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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.02.27 18:39:00 -
[1]
I would like to draw people's attention to the latest CSM minutes, and in particular to this proposal:
Quote: Moving datacore production to nullsec was identified as a possible means to give players incentives to operate there.
What I think might happen if this were done:- Massive speculation and initial price spikes, especially for Mechanical Engineering cores
- Datacore prices increase by a factor of 3-10 in the long term due to reduced supply stemming from the vastly increased risks of collecting them (rolling bubble camps outside the homes of decent agents, for example, or hours looking for exploration sites that drop them)
- T2 module prices increase significantly (build costs are tiny, almost negligible, compared to invention costs for most of them)
- T2 ship prices increase by a smaller margin, as invention costs are less significant for them
- People start to avoid using T2 by default, boosting meta 3-4 item prices (and making invention more expensive - vicious cycle?)
- Decryptors become viable for more invention jobs due to increased savings from using them -> some of the cheaper decryptors might rise in price.
- Along with the other farmers, Matalino finally despairs (if he hasn't already).
- Increased startup costs put more people off from doing invention, especially those who can't calculate their costs or who would normally farm their own cores- T2 margins increase slightly due to reduced competition
This is fairly optimistic - I have no idea how long it would take to deplete existing stocks of datacores / RP. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Mashie Saldana
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.27 19:36:00 -
[2]
Or it could simply mean that datacores will be available in 0.0 as well.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.02.27 19:45:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 27/02/2010 19:45:52 Sounds good.
Hi sec should be miserable for 2+ year old characters, and should be a training ground for the new players. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.02.27 19:47:00 -
[4]
Some T2 BPO holder camping a high sec gate in 0.0 just vid.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.02.27 20:08:00 -
[5]
I don't understand. Datacores are farmed via agents correct? Does this mean the agents would be moved to NPC 0.0?
That would be interesting. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife Discord.
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Posted - 2010.02.27 20:28:00 -
[6]
The system would have to be rebuilt from the ground up; merely moving the agents to 0.0 space would result in a massive price spike for datacores and thus by extension for t2 stuff (which would benefit me personally but not so much the game as a whole).
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.27 20:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mahke The system would have to be rebuilt from the ground up; merely moving the agents to 0.0 space would result in a massive price spike for datacores and thus by extension for t2 stuff (which would benefit me personally but not so much the game as a whole).
Look at T3. You have to scan to find a WH, go there and scan for sites. Run those sites, hope you don't get scanned down and ganked while doing it. Cross your fingers you find the items you are looking for. Then make it back out of there before the WH collapses.
While moving R&D agents to 0.0 means that datacores will only be collected right before and after DT in a covops or BR. Not really a lot of risk even from camps.
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Drexciyian
The Water Margin Tech
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Posted - 2010.02.27 22:08:00 -
[8]
Nice boost to t2 bpo owners
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.27 22:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Mahke The system would have to be rebuilt from the ground up; merely moving the agents to 0.0 space would result in a massive price spike for datacores and thus by extension for t2 stuff (which would benefit me personally but not so much the game as a whole).
Look at T3. You have to scan to find a WH, go there and scan for sites. Run those sites, hope you don't get scanned down and ganked while doing it. Cross your fingers you find the items you are looking for. Then make it back out of there before the WH collapses.
While moving R&D agents to 0.0 means that datacores will only be collected right before and after DT in a covops or BR. Not really a lot of risk even from camps.
Really?
Let's see a bit of aftereffect of this "bright idea": - how many alts people want to manage in 0.0? Especially carebears opting for a easy to maintain alt? cut production by 50%
- standing: how much people can use level 4 agents in 0.0? Ok, cut datacore production by another 50% or so (to 25%)
- skills: how many 0.0 characters with the right standing want to train a science skill to 5 and research project management to at least 4? drop production by another 50% (so we are at 12.5%)
- how much production lost to gatecamp? let's be generous, only 10% (so we are down to 11.5%)
- ever tried moving a few datacore with a cov ops? Cargo space is a bit small.
- you have half an idea about how much datacores inventors use? I can easily consume 200 of them in a day without even trying hard.
That mean that I need 12 R&D characters with level 5 skill in science, level 4 in research project management and 5 good quality level 4 agents to feed me enough datacores to run my inventions.
I thing that datacore prices would return to the old "first day of invention" levels very fast (3+ millions each one).
So what would we have? a single "wonderful" cluster of R&D agents in a single station in 0.0 to form a "nice" agent hub like those almost no one use in low sec? So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source?
Or a R&D agent in each station and our heroic R&D alt jumping around in 0.0 to harvest them from five different agents, possibly of multiple factions?
As usual for this CSM they seem to lack any capability to think about the immediate gain for the play stile they like and a total lack of foresight about the consequences of the proposed changes.
Unless the goal isn't that of simply making the T2 BPO they own more valuable.
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.02.27 22:36:00 -
[10]
it really, really depends on the implementation. Just moving the research agents to npc 0.0 would be utterly lazy on CCP's part and wouldn't really entice people to 0.0, just require them to occasionally pick up their datacores via carrier. _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.02.27 22:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Unless the goal isn't that of simply making the T2 BPO they own more valuable.
