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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:08:00 -
[151] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:I just had an idea...
Currently (or well, before the fix) the average prices were defined by a rolling average across all transactions of the whole cluster.
How about we give transactions a different weight, depending on, for example: - The less a single individual player has traded an item within the last day, the higher a transaction containing this item is weight or: - The more individual players have been involved in trade at the system/station of the transaction within the last hour/day, the higher its weight
I discourage setting it based on current trade hubs / main regions, as that would interfere with the player-driven aspect of the forming of these hubs and the market in general. On the other hand, dynamically defining it on amount of items traded or isk exchanged would make it highly manipulable by few with huge capital.
-> Hence above idea. There may be many goons (or members of any given large block), but not enough to outtrade us "pubbies" without creating an actual and valid market.
Aryth, corestwo or someone else with deeper insight.. am I making sense?^^
The main flaw that I see with this idea is that it would be difficult to set the number of individual trades or players involved in such a way as to prevent price games, but not exclude items that are genuinely traded, but in low volumes, such as many officer items. Set that threshold low enough and, as Aryth said, you just get around it with multiple alts. Sure they wouldn't have standings and such to minimize fees, but if you're looking at a method of making trillions of isk, do you care?
I'll also note that as the price estimate is intended to serve as an estimate of market price, excluding hubs and main regions is a poor idea no matter how it's implemented, because those hubs and main regions are the largest markets. . |
Lindsey Ocelot
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:12:00 -
[152] - Quote
So people can openly exploit, then two weeks later report and all is well? |
Sega Phoenix
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.06.28 19:12:00 -
[153] - Quote
First my government does something I do not agree with, then CCP roflstomps the sandbox in the interest of "fairnesss". I'm having a bad day =( |
0oO0oOoOo0o
Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.06.28 19:13:00 -
[154] - Quote
You are too soft, I'd ban 'em all ! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:16:00 -
[155] - Quote
Sega Phoenix wrote:First my government does something I do not agree with, then CCP roflstomps the sandbox in the interest of "fairnesss". I'm having a bad day =(
We just lost 5T of profits. Our day is pretty damn bad. |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.06.28 19:16:00 -
[156] - Quote
i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... |
Alain Kinsella
120
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Posted - 2012.06.28 19:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this.
You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class.
I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Lindsey Ocelot
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:18:00 -
[158] - Quote
......oops |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:19:00 -
[159] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
One step further, actually. The basket would not merely average items, but cut off obvious outliers (such as a 1% implant spiking to 68.7 million in value). It wouldn't work for everything, obviously - minerals are too varied in price to apply it uniformly, for example, but then again minerals are too large a market to feasibly game the price on anyway - but it would probably do a good job of mitigating attempted manipulations in items that are actual targets for this sort of thing. . |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:20:00 -
[160] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit.
It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed. |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:23:00 -
[161] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme. You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit. It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed.
And 4.5x is the worst case, which is "Can buy the seed item from the LP store and also have high warzone control." It rapidly becomes untenable if the items aren't in the LP store, or if your faction of choice has a lower tier. . |
Sephira Galamore
Nemesis Holdings Corp Luna Sanguinem
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:31:00 -
[162] - Quote
Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. Hmm... should this group average be used for the est. value of each element of this group (a) or as a means to normalize the indivual averages (b)?
I assume (b), because, in case of (a), there are many groups e.g. Sleeper salvage that have huge differences within the group.
But with (b) how will you account for market shifts due to expansions etc? Parts of a group could suddenly become more valuable, not for market manipulation but for naturally increased need.
Is there a (c) that I missed?
//Edit: oh, you got into details later, let me read that up. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:33:00 -
[163] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Aryth wrote:Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme. You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit. It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed. And 4.5x is the worst case, which is "Can buy the seed item from the LP store and also have high warzone control." The required disparity between estimated price and price at which you can buy or build the item becomes much larger if you can't double it over by buying it and blowing it up again, or if they don't have a high tier of warzone control, or both.
If CCP pays careful attention to keeping LP store items, very cost controlled, this very quickly isn't doable anymore. There is a reason we picked LP store items do manip. They made this the lowest multiplier. You are already having to sink ******** amounts of ISK/Captail into this, even what we did was on a scale never seen before in EVE. For any manip period I believe.
As the others have pointed out in jabber (we talked about this a while ago) Anything from a BPO/BPC should be calculated by taking input costs at perfect research. Still across classes. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. Hmm... should this group average be used for the est. value of each element of this group (a) or as a means to normalize the indivual averages (b)? I assume (b), because, in case of (a), there are many groups e.g. Sleeper salvage that have huge differences within the group. But with (b) how will you account for market shifts due to expansions etc? Parts of a group could suddenly become more valuable, not for market manipulation but for naturally increased need. Is there a (c) that I missed? //Edit: oh, you got into details later, let me read that up.
