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LadyLubU2
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.14 12:10:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: LadyLubU2 Seriously....falcon used to be pretty op...but dramiel kills all records: Half sig radius of a inty, faster than an inty, damage/hp equal to af...
It screams nerf me, even though i like to fly em (hell who doenst love flying fotm).
nerfing only the dronebay would be enough for me, as for the rest, pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2.
also FOTM means that of all the encounters with the dram, only a small margin will be piloted by good pilots, the rest being "meh".
final thing is, drams die quite easily for many thing that kill frigates aswell, one of them being the next in line of the same "race" as the dramiel.
Yes, ofcoarse pirate ships may be better than t2, but as it currently stands the dramiel makes all inties/af's completely useless. And thats not how it should be tbh.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.14 12:17:00 -
[152]
Neat.
Another topic that brings out some of the most mind numbingling ignorant arguments I've ever seen.
Bust out the scientologists and this thread will be complete.
Is the Dramiel overpowered? Maybe but I don't fly frigs often so I don't much care if it's changed or not.
Let's go ahead and say it isn't overpowered at all and the most balanced ship in the game (lol). It costs a lot, I can link anecdotal evidence through KMs that people don't know how to fly them, they CAN be caught and killed, one ship has to be the best, your afraid or mad about the ship, stop whining, bring friends, are not good arguments to prove your point or help in your "dont nerf my ship" cause.
You see these trotted out individually here and there but to get all of them in one thread for one ship is impressive.
But please, continue.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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Walker Bulldog
Minmatar VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2010.02.14 13:02:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Gorefacer
It costs a lot
80-90m is "a lot of money" these days? LOL. It's not even the most expensive frigate out there, Daredevil costs 100m+.
In any case, Dramiel will get hit with the nerf stick eventually. Anything that becomes too popular does - ask all the nano pilots, and all the falcon pilots, etc, etc.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.02.14 18:39:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Gorefacer
Let's go ahead and say it isn't overpowered at all and the most balanced ship in the game (lol). It costs a lot, I can link anecdotal evidence through KMs that people don't know how to fly them, they CAN be caught and killed, one ship has to be the best, your afraid or mad about the ship, stop whining, bring friends, are not good arguments to prove your point or help in your "dont nerf my ship" cause.
It costs a lot because it is popular, not because it is that expensive to produce.
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.02.14 20:10:00 -
[155]
12 man dramiel fleet sys-k fleet yesterday in curse.
yeah the ship is fine. they just all fly it cause it's fun. And having fun has nothing to do with nigh invincibility :D :D
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.02.14 21:40:00 -
[156]
Originally by: chrisss0r 12 man dramiel fleet sys-k fleet yesterday in curse.
yeah the ship is fine. they just all fly it cause it's fun. And having fun has nothing to do with nigh invincibility :D :D
It was SYS-K though.
It wouldn't really matter if they were flying Atrons or Dramiels, they will end up dying like idiots regardless.
- Intigo
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cearaen
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Posted - 2010.02.14 21:55:00 -
[157]
Originally by: LadyLubU2
Yes, of coarse pirate ships may be better than t2, but as it currently stands the dramiel makes all inties/af's completely useless. And thats not how it should be tbh.
Well you forgot t1 frigs. WerenÆt they made useless by afs and inties? Well I suppose they were except for one thing that you and your ônerf the dramielö posters refuses to look at: the pricetag. ThatÆs where your argument is weakest so you pretend we are talking about ships that cost the same. If you want to take your uninsurable 120million isk frigate into a gang/fleet in order to hold a point go ahead. But for me I will stick with my merlin for that. The merlin will tackle most things just as well as the dramiel and I can bring about 30 of them for the cost of 1 dramiel. Yeah I will only do about 2/3s the damage but I wonÆt blow *hours* of time grinding isk if I end up getting primaried. The setups we see complained about probably cost about 120 million. For a ship that has about 6k ehp and 150 dps no one can argue this is a good way to spend money in a fleet of any size. ItÆs a good ship to go solo and thatÆs about it. ThatÆs what it was intended to do. ItÆs a good anti blob ship if you have the ******* to fly one in pvp. But if you donÆt have the courage to fly a frigate that costs that much thenà wellà complain on the forums that you donÆt want others to fly them either. I think its balanced based on the cost of the ship. If you donÆt think its balanced then how much should the dramiel cost? Due to the limited power grid and cpu you typically have to put on very expensive faction mods. So all told your looking at @ 120 million. If the dramiel is too powerfull what should the cost be? I say leave the ship as it is for those who want the thrill of higher stakes for higher rewards. But if you want to nerf it put an isk value on it. Let us know what you think this frigate should cost as it is.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.15 00:06:00 -
[158]
Sigh. Not more of this bull**** about "it's ok if it's overpowered because it's so expensive". If you actually believe this (and aren't just saying it to keep CCP from nerfing your pwnmobile), I have a little scenario for you:
Let's say the poor Guristas get tired of having a bad faction frigate and decide to boost the Worm. Its new bonuses are as follows:
Caldari Frigate: 19% shield resistances per level Gallente Frigate: 1,000,000,000% smartbomb damage per level (yes, this means it will insta-pop titans) Role bonus: 500km range for all smartbombs
Price of the Worm will quickly reach insane levels, probably making it the single most expensive ship in the game. It will be an awesome high-risk, high-reward ship: those who can afford to fly one will have awesome fights and tons of fun, but a single Worm loss will be crippling for all but the richest players (and it's killable, just bring a Worm of your own).