Most likely scenario. T2 BPO's break this game.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.27 23:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Venkul Mul - how many alts people want to manage in 0.0? Especially carebears opting for a easy to maintain alt? cut production by 50%
True
Quote: - standing: how much people can use level 4 agents in 0.0? Ok, cut datacore production by another 50% or so (to 25%)
If they only moved R&D agents you can still run missions in highsec for the standings just like you have to do now anyway.
Quote: - skills: how many 0.0 characters with the right standing want to train a science skill to 5 and research project management to at least 4? drop production by another 50% (so we are at 12.5%)
How many people have done just that then unsubbed their account for a year. Resubbed, collected cores, profit, unsub for another year?
Quote: - how much production lost to gatecamp? let's be generous, only 10% (so we are down to 11.5%)
I'd rather fly through 0.0 than lowsec any day. Right now I have 2 agents that are 15+ jumps through high sec or 6 through 0.0 to get from one to the other. In all my trips through the 0.0 systems I have always been the only person in local. Of course with everyone knowing that agents are there, that would change of course, but then again, I'm sure some 0.0 alliances would be happy to transport them to highsec, for a fee of course.
Quote: - ever tried moving a few datacore with a cov ops? Cargo space is a bit small.
Very small, but it's the price you pay for instawarping cloaked.
Quote: - you have half an idea about how much datacores inventors use? I can easily consume 200 of them in a day without even trying hard.
I can use 1000 a day easy. I have 9 characters doing invention/production.
Quote: So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source?
Which is why it will never happen.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2010.02.27 23:29:00 -
[13]
Could be a new POS Lab/Caldari Outpost mechanic introduced that produces datacores, conduct 24 hours of research in Science X produce 1 datacore of type X. Another option would be to actually increase the rate of return on said research. Right now most agents produce roughly 1/day. Increasing the rate at which a POS Lab/Caldari Outpost produces them would help to soften the blow.
Another option is a tie into Tyrannis where worlds with a particular upgrade produce datacores.
Just ideas.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.02.27 23:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Breaker77
Quote: So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source?
Which is why it will never happen.
I know a few dysprosium moons who might have a few words to say about that, if only they could speak. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Lord Zarcam
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.02.28 03:19:00 -
[15]
This is just another attempt by a few hard-core PVP'ers to force people to 0.0 so they can have more easy targets. They just don't get it that some people do not want to PvP.
Here's a idea for them to chew on, make high-sec smaller and force all PVP'ers to low/null sec. Oh wait, they would not have any easy kills then. Oh my, lets not let that happen!
In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream! |
Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.02.28 03:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Drexciyian Nice boost to t2 bpo owners
Basically. Looking at price markup even on crap faction gear from null sec to jita....either the alliances in control will have their way with pricing. Or the independents in null sec or those who run the blockade as it where will not be charging discount prices on these things (they might even charge more lol, since not blue to anyone out there...added danger pay). T2 owner will gladly raise his price more to be close to equal with what inventors are paying for invention for datacores coming from a region in a war.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.28 04:21:00 -
[17]
can't really say anything without more details.
would this be at a pos, a planet (yay trannys!), outpost, npc station, or exploration?
it could work
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.28 08:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Venkul Mul - how many alts people want to manage in 0.0? Especially carebears opting for a easy to maintain alt? cut production by 50%
True
Quote: - standing: how much people can use level 4 agents in 0.0? Ok, cut datacore production by another 50% or so (to 25%)
If they only moved R&D agents you can still run missions in highsec for the standings just like you have to do now anyway.
So CCP should implement NPC stations in 0.0 for the R&D corporations? We are speaking of something like 12 corporations with several station each. I doubt NPC 0.0 and its denizens could accept the sudden apparition of 100-300 NPC stations without problems.
If they appear in player owned stations (maybe with a industry upgrade) they become a static income option controlled by the station owners.
Originally by: Breaker77
Quote: - skills: how many 0.0 characters with the right standing want to train a science skill to 5 and research project management to at least 4? drop production by another 50% (so we are at 12.5%)
How many people have done just that then unsubbed their account for a year. Resubbed, collected cores, profit, unsub for another year?
Quote: - how much production lost to gatecamp? let's be generous, only 10% (so we are down to 11.5%)
I'd rather fly through 0.0 than lowsec any day. Right now I have 2 agents that are 15+ jumps through high sec or 6 through 0.0 to get from one to the other. In all my trips through the 0.0 systems I have always been the only person in local. Of course with everyone knowing that agents are there, that would change of course, but then again, I'm sure some 0.0 alliances would be happy to transport them to highsec, for a fee of course.
Quote: - ever tried moving a few datacore with a cov ops? Cargo space is a bit small.
Very small, but it's the price you pay for instawarping cloaked.
Quote: - you have half an idea about how much datacores inventors use? I can easily consume 200 of them in a day without even trying hard.
I can use 1000 a day easy. I have 9 characters doing invention/production.
Seeing how I can use 200 with one character doing invention work, your number don't impress me. Make it 2k and we are even.
Originally by: Breaker77
Quote: So that we would have a nice big alliance camping it to death saying "all mine" and a huge blob trying to push them away from the new big passive income source?
Which is why it will never happen.
Probable.
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clixoras
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Posted - 2010.02.28 10:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate it really, really depends on the implementation. Just moving the research agents to npc 0.0 would be utterly lazy on CCP's part and wouldn't really entice people to 0.0, just require them to occasionally pick up their datacores via carrier.
Aside from the fact that industry characters are not really likely to fly a carrier, i dont think it's particularly smart to fly a carrier solo in 0.0.
