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Max Godsnottlingson
Amarr Fate Corporation
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Posted - 2010.03.04 12:09:00 -
[31]
While I generally disagree with the OP's original idea. I must say, one of the most intense times for me was during the Great Delve war.
I had just jumped through a gate while flying a Proph with a cloak fitted, and discovered a 'camp' the bad way. I knew I would never be able to warp out in time, so I went to full speed, then hit the cloaking device, instantly a number of foe started moving in my direction, including a pair of Domis, that appeared to be chain repping or something or other together. They actually came within 3.5k of me.
For 20 minutes I was sweating like a pig, it was wonderful, some of the most exciting game play I've had in Eve, all it needed was the 'pinging to really set the atmosphere. (But then again, I am also a big fan of the Silent Hunter Sub sim games too)
It did lead me to think that there may be a place for a 'SONAR' type mod in the game (and yes, it must absolutely have the mandatory pinging)
If you really wanted to expand the idea, the SONAR mod won't uncloak a close by ship, but tell you if you are within 2.5 to (say) 10k of a cloaked object, the higher the skill level, the further out you can 'see'
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.03.04 12:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: darius mclever
you have neutrals/reds in local and keep mining.... yes you are smart.
Are you being sarcastic?
So he should dock up whenever a red or neut cloaker sits in system AFK...
Did you intentionally contradict yourself, or was it just sort of spur of the moment?
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:22:00 -
[33]
I support any kind of limiter to the cloak, i do believe that something needs to be done to the AFK cloak pilots, they are a I Win to anything. You can train for cloaking in a month or two and shut down a system by being afk, if something was done to either allow someone who is sitting in one place for an hour or so to be found, or their cloak disengages after an hour of no activity, i say that would be good enough.
the active players will have a countdown showing in the cloak and they will know to warp someplace and then back to their location resetting the timer, while the AFK cloaked pilot can be found and killed after 1 hour.
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Xonus Calimar
Terra Incognita Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sig Sour From what I understand, once you hit the cloak button, there are NO coordinates sent from the server to any client. If there were, people could mod their client to see you. So doing this wont work, nor will any type of finding cloakies.
I think this needs to be quoted for emphasis. (I'm almost sure this is how it works.) If there is some magical way to have this kind of idea implemented without messing up the condition mentioned in the above quote, fine. However, good luck with that... ______________________________
Originally by: CCP Shadow Your image has emerged from its chrysalis, reborn in its new link form.
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Asheru
Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:46:00 -
[35]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru Edited by: Asheru on 04/03/2010 08:57:09 It will force cloakers to become blinkers?
Sort of like, what? Forcing me to press the scan button every 2 seconds because a cloaker went to sleep in my mining system?
My proposed change would be completely fair to all parties involved.
you have neutrals/reds in local and keep mining.... yes you are smart.
This is exactly my argument - I don't mine with hostiles in the system. Even when I know they're afk-cloaked and probably not at their keyboard. My hulk is just too expensive and too vulnerable. But they can sit in the system cloaked, completely invulnerable, while they go to school/work or sleep.
Which leads back to my original argument: Why should they be able to lock down an entire mining system while they aren't even playing the game?
Having to press the cloak button once every 5-10 minutes is not game-breaking. It's not even a mechanic change, really. It won't turn cloakers into "blinkers". Scouting won't be a nightmare. Cloaking will be unchanged.
Please tell me, how is this not fair to cloakers? Provide reasons.
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Mike C
Caldari Ipuvaepe Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:59:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Mike C on 04/03/2010 18:59:20
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru Edited by: Asheru on 04/03/2010 08:57:09 It will force cloakers to become blinkers?
Sort of like, what? Forcing me to press the scan button every 2 seconds because a cloaker went to sleep in my mining system?
My proposed change would be completely fair to all parties involved.
you have neutrals/reds in local and keep mining.... yes you are smart.
This is exactly my argument - I don't mine with hostiles in the system. Even when I know they're afk-cloaked and probably not at their keyboard. My hulk is just too expensive and too vulnerable. But they can sit in the system cloaked, completely invulnerable, while they go to school/work or sleep.
Which leads back to my original argument: Why should they be able to lock down an entire mining system while they aren't even playing the game?
Having to press the cloak button once every 5-10 minutes is not game-breaking. It's not even a mechanic change, really. It won't turn cloakers into "blinkers". Scouting won't be a nightmare. Cloaking will be unchanged.
Please tell me, how is this not fair to cloakers? Provide reasons.