Now, do you think the new Worm would be balanced?
If yes, you are an idiot, probably a troll, and do not belong anywhere near game balance decisions.
If no, you are admitting that your pro-Dramiel argument is flawed. Therefore I do not ever want to hear it again. -----------
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Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2010.02.15 00:26:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Sigh. Not more of this bull**** about "it's ok if it's overpowered because it's so expensive". If you actually believe this (and aren't just saying it to keep CCP from nerfing your pwnmobile), I have a little scenario for you:
Let's say the poor Guristas get tired of having a bad faction frigate and decide to boost the Worm. Its new bonuses are as follows:
Caldari Frigate: 19% shield resistances per level Gallente Frigate: 1,000,000,000% smartbomb damage per level (yes, this means it will insta-pop titans) Role bonus: 500km range for all smartbombs
Price of the Worm will quickly reach insane levels, probably making it the single most expensive ship in the game. It will be an awesome high-risk, high-reward ship: those who can afford to fly one will have awesome fights and tons of fun, but a single Worm loss will be crippling for all but the richest players (and it's killable, just bring a Worm of your own).
Now, do you think the new Worm would be balanced?
If yes, you are an idiot, probably a troll, and do not belong anywhere near game balance decisions.
If no, you are admitting that your pro-Dramiel argument is flawed. Therefore I do not ever want to hear it again.
Well until the dramiel gets bonuses similar to the ones you listed above, I don't think it's fair to call all of the people against this thread wrong. The dramiel is good. Yes, very good. But That doesn't mean you have to nerf it. It is not game breaking. Falcons were game breaking. You basically had to bring a falcon of your own to counter the falcon (or more) that you knew the other side would have. Dramiels aren't like this..You don't need to bring a dramiel to kill a dramiel.
Dramiels are good, and are very good at killing other frigates, but if it wasn't good at that why would you fly it?
Curses are very very good at killing slow cap dependent ships. That means they must be nerfed correct? cause they're really good at something?
People avoid curses like the plague when you know you can't win, so just do the same with dramiels...
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Onin Ra
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.02.15 00:50:00 -
[160]
How the hell do you get off comparing a ship, that is capable of slowly killing slow cap dependand cruisers to a ship that is totally dominanting a WHOLE CLASS of ships is beyond me. --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.15 01:13:00 -
[161]
tbh when all's said and done, CCP will nerf the dram so hard that it will return to being useless like it was 6 months ago.
the question is "when" ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.02.15 10:41:00 -
[162]
In FW atm theres a dramiel in nealry every gang, and solo somthing like 10% are drams.
thats alot, where ARE these coming from?
seriously did a BPO drop like the cynabal one that somone somwhere is making a mint from?
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Cearain
Caldari ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.02.15 15:04:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Sigh. Not more of this bull**** about "it's ok if it's overpowered because it's so expensive". If you actually believe this (and aren't just saying it to keep CCP from nerfing your pwnmobile), I have a little scenario for you:
Its irrational to talk about a ship being over powered without some sort of baseline. The most useful baseline is Isk cost/insurability.
To ignore the cost is like arguing about whether a mile is a "long distance" or a "short distance." With no framework to operate in, its silly to argue about that. Isk/insurability is basically the framework we need to discuss whether a ship is overpowered.
Do you think tech 1 battships are more powerfull thant tech 2 battleships and faction battleships? Is that why we see more people bring tech 1 battleships to pvp fights? Are tech 1 rigs really better than tech 2 rigs and thats why we see so many more tech 1 rigs in pvp? I could go on and on. You must think all capital ships are overpowered, so I won't even discuss that with you. I could go on and on but suffice to say when you ignore the price tag your arguments become silly.
If you have 120 million isk to spend you can either buy 2 fully fit battlecruisers (really when we consider insurance you can buy 3) or you can buy a frigate that is very fast and does 160 dps and has a 6k ehp. Is the dramiel so clearly the more powerful option? Maybe the dramiel will be able to escape, but it will never hold the battlefield.