As i see it, it's another desperate attempt to get people into 0.0. In the end (or very soon) it will monopolized by the major alliances who get bigger and bigger. So it will be counterproductive as it reduces the chance for smaller alliances to survive and thus reducing the incentive to go to nullsec in the first place.
Also, you have to travel more as agents will likely be scattered which makes it a PITA. And B.T.W. what is so wrong with the general idea of large manufacturing operations in hi-sec? I thought another goal was to increase player interaction. It will only make the big alliances more autistic as they already are.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.02.28 11:43:00 -
[20]
There are no level 5 R&D agents yet. Introducing a set of them in 0.0 NPC stations under the same system as the currently existing level 1-4 R&D agents would encourage some people to move over to using them in order to get a greater RP yield. If the existing agents remain unchanged then this will result in a boost in datacore production and a reduction (however small) in datacore price.
Some of these people will behave like idiots and fall before the guns of PvPers. Some will be smart and harvest these datacores without loss. Those that only cash in their datacores infrequently will stand to benefit the most and risk the least in moving to them.
So if they implemented it that way it's a nerf to datacore return from hi-sec (which is probably a good thing) a buff to datacore return from riskier locations (which is probably a good thing) and a buff to passing trade for pirates and other PvPers (which is probably a good thing). The extent of the nerf/buff depends too much on the specific numbers to predict.
I would probably support this change. Particularly if they put more high quality level 1-4 R&D agents in low-sec too.
I like datacores providing a passive income, I like the idea of there being a greater variety of risk/return scenarios for people to choose between when setting up datacore harvesting. While I support the idea of having lots of defuse income sources all over eve that are more difficult to camp or farm in order to encourage and support certain playstyles and prevent other playstyles from dominating, I also support the idea of having lots of point income sources all over eve that can be camped and farmed in order to encourage and support those playstyles too. A lot of corps and a lot of enjoyable PvP situations have formed around these point sources in the past, it's part of the idea of being able to seize and own a part of space and gain the benefits from it. The key thing is getting the right balance in these things and not allowing any one source of income to dominate.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.02.28 11:52:00 -
[21]
I've never harvested datacores so forgive me if I'm missing something here but ...
Datacore harvesting provides an almost completely passive income, right? All you have to do is collect them once in a while (potentially once in a very long while by the sounds of it). The aim of moving datacore production to 0.0 would be to get more people living in 0.0. But there is no need for people to live permanently anywhere near their passive income sources. The result will be to add a small number of people to 0.0 for a fractionally small amount of time. This change might make a few people travel into 0.0 and transit through it who might otherwise not have done so, but I can't see how it would actually increase the population of people living there (the stated aim of the change). Am I missing something here?
Also, anyone have any idea of how many CSM members are T2 BPO owners and, thus, not suitable to make disinterested decisions on this matter?
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Skarii TuThess
Lansez Innovations
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Posted - 2010.02.28 11:58:00 -
[22]
Moving agents to npc 0.0 wouldn't solve the issue of making moving to 0.0 more of an incentive - the npc 0.0 regions have always been reasonably well populated and lots of corps base themselves around high level npc 0.0 agents.
I agree with the idea of making living in deep 0.0 more self sustainable, without the need to keep jumping back to empire regularly. Therefore the addition of things like POS fuel and datacores to 0.0 should happen, although with many things the devil is in the detail. You should need a reasonable industry backbone at least, possible upgrades etc. The changes to 0.0 to allow smaller alliances a chance to get out there have been good, but the lack of infrastructure makes it impossible for them to live in deep 0.0.
However the idea of "moving" (as ooposed to adding) datacores to nullsec I think is extremely dangerous for the economy of the game.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.02.28 12:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: RAW23 Datacore harvesting provides an almost completely passive income, right? All you have to do is collect them once in a while (potentially once in a very long while by the sounds of it).
Spot on.
The emphasis being on collecting them and shipping them to market. One could, of course, simply farm the datacores with an alt who lives in the agent's station and sell the datacores on the market there, leaving the risk of carriage to someone else.
[Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES] |
clixoras
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Posted - 2010.02.28 12:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
So if they implemented it that way it's a nerf to datacore return from hi-sec (which is probably a good thing) a buff to datacore return from riskier locations (which is probably a good thing) and a buff to passing trade for pirates and other PvPers (which is probably a good thing). The extent of the nerf/buff depends too much on the specific numbers to predict.
I would probably support this change. Particularly if they put more high quality level 1-4 R&D agents in low-sec too.
If we're talking about ADDING L5 agents in 0.0, i would also be a supporter of that. First of all, the dedicated industry/invention types do get choices (risk vs reward) which in general i'm always a supporter of. The OP was clearly stating that this is about NERFING hi-sec harvesting and replacing it with 0.0 agents.
The change will be larger than 'just adding a few r&d agents' though. Players need to reach required corp standings, so they need to add other types of agents as well then. Or are we going to see 0.0 carebears in empire :)
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.28 12:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Or it could simply mean that datacores will be available in 0.0 as well.
I think would be a better approach than moving them. Perhaps lvl 5 R&D agents should be found in nulsec so the incentive is an increased reward, rather than the appearance of nerfing datacore production. Perhaps make T3 datacores available in nulsec.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.02.28 12:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bad Bobby Those that only cash in their datacores infrequently will stand to benefit the most and risk the least in moving to them.