OP is ******ed. He is not locking down system, you are afraid to go out. Your point (lack thereof) is moot.
retarted > ******ed
↑↑ bar is just /quote ↑↑ [03:17:29] Trade Skills > Jesus believes in god [03:17:38] Mike C > believed* [03:17:48] Trade Skills > touche |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru Edited by: Asheru on 04/03/2010 08:57:09 It will force cloakers to become blinkers?
Sort of like, what? Forcing me to press the scan button every 2 seconds because a cloaker went to sleep in my mining system?
My proposed change would be completely fair to all parties involved.
you have neutrals/reds in local and keep mining.... yes you are smart.
This is exactly my argument - I don't mine with hostiles in the system. Even when I know they're afk-cloaked and probably not at their keyboard. My hulk is just too expensive and too vulnerable. But they can sit in the system cloaked, completely invulnerable, while they go to school/work or sleep.
Which leads back to my original argument: Why should they be able to lock down an entire mining system while they aren't even playing the game?
Having to press the cloak button once every 5-10 minutes is not game-breaking. It's not even a mechanic change, really. It won't turn cloakers into "blinkers". Scouting won't be a nightmare. Cloaking will be unchanged.
Please tell me, how is this not fair to cloakers? Provide reasons.
because your pressing a button every 5minutes fscks every other valid game play involving cloaks?
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Asheru
Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: darius mclever
because your pressing a button every 5minutes fscks every other valid game play involving cloaks?
how so?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
because your pressing a button every 5minutes fscks every other valid game play involving cloaks?
how so?
carebear much?
you bring your stealthbomber in position. suddenly the X minute timer (the amount doesnt really matter) of some of your pilots runs out and he gets decloaked. and all your preparation gets voided.
same for recon pilots sneaking towards their target cloaked.
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
because your pressing a button every 5minutes fscks every other valid game play involving cloaks?
how so?
carebear much?
you bring your stealthbomber in position. suddenly the X minute timer (the amount doesnt really matter) of some of your pilots runs out and he gets decloaked. and all your preparation gets voided.
same for recon pilots sneaking towards their target cloaked.
this is why the timer should be 1 hour, you can bookmark the location and then warp back to your bookmark, and not kill your surprise attack for stealth and recons, however it would hurt other ships like bombers but they are not meant to be used like recons and stealth's they are meant to surprise and then run not sneak upon your enemy.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.04 20:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Michael McNeil this is why the timer should be 1 hour, you can bookmark the location and then warp back to your bookmark, and not kill your surprise attack for stealth and recons, however it would hurt other ships like bombers but they are not meant to be used like recons and stealth's they are meant to surprise and then run not sneak upon your enemy.
the length of the timer does not matter. really. murphy says it will run out right at the wrong moment. be it 1h 2h or 20s. right at the wrong time.
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Asheru
Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.04 20:28:00 -
[42]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
because your pressing a button every 5minutes fscks every other valid game play involving cloaks?
how so?
carebear much?
you bring your stealthbomber in position. suddenly the X minute timer (the amount doesnt really matter) of some of your pilots runs out and he gets decloaked. and all your preparation gets voided.
same for recon pilots sneaking towards their target cloaked.
There's no need for the ad hominem, this isn't the CAOD. Let's have a discussion without calling each other names. It makes your argument appear unsound.
Here's a scenario of equal unfairness: XxstealthguyxX warps to 50km on your ice belt after DT and cloaks. He then goes to school for 6 hours. I log on a few hours later and see him in local and assume he is an afk-cloaker (they pretty much all are, at this point). While he's in the system, I won't mine POS fuel. Here is my main gripe: he isn't even playing the game, and he still has a direct effect on my gameplay. If he catches me in that ice belt, I'm dead meat. Even pre-aligned, it takes me at least 15 seconds to get that badboy into warp. If he's in a bomber, I'm dead before I get there. If he's in a cloaked HAC, he can just bump me out long before I enter warp.
A cloaker can effectively lock down the industrial operations of an entire system without even sitting at his keyboard. This is the mechanic I believe needs a change. Not cloaking itself. You should be forced to at least be playing the game if you want to maintain a presence in it.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.04 20:32:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Asheru Here's a scenario of equal unfairness: XxstealthguyxX warps to 50km on your ice belt after DT and cloaks. He then goes to school for 6 hours. I log on a few hours later and see him in local and assume he is an afk-cloaker (they pretty much all are, at this point). While he's in the system, I won't mine POS fuel. Here is my main gripe: he isn't even playing the game, and he still has a direct effect on my gameplay. If he catches me in that ice belt, I'm dead meat. Even pre-aligned, it takes me at least 15 seconds to get that badboy into warp. If he's in a bomber, I'm dead before I get there. If he's in a cloaked HAC, he can just bump me out long before I enter warp.