You may say no we should only compare it to other frigates. But thats myopic. I mean isn't it possible that frigates are underpowered compared to other ships in eve? AFs are basically the same thing as tech 1 cruisers only worse. And even if you compare it to other frigates - as long as you don't ignore the pricetag its really not overpowered.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.02.15 15:13:00 -
[164]
Edited by: chrisss0r on 15/02/2010 15:14:38 Wow you are absolutely right. Isk is a very important balancing factor.
People fit t1 rigs instead of t2 because of the high cost a t2 rig is over a t1 rig considering the small edge it gives. Also people fly battleships instead of marauders not only for the fear of ecm but also due to cost.
Now we have a frigate that costs ALOT more than the t2 frigates. As you stated people can choose between 2-3 fully fitted battlecruisers and a dramiel.
AND STILL THE DRAMIEL IS THE MOST POPULAR FRIGATE. What other indication of it being totally overpowered do u need? You have a much larger price to pay and a crapton of people are willing to pay it because the dramiel is so ****ing off.
You don't see machariels and nightmares used like crazy because the cost to advantage relation is not broken. For the dramiel it is.
Too bad all you "it's so expensive!!!!!!" fanboys are giving the best arguments for the dramiel beeing overpowered.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.02.15 15:36:00 -
[165]
the whines are making the dramiel overpowered.
"oh noes a dram, i heard of those they are invincable and do a millionty dps eek runzor!"
in realisty they are simply a frig with very low dps at the range they operate at, low HP. They go down easyer than most saders or claws to the usual pvp suspects.
When a great pilot that has money spare because he doesnt die, he will buy a dram and rock in it because hes already a good pilot. On average, drams are nothing special, in the right hands they are very effective with good survivability but they are far from overpowered.
suck it up and stop running from these goats inside a wolf's skin in a sheeps clothing.
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Kapse Locke
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.15 15:47:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Dr Fighter In FW atm theres a dramiel in nealry every gang, and solo somthing like 10% are drams.
thats alot, where ARE these coming from?
seriously did a BPO drop like the cynabal one that somone somwhere is making a mint from?
I could swear I saw a thread in the recent past discussing the fact that at some point previously a database-entry FUBAR committed by one of the men behind the curtain allowed BPOs of a faction ship to drop for players. On the one hand I expect that was cleared up rather quickly, on the other - nothing would surprise me.
That being said, maybe people are simply working the supply to meet the new demand and it isn't as if there weren't numerous such ships sitting in storage, gathering dust.
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JASON W0RTHING
The Ministry Of Agro-Culture
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Posted - 2010.02.15 15:59:00 -
[167]
Having never flown a dramiel or killed one I don't feel particularly qualified to comment on this topic. However, let me just insert some of my own observations.
Observation A. Everyone is using the dramiel who can afford it. Generally speaking, when everyone is using something they are using it for a reason, a.k.a. it is overpowered.
Observation B. The people who say isk is a balancing factor are RIGHT (in a way). Isk is one of the main balancing factors in EVE. Problem is despite the isk cost everyone and their mother is using the dramiel and (this is key) not everyone and their mother is using the other pirate frigates equally. So either drams are op, other pirate frigs are underpowered, or (could it be?) both.
Observation C. The changes to the faction frigs are relatively new. Please give CCP a chance to tweak them, maybe buff the hookbill a bit, nerf the drams drone bay, whatever. Until then, either fly a dramiel, fly in gangs, or fly in dramiel gangs.
Opinion A. The dramiel is not game-breakingly overpowered. You may disagree with me on this but normal frig counters still generally work against the dramiel, just not as well. So calling for massive nerfs is a bit overdramatic. The dramiel needs tweaking not being beaten to death with the nerfbat.
That's all I have to say.
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2010.02.15 16:11:00 -
[168]
Originally by: JASON W0RTHING
Observation A. Everyone is using the dramiel who can afford it. Generally speaking, when everyone is using something they are using it for a reason, a.k.a. it is overpowered.
Raven for NPC?
tengu for t3?
seriously, somthing has to be 'best' if you nerf the dram the next closest thing will be best and everyone will use that instead.
If intys were a bit faster, other cheaper dual prop favorates would be used.
no one says the dram does too much damage. no one says the dram has too much range. its the speed it gets and how its faster than intys means intys cant tackle it like they should (as the ship class in game designed to tackle everything and anything)
chop its speed down to that of the slowest inty and ballence will be once again restored, ballence i say, people will still fly the dram!!!
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.02.15 16:23:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** chop its speed down to that of the slowest inty and ballence will be once again restored, ballence i say, people will still fly the dram!!!
really? in that case I would fly the daredevil, or if I'm cheap, the taranis, because these two options do more damage than the dram.
I don't have any illusions. CCP will nerf this ship into oblivion. It's their policy. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.15 16:27:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** seriously, somthing has to be 'best' if you nerf the dram the next closest thing will be best and everyone will use that instead.