Originally by: RAW23 But there is no need for people to live permanently anywhere near their passive income sources.
Exactly. This is why I said that it would only introduce a little more passing trade to PvPers. It won't increase population.
However, if they also made the R&D missions that double your daily datacore yield better then that could encourage people to be more active with their R&D agents which would in turn help the population in areas near them.
Originally by: Mara Rinn The emphasis being on collecting them and shipping them to market. One could, of course, simply farm the datacores with an alt who lives in the agent's station and sell the datacores on the market there, leaving the risk of carriage to someone else.
More trade activity in those areas isn't a bad thing either.
Originally by: Skarii TuThess the npc 0.0 regions have always been reasonably well populated
Increasing that population a little more wouldn't hurt. The same goes for low-sec.
Giving the pirate factions R&D agents in their stations would be a nice touch. Seeding more stations in NPC 0.0 and low-sec with more high quality or high level R&D agents would be nice. I wouldn't want to see non-NPC 0.0 stuffed full of NPC stations. CCP can rebalance the drop rate of datacores in plexes to encourage more plexing for them too.
Combining that with better R&D missions would be a good step in the right direction.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.02.28 12:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Skarii TuThess I agree with the idea of making living in deep 0.0 more self sustainable
That I don't agree with. Forcing interaction with hi-sec encourages trade, travel and combat.
The addition of jump bridges and jump freighters has had a very negative impact on the amount of gate-to-gate haulage that occurs in low-sec and 0.0 which is a bad thing for piracy and for supply inderdiction in warfare. The addition of huge anchorable structures that have to be imported from hi-sec in the recent sov changes has been a good thing. The mass limits on wormholes and the incentive to run POSes inside them have also been good in this area. I would like to see more of that rather than less. Making people haul hi-sec sourced materials for POS fueling is a good thing, in my opinion, and I do a fair amount of POS maintainance in inhospitable places so I understand what I'm talking about. Giving people more reasons to haul in normal haulers or freighters and encouraging people not to just hug POSes, stations and jump bridges with them is all good.
Buffs to piracy are something I always welcome. More hauler, orca and feighter kills are ideal sources of income to the "pure" pirate that wishes to fund their lifestyle with booty. Give me enough profitable targets in low-sec, 0.0 and wormhole space and I'd sell off the last few parts of my industrial empire and complete the shift to full time piracy. It's got a lot better with recent expansions, just a little bit more buff and we'll be in to the next golden age of eve piracy.
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.02.28 14:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Or it could simply mean that datacores will be available in 0.0 as well.
Datacores are already available in 0.0 thru exploration. What CCP possibly mean would be pumping up the drop amounts dropping in exploration or adding extra source of datacores on top of exploration (for example planetary interaction).
Afterall they have not stated that they will remove passive datacore generation thru R&D agents. So what would happen would be price crash of datacores or in other words lower invention costs for getting the prints. A indirect T2 BPO nerf. Would be harder to run 'free' accounts also by getting 15 R&D agents on account and buying GTC's with isk from datacore selling (like I do with some of my accounts).
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Fulbert
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.28 15:16:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Fulbert on 28/02/2010 15:19:02 Any 10milSP+ character is able to avoid 0.0 gatecamps with a T3 cruiser fitted with interdiction nullifier & covert reconfig. More than 250 datacores in one trip - that's months of datacore farming, even with 2 or 3 agents. Gatecamps aren't a problem.
IMHO, boosting 0.0 income won't bring more individuals. People go to nullsec when their corp get an access to it : NRDS, standing agreement, or sov. Highsec NPC corp players won't go in nullsec space, cause the whole risk versus reward stuff is broken. -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist |
Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.02.28 15:55:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Carniflex on 28/02/2010 15:55:15
Originally by: Fulbert Edited by: Fulbert on 28/02/2010 15:19:02 Any 10milSP+ character is able to avoid 0.0 gatecamps with a T3 cruiser fitted with interdiction nullifier & covert reconfig. More than 250 datacores in one trip - that's months of datacore farming, even with 2 or 3 agents. Gatecamps aren't a problem.
IMHO, boosting 0.0 income won't bring more individuals. People go to nullsec when their corp get an access to it : NRDS, standing agreement, or sov. Highsec NPC corp players won't go in nullsec space, cause the whole risk versus reward stuff is broken.
If the cores would be produced in 0.0 stations (altho I personally do not believe CCP would go that route) the easiest way to 'cash in' would be the jump clones. Install one jump clone at each station you need to cash in and then clone jump over 5 days into each of them for 'cash in'. Don't need to travel thru 0.0 at all once you have made it to the station once. That tackiks is reasonable even currently for the hi sec agents. After that all you need is to collect all the cores with one character - carrier for example is pretty good for that. No need to go thru all those gates and stuff. And it's not like anyone is able to get you if you know what you are doing and don't use kickout stations or take unreasonable risks.
If you read the minutes mentioned above though there is other things proposed in my opinion that would have far wider effect in EVE and in null sec than ability to get few extra datacores. For example proposal that one should not be able to dock if warp scrambled or bringing back Titan's ability to DD in low sec (especially in combination with inability to dock if scrambled). Undocking JF's would become quite fast a rather risky gamble on the lines 'wonder if there is recon cloaked near by waiting to scramble me'. Nothing major ofc, as JF's would just start undocking 40 sec before DT or if there is no neutrals in local. Assuming the timer remains at 30 sec before you can redock or jump.
