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Troubadour
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.18 20:31:00 -
[61]
call da ambalamps.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.18 22:26:00 -
[62]
Why nerf it? For the cost of a single dramiel you can buy 4 interceptors. If they have at least half-decent pilots they can catch the dramiel.
If you lose a dramiel - a single FRIGATE you lose as much as when you'd lose a battleship... Oh wait... You can't insure it for 80m like a battleship! One dramiel down - 80m in your back. Does that really sound overpowered? Especially that if it gets caught by any interceptor (one mistake while flying really), or if it just flies straight - a battleship takes it down with one shot of its guns.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.02.18 22:46:00 -
[63]
Game balance over price does not work and never has.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.18 22:49:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Game balance over price does not work and never has.
nicely proven by the number of titans in game atm. ("there will never be more than 3-4 titans")
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.02.18 23:34:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Troubadour call da ambalamps.
:siren:
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Atreus Tac
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.19 01:37:00 -
[66]
Quote: 1) Its much faster and more agile with a better lock speed.
The daredevil is fast enough to catch most inties, lock speed often doesn't mean much in dog fights as they are both quite fast. However the daredevil does about 400dps at good close range which destroys any inty and dram.
Quote: 2) It can make short work of all their inty's for one and has double to triple the EHP of your typical ceptor.
I said a decent gang, if you are stupid enough to die in an inty to a dram while in a gang then you would also die to a ranis aswell.
Quote: 4) Point is you can get it to 5km/s with 150-200+dps, 6.5k EHP and an insane lock speed. Also it gets tracking + falloff bonuses making it great for short range and long range. IE, its too good in too many categories.
This comes down to the fact that it costs more than any t2 frigs by a long way. If it didnt do 5k/ms then you would get a ranis. If it didn't do 150-200dps you would get a sader. If it didn't have the EHP you wouldn't fly it as it would be to fragile in dog fights.
If you change any of the stats then it would become virtually useless.
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Slimy Worm
Vivicide Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:46:00 -
[67]
Dramiels are expensive. They're supposed to have the DPS of an assault ship and the speed of an inty.
The main problem is that other pirate frigs suck compared to it. The Daredevil is okay but is close enough to an Enyo offensively that there's almost no point in flying one. The Cruor is almost useless since frigates are too small to be neut platforms. I can't even name the Sansha one; it's mostly a vanity ship. (I don't know enough about the Gurista one to comment but I haven't seen a single person fly it since Dominion)
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.19 07:46:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Atreus Tac If you change any of the stats then it would become virtually useless.
This. There is currently one good frig in the game. Incidentally frigates must be ******ed fast to be considered good, since your paper tank means you need to run away a lot. I don't even fly interceptors because they're so dumb slow now it's no use...
Also I don't get what all the fuss is about, it's just a faster, more ehp, more dps taranis. And it also costs 4 times what taranis costs and isn't cap stable. I really don't see the problem and I don't even fly them.
I'd welcome the OP to come and kill me with his overpowered dramiel any time though. You see, I haven't caught any yet, they all seem to warp off when I try to catch them. Just like uh... any other small ship I've ever seen.
So, why aren't you whining about how rifters (3+km/s, do almost 200dps, all at the cost of a staggering 1mil) get away because you can't lock them fast enough? I think those are much bigger a problem, since nearly anyone can fly them.
Before that though, I suggest we nerf capitals. Capitals are totally overpowered, they can jump without gates (i can't catch them), they have huge tank (i can't kill them solo in my interceptor), they have drones (they can kill my interceptor), they have smartbombs (nerf smartbombs too), they have neuts (nerf neuts too). I think capitals shouldn't be able to kill my interceptor, even though they cost 200+mil after insurance. In fact I think everyone should be given a Velator. And nothing else. Remove everything from market. That way we can have an even playing field. ---
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Zedic
Amarr Universalis Imperium
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:18:00 -
[69]
I... I think I want to have nut's babies...
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:22:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
So, why aren't you whining about how rifters (3+km/s, do almost 200dps, all at the cost of a staggering 1mil) get away because you can't lock them fast enough? I think those are much bigger a problem, since nearly anyone can fly them.
Maybe because rifters cant do 200 dps, have 6.5k EHP, go 5.5kms, have dualprop (i.e. the gtfo button), all at the same time?
Its pretty funny actually, the rifter is so cheap and powerful, in fact one of the mainstay frigates in the game, still dramiels seem to be more popular looking at eve-kill.
More popular than taranises as well which are so cheap, more popular than stilettos (one of the best tackle interceptors)...
