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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.05 14:02:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 05/03/2010 08:27:25 Some of the numbers look a bit off. Do Drakes really cost 181m isk to build and sell for 197m?
Also, ROI might be a useful measure of profitability for some items with high build cost and more expensive blueprints. Calculate as
Profit for x days of production / (Cost of materials for x days of production + Cost of BPO) for x = 7 and x = 30 (longest allowed build job).
That's sort of in there and the numbers are correct too, they just represented something other than what you thought.
I added some clarification at the top. Please let me know what you think.
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.05 15:33:00 -
[62]
And it's available under a proper url as http://eve-profits.com/list now.
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.07 07:10:00 -
[63]
Spent most of the weekend optimizing it for performance (at least 5 times faster than before now), then added some explanation, links, styling and a little info blurb so you know how fresh the prices are.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.07 12:50:00 -
[64]
Sorting by daily profit appears to be using absolute value, so there are negative profit items next to the positive profit items.
The table initially loads correctly, only subsequent sorting is bugged. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.07 13:14:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Sorting by daily profit appears to be using absolute value, so there are negative profit items next to the positive profit items.
The table initially loads correctly, only subsequent sorting is bugged.
Thanks for the reminder. This works correctly on all fields now. :)
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.07 15:12:00 -
[66]
Suggested additional column, if you can get the data for it: # of competing sell orders updated in the last 24 hours at market hub of choice. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.07 17:08:00 -
[67]
I cannot feasibly do that myself, but I can suggest it to the EVE-Metrics people and see what they think. Thanks for the idea.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.08 08:37:00 -
[68]
Related question: why are the sell & buy volume columns blank for nearly every item, and where they are, how is 'excess' being calculated? --- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.08 08:50:00 -
[69]
Market volume is sadly a data that EVE-Metrics does not provide in the API. A feature request for that is pending.
As for excess, please click the "explanations" link on the page, it explains that. While at it, if you haven't clicked that yet, despite having questions, why did you not? I ask so i can see if i can lead people more easily to clicking on that.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.08 09:54:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Xenofur Market volume is sadly a data that EVE-Metrics does not provide in the API. A feature request for that is pending.
Then what's the source for the data in these columns - are they just the total # of units on sell orders / buy orders in The Forge? Also, I'd suggest putting them next to each other.
Quote: As for excess, please click the "explanations" link on the page, it explains that.
It's highly visible, but frankly it doesn't do a very good job at explaining how things are being calculated. A page with explicit formulas would be preferable to trying to work out exactly what you mean by things like 'unit value of a slot-day'.
Even then, I'd say that 'excess' as you define it is not very intuitive. How about simply (# you can sell per day) / (# produced per slot-day)
instead?
The red / green / yellow(?) bars should be made a bit wider (can you set them as the background of the cells they're in?) and you should include a few annotated examples somewhere - this would make it much easier for people to learn to read them correctly.
I think the table would be clearer if the build cost columns showed single unit costs, rather than daily batch costs. That would allow people to directly compare the values on the page to prices they can see on the market, and with which they may already be familiar. I would suggest replacing DTP with ROI - you can sell the blueprint at any time and usually emerge with a profit.
--- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.08 10:43:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Then what's the source for the data in these columns - are they just the total # of units on sell orders / buy orders in The Forge? Also, I'd suggest putting them next to each other.
Sorry for forgetting to mention that. I am sourcing both eve-central and eve-metrics, as their data sets are not exactly the same and sometimes eve-central data is more fresh. In cases where eve-central data is more fresh the market volumes are available. On the other hand, using that source is also more expensive, computationally.
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro It's highly visible, but frankly it doesn't do a very good job at explaining how things are being calculated. A page with explicit formulas would be preferable to trying to work out exactly what you mean by things like 'unit value of a slot-day'.
Even then, I'd say that 'excess' as you define it is not very intuitive. How about simply (# you can sell per day) / (# produced per slot-day)
instead?
The red / green / yellow(?) bars should be made a bit wider (can you set them as the background of the cells they're in?) and you should include a few annotated examples somewhere - this would make it much easier for people to learn to read them correctly.
I think the table would be clearer if the build cost columns showed single unit costs, rather than daily batch costs. That would allow people to directly compare the values on the page to prices they can see on the market, and with which they may already be familiar. I would suggest replacing DTP with ROI - you can sell the blueprint at any time and usually emerge with a profit.
Thanks for explaining, this is very valuable information to me. I'll see about adding concise formulas where i can. Incidentally, that is exactly how excess is calculated. You may also want to click on the feedback tab on the right. Replacing excess with more intuitive data is already planned. :)
As for the bars: I will make them one pixel higher each. I did not consider that not everyone has as acute vision as i have. I do not want to make them too big though, as they'd either have to make the manufacture cost more difficult to read, or would increase the table size too much.