Certain disparities within a group are a given, yes, but to some degree they are corrected for by the /10000 modifier in the formula. And, beyond that, the price disparity required when you can't buy an LP store item and blow it up again is large (I'll decline to say how large) even at tier 4, and increases by a factor of 4 each tier the faction loses.
Also as aryth noted, anything player produced can just calculate its price based on input cost. . |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:41:00 -
[165] - Quote
From my perspective as a player this was in no way an exploit. The system seems to have worked exactly as it was designed to work, it just contained a loophole big enough to drive 5 trillion through.
Given that the FW design is too fragile to allow for the staggering amount of LP it generated I would consider the removal of LP from the relevant accounts to be a fair solution after the loophole was closed.
But exploit? Nah.
I'm actually kind of curious why this has been something CCP Sreegs have dealt with. I would have thought this was a game design issue from start to finish. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
254
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:49:00 -
[166] - Quote
Dalilus wrote:i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... Nothing in EVE is free.
We pay for our expansions in installments, whether they are monthly or one of the other payment frequencies chosen.
Furthermore, some of CCP's customers provide free stress / load, design and functionality testing via the Mass testing sessions and feedback periods on Sisi. That is an enormous cost savings to CCP and could also be looked at yet another way in which CCP's clients pay into their services and enable these "free" expansions.
TBH, EVE is a fairly expensive MMO, so don't kid yourself about all of the stuff that CCP is just throwing away for "free." 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Abulurd Boniface
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:50:00 -
[167] - Quote
The graph does not show the value of the Y-axis, which makes it as useful as the given word of the CEO of Landsbanki.
I still tip my hat at the ingenuity of the people who found this particular caper. Deep respect to you.
I feel that the player should not be the one making the distinction between what is functionality and what is an exploit. Basically they used designer-produced content to their best advantage. They -only- used the interface as it was presented to everyone else in the game. Everybody who did their homework could have done the same thing. For me that means they are walking on the extreme razor's edge of the point where they start doing illegal stuff. But they're not quite there yet.
On the other hand, I can understand CCP's point of view, because this puppy was drawing blood, to the point of breaking the game. From the perspective of good stewardship of the environment, they just can't let that slide by.
I'm very happy that it all ended in amiable fashion, with the reset, so that the parties can take a bow, congratulate one party on their superb mastery of the environment, while the other is absolutely doing the right thing in taking the lesson in stride.
And because we are all adults here, we get to appreciate what a grandiose place this is and enjoy each other's company even more.
It is a privilege to share this experience with you fine people. |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:56:00 -
[168] - Quote
This is very funny to hear how CCP handled this. CCP admits that it was an exploit but the justice handed out is a joke. If this was 5 people from a corporation other than the Goons, they would have had a ban handed out. I guess having that many subscriptions can bend the mighty CCP.
Giving the one goon who snitched (after being part of the 2 week exploit) an award - while that is one giant cherry on top of the sundae that has been thrown in CCP's face.
CCP doing stuff like this shows they have not changed much. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:00:00 -
[169] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:From my perspective as a player this was in no way an exploit. The system seems to have worked exactly as it was designed to work, it just contained a loophole big enough to drive 5 trillion through.
Given that the FW design is too fragile to allow for the staggering amount of LP it generated I would consider the removal of LP from the relevant accounts to be a fair solution after the loophole was closed.
But exploit? Nah.
I'm actually kind of curious why this has been something CCP Sreegs have dealt with. I would have thought this was a game design issue from start to finish.
Presumably because he knows how to follow the ISK. That is what he does to catch RMT. He probably also wanted to cavity search us too. You don't pop up on a forum and shout 5T without bending over for a good probing. |
Abulurd Boniface
Shadow State SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:03:00 -
[170] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Dalilus wrote:i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this...... Nothing in EVE is free. We pay for our expansions in installments, whether they are monthly or one of the other payment frequencies chosen. Furthermore, some of CCP's customers opt to provide stress / load, design and functionality testing services via the Mass testing sessions and feedback periods on Sisi. That is an enormous cost savings to CCP and could also be looked at yet another way in which CCP's clients pay into their services and enable these "free" expansions. TBH, EVE is a fairly expensive MMO, so don't kid yourself about all of the stuff that CCP is just throwing away for "free."
I suspect someone is suffering from an ailment at the extreme end of the digestive tract here.