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:22:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Atreus Tac This comes down to the fact that it costs more than any t2 frigs by a long way. If it didnt do 5k/ms then you would get a ranis. If it didn't do 150-200dps you would get a sader. If it didn't have the EHP you wouldn't fly it as it would be to fragile in dog fights.
If you change any of the stats then it would become virtually useless.
So we can drop the scan resolution down to normal frigate levels, and remove either the falloff or the tracking bonus (to make it either a close-range ship or a falloff kiter, and not "I am awesome at everything")?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.19 08:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Atreus Tac
This comes down to the fact that it costs more than any t2 frigs by a long way. If it didnt do 5k/ms then you would get a ranis. If it didn't do 150-200dps you would get a sader. If it didn't have the EHP you wouldn't fly it as it would be to fragile in dog fights.
If you change any of the stats then it would become virtually useless.
Binary fallacy. "If you chance any stat by even the smallest amount, it will change from its current powerful state to a useless state". This is obviously nonsense.
Cut the drone bay and cut the 100% damage bonus to a 5%/level one. You can have super speed or good DPS, not both.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.19 13:06:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Atreus Tac
This comes down to the fact that it costs more than any t2 frigs by a long way. If it didnt do 5k/ms then you would get a ranis. If it didn't do 150-200dps you would get a sader. If it didn't have the EHP you wouldn't fly it as it would be to fragile in dog fights.
If you change any of the stats then it would become virtually useless.
Binary fallacy. "If you chance any stat by even the smallest amount, it will change from its current powerful state to a useless state". This is obviously nonsense.
Pretty sure his point is, CCP is dumb and when nerfing something it'll get nerfed into oblivion.
Also, if you think the ship is so much awesome, why not fly it yourself? It takes a week to train for it. Then you might have a better perspective on it.
I for one have never flown a dramiel, yet i know it's a horrible ship, just like any other ship that can't deliver damage from outside large neut range. Maybe when frigs can do 300 dps from 30km they will be worth flying.
Also, running away gives absolutely no tactical advantage. Sure you keep your ship, but the other guy keeps his ground and knows all you can do is run off if you get shot at. I'd much rather go a bit slower and actually do some damage/have ehp. Think zealot/vagabond.
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
So, why aren't you whining about how rifters (3+km/s, do almost 200dps, all at the cost of a staggering 1mil) get away because you can't lock them fast enough? I think those are much bigger a problem, since nearly anyone can fly them.
Maybe because rifters cant do 200 dps, have 6.5k EHP, go 5.5kms, have dualprop (i.e. the gtfo button), all at the same time?
Well but, they have all that, the numbers are just a bit lower. Dramiel is a complete copy of the rifter, except all numbers are doubled, and the hull costs 1000 times more. Sure we can nerf it cause people think it's fun to fly and eve shouldn't be fun. But what's next then? Taranis? Vagabond? Cynabal? Rifter? I dunno about ranises but vagabonds are fun to fly, as are rifters. They share the exact same properties as a dramiel. Good slot layout, fast, decent dps, decent ehp.
Also in the last month I've jumped into at least 20 gatecamps while roaming 0.0 in my vagabond. Never once have I been caught, just by burning to the gate and jumping back out. Surely this means gates and vagabonds need to be nerfed because dumb 50 man blob couldn't stop my vagabond from burining 13km and using a gate?
Also to the OP, please by all means train for dramiel, and then come kill me over and over seeing how it's so overpowered. You see,
Also, eve-kill says drakes and hurricanes are BY FAR the most popular ships in the game. Surely this means they must get nerfed too? And yet, the only good thing about a drake is it's tank, and hurricane is just a ****ty version of tempest.
P.S. People are always going to be flying ships that are fun to fly. Something that slowboats at 100m/s and shoots lazors/missiles/whatever at targets 9000km away isn't fun for some people. Don't try to take their fun away just because you don't agree with them. ***gots.
Also comments about eve being a sandbox game etc etc. (if it's sandbox why doesn't my nano tempest/nano drake work anymore?) ---
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Atreus Tac
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.19 13:39:00 -
[74]
Hey guys on a totally different note I think we should nerf the ishtar.