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Don Pellegrino
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.28 16:37:00 -
[31]
Why people keep saying that prices will go up is beyond me.
It will go up IF they don't increase the volume of datacores farmed per agent.
Of course there would be massive speculation at the beginning, but if they do their math right, they could avoid any significant price change by simply increasing volume to compensate for the lower number of people farming R&D agents.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.02.28 22:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Bad Bobby Give me enough profitable targets in low-sec, 0.0 and wormhole space and I'd sell off the last few parts of my industrial empire...
Once it becomes profitable beyond a certain point, you'll start to see a lot more competition. Your victims will then become more wary, and the status quo will resume. I doubt an equilibrium will ever be reached that will support a significant increase in the fraction of the eve population who live purely by piracy. In fact, we not so long ago had an alliance named after these principles. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.03.01 05:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino Why people keep saying that prices will go up is beyond me.
Lets look at ore...try finding a bp that has made the jump from ore 0.0 to jita and stayed same npc price. Lets look at actual fitments. most ore stuff is not even worth half its going rate (most some training to get tech 2 trained gets you the same thing at a fraction of the cost). Jumping from null sec to empire...adds to value.
Unless charitable cores sold will have a piece of the costs of moving it out of there. Cloaky, T3 with bubble nullifier, or jump capable ship... piece of those transport costs will make it to the cores. Bit of aggravation to dodge low sec pirates, null sec residents (worse if you don't live out there, most are not blue shoot so good as being red to them lol) just to get to the station. Then see them on the way out. Someone not charging for that aggravation...either an idiot or a really nice person lol.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.03.01 08:11:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino Why people keep saying that prices will go up is beyond me.
It will go up IF they don't increase the volume of datacores farmed per agent.
Of course there would be massive speculation at the beginning, but if they do their math right, they could avoid any significant price change by simply increasing volume to compensate for the lower number of people farming R&D agents.
but also how many people are risk adverse to the point they won't go out to 0.0 to even get the datacores? but hey that is also assuming they don't completely rework the system.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.01 08:46:00 -
[35]
Quote:
but also how many people are risk adverse to the point they won't go out to 0.0 to even get the datacores? but hey that is also assuming they don't completely rework the system.
The following will happen:
1) Phase 1, speculation, price spikes etc for some months. Not worth keeping a permanent record of it.
2) Phase 2, higher prices
3) Phase 3, the usual morons and lemmings (statistically relevant entities filling every possible spot in humanity, including games) will decide that it's cool for them risking a JF and paying for fuel for 1000 ISK per datacore surcharge over today's price. "I R smart, I do volume! I'll just have to do this for 15 years to adsorb the cost and I'll never get killed in the process, so it's good to go!"
4) Phase 4, empire dwellers will buy today's datacore for 501k instead of 500k and go on as usual.
It's almost like ORE BPOs. Or any of the billion things devalued like that since humanity begun infesting Earth. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.01 08:51:00 -
[36]
Assuming tentatively that the maximum rate of datacore production per character remained roughly the same, what makes you think that enough people would bother attempting the move to 0.0 to maintain current levels of suppply? --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.01 09:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Assuming tentatively that the maximum rate of datacore production per character remained roughly the same, what makes you think that enough people would bother attempting the move to 0.0 to maintain current levels of suppply?
Because if there's demand, there is supply. Someone will do that.
But then, since there's stupid as well, someone will do that for well below his own costs and risk too. It's really what happens already. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.03.01 14:49:00 -
[38]
this idea has been suggested but not accepted yet knowledge is power |
Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.01 16:59:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Grozen this idea has been suggested but not accepted yet
It has beed 'discussed' among other things in the last CSM summit. The one sentence about it is vague enough to understand it any way you like. Most of this thread is wishful thinking and speculation. For example the one sentence does not say that current R&D agents in empire would stop giving out datacores. Nor does it say if one would start getting datacores from some new source in 0.0 (as one can already get datacores from exploration in 0.0). It is entirely possible that CCP might pump up for example datacore drops in the exploration without doing anything else - as it is possible that they might do nothing. Or do any of the other mentioned ideas. Up to and including removing R&D agents from hi sec (altho I myself they would remove T2 BPO's or make it possible to 'grind' datacores before/instead of removing their R&D agents).
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:30:00 -
[40]
I don't think it'll work to be honest and I doubt CCP would do it..
What I can see them doing is adding "Sec Status" to RP calculations. So the lower the Sec status the higher the RP's daily. Something I thought it already did but maybe not.
T2 BPOs will become a lot more valuable. As the price as Datacores goes up, invention costs go up, but manufacturing costs remain the same. So here is what happens. T2 invention becomes expensive, this raises the price of T2 items. The higher priced T2 items means LOTS more profit for T2 BPO holders. Since T2 BPOs are valued at the rate of profit over 4 years or something, the BPOs will become VERY expensive.
The profit from a BPO will be horrendous!
The price of T2 equipment will become so great that Meta mods will become preferred, As T2 items over price themselves out of business, Invention starts to stop as T2 BPO holders start selling below Invention costs just to get sales.
Invention eventually stops, which raises the question... why did CCP move it out to 0.0 in the first place. This will late prompt a CSM meeting about moving Datacores back into High-sec.