A cloaker can effectively lock down the industrial operations of an entire system without even sitting at his keyboard. This is the mechanic I believe needs a change. Not cloaking itself. You should be forced to at least be playing the game if you want to maintain a presence in it.
yes. but your timer idea would ruin all valid uses cloaking.
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:08:00 -
[44]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru Here's a scenario of equal unfairness: XxstealthguyxX warps to 50km on your ice belt after DT and cloaks. He then goes to school for 6 hours. I log on a few hours later and see him in local and assume he is an afk-cloaker (they pretty much all are, at this point). While he's in the system, I won't mine POS fuel. Here is my main gripe: he isn't even playing the game, and he still has a direct effect on my gameplay. If he catches me in that ice belt, I'm dead meat. Even pre-aligned, it takes me at least 15 seconds to get that badboy into warp. If he's in a bomber, I'm dead before I get there. If he's in a cloaked HAC, he can just bump me out long before I enter warp.
A cloaker can effectively lock down the industrial operations of an entire system without even sitting at his keyboard. This is the mechanic I believe needs a change. Not cloaking itself. You should be forced to at least be playing the game if you want to maintain a presence in it.
Only if you want a I win button for cloak, if you need more then an hour to get your ship into where you need it slow boating, then you are a failed cloak pilot and either need to learn to become better or you need to change how you play. I am not asking to increases, or decreases any stats other then the cloaks ability to remain active for more then an hour which is a lot longer any cloak pilot needs.
yes. but your timer idea would ruin all valid uses cloaking.
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Asheru
Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru Here's a scenario of equal unfairness: XxstealthguyxX warps to 50km on your ice belt after DT and cloaks. He then goes to school for 6 hours. I log on a few hours later and see him in local and assume he is an afk-cloaker (they pretty much all are, at this point). While he's in the system, I won't mine POS fuel. Here is my main gripe: he isn't even playing the game, and he still has a direct effect on my gameplay. If he catches me in that ice belt, I'm dead meat. Even pre-aligned, it takes me at least 15 seconds to get that badboy into warp. If he's in a bomber, I'm dead before I get there. If he's in a cloaked HAC, he can just bump me out long before I enter warp.
A cloaker can effectively lock down the industrial operations of an entire system without even sitting at his keyboard. This is the mechanic I believe needs a change. Not cloaking itself. You should be forced to at least be playing the game if you want to maintain a presence in it.
yes. but your timer idea would ruin all valid uses cloaking.
Here is another idea: Same thing as before, but when your cloak cycles off you have a 10 second window to re-cloak before you show up on anyone's overview.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Michael McNeil
Only if you want a I win button for cloak, if you need more then an hour to get your ship into where you need it slow boating, then you are a failed cloak pilot and either need to learn to become better or you need to change how you play. I am not asking to increases, or decreases any stats other then the cloaks ability to remain active for more then an hour which is a lot longer any cloak pilot needs.
ok so i float in wh space for a bit and watch the guy running that anomaly/site. right when he finished and starts looting my cloak drops due to the stupid timer and he can run before i even get a chance to tackle him. yes definitely a failure on my side. anything time based is just fail. so is fuel for cloak.
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru Here's a scenario of equal unfairness: XxstealthguyxX warps to 50km on your ice belt after DT and cloaks. He then goes to school for 6 hours. I log on a few hours later and see him in local and assume he is an afk-cloaker (they pretty much all are, at this point). While he's in the system, I won't mine POS fuel. Here is my main gripe: he isn't even playing the game, and he still has a direct effect on my gameplay. If he catches me in that ice belt, I'm dead meat. Even pre-aligned, it takes me at least 15 seconds to get that badboy into warp. If he's in a bomber, I'm dead before I get there. If he's in a cloaked HAC, he can just bump me out long before I enter warp.
A cloaker can effectively lock down the industrial operations of an entire system without even sitting at his keyboard. This is the mechanic I believe needs a change. Not cloaking itself. You should be forced to at least be playing the game if you want to maintain a presence in it.
i will agree with this, it makes the difference between the active cloak player and the inactive player, while not breaking the cloak. This forces the cloak player to watch his equipment, it adds depth to the area of cloaking, anyone who would try to ague that it puts the active cloak player at a disadvantage is just crying that they want a I win button. Good job putting the shoe on the other foot.
yes. but your timer idea would ruin all valid uses cloaking.
Here is another idea: Same thing as before, but when your cloak cycles off you have a 10 second window to re-cloak before you show up on anyone's overview.