Lets be honest, its faster, got better scan res, better DPS, better ehp, better cap regen and better slot layout than a vexor. Really is there any point of using a vexor. Just because it cost more and need a bit more skills shouldn't mean that it is better. Okay that was kind of lame.
but anyway my point still stands
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Mrdr
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Posted - 2010.02.20 02:44:00 -
[75]
Well after reading most of the replies to this topic and having complained about nurfs myself and been accused of stupidity and ignorance I tend to agree that it should not be nurfed at all along with other things I'm sure are just as controversial. The fun of any game like this is discovering your own tactics for success and suffering the agony of defeat. If you got owned I feel for ya but I admire the people who are succesful and feel no need for this conversation at all save to smack poeple who would rather nurf something rather than developing tactics to counter it. (No offense intended to those offering a truly crittical opinion) I'm gonna go buy one and kill something.
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Zhang Shicheng
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Posted - 2010.02.20 09:51:00 -
[76]
People who go around crying nerf suffer from small d*ck complex. Just relax... use the counters, they're all there. Nit picking just points at your pecker.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.20 11:08:00 -
[77]
I think it's the GTFO'ability that people seem to have a problem with, not so much its DPS (which isn't stellar) or cost - which should never be the singular balancing criteria (look at Titans).
Cookie-cutter dual prop Dram does over 1km/sec whilst scrammed and webbed before overload, so figure it will do 1.2km/sec+ overloaded, more with Snakes. All this means that when the s**t hits the fan unless you're in a trap set specifically to deal with you in a Dramiel you just burn away at 1km/sec+ and a few seconds later you're out of scram range and warping away.
People will counter-whine saying "if you chase them off you've won", but that's a load of crap really. Chasing someone off doesn't deprive them of anything except your kill. When the options are either you losing your ship or chasing the other guy off - how exactly have you "won" that encounter?
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Taja Calaren
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Posted - 2010.02.20 11:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Durzel ... or cost - which should never be the singular balancing criteria (look at Titans).
The Titan comparison is just silly. For a ship that can be onehitted by most BS if it gets unlucky cost is very well an important balancing criteria. Also having more Dramiels in your alliance won't make it more powerful... go attack an Cap/BS fleet with your pretty Dramiels and look what happens.
The cost is an very important balancing criteria vor smaller ships... wich is one of the problems of AF, wich can do little more than t1 frigs (and some things they can do even worse) but a loss will cost you like 30 times as much.
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Ione Skye
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:08:00 -
[79]
The op is on the right track. These threads always tend to get trolled by the bandwagon, who is abusing the unbalanced ship. LOL @ PL nano***s!
I know, PL do so much better in understanding ship stats. If you show same dedication to facts for your alliance tournament stat like you do in this thread, you would never survive the first round.
The first thing, which shows everything is wrong with Dramiels, is the simple fact, everybody is flying it. I have already encountered fleets with only Cynabals and dramiels. The result reminded me indeed in the nano-century.
OK, you say it is easy to kill these. Let's talk about, how to do it. Somebody said abaddon. Dramiels can fly with high transversal under the lasers of an abaddon, if they are enough ships to tank him, the abaddon is ****ed. Not everybody can fly an abaddon.
CCP nerfed nano-ships, because nobody could hit them with turrets and drones.
Drones: The warriors, the fastest drones in game, hit any ship, if it is not a inti with overheat or snakes. Warriors became a good weapon against small and fast ships. A dramiel can outrun warriors pretty easy.
Webs: Even if you webify a Dramiel, they are often still way too fast.
Scram: if it is a dual prop Dramiel, he most likely is with his AB faster than you with your MWD, if you are a big ship. If you are in a small ship, you most likely do not survive beeing in close range with it. You can try to scram and web and hope you can keep him in scram+web range long enough. But against good pilots, it is often only wishful thinking to get them in scram/web range in that ship.
Turrets: Lasers are Uber since the recent boosts. Other turrets suck more. WIth that extra speed it is very easy for Dramiel to get under your guns. Missiles: I do not fly missile boats. Any thoughts?
Frigate 1v1: Recently, that was before the Dramiel/faction ship boost, I thought, which ships could be still in some way uber. Lasers are. Sabres are for interdictors. Ranis or crusader for the interceptor class. A dramiel kills these intis in close range.
So a dramiel:
- is the fastest ship in game - has extremely fast lock time - can tank quite good, good slot layout - has fire power of 4 small turrets + 2 drones
I expect it to be nerfed, too.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:18:00 -
[80]
Ione ... just wondering ... you were flying a dramiel ever? you had been fighting one ever? just wondering because of the 2 drones.:)
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Nephilius
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:30:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Mire Stoude
Originally by: Amneamnius be patient. it takes at least 1000 gallons of carebear tears for ccp to use the nerfbat...