EVE is extremely affordable. The environment you get is a piece of engineering that boggles the mind and that is at the bleeding edge of technology. -And- you get to do crazy stuff like this which, when it is not deemed an exploit, a position that I can support in this case, stands if it doesn't break the ephemeral balance between 'sure, we'll accept this' and 'sorry guys, we can't let you do that.'
If the 5 guys who did this tried that in any other MMOG, their account would have been permabanned without any ifs, buts or maybes. CCP has acknowledged the genius of finding this weakness and provided a measured response. This is elite leadership. Show me any other place where it would have been handled like that.
We get to play in a superb environment, we are spoiled rotten by continuous, detailed and measured communication from the designers and the tapestry of third-party applications built and maintained by players is a refined quilt of beauty and enthusiasm.
It kills me to see people whining incessantly over the pittance they are charged for the privilege of joining this magnificent universe, when they know full well that you can't even get a decent buzz at the bar going for that price on a single evening. |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:03:00 -
[171] - Quote
Abulurd Boniface wrote:The graph does not show the value of the Y-axis, which makes it as useful as the given word of the CEO of Landsbanki.
I still tip my hat at the ingenuity of the people who found this particular caper. Deep respect to you.
I feel that the player should not be the one making the distinction between what is functionality and what is an exploit. Basically they used designer-produced content to their best advantage. They -only- used the interface as it was presented to everyone else in the game. Everybody who did their homework could have done the same thing. For me that means they are walking on the extreme razor's edge of the point where they start doing illegal stuff. But they're not quite there yet.
On the other hand, I can understand CCP's point of view, because this puppy was drawing blood, to the point of breaking the game. From the perspective of good stewardship of the environment, they just can't let that slide by.
I'm very happy that it all ended in amiable fashion, with the reset, so that the parties can take a bow, congratulate one party on their superb mastery of the environment, while the other is absolutely doing the right thing in taking the lesson in stride.
And because we are all adults here, we get to appreciate what a grandiose place this is and enjoy each other's company even more.
It is a privilege to share this experience with you fine people.
This is for the most part how I see it too.
CCP decided that this one was so close to the line, it was the line. At the line you don't get banned, or punished, you get made whole, but you get chest bumped back.
Over the line you get insta banned. So in effect they are saying, the line is right about here. It's a grey area, I obviously don't agree the line is right here, but it's their game. I will just keep helping to shape the limits of it. |
Kern Hotha
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:05:00 -
[172] - Quote
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Middle age is when your broad mind and narrow waist begin to change places. -E. Joseph Cossman |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:08:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
Huh. Sounds like PvE. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:13:00 -
[174] - Quote
Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item.
I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter. |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[175] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item. I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter.
Well rat yourself out and get an award |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[176] - Quote
Quote: I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)
Ban all PvE'ers. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[177] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Mechaet wrote:Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item. I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter. Well rat yourself out and get an award Fantastic idea. Heading over to the site now. |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:21:00 -
[178] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.
Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated. It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics. I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though.
This sounds really interesting. Implemented or not, I hope that you publish your fix.
And I think limiting the profit to the market manip is the best CCP can hope for with Forex. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1921
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:24:00 -
[179] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes
Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
834
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:28:00 -
[180] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:This is very funny to hear how CCP handled this. CCP admits that it was an exploit but the justice handed out is a joke. If this was 5 people from a corporation other than the Goons, they would have had a ban handed out. I guess having that many subscriptions can bend the mighty CCP.
Giving the one goon who snitched (after being part of the 2 week exploit) an award - while that is one giant cherry on top of the sundae that has been thrown in CCP's face.
CCP doing stuff like this shows they have not changed much.
The time and resources spent to roll-back these 5 players is absurd - these are 5 really important players to CCP. I'm glad you aren't in charge of anything. Nothing is ever black and white. A good leader understands the difference between someone being deliberately malicious (pro RMTers, game hackers, account thieves, etc...) and someone being creative and indirectly malicious with more or less benign intent, and that these actions and motivators carry with them a kaleidoscope of possible appropriate punitive actions. This game is supposed to be "fun" and with that a certain degree of levity and forgiveness serves the mighty overlords at CCP well. If you just dish out harsh black and white "justice" and bring the hammer down every time, your people not only won't work well for you, but will actively sabotage you. This apply to any business or war. There's a time for executions and a time for 24 hours in a detox cell, is what I'm trying to say.
That said, I still say the way CCP handled the guys who blew up the Cockroach and looted an Enigma was bunk. If I looted a unique ship like that and CCP took it away I'd cry like a 5yo girl who got man-punched in the face.
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