It's a logical path, so I think the best they will do if they are considering it is literally, make 0.0 research agents research faster.
Amarr for Life |
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Cecilia Syal
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:34:00 -
[41]
would be interesting if you wanted to trade RP for datacore's you might need to go to a research hub in 0.0 with vouchers from agent. then there could be a trade in these items to those who want to take risk to redeem.
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John Blackthrone
Caldari Fnord Works
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Posted - 2010.03.01 17:52:00 -
[42]
Edited by: John Blackthrone on 01/03/2010 17:52:58 i think you interpret thsi completly wrong, there just will be some R&D agents in 0.0 too i think
or the empire R&D agents get nerfed a bit and the new 0.0 agents are much better (ore only bette 0.0 agents vs normal empire agents, so you would see a drop in price for t2 items)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.05 07:07:00 -
[43]
I think this clarification by the CSM will be handy:
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 02/03/2010 21:41:02
Originally by: Venkul Mul
[addesd as Sokratez didnt cite it] Gems like this one: "Moving datacore production to nullsec was identified as a possible means to give players incentives to operate there." show that you guys have no idea of the effects of a change like this would have on invention.
Tossing a suggestion like that in the middle of the meeting without any discussion in the Assembly hall, the market forum or the science and industry forum show a total disregard for the opinions of the players and a lack of comprehension of the probable consequences.
That was not ours, that was CCP's, and they had put quite a bit of thought in it.
And if you want more industrial reps on the CSM, run yourself and mobilise your peers?
So it is a CCP idea .
And I think we need to mobilize a bit as it will make invention mostly a toy for the 0.0 alliances.
Comments?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.05 07:59:00 -
[44]
Quote: Comments?
CCP suggests anti-carebear features for EvE?
They get my vote.
Game needs desperately for intense trading between the most distant regions so that delta in pricing arises and a thick economic flow returns.
The current status of "Jita uber alles" is unsustainable, the game seems to get 100+ new concurrent players in the system a year and it's unlikely they can scale up their architecture quick enough to forever sustain that.
Pure station trading needs a nerf, logistics should be a factor. Jump freigthers etc should not allow such easy bypassing of warzones and this is also supported by CCP making some sov modules take a full regular freigther.
To transform the infinite nap trains and bears-in space back into a PvP game. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.05 08:34:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote: Comments?
CCP suggests anti-carebear features for EvE?
They get my vote.
Game needs desperately for intense trading between the most distant regions so that delta in pricing arises and a thick economic flow returns.
The current status of "Jita uber alles" is unsustainable, the game seems to get 100+ new concurrent players in the system a year and it's unlikely they can scale up their architecture quick enough to forever sustain that.
Pure station trading needs a nerf, logistics should be a factor. Jump freigthers etc should not allow such easy bypassing of warzones and this is also supported by CCP making some sov modules take a full regular freigther.
To transform the infinite nap trains and bears-in space back into a PvP game.
Interesting vision, so you are convinced that giving a passive source income in 0.0 will increase fighting?
Care to explain why it should break the nap train?
All I see is that it will increase personal, tax free, income for 0.0 denizen and at the same time it will increase cost of T2 equipment.
You think that getting more isk on a personal level will increase PvP?
And it will increase fighting between alliances?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.05 12:46:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Interesting vision, so you are convinced that giving a passive source income in 0.0 will increase fighting?
Care to explain why it should break the nap train?
All I see is that it will increase personal, tax free, income for 0.0 denizen and at the same time it will increase cost of T2 equipment.
You think that getting more isk on a personal level will increase PvP?
And it will increase fighting between alliances?
It's not about giving passive income but it's one tiny bit in a greater plan I happen to support, to finally make 0.0 an home and not just some hard life outpost in the middle of nowhere.
I'll tell you why I have been in 0.0 for 3 times and left:
- there were an handful of systems worth living in. When I have been in IA space the closest place where to refit etc. was 7 jumps away. The closest ABC roids were 5 jumps away *and* an alliance mail stated that anyone blue (non blues should not even get there) found ratting or mining in those neg sec status system would be podded on sight. Of course no clone facility anywhere close.
- Therefore life was about terrible hi sec - alike roids, mediocre ratting and having a POS as only base, where you can't even repackage stuff and exchanging stuff with alts was a piece of sh!t.
- Most moons sucked hard nuts, dispros were obviously restricted to sov holders.
- There were no agents as well (much less R&D agents), only high DED stuff to do in 4-5 people, thus my alt's smallish corp had people doing nothing but wait for the others to log in and finally be able to do something together.
Needless to say, after 3-4 weeks people started jump cloning back in hi sec. 0.0 was not hard, just boring and empty. There was some PVP to do but it was mostly about yawning at an enemy POS while it slowly died with no defense.
This was but an average corp going in an average alliance in an average piece of 0.0, that is the target of CCP new Dominion efforts.
Second time, I was in NPC 0.0. Finally agents, a station. Even a clone station some 6 jumps away or so. It was much better, which is wrong, as the game should prize the effort at holding sov. Once again, no decent roids, no R&D, no trade hub (the station was permacamped of course), no decent moons. Mission systems required being in NAP with everyone otherwise it was a quick death.
Now, why would anyone choose to live there? Because you can do 10M per hour more than L4 hi sec missions with the most gruesome and boring grinding ever created?