Theres nothing "next closest" that can fit mse buffer, dualprop, neut and is faster than intys.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.02.15 16:41:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** chop its speed down to that of the slowest inty and ballence will be once again restored, ballence i say, people will still fly the dram!!!
really? in that case I would fly the daredevil, or if I'm cheap, the taranis, because these two options do more damage than the dram.
I don't have any illusions. CCP will nerf this ship into oblivion. It's their policy.
A 'ranis-speed Dram would have two significant advantages over the (blaster) DD/ranis: EHP and the ability to do good damage at 7+ km. It wouldn't be stripped of its GTFO button by any means, just have it toned down a little.
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Tatanya Darkdawn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.15 17:41:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Kendon Rid**** seriously, somthing has to be 'best' if you nerf the dram the next closest thing will be best and everyone will use that instead.
Just out of curiosity, what was the best frigate before the changes to faction ships?
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Cearain
Caldari ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.02.15 18:01:00 -
[173]
Originally by: chrisss0r Edited by: chrisss0r on 15/02/2010 15:14:38 ... AND STILL THE DRAMIEL IS THE MOST POPULAR FRIGATE. ...
Yeah right. Are you a troll or what? While you are spewing BS why not say its the most popular ship in all of eve? Eve publishes what ships are purchased most. You and I both know dramiels will not be at the top of the list for frigates. So why spew this obvious BS? Its because your mind tells you that you know dramiels are fairly well balanced when you consider their cost, but emotionally you are too attached to this argument to admit it. So you come up with some BS to support your claim.
Would you care to bet that in the next eve report Dramiels are not the best sellers for frigates? Not to mention that you are comparing them only to frigates. Again frigates - especially tech 2 frigs- are underpowered for the isk payout.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.15 18:19:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Tatanya Darkdawn Just out of curiosity, what was the best frigate before the changes to faction ships?
That is kind of the point, there wasn't one. You saw Rail/Blaster/Dual-prop Taranis', Ishkur's, Crusader's, Rifter's, Jags/Wolves , Punisher's, EAS's etc. Practically every conceivable hull was seen on a daily basis.
Quantum Rise blew the small hull playing-field wide open, even the lame ducks: 'destroyers', found a use as the principal counter to the broad range of AB fitted frigates that suddenly appeared.
That is the main reason why I am so infuriated with the god-like Dramiel. It is supplanted 90%+ of all other small ships .. no matter what you want to do, the Dramiel will outperform all other hulls when fitted for it except for the specials such as EAS. Such a ship is an abomination in a game that prides itself on variation, choice and unpredictability.
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Cearain
Caldari ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.02.15 18:47:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Tatanya Darkdawn Just out of curiosity, what was the best frigate before the changes to faction ships?
That is kind of the point, there wasn't one. You saw Rail/Blaster/Dual-prop Taranis', Ishkur's, Crusader's, Rifter's, Jags/Wolves , Punisher's, EAS's etc. Practically every conceivable hull was seen on a daily basis.
Quantum Rise blew the small hull playing-field wide open, even the lame ducks: 'destroyers', found a use as the principal counter to the broad range of AB fitted frigates that suddenly appeared.
That is the main reason why I am so infuriated with the god-like Dramiel. It is supplanted 90%+ of all other small ships .. no matter what you want to do, the Dramiel will outperform all other hulls when fitted for it except for the specials such as EAS. Such a ship is an abomination in a game that prides itself on variation, choice and unpredictability.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.15 18:47:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Cearain Would you care to bet that in the next eve report Dramiels are not the best sellers for frigates?
You're an idiot.
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Cearain
Caldari ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:38:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Cearain Would you care to bet that in the next eve report Dramiels are not the best sellers for frigates?
You're an idiot.
I often appear that way to morons.
I take it you think people will buy more dramiels than any other frigate.
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Kendon Riddick
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:49:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Cearain Would you care to bet that in the next eve report Dramiels are not the best sellers for frigates?
You're an idiot.
I often appear that way to morons.
I take it you think people will buy more dramiels than any other frigate.
You're an idiot.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:57:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Walker Bulldog
Originally by: Gorefacer
It costs a lot
80-90m is "a lot of money" these days? LOL. It's not even the most expensive frigate out there, Daredevil costs 100m+.
In any case, Dramiel will get hit with the nerf stick eventually. Anything that becomes too popular does - ask all the nano pilots, and all the falcon pilots, etc, etc.
Yes that was my point. That the "it costs a lot" (among others) is a terrible argument for why a ship is balanced or not regardless of whether it actually is.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
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Cearain
Caldari ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:59:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Kendon Rid****
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Cearain Would you care to bet that in the next eve report Dramiels are not the best sellers for frigates?
You're an idiot.
I often appear that way to morons.
...
You're an idiot.
See!
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