Because, as we all know, the only people who wish to discuss game balance issues are carebears. Right?
Also, to address the OP: We don't need 'more nano nerf' because of issues (actual or perceived) with one ship.
Pretty much, but I digress. Some people have no real understanding of niches or specializations when it comes to certain things. They don't understand that which is different and therefore they need it clubbed with a nerfhammer until it is the same as every other ship of its size class. After all...PVP is hard!
Can we just leave stuff alone? Please? Adapt and overcome, there has to be a way.
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Ione Skye
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:34:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Ione Skye on 20/02/2010 16:35:24
Originally by: darius mclever Ione ... just wondering ... you were flying a dramiel ever? you had been fighting one ever? just wondering because of the 2 drones.:)
3 drones. I was on the side to try to catch them and it sucked. Most of the time dramiel pilots do not have the drones out anyways, because they would lose them. I mean, there can be funny moments, if it has no MSE and a SB drops a bomb on it or amarr laser ship+no transversal = insta*pop*, but these moments are rare. I flew it on test server, not on tranquility in pvp, yet. I do not know all about it. That is true.
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2010.02.23 17:06:00 -
[83]
Actually not the Dramiel itself is too fast. Frigates in general are too slow compared to other classes.
With a lol EHP frigates depends 100% on speed. They also lack DPS, sensor strength, sometimes agility and slots in general.
The point why CCP is ignoring such issues...there is no or almost no lobby for frigate size vessels.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.23 19:03:00 -
[84]
Lets nerf all ships to do a max of 600 m/s. Oh, then we have to nerf missiles again because they will do too much damage to a slower ship. Guns too since they will have a better advantage at tracking a slower ship. Then we'd need to nerf webbers because they make a ship go much too slow. Oh then we'd have to nerf... WHEN DOES IT ****ING END?
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moranno
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Posted - 2010.02.28 20:54:00 -
[85]
Nerf,nerf,nerf! Falcon is the IWin, lets nerf ECM! Nano is the IWin, lets nerf it! Torps are too good, lets nerf em! Nos is too overpowerd, lets nerf it! Nerf everything that is good in this game to make it even for everyone. Well, guess what, life is not even, humans are not born equals. Wake up, snap out of it.U got a problem? Live with it! Plz, plz,plz CCP!! DONT NERF THE DRAMIEL! Is just 1 bloody ship!
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Sunset Rogue
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Posted - 2010.03.01 03:14:00 -
[86]
Originally by: moranno Nerf,nerf,nerf! Falcon is the IWin, lets nerf ECM! Nano is the IWin, lets nerf it! Torps are too good, lets nerf em! Nos is too overpowerd, lets nerf it! Nerf everything that is good in this game to make it even for everyone. Well, guess what, life is not even, humans are not born equals. Wake up, snap out of it.U got a problem? Live with it! Plz, plz,plz CCP!! DONT NERF THE DRAMIEL! Is just 1 bloody ship!
Did you just imply that prenerf nos was acceptable. I think it is safe to ignore everything you post from now on.
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2010.03.01 04:13:00 -
[87]
Dramiel's worst nightmare?
a Curse with a point and a bay of warrior IIs.
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2010.03.01 05:26:00 -
[88]
Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale
That's what no one gets about nanos. The only way they were well and truly good was to invest alot of money in them. People where just too stupid and herdlike to figure this out.
Being expensive doesn't make the ship 'Balanced' such theory only means that the rich have access to these ships and further widens the gaps between newer characters and old filthy rich characters.
After all, if price is no concern. Why not pick up an overpowered ship?
Factor out price and all you get is a ship that is simply overpowered.
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Ketusan
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Posted - 2010.03.01 06:41:00 -
[89]
So, let me get this straight... you need to use a t2 HAC or a T3 ship to counter a Dramiel?
Right, totally not overpowered.
Originally by: Red zeon you can counter the dramiel todya i was in 00 solo scrammed a deimos, but hes hammerheads hurted way too much (scram and orbit at 5km with mwd)
and ittle later i scrammed a tengu in a haven, hes missiles didnt hurt at all, but when he changed to preision em missiles, dam they hurted, (got med shield extender on it) both in mwd and doin 800m/s withouy mwd,
tho the drones could have been able to fit artys and long orbit at nice speeds and popped em one by one. and the tengu, if youd fit ab you could maybe tank that, prolly noy tho, was about 20% shield per volley when i was doin 800m/s
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Ketusan
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Posted - 2010.03.01 07:03:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Ketusan on 01/03/2010 07:03:30 double post
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