Ok, PvPers can find opportunities (1 per hour?) but then it's not a place for a more general population to desire to live in, the CCP objective.
Third time it was with Dark Rising. 0.0 was much friendlier being the guys in charge, having 150+ pilots ready to evaporate anything on sight, having round the clock people online and so on. But what was that? One big and great corp out of many mediocre and small ones? 0.0 does not get more lively with 1 bright star every 1000 light years.
The prize to pay? Alliance ops scheduled at 2.30am, having to be active enough or be kicked (including periodic checks on everyone where you had to actually justify why you were supposed to deserve being there, i.e. with many kills and whatsnot). Compulsory teamspeak, IRC and whatever.
Again, an hard core approach that many cannot afford, and a MMO is about the many mediocres not just about the top 10 corps.
Gazelles are needed to keep the lions alive.
By bringing decent roids in 0.0, some more PvE opportunities, R&D, making more moons viable etc. etc. is a starting point in a plan that should finally make 0.0 take off. People will finally stop feeling that continuous impulse at jump cloning back to empire. Once they get attached to their new home and get all what's needed (incl R&D), it becomes a new universe, not just a PvP appendix to leave ASAP to return to "real life" in hi sec.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.03.05 14:02:00 -
[47]
Ok, highsec, sometimes whormole carebaer on the board now.
I use 4 Lvl4 and one L3 R&D Agent for passive income (datacore farming) and this is the first time i heard that, and it nearly gave me a heart attack.
So CCP made me skilling for 3 to 4 months to be able to use this amount of agents, with all "science blah blah bla" at 5, made me grinding standing with different corps for further 2 months and than will move my agents to 0.0?
I tell you what i do. At least i wonŠt sell any more datacore now, waiting for MASSIVE PROFIT. When it happens i encounter one of those thousand emo-rage threads, created by carebaers like me, whishing CCP hell on earth.
Start skilling for this useless T3 Protus (wtf is Protus)with interwhatever nullwhatever to get my datacores collected from 0.0. And after i lost it first time (soon(tm)) with a full load of datacores (it wont happen when going TO the cores), i emo-rage quit, whishing CCP hell on earth.
But of course i will tell you, in an emo-rage thread on forums.
Thanks for reading.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.03.05 14:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote: Comments?
CCP suggests anti-carebear features for EvE?
They get my vote.
Game needs desperately for intense trading between the most distant regions so that delta in pricing arises and a thick economic flow returns.
The current status of "Jita uber alles" is unsustainable, the game seems to get 100+ new concurrent players in the system a year and it's unlikely they can scale up their architecture quick enough to forever sustain that.
Pure station trading needs a nerf, logistics should be a factor. Jump freigthers etc should not allow such easy bypassing of warzones and this is also supported by CCP making some sov modules take a full regular freigther.
To transform the infinite nap trains and bears-in space back into a PvP game.
Interesting vision, so you are convinced that giving a passive source income in 0.0 will increase fighting?
Care to explain why it should break the nap train?
All I see is that it will increase personal, tax free, income for 0.0 denizen and at the same time it will increase cost of T2 equipment.
You think that getting more isk on a personal level will increase PvP?
And it will increase fighting between alliances?
If it's passive like the current system, then it will only cause a minor increase on occasional traffic through various 0.0/low-sec areas. This is positive, but so minor as to be of little importance.
If RP yields are significantly higher due to lower sec and the nature of, and rewards provided by, the R&D missions are overhauled then you could see increased activity in these areas. More reasons for more people to be missioning, hauling, trading and generally active in a wider variety of 0.0/low-sec locations is all good.
Originally by: Bad Bobby Forcing interaction with hi-sec encourages trade, travel and combat.
...
Giving people more reasons to haul in normal haulers or freighters and encouraging people not to just hug POSes, stations and jump bridges with them is all good.
It's all good for combat, piracy, supply interdiction and other things beside.
While I don't see it ending NAP trains and I don't see it increasing fighting between alliances if it is a resource available in a variety of alternative locations, there is potential for racial/region preferences for certain datacores to give certain areas of 0.0 some degree of dominance in the provision of each datacore field so as to give another thing that is worth fighting for influence over. If it's something that everyone can harvest effectively, from the indivdual to the small corp to the large powerblocks then it gives another thing that everyone can go to 0.0 for.
If CCP keeps it as effortless and basic as the current system, then it will have less of an impact. I'd keep the core the same as the current passive system but increase the sec status factor, increase the RP multiplier on R&D missions (maybe varying with mission type, level and location) along with an overhaul in the missions themselves.
Also an increase in the value of T2 modules is probably a good thing. At the moment T2 fitting is standard, there was once a time when it was a little bit special. At the moment T1 is for noobs and named is for ****fits and tight fitting situations, there was a time when it was a more viable choice for economy reasons. There was also a time when the loot dropped from a T2 fit PvP kill was valuable enough to provide a good reward for PvP, now it's only mass killings and faction kills that give that effect. I think having a decent gap between T1, named, T2, faction, T3, deadspace and officer prices is a good thing. In T1/named/T2 I wouldn't want those prices to be prohibitive, but I'd like them to be a factor that deserves more consideration than in the current situation. 10k-50k T1, 100k-500k named, 700k-1000k T2 is too narrow in my opinion and a little boost to the spread here would be nice.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.03.05 14:32:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha ...the terrible history of VV going from one fail corp to another...