As for the explanations: I'll be adding small screenshot extracts in front of each one to make it more easy to see what they talk about.
As for prices: You can hover your mouse over the fields in any browser but the ingame browser and a popup will show the icon price. Personally I am at the point where i trust the values given and only do spot checks when i suspect something is wrong. I am thinking about making this a toggle-able option, the current setting of which would be saved into the user's session, with per-item prices being the default.
Re DTP -> ROI, good point, didn't think about that and will do.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.08 11:09:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Xenofur In cases where eve-central data is more fresh the market volumes are available.
As data for both sites is being updated all the time, this is not a very sensible thing to do; both sites will have data that is relatively fresh, even if eve-central's data is slightly older. I'd suggest using the eve-central data as long as it's below a certain age threshold, e.g. 1hr. There's not much point having 2 columns that are empty nearly all the time.
One way of gauging the level of competition for each item would be to look at the # of sell orders on eve central that meet 3 conditions:
1. The order is in the bottom 5% of sell orders by price. 2. The order is in the top 25% of sell orders by volume. 3. The order expires within 24 hours of the common order thresholds, i.e. very nearly 90 days / 30 days / 1 week / 1 day from the present time, showing that it has been updated recently.
--- 34.4:1 mineral compression |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.08 11:30:00 -
[73]
The problem is that data for both sites isn't updated all the time. I can source eve-central only once per day, as there's no feasible way of keeping the computational expense down otherwise. I can look however in using that one time to at least calculate estimates and keep them for the day. No promises though.
As for your other suggestions, i forwarded them and we'll see what comes of it. :)
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Berenices Herculina
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.03.08 11:48:00 -
[74]
Good work.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2010.03.08 11:50:00 -
[75]
Been using my own excel spreadsheet that does this for years, welcome to my world.
Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.08 11:54:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Berenices Herculina Good work.
Thanks.
Originally by: Celeste Coeval Been using my own excel spreadsheet that does this for years, welcome to my world.
My world consists of hitting an url once a day and being given this information for the entire market in less than a second. I have my doubts about an excel sheet being quite on the level there.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.08 12:47:00 -
[77]
end result is resellers will buy in jita and resell in the main hubs and even low sec to profitable areas Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.08 20:00:00 -
[78]
When looked with IE 8, it's super-mega-fanta slow scrolling. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.08 22:55:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Xenofur
Originally by: Celeste Coeval Been using my own excel spreadsheet that does this for years, welcome to my world.
My world consists of hitting an url once a day and being given this information for the entire market in less than a second. I have my doubts about an excel sheet being quite on the level there.
Underestimating application programming?
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha When looked with IE 8, it's super-mega-fanta slow scrolling.
Use normal browser. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.08 23:15:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Xenofur on 08/03/2010 23:16:20
Originally by: Tonto Auri Underestimating application programming?
I make my daily bread writing software and i know what it takes to do this, what Excel can do, and that it isn't close to being up to snuff to replicate what my software is doing here. The computational expense is simply too big. In fact, until a few weeks ago when i managed to talk a while to Ix_Forres and get him to implement a crucial tool on EM, i never thought I'd be able to release something like this publicly.
In short: Even if it was feasible for Excel to do this, it would be way too slow.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha When looked with IE 8, it's super-mega-fanta slow scrolling.
Thanks for the hint, i never use it so i didn't notice. I have some JS going on that it might dislike, so I'll see if i can disable that for IE.
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Taua Roqa
Minmatar Toroidal Bum-Donuts
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Posted - 2010.03.09 00:00:00 -
[81]
eh, I'm still making isk :s
is this some kinda xenos paradox or algebraic proof of god stuff, 'cos i'm **** at maths.
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.09 00:13:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Taua Roqa eh, I'm still making isk :s
is this some kinda xenos paradox or algebraic proof of god stuff, 'cos i'm **** at maths.
Eh, what? You'd make it easier to understand and answer you by providing some sort of context what you are even referring to.
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.09 00:28:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha When looked with IE 8, it's super-mega-fanta slow scrolling.
And the fix for this is live.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.03.09 01:14:00 -
[84]
Could you switch to using standard quantifiers such as "M" for million, "B" for billion (1000M) and "T" for trillion (1000B)? I'm guessing "Mio" is vernacular for "Million"?
It may also be worth trimming prices to four or five significant digits. e.g.: instead of quoting a "daily profit" of 34,146,214 ISK, just quote 34.146M or 34.15M. Does anyone really live or die on 0.01% margins? Rounding to four or five significant digits would certainly help conserve horizontal space, in addition to making the numbers a little easier to read.
