a ME0 print.
I really don't get it. Higher ME = lower component requirements = less cost to build = lower price on the market = high profit. How do ME -4 BPC's compete with that at all?
Another thing to consider is that for a lot of module invention the ML makes little or no difference anyway. The amount of components is so low that a higher ML will not change it no matter what. For example if you invent a EANM ll bpc, it will probably use the same amount of components as a t2 bpo with ML500, ie. 1 or 2 of each. Only difference is that the bpo would use slightly less trit and pyerite.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2010.02.07 06:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: TigerXtrm How do ME -4 BPC's compete with that at all?
The answer? You don't compete with that. You pick another item, or you sell into the market which BPOs can not provide because the market demands too much volume.
The price of items will continue to rise until the demand stops rising due to the high price, or the supply increases (and since the BPO supply is constant the supply increase must come from inventors). So the price will rise until people think it's worth inventing, totally independent of the amount the BPO owner is making on that item, how much they make does not in any way effect how much you make inventing it. The price for any item as such is set as the lowest amount enough inventors to fill the supply, think their invention efforts are worth.
For items where the demand doesn't outstrip the BPO supply the profit for BPO owners is between 0 and -ve. At the very most they make much less than they would using that one slot to invent something more profitable.
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Gobbins
Minmatar eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.07 13:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tellenta
Originally by: Gavin Miner except ships.
I made a Kronos to sell, and after I did the math I kept it instead because the profit margin was so damn low. Considering how much time is needed to make ships compared to other T2 items inventing ships will remain an idle pass-time for me not a money maker.
its because of all those rich ass Kronos bpo holders >:(
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.07 18:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gobbins its because of all those rich ass Kronos bpo holders >:(
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JIta Bob
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Posted - 2010.02.07 19:21:00 -
[19]
Going back to the original topic: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that there is an easy way to check what items do have BPOs. BPOs are technically tradeable on the market, even though no one ever actually trades them that way. Therefore, you can find market entries for them under the Blueprints tab in your market pane. If an item has no BPO listed there then it doesn't exist.
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Onde Bubber
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Posted - 2010.02.08 14:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: JIta Bob If an item has no BPO listed there then it doesn't exist.
Idea is good but flawed. You only get a subset of the items that does not have a BPO - i.e. the items that were introduced after invention. You do however not get the elements of the list that once had a BPO but has been destroyed due to circumstances such as for example transport 'accidents'
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Itako Kuzume
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Posted - 2010.02.08 15:38:00 -
[21]
Are there items where all the BPO's have been destroyed? Is it even possible to know this?
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.08 17:23:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 08/02/2010 17:25:01 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 08/02/2010 17:24:01 Whenever one is popped it is usually announced so I'm sure someone keeps tabs on that. This someone also doesn't tell anyone so they can nab said bpo's as they will be more rare.
Another way bpo's are lost is through banned accounts.
Final way is through people that quit. I'd wager though you would have to be either totally alone ingame to not know someone to give it to or real ****ed and just quit. Most guys that quit just liquidate anyway and sell their isk for real isk...against Eula but they aren't coming back anyway right? |
Itako Kuzume
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Posted - 2010.02.08 20:10:00 -
[23]
I am aware of all that. However, the missing piece of information is how many BPO's existed to begin with for any particular item. It makes a big difference if item X had 100 BPO's originally and 10 destroyed or 20 BPO's and 5 destroyed.
Bubber was also implying there were certain items that it was known BPO's no longer existed, even though they had at one time. I don't see how there is any way to know that unless you knew how many BPO's there were to start.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.02.08 23:28:00 -
[24]
It has been a looooong time since I heard the numbers but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Ammo 64? Modules 32? Ships 8-16?
THEN ccp released tech 2 bpo's again right befor invention and more were added and those numbers are not known specifically?
Help? |
jetfighter
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Posted - 2010.02.09 07:51:00 -
[25]
I was PVE for 3 years and never know nothing about R&D, I have a basic question now: "If one can make a T2 BPO through reverse engineering the corresponding T2 BPC? Or the reverse engineering only works for T3?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.09 08:17:00 -
[26]
Reverse engineering is for T3 only, and it only creates T3 BPCs. Invention only creates T2 BPCs. You can not create any T2 nor T3 BPOs.
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jetfighter
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Posted - 2010.02.09 08:24:00 -
[27]
Thanks, but the current game is not fare, for the T2 BPO should all be eleminated.
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Jurinak
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Posted - 2010.02.09 08:48:00 -
[28]
Originally by: jetfighter Thanks, but the current game is not fare, for the T2 BPO should all be eleminated.
yes, and and I hope you agree that we eliminate some of your skillpoints too with the same patch, because its not fair that you are so much better with this points then other
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jetfighter
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Posted - 2010.02.09 09:13:00 -
[29]
Not a bad idea, the SPs should be able to be converted into a "X" item, and let the free market works, in this way, more new baies will jump in, which will keep the game blooming. Most my fiends did not joint me in this game is because you, grand papas, sacred them to death...
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