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Mike C
Caldari Ipuvaepe Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: darius mclever
because your pressing a button every 5minutes fscks every other valid game play involving cloaks?
how so?
carebear much?
you bring your stealthbomber in position. suddenly the X minute timer (the amount doesnt really matter) of some of your pilots runs out and he gets decloaked. and all your preparation gets voided.
same for recon pilots sneaking towards their target cloaked.
There's no need for the ad hominem, this isn't the CAOD. Let's have a discussion without calling each other names. It makes your argument appear unsound.
Here's a scenario of equal unfairness: XxstealthguyxX warps to 50km on your ice belt after DT and cloaks. He then goes to school for 6 hours. I log on a few hours later and see him in local and assume he is an afk-cloaker (they pretty much all are, at this point). While he's in the system, I won't mine POS fuel. Here is my main gripe: he isn't even playing the game, and he still has a direct effect on my gameplay. If he catches me in that ice belt, I'm dead meat. Even pre-aligned, it takes me at least 15 seconds to get that badboy into warp. If he's in a bomber, I'm dead before I get there. If he's in a cloaked HAC, he can just bump me out long before I enter warp.
A cloaker can effectively lock down the industrial operations of an entire system without even sitting at his keyboard. This is the mechanic I believe needs a change. Not cloaking itself. You should be forced to at least be playing the game if you want to maintain a presence in it.
No, he isn't. You see him in local and decide that because you are afraid of ship loss, you don't undock. To be honest it is only unfair to him.
↑↑ bar is just /quote ↑↑ [03:17:29] Trade Skills > Jesus believes in god [03:17:38] Mike C > believed* [03:17:48] Trade Skills > touche |
Asheru
Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:54:00 -
[49]
Thanks for the personal attacks, it's almost starting to feel like the internet again. But I digress, I am not the object of this discussion. My idea is.
Quote: Every 15 minutes your cloak begins to cycle off and you have a 10 second window to re-cloak before you appear on overviews and become probe-able.
Try to tell me how this is not fair without breaking down your argument to insults.
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Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2010.03.04 22:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mike C No, he isn't. You see him in local and decide that because you are afraid of ship loss, you don't undock. To be honest it is only unfair to him.
if the cloaked pilot is active, then he is not going to be found with a timer on the cloak, more so if you have a 10 second window that you can reactivate the cloak before decloaking. What this does is helps eliminate the AFK players who shut down systems by being AFK but cloaked, once you have given a game mechanic to eliminate these unfair players. Those like myself will no longer be able to complain as the only cloaks not macro players left are actual players and they are legitimately cloaked and we are fair game in that case.
Does this bring some challenge to the cloaked pilot who runs more then one account? yes, as it should, you can not be in two places at once in reality, you simply cannot man two ships at once, so this adds realizim to the situation of people using multiple accounts now run the risk of forgetting about the timer like anyone else who is trying to do too many different things at once. "If you try and chance two rabbits you will lose them both."
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Mike C
Caldari Ipuvaepe Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.04 22:17:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Mike C on 04/03/2010 22:17:28 AFK cloaked pilots DO NOT shut down systems. They do not do anything at all. It is you who decides not to use a system. Here is something you can do:
A) Fit ECM to your hulk. BAM! B) Fit an ECM burst to your hulk, it'll prevent someone coming close to you cloaked.
EDIT: Also the ECM burst will more than likely jam someone who can warp cloaked, all ships that can fit a covops cloak have fairly low sensor strength.
↑↑ bar is just /quote ↑↑ [03:17:29] Trade Skills > Jesus believes in god [03:17:38] Mike C > believed* [03:17:48] Trade Skills > touche |
Michael McNeil
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Posted - 2010.03.04 22:48:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mike C Edited by: Mike C on 04/03/2010 22:17:28 AFK cloaked pilots DO NOT shut down systems. They do not do anything at all. It is you who decides not to use a system. Here is something you can do:
A) Fit ECM to your hulk. BAM! B) Fit an ECM burst to your hulk, it'll prevent someone coming close to you cloaked.
EDIT: Also the ECM burst will more than likely jam someone who can warp cloaked, all ships that can fit a covops cloak have fairly low sensor strength.
i wonder why you are so against removing AFK cloakers from the field? are you one? do you use this tatic? if so, then you are just wanting a I WIN button. Either be activly playing or be dead.
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Asheru
Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.03.05 01:23:00 -
[53]
ECM on a hulk?