As a random example, you have Fullerene Intercalated Sheets with buy orders of 395,253,590.55, sell orders of 485,588,813.92 and manufacturing cost of 410,749,198.80. Based on those numbers, you could quote 395.25M / 485.59M / 410.75M ISK buy/sell/manufacture amounts and you'd be accurate to 0.01% margins (i.e.: only significant to people with BPs researched to about ME 2000).
In the meantime you've saved about 21 meaningless characters per row.
[Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES] |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.09 01:30:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Mara Rinn Could you switch to using standard quantifiers such as "M" for million, "B" for billion (1000M) and "T" for trillion (1000B)? I'm guessing "Mio" is vernacular for "Million"?
It may also be worth trimming prices to four or five significant digits. e.g.: instead of quoting a "daily profit" of 34,146,214 ISK, just quote 34.146M or 34.15M. Does anyone really live or die on 0.01% margins? Rounding to four or five significant digits would certainly help conserve horizontal space, in addition to making the numbers a little easier to read.
As a random example, you have Fullerene Intercalated Sheets with buy orders of 395,253,590.55, sell orders of 485,588,813.92 and manufacturing cost of 410,749,198.80. Based on those numbers, you could quote 395.25M / 485.59M / 410.75M ISK buy/sell/manufacture amounts and you'd be accurate to 0.01% margins (i.e.: only significant to people with BPs researched to about ME 2000).
In the meantime you've saved about 21 meaningless characters per row.
I tried that for a while, but I found it slowed me down when parsing lots of data visually. For example when sorted by margin, the items that would still give a huge per-day profit would stand out a lot more because they have that extra digit in length.
I'll see if i can make it an option though. :)
On further thought: I think i should just cut everything down to millions. At this scale anything below that is insignificant anyhow.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.09 02:11:00 -
[86]
This isnt going to destroy Jita you noob.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.03.09 02:49:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ghoest This isnt going to destroy Jita you noob.
Page 2 of this thread called and wanted it's outdated revelations back. :P
To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi: "If you try to destroy Jita, it will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
I'd really like to see this tool applied (separately) to each of the major regional hubs: Dodixie, Oursalaert, Rens, Hek and Amarr come to mind of course. Efficiency in the market will encourage people to blow up more ships since they'd become easier to replace, right?
[Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES] |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.09 08:34:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Use normal browser.
I have been a PHP programmer, I have FF, IE7 + 8, Chrome and others, even Netscape 4.7.
Because if you make a close and incompatible application (web or not), you are as bad as Microsoft is.
Quote:
I'd really like to see this tool applied (separately) to each of the major regional hubs: Dodixie, Oursalaert, Rens, Hek and Amarr come to mind of course. Efficiency in the market will encourage people to blow up more ships since they'd become easier to replace, right?
What it could potentially achieve is what happens with Forex: near optimized market with close to zero trending and thus very low margin that requires constant scalping to make a penny.
But EvE is not exactly as exploitable, in EvE there's not enough liquidity in the markets nor instant communication of value (like an electronic securities market like currencies or futures would be). Therefore some margin will still be present.
The most probable outcome is to make Jita sh!ttier, which finds me just happy. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.09 08:49:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Xenofur on 09/03/2010 08:53:08
Originally by: Mara Rinn
I'd really like to see this tool applied (separately) to each of the major regional hubs: Dodixie, Oursalaert, Rens, Hek and Amarr come to mind of course. Efficiency in the market will encourage people to blow up more ships since they'd become easier to replace, right?
I might do that after a few yeary or so, once i've seen how it affects Jita.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I have been a PHP programmer, I have FF, IE7 + 8, Chrome and others, even Netscape 4.7.
Because if you make a close and incompatible application (web or not), you are as bad as Microsoft is.
One reason why I mostly do web programming.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
What it could potentially achieve is what happens with Forex: near optimized market with close to zero trending and thus very low margin that requires constant scalping to make a penny.
The most probable outcome is to make Jita sh!ttier, which finds me just happy.
This is pretty much what I'm aiming at.
I realize it's impossible to completely destroy it. But I'd like to see it damaged to a point where it equalizes better with the rest of Eve.
Edit: In fact, I'm already seeing profit deprecation compared to when i launched this. I really need to get about charting this stuff.
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.09 11:15:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Xenofur on 09/03/2010 11:15:47 Alright, bunch of updates to the user interface today, taking into account many of the recent suggestions here. I'm hoping that it's a lot more intuitive and accessible now. :)
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