Seriously you have my sympathy for the history you have had.
While I've witnessed all the bad things that you describe here at various points, I've seen a lot more of how good life can be in low-sec, NPC 0.0 and SOV 0.0. This goes nowhere to disproving your points though, I know full well that it comes down to the type of corp and the type of pilots you fly with. I just believe that the current situation for the majority is a little less bleak than your description suggests.
I fully agree that we need the weak for the middling to feed upon and we need a mix of everything for the strong to feed upon. Making it so that it requires a little less ability to make an enjoyable life out of 0.0 would be a positive, but I wouldn't want to see it dumbed down so that the more advanced get less enjoyment or benefit from it. I also think that we need to balance retaining the "hardy pioneer" lifestyle in 0.0 as well as the "established and confortable 0.0 citizen" lifestyle, don't just dispatch all the pioneers to WH space as there should never be just one place for a certain playing style to be explored.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.05 15:23:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Seriously you have my sympathy for the history you have had.
While I've witnessed all the bad things that you describe here at various points, I've seen a lot more of how good life can be in low-sec, NPC 0.0 and SOV 0.0.
I did not tell a 3 part story for the sake of listing bad things, expecially since there's no bad thing if it yields knowledge you can treasure on.
Mine is but a symbol of what an average "one in a million" player can experience. Yes it can be bleak (I'd call it "boring" or "not really rewarding") and it's not because I had an expecially bad luck.
Quite the opposite, it's you who are the exception. In fact, you'll notice how about 70% (CBA to check the QEN right now, I am at work) of the player base are well entrenched in hi sec or "returned to" high sec exactly because they also did not find 0.0 that fun, comfortable or just a place to call it home.
In the end I ended in DR and it was the good corp (even with their requirements, they were needed to do the impressive progress from 5 players in hi sec to IT workhorse in a year). But many don't have your or my luck and are stuck with some boring "wannabe" 0.0 small corp. I dare say there are actually more "pets" population than real sov holders and they shared the same destiny of being sent to the backwater, worse systems. This is something the new sov mechanics should improve somewhat.
About your hardship reflections: I have nothing against hardship, but not as an end in itself. Those who could not access the true neg sec systems were basically getting the hardship without the benefits, and this is detrimental to have them remain there. Imho hardship should come off the competition at wanting to stay there, not at having it hard because the place sucks nuts and is boring and empty. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.05 18:43:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Stuff
Strangely (as I mostly disagree with you ) I agree on all the line. Very similar to my 0.0 experience.
I am not against adding R&D agents (and even mission agents, possibly with better missions) to Sov and NPC 0.0.
My problem is with the word moving as i read it as "removing them from high sec and low sec and placing them in 0.0" coupled with the lack of interest for industrial stuff from this CSM delegates, lack of interest that grant that CCP will not hear different suggestions from them.
If CCP mean to add them to 0.0 (adding even level 5 agents there) without removing them from empire, no problem at all, if they want to add a new mechanism to produce datacores on the planets surface, even better, simply "moving" them will make T2 again the realm of the privileged few.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.03.05 20:29:00 -
[52]
The problem is moving R&D agents to 0.0 will not really increase the "entertainment". You can run one mission a day, which gives you double points, that's not exactly riveting amount of fun. Most of them are also about "buy this from the market" which will probably be something not available out in 0.0.
Planetary interaction will add more enjoyment for board 0.0 players then R&D agents. I can also predict the best stations to own a "Bar" in will be 0.0 stations when walking in stations becomes active. When I think back to my 0.0 times (3 times as well) either we're on a OP in which we camp a gate or a station while the capital fleet hammer away on a POS. The rest of the time we sat around on Vent talking trash or went on 50 jump hunting parties. Not being on an op but needing to be out in alliance space will mean walking in stations will become one of the biggest past-times of alliance grunts. Gambling real ISK, accessing the black market and other things will make them more attractive.
I don't think moving agents out to 0.0 is any type of solution at all. What needs to happen is literally a massive decrease in the amount of ISK high-sec can generate and a massive increase in 0.0 space. However it can't be direct increases like Ratting or mission running, a single person doing the same activity in 0.0 shouldn't earn a massive amount more if ISK then someone in high-sec. It's what you do because of something that should get you more in 0.0 then high-sec.
Imagine if NPC commodities stopped "buying" in high-sec and only NPC's purchased in low and high-sec. It makes sense, the lower the security the more difficult it is to travel the higher they pay for items. In high-sec there is full security so NPCs can travel without issue so why are they buying Commodities. 0.0 NPC station need things like beef and spice wine and stuff, so they should pay a fortune for it.
Give people a big golden carrot for something they obtain in high-sec but need to go to low-sec or 0.0 in order to get the carrot is a way to make people more 0.0 traveled. Simply denying them something in high-sec will NOT force them to move. It'll just annoy them.
In a thread (I think it was a recent dev blog) I read someones comment "So this is something for everyone, not just an upgrade for 5% of your customer paying base..." This is a true carebear line of thought... "CCP are rewarding 5% of their income by giving them the biggest opportunities to make the most ISK while 95% of their customers are held up in high-sec fighting over pennies, it's not fair, I like to whine about it!!..."
Everyone knows the best way to get people to do things is to make it seem like it was their idea in the first place. Taking something away from people then telling them it's out there go get it, is NOT the way to get people out of high-sec.
Amarr for Life |
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