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2010.03.05 02:44:00 -
[54]
If they nerf the cloak people will just make ultra deep safes and sit there in noob ships. The effect will be the same. Strange guy in local. Can't find his ship. What is that guy doing? Is he even here?
Half of the guys you think are cloaking asleep probably aren't cloaking anyway.
Shhhh. Don't tell anyone your idea to totally screw blockade runners and stealth bombers will have its intent worked around in about 1 second.
Miners will always be intimidated because miners are easily intimidated.
Carebearing in EVE is a life of shame and fear. No nerf is going to change that. "Aghast the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is." |
Cedims
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Posted - 2010.03.05 02:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Asheru
Originally by: Cedims
Originally by: Asheru Please, elaborate if you disagree.
There simply is nothing TO "fix" with the cloak. It IS itself the balance countering scanning/probes, and is doing it very well.
Disabling auto-repeat on cloaks wouldn't change any of the mechanics. I wouldn't even consider it a nerf. You still wouldn't be probe-able while cloaked. If you are indeed at your keyboard actively engaged in playing the game, you can just click your cloak again. If you are not at your keyboard when your cloak drops, you can be probed out until you wake up and press the button again.
How would this change be unfair to cloakers?
Well, simply because the suggestion sucks for cloakers. I fly cloaks a lot, and yes, at times, when nothing is particularily happening (waiting for folks to travel, etc), which is a part of EVE, I do trading or managing stuff WHILE cloaked, if in systems without stations, and for extended periods. So because you do not want to "align the ship", I should have to "tap the cloak", in your place? Yes, I think ones (YOURS) convenience, is anothers (MINE) inconvience. And so yes, it IS "unfair" to cloakers.
There is nothing wrong with the cloaking!
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Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari Gear Monkeys
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Posted - 2010.03.05 05:35:00 -
[56]
There should be a module that does this, I mean just cause you can't see the ship doesn't mean it's not there that's how bats see, sonar.
Send out a signal (sound in space?) signal reflects off cloaked ship within certain distance, module gives you general position of the cloaked target.
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Zedic
Amarr Universalis Imperium
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Posted - 2010.03.05 05:38:00 -
[57]
No just no.
For the love of Christ - this is not Farmville.
Not In My Eve.
Originally by: Akita T "It's not that power corrupts... it's that the corrupt seek power."
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Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari Gear Monkeys
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Posted - 2010.03.05 05:41:00 -
[58]
Or how about a cloak overload? Where if the cloaking device has been active for a certain amount of time an electric burst effect would appear around the ship and a beacon would appear on the overview that anyone could lock on to and warp to for like 30 seconds, ship would become immobile for 30 seconds too.
The time limit would probably be long, like 1 or 2 hours.
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Zedic
Amarr Universalis Imperium
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Posted - 2010.03.05 05:56:00 -
[59]
No.
Sorry if I'm being abrasive about this issue.
I firmly believe that it's bad, bad BAD to introduce game mechanics that substitute a for lack of innovation, cooperation, willingness to risk, and courage on the part of the players.
I have a personal history with actual cloaking tactics. My old Alliance, (LV not TNT) organized a team of covert pilots from several corps and alliances in the Southern Coalition, We were the Sneaky Bastards. We followed enemy fleets, set up warp in points, gathered intel, observed traffic in target systems - everything that a covert pilot network should do. We got kills too, lots of them (though we lost that war, but meh, everything that has a beginning, has an end) by being smart, organized covert pilots. We were certainly not immune to counter attack, and the groups we stalked eventually adapted to us and were able to catch a few of us.
The point I'm trying to make is that each group of humans used available game mechanics in efforts to further their groups' objectives. Neither group tried to introduce a game mechanic such as a timer, or a fancy new probe, that would basically invalidate the Covert Pilot. All such proposals are based on an assumption that these AFK cloakers are actually AFK, and / or actually cloaked. Play the game, be smart, work hard towards combat capability, and lets stop trying to force rule changes that don't actually right something that's wrong or broken but only make it "easier" for one group because they aren't bothering with tactics or intelligent solutions and insisting other player's game play should change because of our perception of what that is.
Originally by: Akita T "It's not that power corrupts... it's that the corrupt seek power."
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Prince Spiderman
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Posted - 2010.03.05 06:52:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Prince Spiderman on 05/03/2010 06:51:55 "The cloak is my castle!"
This idea is senseless. If someone is cloaked it just will tell you that he's: A] simply afk B] watching you or someone else for a reason C] beeing here for something different
Probing the area of the cloaker is just waste of time. Totally waste of time. It tells you nothing special. It will not help you to do something special. It will not give you any useful intell for preparing for something special.
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